Small gun, the serious protection you need ...

[John Smith]

.410 buck (or a choice), .357/.38 ....

good obama blaster, criminal public servant controller, etc. Could stop
'em from stealing you SW radio, golf clubs, other guns, or save your
arse when you wake up to the conspiracy and the conspirators want you
silenced!

http://bondarmsusa.com/

(make sure you watch the video!)

Would even fit in the san fransicko boys' purses!

Regards,
JS

[de...@dudu.org]

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 16:29:19 -0700, John Smith <bit_b...@gmx.com>
wrote:

Fuck that. This is a much better weapon.

http://www.ruger.com/products/sp101/index.html

Five shots, better reload time, much more accurate.

[Padraigh ProAmerica]

Saw an ad for a .410 derringer. Kind of wonder what the recoil of the
sucka would be...

--
"Anyone who likes sausage and respects the law should not watch either
being made."-- Otto von Bismarck --

[BDK]

In article <tlo487po2f32t9m9c...@4ax.com>, de...@dudu.org
says...

Leave it to Johnny Kook to pick a POS like a Bond Arms 2 shot.

Dozens of better guns out there.

--
BDK- Top of the government shill heap for over 10 years running!

[Scout]

<de...@dudu.org> wrote in message
news:tlo487po2f32t9m9c...@4ax.com...

Which you get from one round of .410 triple aught buck (3" shell)

> better reload time

Really? You think you can reload the cylinder of that revolver faster than
you can fire the other barrel of that derringer?

> much more accurate.

I suspect the .410 would be suitably accurate for any reasonable self
defense range.

So unless you think you will have time to group your shots, The higher
accuracy is pretty much moot.

[Scout]

"BDK" <Con...@Worldcontrol.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.28ec32924...@news.giganews.com...

Depends on what you're after.

On a shot per shot basis, the .410 is going to deliver more to target.

effectively ten 30 caliber pellets to target in the time it takes to pull
the trigger twice.

Whereas the Ruger is going to take 5 trigger pulls, a reload, and than
another 5 trigger pulls.

That's not to say that one is a better gun than the other, but as in so much
it depends on what you're looking for it to do.

Also the .410 loading is generally reported to have a fairly high 1 shot
stop percentage, since you are usually effectively hitting the target
multiple times in 1 shot.

Based on reports and testing, the rounds that produce the best one shot
stops are those that produce a nice hydrostatic shock wave in the blood
pressure that effectively shuts down the brain for a period of time. Now
that's not to say they are going to stay down, only that they are going to
drop on the first shot and stay down for a bit. Shotguns do this quite
effectively since they tend to dump a large part of their energy to a broad
section of the body inducing such a hydrostatic shock. This, of course,
depends upon a reasonably direct impact to center mass.

So it all depends on your preferences, choices, and so on.

My biggest objection would be the weight of the piece which IMO makes it
less of a carry piece. On the other hand it's flat which again IMO makes it
easier to conceal than a revolver.

[de...@dudu.org]

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:30:19 -0400, "Scout"
<me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:

>
>
><de...@dudu.org> wrote in message
>news:tlo487po2f32t9m9c...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 16:29:19 -0700, John Smith <bit_b...@gmx.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>.410 buck (or a choice), .357/.38 ....
>>>
>>>good obama blaster, criminal public servant controller, etc. Could stop
>>>'em from stealing you SW radio, golf clubs, other guns, or save your
>>>arse when you wake up to the conspiracy and the conspirators want you
>>>silenced!
>>>
>>>http://bondarmsusa.com/
>>>
>>>(make sure you watch the video!)
>>>
>>>Would even fit in the san fransicko boys' purses!
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>JS
>>
>> Fuck that. This is a much better weapon.
>>
>> http://www.ruger.com/products/sp101/index.html
>>
>> Five shots,
>
>Which you get from one round of .410 triple aught buck (3" shell)

I can get 5 shots on target. And reload in about 2 seconds.

>
>> better reload time
>
>Really? You think you can reload the cylinder of that revolver faster than
>you can fire the other barrel of that derringer?

A derringer is an inaccurate piece of junk. Ruger makes an infinately
better gun.

>
>> much more accurate.
>
> I suspect the .410 would be suitably accurate for any reasonable self
>defense range.
>
>So unless you think you will have time to group your shots, The higher
>accuracy is pretty much moot.
>

.357 or 38 P+ hollowpoints at close range you only need one or two
anyway. The other 3 are extra. The SP101 is truly a remarkably
accurate gun for a snubby. I can shoot the same size groups with that
as I can with any handguns.

[John Smith]

He thinks he will be in a movie or a shooting range when all this takes
place ... you kill them with the first shot, you might have time enough
for the second shot, then you better be ducking for cover and grabbing
your backup and looking around for his partner(s.)

There is much to be prepared for, both before, during and AFTER the
situation ... fact is, the further they are from you, the more difficult
it may be to convince a jury that deadly force was valid ... the closer
they are to you, the more chance it will be your attacker who is talking
to the court, prosecutor and jury ... for your murder ... be prepared
and keep a cool head ... then, the mistakes you make might be minor
enough to handle easily ...

Regards,
JS


Regards,
JS

[John Smith]

Unless you are facing a completely green and incompetent attacker ...
the matter will be decided in those first two shots ... in the movies,
there are gun fights, teenie bobber gangsters like a lot of shooting ...
a real attacker knows what he wants, is professional and is going to
have it QUICKLY! ... most idiots are going to allow him into the "zone
of no recovery" before they even begin to react ... from there, five
bullets or a thousand and five will make damn little difference ... it
will be him pumping them into your dead corpse ...

Regards,
JS

[de...@dudu.org]

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:51:32 -0400, "Scout"
<me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:

>My biggest objection would be the weight of the piece which IMO makes it
>less of a carry piece. On the other hand it's flat which again IMO makes it
>easier to conceal than a revolver.
>

Would be an OK survival gun for your BOB. Would be somewhat useful
for taking small game but only at very close ranges as shot would
spread really fast.

[Harry Callahan]

John Smith <bit_b...@gmx.com> wrote in news:j5tma9$u8$1...@dont-email.me:

Fuck that ya pansy. 6.5" M-29 in a vertical shoulder holster. Extra speed
loaders on your belt.


--
"I know what you're thinking. Did he fire six shots or only five? Well, to
tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself.
But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world,
and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one
question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya punk?"

[RHF]

Evidently Bond Arms was advertising on the
Michael Savage {Savage Nation} Radio Show
http://www.michaelsavage.wnd.com/

Usually for a Women the 1st Shot is the Only Shot.

So a .410 Derringer with a Load of # 4 Buck Shot
would be more than enough to put any Attacker
in a Room 'down' with ~10 Pellets {~25 Cal} with
a 2"~3" wide shot pattern and 6"~12" of penetration.

Note : "00" Buck Shot is not recommend for up
close 'In-the-Room' Self-Defense.

~ RHF
.
.

[BDK]

In article <j5tr2o$ppt$1...@dont-email.me>,
me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net says...

I never understood the whole "weight" thing. A half pound or so more
than a lightweight gun never bothered my at all. I carried a S&W 28 6+
1/2" at work for 40 hours a week and they don't come a lot heavier than
that. Give me steel always. No plast...er polymer, for me.

[John Smith]

On 9/27/2011 7:59 PM, Harry Callahan wrote:
> John Smith<bit_b...@gmx.com> wrote in news:j5tma9$u8$1...@dont-email.me:
>
>> .410 buck (or a choice), .357/.38 ....
>>
>> good obama blaster, criminal public servant controller, etc. Could stop
>> 'em from stealing you SW radio, golf clubs, other guns, or save your
>> arse when you wake up to the conspiracy and the conspirators want you
>> silenced!
>>
>> http://bondarmsusa.com/
>>
>> (make sure you watch the video!)
>>
>> Would even fit in the san fransicko boys' purses!
>>
>> Regards,
>> JS
>
> Fuck that ya pansy. 6.5" M-29 in a vertical shoulder holster. Extra speed
> loaders on your belt.
>
>

LOL!!! Or, an old school Thompson in a violin case!

Regards,
JS

[Benj]

On Sep 27, 10:59 pm, Harry Callahan <4...@mag.num> wrote:

> Fuck that ya pansy. 6.5" M-29 in a vertical shoulder holster. Extra speed
> loaders on your belt.
>
> --
> "I know what you're thinking. Did he fire six shots or only five? Well, to
> tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself.
> But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world,
> and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one
> question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya punk?"

Well, do ya, punk?

Obviously the problem here is you bunch of penis envy guys are letting
a bunch of Hollywood liberals create your reality for you. And they
were all born without brains. (Say, doesn't that bad guy in the ad
attacking the blond in the car sort of look like the Governator?)

No, you DO NOT want a derringer. What, you are all a bunch of high
rolling gamblers? No, you DO NOT want a derringer that shoots .410
shotgun shells. A derringer is a gut gun. It can't be aimed at all.
even .410 kicks like a mule and you probably will have trouble hanging
on to the piece. Plus it's so small it essentially has NO barrel and
if that weren't bad enough, it's a LOT fatter than you think giving
you the "turtle in the pants" look if you have it in a pocket.

You clowns have been watching the Death Wish marathon too much. Only
an idiot would try to carry a .44 magnum like Dirty Harry. Given the
flame that shoots out plus the recoil you'd have a much better chance
of burning the bad guy alive than shooting him! Not to mention you'd
be deaf for a couple days if you shot it inside!

Turn off the TV and leave the theater and just go get a nice little .
380 double action pocket rocket. And then PRACTICE with it so that
when your life is on the line you actually can HIT something with it
besides the floor and ceiling! A nice stainless steel .38 revolver
can work too. No .357 or +P bullshit. You want to be EFFECTIVE (means
stay alive) not prove who has the biggest John Thomas. And Oh yeah, go
take an NRA safety course as soon as you get it before you hurt
yourself or someone else.

[Gray Guest]

Benj <bja...@iwaynet.net> wrote in news:4e629d22-fdfc-4846-9496-
6bc066...@u6g2000vbo.googlegroups.com:

Actually genius, I carry an S&W 908 8+1 single stack nine. I can keep all
of them in the kill ring of a B-27 target as fast as I can work the trigger
at 7 yards.

It's called a joke. I was mocking John Tiny Dick. Do I need to lend you a
quarter to buy a clue?

--
Words of wisdom

What does not kill you... probably didn't cause enough tissue damage.

[John Smith]

It's like DUH!

You don't want to aim, you might not even have time to aim, you want to
point and shoot and have some of those buckshot to hit its' target ...
once you get the upper edge, have your safe spot to defend, you can pull
out the backup and take time ... that derringer is one serious piece of
shootin' power ... just shoot yourself in the little finger, or little
toe to check it out ... but I would use the barrel with the .357/.38 ...
the buckshot might take off your whole hand!

Regards,
JS

[John Smith]

On 9/27/2011 11:50 PM, Gray Guest wrote:

> ...

> Actually genius, I carry an S&W 908 8+1 single stack nine. I can keep all
> of them in the kill ring of a B-27 target as fast as I can work the trigger
> at 7 yards.
>
> It's called a joke. I was mocking John Tiny Dick. Do I need to lend you a
> quarter to buy a clue?
>

Probably good to point out that professionals, govt. terminators, pay
for kill, etc. use a .22 - .24 cal.

But then, the worst kill I ever seen was with a chain ... I remember
thinking at the time, "I'd have preferred to have been killed with a
bullet, or two ..."

Regards,
JS

[RHF]

On Sep 27, 10:39 pm, Benj <bjac...@iwaynet.net> wrote:
> On Sep 27, 10:59 pm, Harry Callahan <4...@mag.num> wrote:
>
> > Fuck that ya pansy. 6.5" M-29 in a vertical shoulder holster. Extra speed
> > loaders on your belt.
>
> > --
> > "I know what you're thinking. Did he fire six shots or only five? Well, to
> > tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself.
> > But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world,
> > and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one
> > question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya punk?"
>
> Well, do ya, punk?
>
> Obviously the problem here is you bunch of penis envy guys are letting
> a bunch of Hollywood liberals create your reality for you. And they
> were all born without brains. (Say, doesn't that bad guy in the ad
> attacking the blond in the car sort of look like the Governator?)
>
> No, you DO NOT want a derringer. What, you are all a bunch of high
> rolling gamblers? No, you DO NOT want a derringer that shoots .410
> shotgun shells.

- A derringer is a gut gun.

That's right 'in-a-room' at 2~3 Yards/Metres : It's
all about a 'gut' {body} shot and bring them 'down'
with one shot. Take the Gun in both hands; get
down on one-knee; point the barrel at their 'guts';
and pull the trigger.

and keep pulling the trigger to stay alive ~ RHF

.
> It can't be aimed at all.
> even .410 kicks like a mule and you probably will have trouble hanging
> on to the piece. Plus it's so small it essentially has NO barrel and
> if that weren't bad enough, it's a LOT fatter than you think giving
> you the "turtle in the pants" look if you have it in a pocket.
>
> You clowns have been watching the Death Wish marathon too much. Only
> an idiot would try to carry a .44 magnum like Dirty Harry. Given the
> flame that shoots out plus the recoil you'd have a much better chance
> of burning the bad guy alive than shooting him! Not to mention you'd
> be deaf for a couple days if you shot it inside!
>
> Turn off the TV and leave the theater and just go get a nice little .
> 380 double action pocket rocket. And then PRACTICE with it so that
> when your life is on the line you actually can HIT something with it
> besides the floor and ceiling!  A nice stainless steel .38 revolver
> can work too. No .357 or +P bullshit. You want to be EFFECTIVE (means
> stay alive) not prove who has the biggest John Thomas. And Oh yeah, go
> take an NRA safety course as soon as you get it before you hurt
> yourself or someone else.

-nah- Here Comes Da Judge !
http://www.gunblast.com/Taurus-Judge.htm
.
In-a-Room -if- Your 1st Shot Don't Get Them {RIP}
-load-it-with-this-3x12-death-&-dismember-shell-
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/12/03/winchester-pdx1-self-defense-shotshell-ammo/
.
-bigger-is-bigger- Da Raging Judge M-A-G-N-U-M !
http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/raging_judge_magnum-tfb-tm.jpg
-wrt- Taurus’s new Raging Judge Magnum
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/09/tauruss-new-raging-judge-magnum/
-shotgun- -shotgun- -shotgun- -shotgun-
http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionImages/products/shotshell/PD_PDX1-410_IL_Disperse.jpg
.
.

[Padraigh ProAmerica]

Might as well spend the bucks and get a Browning Hi-Power.

[Thomas Heger]

Am 28.09.2011 01:29, schrieb John Smith:
> .410 buck (or a choice), .357/.38 ....
>
> good obama blaster, criminal public servant controller, etc. Could stop
> 'em from stealing you SW radio, golf clubs, other guns, or save your
> arse when you wake up to the conspiracy and the conspirators want you
> silenced!
>

Civil war in the US would be really terrible. (And I have doubt, that
such handguns would be the weapons of choice.)

Better would be to prevent havoc.

I think, that violence isn't the right way. People would better try to
reacquire control about all elements of the society: the communities,
politics, education, health-care, nutrition, transportation, military
and even entertainment.

In all these fields, there are people involved, that do not want their
country destroyed. But there are also 'bad guys', that like misery,
violence, sickness and dirt.

If you want nicer people, you had to clean your (personal!) environment,
remove the rubble, overpaint the graffiti, disallow drug trafficking,
rethink education, watch less tv, cook your own food, walk, smile - but
don't carry a gun around.

To regain control you need to start with local affairs and reorganise,
what is in reach. Do not let any dubious character have any influence on
any public office. To identify such persons is difficult, but some
characteristics you certainly don't want to have at - say - a teacher.
For example membership in any sort of 'secret society' is definitely
not acceptable or massive tattoos, drug consume, sexual disorder, known
violence or extremistic political opinions.

Such persons are generally a threat to more 'usual' people, because they
are too boring for their sick brains.


TH

[RHF]

On Sep 28, 9:48 am, Thomas Heger <ttt_...@web.de> wrote:
> Am 28.09.2011 01:29, schrieb John Smith:> .410 buck (or a choice), .357/.38 ....
>
> > good obama blaster, criminal public servant controller, etc. Could stop
> > 'em from stealing you SW radio, golf clubs, other guns, or save your
> > arse when you wake up to the conspiracy and the conspirators want you
> > silenced!
>
> Civil war in the US would be really terrible. (And I have doubt, that
> such handguns would be the weapons of choice.)
>
> Better would be to prevent havoc.
>
> I think, that violence isn't the right way. People would better try to
> reacquire control about all elements of the society: the communities,
> politics, education, health-care, nutrition, transportation, military
> and even entertainment.
>
> In all these fields, there are people involved, that do not want their
> country destroyed.

- But there are also 'bad guys', that like
- misery, violence, sickness and dirt.

Anarchy + Violence + Revolution = Obama-U-Nism©
-obama-bots- -obama-political-cadre- -obama-stasi-
.
Obama-Regime Agent* Recommends Suspending
Congressional Elections for the Next Couple of Years
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.shortwave/msg/d0e8ffa087b4fdaf
* Democrat North Carolina Governor Beverly Perdue
.
Prez-A-Duntz "BO" {Obama-Regime}
Launches Attack Watch .Com !
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.shortwave/msg/2e0c96befa3461e7
.
*Just*Say*NO*To*Violence*!*
The "Renewing American Spring" Is Coming...
In The Fall of 2012 [6th NOV] -election-day-
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/18/maxine-waters_n_930712.html
.
May soon to be former us prez-a-duntz Obama
live a long and prosperous life as an "EX"
Prez-A-Duntz - Amen ~ RHF
.

[RD Sandman]

BDK <Con...@Worldcontrol.com> wrote in
news:MPG.28ec32924...@news.giganews.com:

Than an SP-101? Only if you need to spray. If you can hit what you
shoot at (and an SP-101 will do that very well at self defense distances)
that gun is fine.

--
Sleep well tonight,

RD (The Sandman)

WINE - Does not make you FAT....it makes you LEAN....
..against tables, chairs, floors, walls and ugly people...

[RD Sandman]

"Scout" <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote in
news:j5tr2o$ppt$1...@dont-email.me:

A .410 handgun round contains 8 or 9 pellets if it is a #4 shot. It
contains 3 pellets if it is 000 which is approximately .36 caliber. A
12ga shoots about 9 pellets in 00.

> Whereas the Ruger is going to take 5 trigger pulls, a reload, and than
> another 5 trigger pulls.

Nope. Go back and revisit the .410 load fired by a Judge.

> That's not to say that one is a better gun than the other, but as in
> so much it depends on what you're looking for it to do.
>
> Also the .410 loading is generally reported to have a fairly high 1
> shot stop percentage, since you are usually effectively hitting the
> target multiple times in 1 shot.

Three, if all impact and you are shooting 000 buck. You need to fire
both barrels in a Bond 2 shot to equal the number of rounds in an SP-101.

> Based on reports and testing, the rounds that produce the best one
> shot stops are those that produce a nice hydrostatic shock wave in the
> blood pressure that effectively shuts down the brain for a period of
> time. Now that's not to say they are going to stay down, only that
> they are going to drop on the first shot and stay down for a bit.
> Shotguns do this quite effectively since they tend to dump a large
> part of their energy to a broad section of the body inducing such a
> hydrostatic shock. This, of course, depends upon a reasonably direct
> impact to center mass.
>
> So it all depends on your preferences, choices, and so on.

This is true.

> My biggest objection would be the weight of the piece which IMO makes
> it less of a carry piece. On the other hand it's flat which again IMO
> makes it easier to conceal than a revolver.

True with the Bond derringer, not so with a Taurus Judge or the S&W.

[RD Sandman]

John Smith <bit_b...@gmx.com> wrote in

news:j5tt4e$2q7$1...@dont-email.me:

The average self defense scenario follows the Rule of Three. Three
shots, three yards, three seconds.

[RD Sandman]

John Smith <bit_b...@gmx.com> wrote in

news:j5u5ta$dul$1...@dont-email.me:

Tried that.....the damn bow and rosin keep getting in the way.

[Gray Guest]

Thomas Heger <ttt...@web.de> wrote in news:9eh1fuFakeU1
@mid.individual.net:

The resort to violence however is sometimes thrust upon people. The evil,
the criminal and the aggressor has their own aganda. No amount of
conciliation can deter them, only answering kind with kind.

You are refered to the 1930s for an example of wooly headed peace with
honor stupidity and where it led. Had Europe stood up to Hitler any time
between 1936 and 1938 the conflagaration of 1939 to 1945 could have been
avoided.

Sometimes a small amount of preemptive violence is preferable to large
amounts of avoidable violence.

[John Smith]

On 9/28/2011 2:05 PM, Gray Guest wrote:

> ...

> The resort to violence however is sometimes thrust upon people. The evil,
> the criminal and the aggressor has their own aganda. No amount of
> conciliation can deter them, only answering kind with kind.
>
> You are refered to the 1930s for an example of wooly headed peace with
> honor stupidity and where it led. Had Europe stood up to Hitler any time
> between 1936 and 1938 the conflagaration of 1939 to 1945 could have been
> avoided.
>
> Sometimes a small amount of preemptive violence is preferable to large
> amounts of avoidable violence.
>

Yes, at some point, when "the rich" have stolen and own everything, and
a new person shows up and is told, "Sorry, no homes left, no food left,
no jobs, sorry -- you can't pay for medical care -- so you are going to
have to go off and die, and no opportunity for you to have a life or
family", that person is going to know that "all his stuff" has been
stolen, you know, the "God given stuff" -- such as the resources of the
planet gifted him by God, and of course his God given rights ...

I would say, at that time, just like Sampson (well, or John the
Baptist), he is going to have to grab up the jawbone of an ass and kill
as many rich as necessary and anyway necessary.

... just sayin' ... but, sure looks to me like some of those people are
"happening" today!

Regards,
JS

[John Smith]

I'd say, "Close enough for government work."

Regards,
JS

[RD Sandman]

John Smith <bit_b...@gmx.com> wrote in news:j608pb$mk6$2...@dont-email.me:

As would I. ;)

[John Smith]

On 9/28/2011 4:00 PM, RD Sandman wrote:
> John Smith<bit_b...@gmx.com> wrote in news:j608pb$mk6$2...@dont-email.me:

Well, this is over simplified.

There are those times when the attacker is red faced, acting like a
lunatic, cussing/shouting/threatening his weapon carried exposed for all
to see ... but then there are those times when the attacker is either a
real nut case, or is feigning "friendly" -- grinning -- speaking nicely,
holding his weapon in a concealed manner -- making his approach slowly,
and, every possible variation in between those extremes ...

I'd much rather have the first, easy to defend your actions from and the
intent and NECESSITY of your actions, you are taking, are very clear to
any witnesses.

The second is the stuff that law and order movies are made from and
which make lawyers and attorneys rich -- and end up locking away
innocent men.

A backup length of chain constructed out of 5/16 - 3/8 stock in your
pocket, or other physical weapon gives one a lot of leeway and options
for those "sticky times", those times when you want to begin your
defense in a "gentle" manner, and carrying a baseball bat with you is
just too clumsy.

Like you stated and demonstrated with knowledge of self defense, it is
good to have all these things thought over, to know the limits, and when
those limits are being overstepped, to even have had some good
instructions/training along the way, BEFORE YOU NEED IT ...

But, this is for everyone to decide for themselves ... too often you
don't get warning and you just have to "wing it", if you have not
thought it out well -- this is when you can make mistakes which end up
with you dead, or serving a prison sentence because of some ignorant and
pansy jury.

I do know this, tomorrows paper is likely to carry news of the death of
someone who could have benefited from having a weapon, having training,
having been prepared, having had options ... and the city is full of
those who will laugh at me even pointing this out.

Ask any cop on the street, who will level with you, you are responsible
for your own protection and safety ... he/she is just their to find your
attacker/murderer ... if that is good enough for you, don't even sweat
taking responsibility for yourself, your wife, your children, etc. --
just let the cops find 'em ... that'll fix the dirty perps!

Regards,
JS

[Scout]

<de...@dudu.org> wrote in message
news:gds4879tl5fhecdps...@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:30:19 -0400, "Scout"
> <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>><de...@dudu.org> wrote in message
>>news:tlo487po2f32t9m9c...@4ax.com...
>>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 16:29:19 -0700, John Smith <bit_b...@gmx.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>.410 buck (or a choice), .357/.38 ....
>>>>
>>>>good obama blaster, criminal public servant controller, etc. Could stop
>>>>'em from stealing you SW radio, golf clubs, other guns, or save your
>>>>arse when you wake up to the conspiracy and the conspirators want you
>>>>silenced!
>>>>
>>>>http://bondarmsusa.com/
>>>>
>>>>(make sure you watch the video!)
>>>>
>>>>Would even fit in the san fransicko boys' purses!
>>>>
>>>>Regards,
>>>>JS
>>>
>>> Fuck that. This is a much better weapon.
>>>
>>> http://www.ruger.com/products/sp101/index.html
>>>
>>> Five shots,
>>
>>Which you get from one round of .410 triple aught buck (3" shell)
>
> I can get 5 shots on target. And reload in about 2 seconds.

Get, the .410 can do the same thing in about 50ms, and do it again 50ms
later.

>>
>>> better reload time
>>
>>Really? You think you can reload the cylinder of that revolver faster than
>>you can fire the other barrel of that derringer?
>
> A derringer is an inaccurate piece of junk. Ruger makes an infinately
> better gun.

How accurate do you need to be at a typical distance of under 15 feet?

>>> much more accurate.
>>
>> I suspect the .410 would be suitably accurate for any reasonable self
>>defense range.
>>
>>So unless you think you will have time to group your shots, The higher
>>accuracy is pretty much moot.
>>
> .357 or 38 P+ hollowpoints at close range you only need one or two
> anyway.

At close rates the typical .410 takes only one.

> The other 3 are extra.

Then they really aren't relevant.

> The SP101 is truly a remarkably
> accurate gun for a snubby.

Which means exactly nothing at close quarters combat since extreme accuracy
isn't a significant factor since you don't take the time to aim properly
anyway.

> I can shoot the same size groups with that
> as I can with any handguns.

Sure....do you suppose your attacker is going to wait until you get in
position, fix your stance, and line up your sights?

[Scout]

<de...@dudu.org> wrote in message
news:fot4875jdm4n7av3h...@4ax.com...

Actually, not so much. Typical grouping is under 4" inside of 21 feet.

So if you are reasonably on target, you're going to be putting five .30
caliber rounds into them with the first trigger pull. (assuming triple aught
and a 3" .410 shell)

That's usually a show stopper as far as the criminal goes.

[Scout]

"RD Sandman" <rdsandman@comcast[remove].net> wrote in message
news:Xns9F6E8EBD8...@216.196.121.131...

> John Smith <bit_b...@gmx.com> wrote in
> news:j5u5ta$dul$1...@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 9/27/2011 7:59 PM, Harry Callahan wrote:
>>> John Smith<bit_b...@gmx.com> wrote in
>>> news:j5tma9$u8$1...@dont-email.me:
>>>
>>>> .410 buck (or a choice), .357/.38 ....
>>>>
>>>> good obama blaster, criminal public servant controller, etc. Could
>>>> stop 'em from stealing you SW radio, golf clubs, other guns, or save
>>>> your arse when you wake up to the conspiracy and the conspirators
>>>> want you silenced!
>>>>
>>>> http://bondarmsusa.com/
>>>>
>>>> (make sure you watch the video!)
>>>>
>>>> Would even fit in the san fransicko boys' purses!
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> JS
>>>
>>> Fuck that ya pansy. 6.5" M-29 in a vertical shoulder holster. Extra
>>> speed loaders on your belt.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> LOL!!! Or, an old school Thompson in a violin case!
>>
>> Regards,
>> JS
>>
>>
>
> Tried that.....the damn bow and rosin keep getting in the way.

Well, if you took out the violin you wouldn't need those things either.

[John Smith]

Do you realize you sound very negative here? ROFLOL!

Regards,
JS

[Scout]

"BDK" <Con...@Worldcontrol.com> wrote in message

news:MPG.28ec5a5d8...@news.giganews.com...

All depends on the manner of carry. Weight can be a factor.

[RD Sandman]

John Smith <bit_b...@gmx.com> wrote in

news:j60au5$92m$1...@dont-email.me:

If you mean the "rule of three" yes, but then most averages are, aren't
they.

> There are those times when the attacker is red faced, acting like a
> lunatic, cussing/shouting/threatening his weapon carried exposed for
> all to see ... but then there are those times when the attacker is
> either a real nut case, or is feigning "friendly" -- grinning --
> speaking nicely, holding his weapon in a concealed manner -- making
> his approach slowly, and, every possible variation in between those
> extremes ...

Yep. Most would be in between those scenarios....like a robbery going
bad or a carjacking.

> I'd much rather have the first, easy to defend your actions from and
> the intent and NECESSITY of your actions, you are taking, are very
> clear to any witnesses.
>
> The second is the stuff that law and order movies are made from and
> which make lawyers and attorneys rich -- and end up locking away
> innocent men.

Not as much if the "reasonable person" syndrome is in play and whether
the state holds self defense to be an 'active' or 'passive' defense in
court.

> A backup length of chain constructed out of 5/16 - 3/8 stock in your
> pocket, or other physical weapon gives one a lot of leeway and options
> for those "sticky times", those times when you want to begin your
> defense in a "gentle" manner, and carrying a baseball bat with you is
> just too clumsy.

Yes, but a length of chain is only good in certain scenarios and is a
lousy tradoff against a .357.

> Like you stated and demonstrated with knowledge of self defense, it is
> good to have all these things thought over, to know the limits, and
> when those limits are being overstepped, to even have had some good
> instructions/training along the way, BEFORE YOU NEED IT ...

Absolutely.

> But, this is for everyone to decide for themselves ... too often you
> don't get warning and you just have to "wing it", if you have not
> thought it out well -- this is when you can make mistakes which end up
> with you dead, or serving a prison sentence because of some ignorant
> and pansy jury.

If you decide to carry a firearm, you need to already have a very good
idea of how dear you hold life other than your own. If you would
hesitate to pull the trigger when necessary or would require a lot of
study of your navel on a case by case basis.....don't carry a gun.

> I do know this, tomorrows paper is likely to carry news of the death
> of someone who could have benefited from having a weapon, having
> training, having been prepared, having had options ... and the city is
> full of those who will laugh at me even pointing this out.

Many peoole simply don't even consider it....at least not a serious
consideration....

> Ask any cop on the street, who will level with you,

Most will...depending on how they are approached.

you are
> responsible for your own protection and safety ... he/she is just
> their to find your attacker/murderer ... if that is good enough for
> you, don't even sweat taking responsibility for yourself, your wife,
> your children, etc. -- just let the cops find 'em ... that'll fix the
> dirty perps!

Too many people think that the police are there to protect them. Not
just as members of society but individually. They aren't.

[RD Sandman]

"Scout" <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote in
news:j60b8o$b72$1...@dont-email.me:

If one still has control of it after the first BANG!!!

[John Smith]

I can remember my first duck hunt, my father brought along my
grandfathers ancient double barreled 10ga. In my enthusiasm, I pulled
back both triggers ... totally busted up my pride, taught me to seat
such a weapon FIRMLY into my shoulder, and forced an immediate 180 on me
(gramps didn't believe in much of a rubber butt plate either!) ...
barely left me standing ... hey, I just claim it was being young and
thin ... well, and stupid, you can't over look stupid ... I had been
warned ...

Regards,
JS

[Scout]

"RD Sandman" <rdsandman@comcast[remove].net> wrote in message

news:Xns9F6E8E03...@216.196.121.131...

That's about right, the problem is you lose space because the pellets are
staggered. Thus a lot of the shell capacity is empty air.

> It
> contains 3 pellets if it is 000 which is approximately .36 caliber.

Maybe a few brands, but if you look around even in 2.5" you can get 4
pellets.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=533166

and in 3" (which I believe I mentioned somewhere) you get 5 pellets.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=170759

and .36 matches up nicely with the .357 caliber of the .38 and .357.

> A
> 12ga shoots about 9 pellets in 00.

Again, with the 12, you lose capacity because the pellets are staggered.

In the .410 they are neatly lined up, making maximum use of the available
space.

Use a buffered shot and you will get a nice tight group at close ranges.

>> Whereas the Ruger is going to take 5 trigger pulls, a reload, and than
>> another 5 trigger pulls.
>
> Nope. Go back and revisit the .410 load fired by a Judge.

Are you talking the regular Judge or the 3" Judge?

One gives you 4 pellets of triple aught, the other gives you 5.

The Bondarm's Century 2000 derringer, the gun under discussion, accepts up
to a 3" .410 shell.

Hence the 5 pellets discussed.

Of course, you could also load in a .410 with 5 pellets of 0000 buck
(0.375). Of course, you're probably going to need to mail order those, and I
think only a few manufacturers even make them.

:-)

>> That's not to say that one is a better gun than the other, but as in
>> so much it depends on what you're looking for it to do.
>>
>> Also the .410 loading is generally reported to have a fairly high 1
>> shot stop percentage, since you are usually effectively hitting the
>> target multiple times in 1 shot.
>
> Three, if all impact and you are shooting 000 buck.

Actually even if more than 1 hit, you will still be hitting the target
multiple times. :-)

However, if that's the case, odds are you didn't hit much of consequence
unless you're talking the head.

> You need to fire
> both barrels in a Bond 2 shot to equal the number of rounds in an SP-101.

Uh, an SP-101 in .38/.357 only holds 5 rounds. That's equal to the number of
pellets of triple or quad aught buck in a 3" shell.

So you would have to fire until empty, reload, and then empty again, your
SP101 to get an equal number of lead pieces headed downrange to match those
produced by 2 pulls of the Bond's trigger.

:-)

>> Based on reports and testing, the rounds that produce the best one
>> shot stops are those that produce a nice hydrostatic shock wave in the
>> blood pressure that effectively shuts down the brain for a period of
>> time. Now that's not to say they are going to stay down, only that
>> they are going to drop on the first shot and stay down for a bit.
>> Shotguns do this quite effectively since they tend to dump a large
>> part of their energy to a broad section of the body inducing such a
>> hydrostatic shock. This, of course, depends upon a reasonably direct
>> impact to center mass.
>>
>> So it all depends on your preferences, choices, and so on.
>
> This is true.
>
>> My biggest objection would be the weight of the piece which IMO makes
>> it less of a carry piece. On the other hand it's flat which again IMO
>> makes it easier to conceal than a revolver.
>
> True with the Bond derringer, not so with a Taurus Judge or the S&W.

Well, I wasn't intending this to be an in-depth review of all the
variations, only contesting Dudu's immediate and apparently arbitrary
dismissal of the Century 2000 as being unsuitable for self defense, and
challenging each of his talking points to establish that.

About the only point that was really valid was the accuracy issue, but at
self defense ranges a gun doesn't need to be particularly accurate hence my
noting it as pretty much a moot point.

[Scout]

"RD Sandman" <rdsandman@comcast[remove].net> wrote in message

news:Xns9F6EABB38...@216.196.121.131...

Hence the weight we were discussing earlier.

[Thomas Heger]

The armament of the American society is most likely the greatest
stumbling block for globalistic self-proclaimed fascistic elite.

But these arms are not to be used, because in a real fight, the
professionals are better off than you with a handgun.

But people could 'take it back'. I mean 'the real life', the
communities, local affairs, education and so forth. It is all about
people and how they behave. People should know, that certain things are
not allowed and should not be done.

Drugs of all sorts feed the 'bad guys', so you should try to avoid any
drugs - at least not pay for them. This because the money for the drugs
goes into the wrong canals and supports the criminals and unwanted
behaviour.

Any person without a shelter is a thread to public health. So it is
mandatory to allow every person access to soap and water, some sort of
housing and food.

Any kind of toxic waste should be removed from public places, to allow
kids safe play in their neighbourhood.

Public land should be accessible. Even farmland should be allowed to
enter for pedestrians, that just want to pass.

To create a strong society based on civil affairs, the industry and the
smaller companies had to be protected.

The Americans fought endless wars without apparent reason and without
apparent benefit. Many think, these wars are somehow good for America.
But - for example- what kind of benefit do you expect from the invasion
of Afghanistan, Somalia, Irak? It always ends like Vietnam: with a lot
of dead soldiers and no real gain.

TH

[Scout]

"Thomas Heger" <ttt...@web.de> wrote in message
news:9ei6pt...@mid.individual.net...

That assumes many things which aren't necessarily true.

[RHF]

On Sep 28, 2:00 pm, RD Sandman <rdsandman@comcast[remove].net> wrote:
> John Smith <bit_buc...@gmx.com> wrote innews:j5tt4e$2q7$1...@dont-email.me:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 9/27/2011 6:08 PM, d...@dudu.org wrote:
> >> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:30:19 -0400, "Scout"

> >> <me4g...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net>  wrote:
>
> >>> <d...@dudu.org>  wrote in message
> >>>news:tlo487po2f32t9m9c...@4ax.com...
> >>>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 16:29:19 -0700, John Smith<bit_buc...@gmx.com>

- The average self defense scenario follows
- the Rule of Three.
- Three shots,
- three yards,
- three seconds.

And If'n That Don't Work {Killing'Em} :
Then The Attacker Turns and Runs
-or-continues-the-attack-followed-by-
The Rule of One* :
One Shot,
One Yard,
One Second.
* Pure Survival

With a .410 Cal Derringer for Self-Defense :
1st Shot [Stop'Em] @ 2~3 Yards
-shoot-1st-to-protect-yourself-from-harm-
Last Shot [Kill'Em] @ 1-Yard
-1ast-shoot-to-save-your-life-self-defense-
.
-note- The Closer They Get :
The More Deadly You Become

[Gray Guest]

"Scout" <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote in
news:j60e6r$r15$1...@dont-email.me:

>> You need to fire
>> both barrels in a Bond 2 shot to equal the number of rounds in an
>> SP-101.
>
> Uh, an SP-101 in .38/.357 only holds 5 rounds. That's equal to the
> number of pellets of triple or quad aught buck in a 3" shell.
>
> So you would have to fire until empty, reload, and then empty again,
> your SP101 to get an equal number of lead pieces headed downrange to
> match those produced by 2 pulls of the Bond's trigger.
>
>:-)
>

While that is true, you also get increased velocity and much better
projectile design. I have some 158gr unjacketed Hollow Points +P,
Winchester, I think, that are supposed to be effective out of a short
barrel. Sort of an event in the airweight, very controlable in the 2.5"
M19.

[Gray Guest]

"Scout" <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote in
news:j60e6r$r15$1...@dont-email.me:

Honestly, after several years of looking at derringers and some of the
absurd calibers they come in, I find it hard to fault the choice of any
lightweight J frame. The more serious calibers are often as wide and nearly
as long and always weigh more. Mine hides very well and while reloading
isn't really an issue at close range (IMO) reloading a derringer can be a
PITA. I bought some Speed Strips and I can carry the J-Frame and 2 Speed
strips very comfortably. I really only would carry it if the 908 or G-19
was impractical for some reason, though.

[Gray Guest]

Thomas Heger <ttt...@web.de> wrote in news:9ei6ptFeh9U1
@mid.individual.net:

The "professionals" only prevail if you fight them on their terms.

Has no one heard of Sun Tzu?

[John Smith]

I don't know, personal experience has taught me that there are quick fixes.

The biggest bully in the world, if I can get access to him, when he is
away from his gang, and I with the proper tool(s), can be fixed in damn
short order ... cut off the head, the snake dies, it may wither a bit,
but it dies ...

A gun is a fabulous tool, however, experience, cunning, stealth,
intelligence, purpose, motivation, etc., these are all equally important
... a single man with the "righteousness of God" in his heart and soul
can be an amazing thing to witness -- a group of such men brought the
whole british empire to its' knees and established America ... masters,
in fear of their slaves, will always down play the importance of even a
single man, let alone the awesome powers which exist in a group of such
men, men who were not born to be slaves simply ignore their whining ...
most men know what they are, they have already looked into the core of
their being and know what exists there ... a coward, or not ...

Regards,
JS

[John Smith]

I'd say a police wad cutter would be effective at the distances
discussed here ... and cheap! Heck, reused brass and a shot out barrel
might even work to your advantage, in some situations -- crudely cast
slug, etc.

Regards,
JS

[Scout]

"John Smith" <bit_b...@gmx.com> wrote in message
news:j61313$umv$1...@dont-email.me...

Like I said above, his comment makes a number of assumptions that aren't
necessarily true. One of which you just illustrated.

> A gun is a fabulous tool, however, experience, cunning, stealth,
> intelligence, purpose, motivation, etc., these are all equally important
> ... a single man with the "righteousness of God" in his heart and soul can
> be an amazing thing to witness -- a group of such men brought the whole
> british empire to its' knees and established America ... masters, in fear
> of their slaves, will always down play the importance of even a single
> man, let alone the awesome powers which exist in a group of such men, men
> who were not born to be slaves simply ignore their whining ... most men
> know what they are, they have already looked into the core of their being
> and know what exists there ... a coward, or not ...

More examples of what I was talking about.

[Scout]

"Gray Guest" <No_email...@wahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9F6F17648A72EWe...@88.198.244.100...

Yep, but a soft lead pellet typically does a pretty good job particularly
when you're hitting them with multiple examples at the same time.

[Scout]

"Gray Guest" <No_email...@wahoo.com> wrote in message

news:Xns9F6F1825CFED0We...@88.198.244.100...

Different strokes for different folks. Doesn't mean a derringer in .410 is
the automatically bad choice Dudu tried to assert.

You have your preferences, I have mine, Dudu has his, and John has his.

But a .410 is a proven performer.

[John Smith]

Yes, I was agreeing with you, I didn't realize my statements could be
taken differently ...

Regards,
JS

[SaPeIsMa]

"Thomas Heger" <ttt...@web.de> wrote in message

news:9eh1fu...@mid.individual.net...

> Am 28.09.2011 01:29, schrieb John Smith:
>> .410 buck (or a choice), .357/.38 ....
>>
>> good obama blaster, criminal public servant controller, etc. Could stop
>> 'em from stealing you SW radio, golf clubs, other guns, or save your
>> arse when you wake up to the conspiracy and the conspirators want you
>> silenced!
>>
> Civil war in the US would be really terrible. (And I have doubt, that such
> handguns would be the weapons of choice.)
>
> Better would be to prevent havoc.
>
> I think, that violence isn't the right way. People would better try to
> reacquire control about all elements of the society: the communities,
> politics, education, health-care, nutrition, transportation, military and
> even entertainment.
>
> In all these fields, there are people involved, that do not want their
> country destroyed. But there are also 'bad guys', that like misery,
> violence, sickness and dirt.
>
> If you want nicer people, you had to clean your (personal!) environment,
> remove the rubble, overpaint the graffiti, disallow drug trafficking,
> rethink education, watch less tv, cook your own food, walk, smile - but
> don't carry a gun around.
>

That last one..
"..but don't carry a gun around.."
is where you demonstrate you're not clued in.
The so-called "Wild West" was a much safer place to be than cities on the
East Coast during the same period, and that includes the wild and wooly gold
and silver mining towns in Nevada and California.
And the difference is a simple one.
On the East Coast, the people were disarmed and defenseless
In the "Wild West" people were armed, willing and able to defend
themselves.

> To regain control you need to start with local affairs and reorganise,
> what is in reach. Do not let any dubious character have any influence on
> any public office. To identify such persons is difficult, but some
> characteristics you certainly don't want to have at - say - a teacher.
> For example membership in any sort of 'secret society' is definitely not
> acceptable or massive tattoos, drug consume, sexual disorder, known
> violence or extremistic political opinions.
>

<yawn>
More ignorant and superficial bigotry.

> Such persons are generally a threat to more 'usual' people, because they
> are too boring for their sick brains.
>

What's your excuse ?

[SaPeIsMa]

"Thomas Heger" <ttt...@web.de> wrote in message
news:9ei6pt...@mid.individual.net...

What "professionals are those ?
And what makes you presume that we (allegedly) NON "professionals
- only have handguns ?
- are less capable that those alleged "professionals"
Not to mention that there is no guarantee that all those "professionals
would align themselves with an abusive government.

> But people could 'take it back'. I mean 'the real life', the communities,
> local affairs, education and so forth. It is all about people and how they
> behave. People should know, that certain things are not allowed and should
> not be done.
>

And what are those things are are "not allowed and should not be done"
Do give us a list..

> Drugs of all sorts feed the 'bad guys', so you should try to avoid any
> drugs - at least not pay for them. This because the money for the drugs
> goes into the wrong canals and supports the criminals and unwanted
> behaviour.
>
> Any person without a shelter is a thread to public health. So it is
> mandatory to allow every person access to soap and water, some sort of
> housing and food.
>
> Any kind of toxic waste should be removed from public places, to allow
> kids safe play in their neighbourhood.
>
> Public land should be accessible. Even farmland should be allowed to enter
> for pedestrians, that just want to pass.
>
> To create a strong society based on civil affairs, the industry and the
> smaller companies had to be protected.
>
> The Americans fought endless wars without apparent reason and without
> apparent benefit.

Feel free to list those wars that Americans fought

"without apparent reason and without apparent benefit."

> Many think, these wars are somehow good for America.

Who is "Many"
and HOW many are those "many" ???
Just so we can figure out what we're dealing with here ?

> But - for example- what kind of benefit do you expect from the invasion of
> Afghanistan, Somalia, Irak? It always ends like Vietnam: with a lot of
> dead soldiers and no real gain.
>

Afghanistan was to attack and destabilize the Taliban
At the time, becoming a major force force in creating radical
Islamofascists.
Somalia was at the time supposed to be an aid mission that was badly planned
and executed
Iraq was a multiple level play
a) limit and ultimately get rid of Saddam
b) Send a message to Iran and others that they are NOT invulnerable
because they are far from the US
c) an opportunity to destroy a whole bunch of jihadists
d) curb local mullahs
e) Come to the aid of the Kurds and southern Iraqis who were being
massacred wholesale by Saddam.
Just to name a few...

Maybe you need to study up a bit before you come back to spout more of your
simplistic cant.

[SaPeIsMa]

"John Smith" <bit_b...@gmx.com> wrote in message

news:j60bnp$dfg$1...@dont-email.me...

Anyone who does NOT practice "point-shoot" techniques for self-defense is
doing the wrong thing
Self-defense shooting has to be instinctive point shooting.
You will not have time to get into the right position, bring your weapon to
eye-level and aim carefully..
You must literally point your weapon and pull the trigger.
That means practicing regularly UNAIMED shooting at distances under 10 yards

[Thomas Heger]

Am 29.09.2011 08:24, schrieb Gray Guest:
> Thomas Heger<ttt...@web.de> wrote in news:9ei6ptFeh9U1

'The art of war'
old Chinese philosophy of government.

But anyhow: there is a difference between a person and a country.

I have trouble to understand the idea, that people think, they have to
defend themselves against the own government.

I mean, not only with words, but with real guns. Ain't these
professionals the own soldiers? How could soldiers even consider to
fight against their own people?

They get brainwashed, for sure. But even zombies on drugs would
remember, were they came from. Or is that about money? Well, 'rip off
the pharao' was the favourite game of the Egyptian 'priests'.

Or are there religious motives?

TH

[Thomas Heger]

Well, I understand what you mean, but this is not, what I wanted to say.
(If you intend to fight a real fight against armoured vehicles, than you
need a little more 'punch' than a handgun.)
I do not understand the idea itself. How could people consider this
could be necessary?

I'm German, but I'm really interested in this question, because it seems
not very plausible to me, that people feel, they need to defend

[Gray Guest]

"Scout" <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote in news:j6182n
$pqm$1...@dont-email.me:

Undoubtedly, I have merely stated my preference.

Dogmatism amongst gun owners is amusing and frequently annoying. Especially
when paired with innaccurate information. 8)

[Gray Guest]

"SaPeIsMa" <SaPe...@HotMail.com> wrote in
news:MZKdnTi1gqSmFBnT...@bright.net:

>> But these arms are not to be used, because in a real fight, the
>> professionals are better off than you with a handgun.
>>
>
> What "professionals are those ?
> And what makes you presume that we (allegedly) NON "professionals
> - only have handguns ?
> - are less capable that those alleged "professionals"
> Not to mention that there is no guarantee that all those "professionals
> would align themselves with an abusive government.
>
>

One of Murphy's Laws for Grunts states:

"Professionals are predictable. But the world is full of amatures".

Meaning, I suppose, that you can predict what a professional will do based
on his training. But the amatures are unpredictable, which gives them a
certain advantage.

[Gray Guest]

Thomas Heger <ttt...@web.de> wrote in news:9ejg58Fmr8U1
@mid.individual.net:

Another illiterate moron sticks his head up and announces himself.

Adopted by Congress on July 4, 1776
The Unanimous Declaration of the Thirteen United States of America

When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to
dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to
assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to
which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect
to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes
which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights,
that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to
secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their
just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of
government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people
to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its
foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to
them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence,
indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be
changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath
shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable,
than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are
accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing
invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute
despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such
government, and to provide new guards for their future security. --Such has
been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the
necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of
government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history
of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the
establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states. To prove this, let
facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his assent to laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the
public good.

He has forbidden his governors to pass laws of immediate and pressing
importance, unless suspended in their operation till his assent should be
obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to
them.

He has refused to pass other laws for the accommodation of large districts
of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of representation
in the legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants
only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable,
and distant from the depository of their public records, for the sole
purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved representative houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly
firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to
be elected; whereby the legislative powers, incapable of annihilation, have
returned to the people at large for their exercise; the state remaining in
the meantime exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and
convulsions within.

He has endeavored to prevent the population of these states; for that
purpose obstructing the laws for naturalization of foreigners; refusing to
pass others to encourage their migration hither, and raising the conditions
of new appropriations of lands.

He has obstructed the administration of justice, by refusing his assent to
laws for establishing judiciary powers.

He has made judges dependent on his will alone, for the tenure of their
offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of
officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, standing armies without the
consent of our legislature.

He has affected to render the military independent of and superior to civil
power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our
constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his assent to their
acts of pretended legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment for any murders which
they should commit on the inhabitants of these states:

For cutting off our trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing taxes on us without our consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of trial by jury:

For transporting us beyond seas to be tried for pretended offenses:

For abolishing the free system of English laws in a neighboring province,
establishing therein an arbitrary government, and enlarging its boundaries
so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing
the same absolute rule in these colonies:

For taking away our charters, abolishing our most valuable laws, and
altering fundamentally the forms of our governments:

For suspending our own legislatures and declaring themselves invested with
power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated government here, by declaring us out of his protection and
waging war against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burned our towns, and
destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large armies of foreign mercenaries to
complete the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with
circumstances of cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most
barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow citizens taken captive on the high seas to
bear arms against their country, to become the executioners of their
friends and brethren, or to fall themselves by their hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavored to
bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian savages,
whose known rule of warfare, is undistinguished destruction of all ages,
sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these oppressions we have petitioned for redress in the
most humble terms: our repeated petitions have been answered only by
repeated injury. A prince, whose character is thus marked by every act
which may define a tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have we been wanting in attention to our British brethren. We have
warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an
unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the
circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to
their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties
of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably
interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to
the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in
the necessity, which denounces our separation, and hold them, as we hold
the rest of mankind, enemies in war, in peace friends.

We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in
General Congress, assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world
for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by the authority
of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, that
these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent
states; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown,
and that all political connection between them and the state of Great
Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as free and
independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace,
contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things
which independent states may of right do. And for the support of this
declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence,
we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred
honor.

New Hampshire: Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton
Massachusetts: John Hancock, Samual Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine,
Elbridge Gerry
Rhode Island: Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery
Connecticut: Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver
Wolcott
New York: William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris
New Jersey: Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John
Hart, Abraham Clark
Pennsylvania: Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton,
George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross
Delaware: Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean
Maryland: Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of
Carrollton
Virginia: George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin
Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton
North Carolina: William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn
South Carolina: Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr.,
Arthur Middleton
Georgia: Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton
Source: The Pennsylvania Packet, July 8, 1776

[Gray Guest]

Thomas Heger <ttt...@web.de> wrote in

news:9ejhhh...@mid.individual.net:

Are you insane? You are German and you can't imagine why someone might not
care for thier government? Did they teach you about Uncle Adolph in school,
boy.

Governments are supposed to govern with the consent of the governed. When
the government becomes harmful to the governed it must go. How messy that
will be depends on how much the government resists. Normally and election
or an indictment solve the problem. Other times it does not.

Also, your forebears would be very dissapointed in you using a pistol
against an armored vehicle. In fact many times less than bright people have
made the argument that it's not realistic to fight an armored vehicle with
a pistol. Well, no shit. Who do you think is stupid enough to deploy a
platoon of pistol armed militia against a platoon of tanks?

Tanks require fuel, water, ammo and spare parts. They require people to
operate them and they require food, water, clothing and various amenities
to survive. If you can interdict them before it gets to the tank, why you
remove all the advantages of the thick armored shell.

And while I get that you won't understand this, in our country the
givernment will find that the troops will not neccessarily make war on the
civilians. Their oath is to the Constitution and ultimately to the People,
not to some transient tramp in the White House.

[SaPeIsMa]

"Thomas Heger" <ttt...@web.de> wrote in message
news:9ejg58...@mid.individual.net...

> Am 29.09.2011 08:24, schrieb Gray Guest:
>>
>> The "professionals" only prevail if you fight them on their terms.
>>
>> Has no one heard of Sun Tzu?
>
> 'The art of war' old Chinese philosophy of government.
>

LOL
Too bad you only know of the title and haven't' actually read it.

> But anyhow: there is a difference between a person and a country.
>

Really ?
Do tell..

> I have trouble to understand the idea, that people think, they have to
> defend themselves against the own government.
>

Maybe you should read up on ALL those governments that have proven deadly
for their populations
Here's a good place to start..
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.CHAP2.HTM

> I mean, not only with words, but with real guns. Ain't these professionals
> the own soldiers? How could soldiers even consider to fight against their
> own people?
>

See above....

> They get brainwashed, for sure. But even zombies on drugs would remember,
> were they came from. Or is that about money? Well, 'rip off the pharao'
> was the favourite game of the Egyptian 'priests'.
>
> Or are there religious motives?
>

See above


Note, you sure spew a lot of words to demonstrate crass and abyssal
ignorance..
Are you a graduate student in the arts or alleged sciences ?

[SaPeIsMa]

"Gray Guest" <No_email...@wahoo.com> wrote in message

news:Xns9F6F789E8BCA8We...@88.198.244.100...

Excellent response, but it ignores more recent misbehavior and abuse by
governments
Just look at all the murder and mayhem committed by governments on their
own people in the last 100 years


But to change the subject and the subject line....
I am looking for a good and readable intro to US Civics for a friend who is
going to become a US citizen.
He wants more than just to pass the test - which he's already fully
qualified to do
He wants more in depth analysis and commentary
In a way, I wish that Isaac Asimov had written a book on this comparable to
his Guide to the Bible..
it would have been a hell of a read...

[John Smith]

You Germans are supposed to be excellent engineers, no one there can
make a flame thrower big enough to incinerate vehicles? IUD's to take
them off the road? Devices to roast pigs in a Kevlar vest?

I agree, those fancy tanks and SWAT vehicles would need to be taken out
quickly and put 'em on their feet. A section of drilling pipe, with a
simple explosive charge and big cast lead slug should make it though
those bullet proof windows, etc. Some cleverly twisted pieces of tool
steel metal tossed out in front of the tank tracks should be able to
wind up in them and slow/stop them. My gawd man, the American
forefathers, the "terrorists" in iraq and iran, afghanistan, etc. can
come up some great ideas, are fine German engineers to be outdone? It
will be the helicopters which will take a bit of thought and
experimenting ...

But, peaceful revolution first, then anyway possible ... and don't
forget waiting, getting the leaders into vulnerable positions, isolated
from the main group, stealth, cunning, poisons, etc.

Remember the earth pits of vietnam with sharpened bamboo spikes which
had been urinated on -- scared the bejesus up and was an excellent
psychological weapon, and effective too ... snares to snap a mans neck
... where there is a will, there is ALWAYS a way ... it is VERY
DIFFICULT to take any nation where the citizens have a will and weapons.
They must break the peoples will or it is a no-go. The real danger is
in government programs to mentally enslave the populations, get them
used to be unquestioning slaves, brainwashed, feminized males, etc.

Regards,
JS

[John Smith]

In America, government and our government employees are servants of the
people, whenever they forget this, it is the responsibility, placed on
us by our Constitution and the forefathers and those who died to give us
our rights to correct this criminal government -- and to use whatever
means are necessary ... it may be different for you.

Regards,
JS

[SaPeIsMa]

"Thomas Heger" <ttt...@web.de> wrote in message

news:9ejhhh...@mid.individual.net...

Again the silly argument that you citizens in the US would be facing
soldiers with handguns..
I'll remind you that the Barrett .50 BMG was designed for CIVILIAN use
and then adopted by the military and other government agencies.

> I do not understand the idea itself. How could people consider this could
> be necessary?
>

Then you need to study up on the history of government abuse and murder
(democide) of their own people.
Just in the 20th Century, such governments have killed of more than
140,000,000 people
Just read up on Germany in the 20th Century as a prime candidate of such
abuse
It would take a blind person to not understand that people need to defend
themselves from their own abusive governments.

> I'm German, but I'm really interested in this question, because it seems
> not very plausible to me, that people feel, they need to defend themselves
> against the own government.
>

Why don't you analyse why the people in Hungary revolted against their
"masters" in 1956 ?
Why don't you read up on the people who risked their lives to escape from
East Germany ?

Your lack of understanding is based on abyssal ignorance of the abuses that
governments perpetrate against their own people..

[RD Sandman]

"Scout" <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote in
news:j60e6r$r15$1...@dont-email.me:

>
>
> "RD Sandman" <rdsandman@comcast[remove].net> wrote in message
> news:Xns9F6E8E03...@216.196.121.131...
>> "Scout" <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote in
>> news:j5tr2o$ppt$1...@dont-email.me:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "BDK" <Con...@Worldcontrol.com> wrote in message
>>> news:MPG.28ec32924...@news.giganews.com...
>>>> In article <tlo487po2f32t9m9c...@4ax.com>,
>>>> de...@dudu.org says...
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 16:29:19 -0700, John Smith
>>>>> <bit_b...@gmx.com> wrote:
>>>>>

>>>>> >.410 buck (or a choice), .357/.38 ....
>>>>> >
>>>>> >good obama blaster, criminal public servant controller, etc.
>>>>> >Could stop 'em from stealing you SW radio, golf clubs, other
>>>>> >guns, or save your arse when you wake up to the conspiracy and
>>>>> >the conspirators want you silenced!
>>>>> >

Both seem to contain the same number of pellets in 000. The difference
is in the powder charge, apparently.

> One gives you 4 pellets of triple aught, the other gives you 5.

Not per wiki.

> The Bondarm's Century 2000 derringer, the gun under discussion,
> accepts up to a 3" .410 shell.
>
> Hence the 5 pellets discussed.

Perhaps of 00.......but the heavy load mentioned was 000.

> Of course, you could also load in a .410 with 5 pellets of 0000 buck
> (0.375). Of course, you're probably going to need to mail order those,
> and I think only a few manufacturers even make them.
>
>:-)
>
>>> That's not to say that one is a better gun than the other, but as in
>>> so much it depends on what you're looking for it to do.
>>>
>>> Also the .410 loading is generally reported to have a fairly high 1
>>> shot stop percentage, since you are usually effectively hitting the
>>> target multiple times in 1 shot.
>>
>> Three, if all impact and you are shooting 000 buck.
>
> Actually even if more than 1 hit, you will still be hitting the target
> multiple times. :-)

Same with two trigger pulls on an SP-101.

> However, if that's the case, odds are you didn't hit much of
> consequence unless you're talking the head.

Both at close range would be effective to center mass....the edge going
to the .410.

>> You need to fire
>> both barrels in a Bond 2 shot to equal the number of rounds in an
>> SP-101.
>
> Uh, an SP-101 in .38/.357 only holds 5 rounds. That's equal to the
> number of pellets of triple or quad aught buck in a 3" shell.

Again, not per wiki on the .410 shotshell. Anyway, I have three SP-101s
(as you can tell, I hate them), two in .357 and one in .327Federal. The
latter holds six rounds.

> So you would have to fire until empty, reload, and then empty again,
> your SP101 to get an equal number of lead pieces headed downrange to
> match those produced by 2 pulls of the Bond's trigger.
>
>:-)

Not going to argue with you. You can see what wiki says as well as I
can.

>>> Based on reports and testing, the rounds that produce the best one
>>> shot stops are those that produce a nice hydrostatic shock wave in
>>> the blood pressure that effectively shuts down the brain for a
>>> period of time. Now that's not to say they are going to stay down,
>>> only that they are going to drop on the first shot and stay down for
>>> a bit. Shotguns do this quite effectively since they tend to dump a
>>> large part of their energy to a broad section of the body inducing
>>> such a hydrostatic shock. This, of course, depends upon a reasonably
>>> direct impact to center mass.
>>>
>>> So it all depends on your preferences, choices, and so on.
>>
>> This is true.
>>
>>> My biggest objection would be the weight of the piece which IMO
>>> makes it less of a carry piece. On the other hand it's flat which
>>> again IMO makes it easier to conceal than a revolver.
>>
>> True with the Bond derringer, not so with a Taurus Judge or the S&W.
>
> Well, I wasn't intending this to be an in-depth review of all the
> variations, only contesting Dudu's immediate and apparently arbitrary
> dismissal of the Century 2000 as being unsuitable for self defense,
> and challenging each of his talking points to establish that.

Dudu tends to run off half cocked over anything you say or suggest so I
don't pay much attention to him on those points. What got me going was
mention of the SP-101. It is one of the things he and I agree on. It is
an excellent gun.

> About the only point that was really valid was the accuracy issue, but
> at self defense ranges a gun doesn't need to be particularly accurate
> hence my noting it as pretty much a moot point.

Fair enough.

[RD Sandman]

"Scout" <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote in news:j60bln
$d5q$1...@dont-email.me:

>
>
> "RD Sandman" <rdsandman@comcast[remove].net> wrote in message

> news:Xns9F6E8EBD8...@216.196.121.131...

>> John Smith <bit_b...@gmx.com> wrote in

>> news:j5u5ta$dul$1...@dont-email.me:

>>
>>> On 9/27/2011 7:59 PM, Harry Callahan wrote:
>>>> John Smith<bit_b...@gmx.com> wrote in

>>>> news:j5tma9$u8$1...@dont-email.me:

>>>>
>>>>> .410 buck (or a choice), .357/.38 ....
>>>>>
>>>>> good obama blaster, criminal public servant controller, etc. Could
>>>>> stop 'em from stealing you SW radio, golf clubs, other guns, or
save
>>>>> your arse when you wake up to the conspiracy and the conspirators
>>>>> want you silenced!
>>>>>
>>>>> http://bondarmsusa.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> (make sure you watch the video!)
>>>>>
>>>>> Would even fit in the san fransicko boys' purses!
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> JS
>>>>

>>>> Fuck that ya pansy. 6.5" M-29 in a vertical shoulder holster. Extra
>>>> speed loaders on your belt.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> LOL!!! Or, an old school Thompson in a violin case!
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> JS
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Tried that.....the damn bow and rosin keep getting in the way.
>
> Well, if you took out the violin you wouldn't need those things either.
>
>
>

Damn....after all these years, someone finally tells me the answer. ;(

[RD Sandman]

"Scout" <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote in
news:j60br0$du3$1...@dont-email.me:

>
>
> "BDK" <Con...@Worldcontrol.com> wrote in message

> news:MPG.28ec5a5d8...@news.giganews.com...
>> In article <j5tr2o$ppt$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net says...

>>>
>>> "BDK" <Con...@Worldcontrol.com> wrote in message
>>> news:MPG.28ec32924...@news.giganews.com...
>>> > In article <tlo487po2f32t9m9c...@4ax.com>,
>>> > de...@dudu.org says...
>>> >>
>>> >> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 16:29:19 -0700, John Smith
>>> >> <bit_b...@gmx.com> wrote:
>>> >>

>>> >> >.410 buck (or a choice), .357/.38 ....
>>> >> >
>>> >> >good obama blaster, criminal public servant controller, etc.
>>> >> >Could stop
>>> >> >'em from stealing you SW radio, golf clubs, other guns, or save
>>> >> >your arse when you wake up to the conspiracy and the
>>> >> >conspirators want you silenced!
>>> >> >
>>> >> >http://bondarmsusa.com/
>>> >> >
>>> >> >(make sure you watch the video!)
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Would even fit in the san fransicko boys' purses!
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Regards,
>>> >> >JS
>>> >>

>>> >> Fuck that. This is a much better weapon.
>>> >>
>>> >> http://www.ruger.com/products/sp101/index.html
>>> >>
>>> >> Five shots, better reload time, much more accurate.
>>> >
>>> > Leave it to Johnny Kook to pick a POS like a Bond Arms 2 shot.
>>> >
>>> > Dozens of better guns out there.
>>>
>>> Depends on what you're after.
>>>
>>> On a shot per shot basis, the .410 is going to deliver more to
>>> target.
>>>
>>> effectively ten 30 caliber pellets to target in the time it takes to
>>> pull the trigger twice.
>>>

>>> Whereas the Ruger is going to take 5 trigger pulls, a reload, and
>>> than another 5 trigger pulls.
>>>

>>> That's not to say that one is a better gun than the other, but as in
>>> so much
>>> it depends on what you're looking for it to do.
>>>
>>> Also the .410 loading is generally reported to have a fairly high 1
>>> shot stop percentage, since you are usually effectively hitting the
>>> target multiple times in 1 shot.
>>>

>>> Based on reports and testing, the rounds that produce the best one
>>> shot stops are those that produce a nice hydrostatic shock wave in
>>> the blood pressure that effectively shuts down the brain for a
>>> period of time. Now that's not to say they are going to stay down,
>>> only that they are going to
>>> drop on the first shot and stay down for a bit. Shotguns do this
>>> quite effectively since they tend to dump a large part of their
>>> energy to a broad
>>> section of the body inducing such a hydrostatic shock. This, of
>>> course, depends upon a reasonably direct impact to center mass.
>>>
>>> So it all depends on your preferences, choices, and so on.
>>>

>>> My biggest objection would be the weight of the piece which IMO
>>> makes it less of a carry piece. On the other hand it's flat which
>>> again IMO makes it
>>> easier to conceal than a revolver.
>>>
>>

>> I never understood the whole "weight" thing. A half pound or so more
>> than a lightweight gun never bothered my at all. I carried a S&W 28
>> 6+ 1/2" at work for 40 hours a week and they don't come a lot heavier
>> than that. Give me steel always. No plast...er polymer, for me.
>
> All depends on the manner of carry. Weight can be a factor.


Particularly in a poor holster. A good holster tends to negate that
factor.

[RD Sandman]

"Scout" <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote in news:j60gjn
$7jc$1...@dont-email.me:

>
>
> "RD Sandman" <rdsandman@comcast[remove].net> wrote in message

> news:Xns9F6EABB38...@216.196.121.131...
>> "Scout" <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote in
>> news:j60b8o$b72$1...@dont-email.me:

>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <de...@dudu.org> wrote in message
>>> news:gds4879tl5fhecdps...@4ax.com...
>>>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:30:19 -0400, "Scout"
>>>> <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>><de...@dudu.org> wrote in message
>>>>>news:tlo487po2f32t9m9c...@4ax.com...

>>>>>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 16:29:19 -0700, John Smith
<bit_b...@gmx.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>.410 buck (or a choice), .357/.38 ....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>good obama blaster, criminal public servant controller, etc.
Could
>>>>>>>stop 'em from stealing you SW radio, golf clubs, other guns, or
>>>>>>>save your arse when you wake up to the conspiracy and the
>>>>>>>conspirators want you silenced!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://bondarmsusa.com/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>(make sure you watch the video!)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Would even fit in the san fransicko boys' purses!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Regards,
>>>>>>>JS
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fuck that. This is a much better weapon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.ruger.com/products/sp101/index.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Five shots,
>>>>>

>>>>>Which you get from one round of .410 triple aught buck (3" shell)
>>>>
>>>> I can get 5 shots on target. And reload in about 2 seconds.
>>>
>>> Get, the .410 can do the same thing in about 50ms, and do it again
>>> 50ms later.
>>

>> If one still has control of it after the first BANG!!!
>
> Hence the weight we were discussing earlier.
>
>
>

Perhaps on that particular one. Many derringers are quite light hence
more vicious recoil.

[SaPeIsMa]

"Gray Guest" <No_email...@wahoo.com> wrote in message

news:Xns9F6F1825CFED0We...@88.198.244.100...

>
>
> Honestly, after several years of looking at derringers and some of the
> absurd calibers they come in, I find it hard to fault the choice of any
> lightweight J frame. The more serious calibers are often as wide and
> nearly
> as long and always weigh more. Mine hides very well and while reloading
> isn't really an issue at close range (IMO) reloading a derringer can be a
> PITA. I bought some Speed Strips and I can carry the J-Frame and 2 Speed
> strips very comfortably. I really only would carry it if the 908 or G-19
> was impractical for some reason, though.
>

I followed the same pattern as you, with one additional step
I moved to the Colt Agent and Cobra snubbies.
They offer one more round than the S&W J-frames for the same weight.
I also find their triggers much better (very personal taste)

[John Smith]

In America, the citizens are the government, of course we would not
fight against a majority consensus of our citizens, the government ...

You have this confused with the relatively small group of criminal
public servants, from the president on down, who are attempting to usurp
the peoples powers and become "our leaders", this is simply out of the
question. They are now engaged in wholesale criminal behaviors and
actions without respect for the Constitution, it takes time to put down
such widespread and powerful criminals.

If you owned a company, would you let the employees become criminal and
take over the company? The answer is NO! Indeed, it is "HELL NO!"

They, the criminals in government, simply need the prison cells which
they are entitled to and replace them with proper public servants ...
however, they may not be willing to go peacefully ...

Regards,
JS

[John Smith]

Those words have never been more important than this very day ...

Regards,
JS

[John Smith]

Years ago, back in the 90's, I used to have a small laser device, was
the size of a .38 but a bit longer, would chamber up and a slight pull
on the trigger would let the pin-switch, which was located where a
primer normally is, make contact and turn on the pin point laser, I
would sit in the back yard with a beer and play with it often,
especially in the evenings, after work ... it sharpened my performance
on the range and in making a can bounce over the ground like no one
could believe ... I forgot who I gave it too. It came with a snap on cap
which would hold the device off when removed from the gun.

Anyone know where you can get those, I'd like a couple in different
calibers?

Regards,
JS

[RD Sandman]

John Smith <bit_b...@gmx.com> wrote in

news:j62dvu$ffj$1...@dont-email.me:

Try this site:

http://www.laserlyte.com/new_products/New_LT-9_LT-40_LT-45.html

You are welcome.....

[John Smith]

Thanks, just ordered one!

Gawd, I miss that little toy ... thanks :-)

Regards,
JS

[Thomas Heger]

Am 29.09.2011 18:16, schrieb SaPeIsMa:
>
> "Thomas Heger" <ttt...@web.de> wrote in message
> news:9ejg58...@mid.individual.net...
>> Am 29.09.2011 08:24, schrieb Gray Guest:
>>>
>>> The "professionals" only prevail if you fight them on their terms.
>>>
>>> Has no one heard of Sun Tzu?
>>
>> 'The art of war' old Chinese philosophy of government.
>>
>
> LOL
> Too bad you only know of the title and haven't' actually read it.

Actually I've not read it, but listened to it as audio-book - in English
btw, what is a second language for me.

>
>> But anyhow: there is a difference between a person and a country.
>>
>
> Really ?
> Do tell..
>

Really!

The difference is cooperation and organisation. A single person cannot
know, what other people do, only guess. The uncertainty makes it much
harder for an individual to defend himself than a multitude of organised
individuals.

This means, that individuals should find trustful friends.

In modern times people are too often separated and have not many trusted
relations.

To overcome this, I kind of 'invented' a concept, I call 'tribes':
imagine 'Indians', but young, modern, western people, equipped with
computers and other electronic means, that mimic Indians to some extend
(wear a feather or alike).

..

>
> Note, you sure spew a lot of words to demonstrate crass and abyssal
> ignorance..
> Are you a graduate student in the arts or alleged sciences ?

Actually I live in Germany and am an engineer. American society is
something I have not too much knowledge, but certain developments really
frighten me. There are these FEMA camps for example or military grade
weapons in private hands or in that of policemen. A lot of other things
I really don't like, but usually the people and have quite a few friends
from the US.

TH

[John Smith]

Read about Waco, Texas, USA and the Branch Dividians, the American
military was used against the people and slaughtered men, women and
children ... those who survived still live in fear and know they are
watched to this very day ...

Yes, chilling and getting colder as I type this ...

Regards,
JS

[John Smith]

Hey, no one ever agrees on the same car/truck/auto, golf clubs, night
clubs, water, food, house, etc. -- why would guns ever be any different
... even the saturday night specials are useful and have their place ...

Regards,
JS

[Gray Guest]

"SaPeIsMa" <SaPe...@HotMail.com> wrote in
news:1NmdnZzPYevuBhnT...@bright.net:

Democracy In America by De Tocqueville.

[Gray Guest]

Thomas Heger <ttt...@web.de> wrote in news:9ejucrFg8tU1
@mid.individual.net:

Would that include scalping and slow cooking an enemies haed over a low hot
fire while they are still alive.

>
> ..
>>
>> Note, you sure spew a lot of words to demonstrate crass and abyssal
>> ignorance..
>> Are you a graduate student in the arts or alleged sciences ?
>
> Actually I live in Germany and am an engineer. American society is
> something I have not too much knowledge, but certain developments really
> frighten me. There are these FEMA camps for example or military grade
> weapons in private hands or in that of policemen. A lot of other things
> I really don't like, but usually the people and have quite a few friends
> from the US.
>
> TH

Okay, first of all the FEMA camps are the product of diseased imaginations.
2nd if it were true why wouldn't we want to arm ourselves to prevent us
being cast into concentration camps.

As to military grade hardware in the hands of civilians? Tough shit. We as
a people are grown up enough to decide our own fate, needs and wants. If I
want to own something it's my business so long as I do no harm to another.

Now the police having them, I don't much care for that. But your cops have
military grade weapons don't they. Ever hear of GSG-9.

What is military grade anyway?

[Gray Guest]

"SaPeIsMa" <SaPe...@HotMail.com> wrote in news:Ws-
dncwn1P7uKBnTn...@bright.net:

As long as you aren't dogmatic about it. Arf-arf! 8)

[Scout]

"Gray Guest" <No_email...@wahoo.com> wrote in message

news:Xns9F6F7730D9E0DWe...@88.198.244.100...

Which I think is the point I'm trying to make. We all have preferences, and
just because John has one preference and Dudu another, doesn't justify his
assertion that this derringer isn't suitable.

[Scout]

"Thomas Heger" <ttt...@web.de> wrote in message
news:9ejg58...@mid.individual.net...
> Am 29.09.2011 08:24, schrieb Gray Guest:

>> Thomas Heger<ttt...@web.de> wrote in news:9ei6ptFeh9U1
>> @mid.individual.net:
>>
>>> Am 28.09.2011 23:05, schrieb Gray Guest:
>>>> Thomas Heger<ttt...@web.de> wrote in news:9eh1fuFakeU1
>>>> @mid.individual.net:
>>>>
>>>>> Am 28.09.2011 01:29, schrieb John Smith:

>>>>>> .410 buck (or a choice), .357/.38 ....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> good obama blaster, criminal public servant controller, etc. Could
>> stop
>>>>>> 'em from stealing you SW radio, golf clubs, other guns, or save your
>>>>>> arse when you wake up to the conspiracy and the conspirators want you
>>>>>> silenced!
>>>>>>

>> The "professionals" only prevail if you fight them on their terms.
>>
>> Has no one heard of Sun Tzu?
>
> 'The art of war'
> old Chinese philosophy of government.
>

> But anyhow: there is a difference between a person and a country.
>

> I have trouble to understand the idea, that people think, they have to
> defend themselves against the own government.

I take it then you're not a student of history?

> I mean, not only with words, but with real guns. Ain't these professionals
> the own soldiers? How could soldiers even consider to fight against their
> own people?

I accept this as confirmation you know next to nothing about history.

[Scout]

"Thomas Heger" <ttt...@web.de> wrote in message

news:9ejhhh...@mid.individual.net...
> Am 29.09.2011 08:25, schrieb John Smith:
>> On 9/28/2011 10:12 PM, Scout wrote:
>>>
>>>

>>> "Thomas Heger" <ttt...@web.de> wrote in message

>>> news:9ei6pt...@mid.individual.net...

>>> That assumes many things which aren't necessarily true.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I don't know, personal experience has taught me that there are quick
>> fixes.
>>
>> The biggest bully in the world, if I can get access to him, when he is
>> away from his gang, and I with the proper tool(s), can be fixed in damn
>> short order ... cut off the head, the snake dies, it may wither a bit,
>> but it dies ...
>>
>> A gun is a fabulous tool, however, experience, cunning, stealth,
>> intelligence, purpose, motivation, etc., these are all equally important
>> ... a single man with the "righteousness of God" in his heart and soul
>> can be an amazing thing to witness -- a group of such men brought the
>> whole british empire to its' knees and established America ... masters,
>> in fear of their slaves, will always down play the importance of even a
>> single man, let alone the awesome powers which exist in a group of such
>> men, men who were not born to be slaves simply ignore their whining ...
>> most men know what they are, they have already looked into the core of
>> their being and know what exists there ... a coward, or not ...
>>
> Well, I understand what you mean, but this is not, what I wanted to say.
> (If you intend to fight a real fight against armoured vehicles, than you
> need a little more 'punch' than a handgun.)

Depends on how you fight them.

Apparently you seem to feel the only way to fight against armored vehicles
are on their terms.

> I do not understand the idea itself. How could people consider this could
> be necessary?

Lessons from history.

> I'm German, but I'm really interested in this question, because it seems

> not very plausible to me, that people feel, they need to defend themselves
> against the own government.

I take it then your knowledge of your own country's history starts around
1950?

>

[Scout]

"John Smith" <bit_b...@gmx.com> wrote in message

news:j626aj$n2q$1...@dont-email.me...

V-cong. Plant a number of thin pools around potential LZs wire grenades to
the poles and run lines between the poles. When the down draft starts wiping
the poles around, it pulls the pin, *bang*, one damaged or downed helo.

I think something like the bird traps which use projectiles to fire a net
over an area, but do the same thing with light wire hooked into heavier
gauge stuff. Once the rotor pulls in enough around the rotor head....well
that's the end of that helo.

[Howard Brazee]

On Thu, 29 Sep 2011 20:58:29 +0000 (UTC), Gray Guest
<No_email...@wahoo.com> wrote:

>> But to change the subject and the subject line....
>> I am looking for a good and readable intro to US Civics for a friend who
>> is going to become a US citizen.
>> He wants more than just to pass the test - which he's already fully
>> qualified to do
>> He wants more in depth analysis and commentary
>> In a way, I wish that Isaac Asimov had written a book on this comparable
>> to his Guide to the Bible..
>> it would have been a hell of a read...
>>
>>
>>
>
>Democracy In America by De Tocqueville.

Should be required reading by most USAmericans.

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

[RHF]

On Sep 29, 2:05 pm, Gray Guest <No_email_for_...@wahoo.com> wrote:
> Thomas Heger <ttt_...@web.de> wrote in news:9ejucrFg8tU1

> @mid.individual.net:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Am 29.09.2011 18:16, schrieb SaPeIsMa:
>

> >> "Thomas Heger" <ttt_...@web.de> wrote in message

The Minutemen and the Redcoats where equally
Armed {Balance-of-Power} -so- Why Should That
Change Today : The Power of the People Should
Equal or Exceed the Power of the Government.
-insures-the-government-serves-the-people-
-not-the-government-enslaves-the-people-
.
Just Say "No" To Obama-U-Nism© ! ~ RHF
-©-big-government-control-&-oppression-
.
.

[Scout]

"RD Sandman" <rdsandman@comcast[remove].net> wrote in message

news:Xns9F6F66192...@216.196.121.131...

Check the links given. You can get 5 pellets in a 3" shell, and 4 in a 2.5"
shell.

>
>> One gives you 4 pellets of triple aught, the other gives you 5.
>
> Not per wiki.

Midway sells them.

Maybe wiki is wrong?

There, corrected it for you. 2.5" shell holds 4, not 3

per http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=533166

>> The Bondarm's Century 2000 derringer, the gun under discussion,
>> accepts up to a 3" .410 shell.
>>
>> Hence the 5 pellets discussed.
>
> Perhaps of 00.......but the heavy load mentioned was 000.

Yep, and as cited above in a 3" shell even according to wiki it's 5 pellets
of 000

>> Of course, you could also load in a .410 with 5 pellets of 0000 buck
>> (0.375). Of course, you're probably going to need to mail order those,
>> and I think only a few manufacturers even make them.
>>
>>:-)
>>
>>>> That's not to say that one is a better gun than the other, but as in
>>>> so much it depends on what you're looking for it to do.
>>>>
>>>> Also the .410 loading is generally reported to have a fairly high 1
>>>> shot stop percentage, since you are usually effectively hitting the
>>>> target multiple times in 1 shot.
>>>
>>> Three, if all impact and you are shooting 000 buck.
>>
>> Actually even if more than 1 hit, you will still be hitting the target
>> multiple times. :-)
>
> Same with two trigger pulls on an SP-101.

Yea, but 2 trigger pulls take longer than 1.

>> However, if that's the case, odds are you didn't hit much of
>> consequence unless you're talking the head.
>
> Both at close range would be effective to center mass....the edge going
> to the .410.

Simply my point, the .410 derringer isn't automatically unsuitable as Dudu
asserted.

>>> You need to fire
>>> both barrels in a Bond 2 shot to equal the number of rounds in an
>>> SP-101.
>>
>> Uh, an SP-101 in .38/.357 only holds 5 rounds. That's equal to the
>> number of pellets of triple or quad aught buck in a 3" shell.
>
> Again, not per wiki on the .410 shotshell. Anyway, I have three SP-101s
> (as you can tell, I hate them), two in .357 and one in .327Federal. The
> latter holds six rounds.

True, but Dudu cited the .38/.357

Again, my comments weren't intended to address all the possible
combinations, only to challenge Dudu's immediate dismissal of the derringer
and the assertion that the SP101 would be drastically better for self
defense.

>> So you would have to fire until empty, reload, and then empty again,
>> your SP101 to get an equal number of lead pieces headed downrange to
>> match those produced by 2 pulls of the Bond's trigger.
>>
>>:-)
>
> Not going to argue with you. You can see what wiki says as well as I
> can.

Yep, and in this case it was wrong. Which is why I provided the cites above
for you.

>>>> Based on reports and testing, the rounds that produce the best one
>>>> shot stops are those that produce a nice hydrostatic shock wave in
>>>> the blood pressure that effectively shuts down the brain for a
>>>> period of time. Now that's not to say they are going to stay down,
>>>> only that they are going to drop on the first shot and stay down for
>>>> a bit. Shotguns do this quite effectively since they tend to dump a
>>>> large part of their energy to a broad section of the body inducing
>>>> such a hydrostatic shock. This, of course, depends upon a reasonably
>>>> direct impact to center mass.
>>>>
>>>> So it all depends on your preferences, choices, and so on.
>>>
>>> This is true.
>>>
>>>> My biggest objection would be the weight of the piece which IMO
>>>> makes it less of a carry piece. On the other hand it's flat which
>>>> again IMO makes it easier to conceal than a revolver.
>>>
>>> True with the Bond derringer, not so with a Taurus Judge or the S&W.
>>
>> Well, I wasn't intending this to be an in-depth review of all the
>> variations, only contesting Dudu's immediate and apparently arbitrary
>> dismissal of the Century 2000 as being unsuitable for self defense,
>> and challenging each of his talking points to establish that.
>
> Dudu tends to run off half cocked over anything you say or suggest so I
> don't pay much attention to him on those points. What got me going was
> mention of the SP-101. It is one of the things he and I agree on. It is
> an excellent gun.

It is, and I'm not challenging that. I'm simply challenging his dismissal of
the derringer as something far worse.

>> About the only point that was really valid was the accuracy issue, but
>> at self defense ranges a gun doesn't need to be particularly accurate
>> hence my noting it as pretty much a moot point.
>
> Fair enough.

I thought so.
:-)

[Brenda Ann]

"Howard Brazee" wrote in message
news:pq2a879bkhnlmo2l0...@4ax.com...

>Democracy In America by De Tocqueville.


Should be required reading by most USAmericans.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've not personally read the book, but perhaps I'll find a copy.

I do know that most in the US need a civics and history refresher course,
since most really have no idea of either, aside from what they read on the
internet, which is dubious at best, and outright untrue at worst.

[Scout]

"RD Sandman" <rdsandman@comcast[remove].net> wrote in message

news:Xns9F6F672CB...@216.196.121.131...

Which is the only one I was discussing. :-)

> Many derringers are quite light hence
> more vicious recoil.

Yep, however, it's really only vicious at the range, when you need it, you
don't really notice the recoil nearly as much......only later when your hand
starts to ache.

[SaPeIsMa]

"Thomas Heger" <ttt...@web.de> wrote in message

news:9ejucr...@mid.individual.net...

> Am 29.09.2011 18:16, schrieb SaPeIsMa:
>>
>> "Thomas Heger" <ttt...@web.de> wrote in message
>> news:9ejg58...@mid.individual.net...
>>> Am 29.09.2011 08:24, schrieb Gray Guest:
>>>>
>>>> The "professionals" only prevail if you fight them on their terms.
>>>>
>>>> Has no one heard of Sun Tzu?
>>>
>>> 'The art of war' old Chinese philosophy of government.
>>>
>>
>> LOL
>> Too bad you only know of the title and haven't' actually read it.
>
> Actually I've not read it, but listened to it as audio-book - in English
> btw, what is a second language for me.
>>
>>> But anyhow: there is a difference between a person and a country.
>>>
>>
>> Really ?
>> Do tell..
>>
> Really!
>
> The difference is cooperation and organisation. A single person cannot
> know, what other people do, only guess. The uncertainty makes it much
> harder for an individual to defend himself than a multitude of organised
> individuals.
>

Try again, bubby
If I want to know what other people do, I have two ways of gathering that
data
1) Observation
2) Asking questions

Also what makes you presume that people people in the US are NOT "organized"
?
Just from the people I shoot with, I have access to a whole slew of
"organizations", national, state and local.

> This means, that individuals should find trustful friends.
>
> In modern times people are too often separated and have not many trusted
> relations.
>

You are making stupid projections on others
Just because it happens to be true for you, does NOT automatically make
it true for others.

> To overcome this, I kind of 'invented' a concept, I call 'tribes': imagine
> 'Indians', but young, modern, western people, equipped with computers and
> other electronic means, that mimic Indians to some extend (wear a feather
> or alike).
>

Actually, you are coming across as a pedantic idiot who seems to really
solely on book knowledge...

> ..
>>
>> Note, you sure spew a lot of words to demonstrate crass and abyssal
>> ignorance..
>> Are you a graduate student in the arts or alleged sciences ?
>
> Actually I live in Germany and am an engineer. American society is
> something I have not too much knowledge, but certain developments really
> frighten me. There are these FEMA camps for example or military grade
> weapons in private hands or in that of policemen. A lot of other things I
> really don't like, but usually the people and have quite a few friends
> from the US.
>

LOL
You have been swallowing stupid propaganda
There are NO "FEMA camps".
And what is a "military grade weapon" ?

And just as a note, since 1934, when the US government started controlling
automatic weapons, which by the way one can still own in the US, there has
been ONLY ONE crime committed with a legally registered machine gun. And
that was by a policeman who killed another cop for cheating on his wife.
Guns in the hands of the law-abiding have NEVER been a problem, except for
governments that do not trust the people they are supposed to serve
Read up Adolph Hitler, if you need a fairly recent (German) example of
that.



As to your last sentence, you might need to re-write it to make it
comprehensible.

[SaPeIsMa]

"Gray Guest" <No_email...@wahoo.com> wrote in message

news:Xns9F6FAE0438EC5We...@88.198.244.100...

I hate to admit it but the dog prefers a velodog
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velo-dog

[Gray Guest]

"Brenda Ann" <newsg...@fullspectrumradio.org> wrote in
news:fOqdnX1jnoQ2jhjT...@giganews.com:

That or the revisionist crap that passes for an education these days.

[Gray Guest]

"Scout" <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote in
news:j630id$gdv$1...@dont-email.me:

Well, would you truly expect Doodoo to be rational or even courteous about
anything?

[Gray Guest]

"Scout" <me4...@verizon.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote in
news:j630ov$hf2$1...@dont-email.me:

Considering what an education costs today, WTF are they teaching? A good
case of malpractice and/or deceptive practices lurks here.

[Gray Guest]

"SaPeIsMa" <SaPe...@HotMail.com> wrote in
news:-tidnWqwO_BfuRjT...@bright.net:

>> To overcome this, I kind of 'invented' a concept, I call 'tribes':
>> imagine 'Indians', but young, modern, western people, equipped with
>> computers and other electronic means, that mimic Indians to some extend
>> (wear a feather or alike).
>>
>
> Actually, you are coming across as a pedantic idiot who seems to really
> solely on book knowledge...

Didn't you mean "incorrect" book knowledge?

[Scout]

"Gray Guest" <No_email...@wahoo.com> wrote in message

news:Xns9F6FEB9EC549BWe...@88.198.244.100...

A very valid point, I will grant you.

[Scout]

"Gray Guest" <No_email...@wahoo.com> wrote in message

news:Xns9F6FEC12C6B30We...@88.198.244.100...

Yes, one can only wonder how a German manages to take history and miss the
whole part about Hitler and what he did to various classes of German
citizens (as well as citizens of other countries).