Albert John Ochsner
Bill Cleere
mentor to Alton Ochsner at the beginning of the latter's
career, but nothing specific about Albert other than
what a fine upstanding guy he was.
This is from a new book, _War Against the Weak:
Eugenics and America's Campaign to Create a New
Master Race_, by Edwin Black (New York & London:
Four Walls Eight Windows, 2003).
*******
[Dr. Harry Clay Sharp, physician at the Indiana Reformatory
at Jeffersonville] was already performing extralegal medical
castrations to cure convicts of masturbation. In early 1899,
he read an article in the "Journal of the American Medical
Association" (JAMA) by distinguished Chicago physician
Albert John Ochsner, who later cofounded the American
College of Surgeons. Dr. Ochsner advocated compulsory
vasectomy of prisoners "to eliminate all habitual criminals
from the possibility of having children." In this way, Ochsner
hoped to reduce not only the numbers of "born criminals"
but also "chronic inebriates, imbeciles, perverts and paupers."
[p. 61]
********
Pretty interesting pedigree for the prestigious Alton
Ochsner, to have as his mentor one of the guiding
lights of the radical eugenics movement which was
the crucial inspiration for Nazi "race science".
-- Bill Cleere
greg
A mixed bag of related goodies for you.
Albert was buried in the Free Thinker's Church Cemetary in Wisconsin. The Free
Thinker's milieu spawned the IARF which set up the Albert Schweitzer College.
Many early Eugenicists were among those Unitarians and "free thinker's"
involved in setting up the IARF.
Head of the IARF and also president of the Friends of Albert Schwietzer
College was Percival Brundage. Brundage was Ike's Director of Budgets. He
later helped the CIA set of it's Miami fronts for Cuban ops.
The Quakers are involved in the IARF. Warner Kloepfer, whose wife and children
visited the Oswald's just prior to Lee's Mexican Hayride, was a member of the
US Eugenics Society. A little known fact about him is that he ran a family
genetics clinic.
Alton Ochsner, like Ruth Paine, had a special thing about Nicuagua. Can we say
Contras?
Alton was also a consultant to the USAF "on the medical side of subversive
matters." I can prove John Pic was, as well. And I don't use the "P" word
lightly.
According to Weberman, the Director of the Ochsner Foundation's Latin American
Relations, one Carlos De La Vega, was also contracted to the State Dept as a
bodyguard for visiting foreign VIPs. This fits neatly into my own research
which leads me to believe the man known as "Steve Kennan", a Quaker from
Philadelphia who met up with Oswald in MC, and who some believe was LICOZY 3,
was working ostensibibly as a traveling interpreter for the State Dept. His
name was not Steve Kennan - though it's close.
Now throw in United Fruit, the Trade Mart and INCA, and all those wonderful
connections to those fine institutions (Reily's, Dulles Bros etc)....
greg
"Bill Cleere" <bcl...@philipkdick.com> wrote in message
news:rxurb.6062$6c3....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Bill Cleere
> Bill,
>
> A mixed bag of related goodies for you.
You do great work, Greg, and I always look forward to it.
> Albert was buried in the Free Thinker's Church Cemetary in Wisconsin. The Free
> Thinker's milieu spawned the IARF which set up the Albert Schweitzer College.
> Many early Eugenicists were among those Unitarians and "free thinker's"
> involved in setting up the IARF.
It sure would be be interesting to know how much
*Alton* Ochsner was influenced by the eugenics
movement. Reitzes posted a couple of pieces of
fawning biographical material from Tulane and
the Ochsner Clinic, containing only this reference:
"When Alton finished at the University of South Dakota
on June 3, 1918, he needed to obtain the qualifications
necessary to become a practicing physician, specifically
a surgeon. At this time Albert John (AJ) Ochsner became
his mentor and started him on the path that would lead
Alton Ochsner to develop into one of the best-trained
surgeons in the United States."
It all sounds no nice, don't it? And yet it avoids
the truth, since we know that AJ Ochsner was a race
improvement researcher--an incipient Mengele. And
he was Alton Ochsner's "mentor".
I highly recommend Edwin Black's book _War Against the
Weak_. It makes a massively documented case that
Nazi racial cleansing theory was not just influenced by
Americans but *started* here.
> Head of the IARF and also president of the Friends of Albert Schwietzer
> College was Percival Brundage. Brundage was Ike's Director of Budgets. He
> later helped the CIA set of it's Miami fronts for Cuban ops.
>
> The Quakers are involved in the IARF. Warner Kloepfer, whose wife and children
> visited the Oswald's just prior to Lee's Mexican Hayride, was a member of the
> US Eugenics Society. A little known fact about him is that he ran a family
> genetics clinic.
This connection, between the eugenics movement and
the JFK conspiracy milieu, looks more sinister all the time.
> Alton Ochsner, like Ruth Paine, had a special thing about Nicuagua. Can we say
> Contras?
>
> Alton was also a consultant to the USAF "on the medical side of subversive
> matters." I can prove John Pic was, as well. And I don't use the "P" word
> lightly.
That "medical side of subversive matters" is one of
the strangest of the strange phrases used about all
of these upstanding pillars of the community.
> According to Weberman, the Director of the Ochsner Foundation's Latin American
> Relations, one Carlos De La Vega, was also contracted to the State Dept as a
> bodyguard for visiting foreign VIPs. This fits neatly into my own research
> which leads me to believe the man known as "Steve Kennan", a Quaker from
> Philadelphia who met up with Oswald in MC, and who some believe was LICOZY 3,
> was working ostensibibly as a traveling interpreter for the State Dept. His
> name was not Steve Kennan - though it's close.
>
> Now throw in United Fruit, the Trade Mart and INCA, and all those wonderful
> connections to those fine institutions (Reily's, Dulles Bros etc)....
>
> greg
Thanks again. Keep it coming.
-- Bill Cleere
AnthonyMarsh
I too am interested in Alton Oschner, but don't know that much about
him. Can you provide any evidence of any of the following concepts?
1. Oschner allowed his facilities to be used for MK/ULTRA or related
experiments?
2. Oschner employed Mary Sherman and she was doing research on the viral
cause of cancer with David Ferrie?
3. Oschner gave money to Cuban exile groups.
TIA.
--
Anthony Marsh
The Puzzle Palace http://www.boston.quik.com/amarsh
Bill Cleere
greg
Not proven. But a consultant to the USAF on such matters, he certainly was,
and in that role, had a close association with Wilford Hall (USAF) Medical
Centre - one of the hospitals where John Pic, Jr was in charge of pathology
while human radiation experiments were being conducted. The association
between the Ochner Clinic and Wilford Hall continues today...
> > 2. Oschner employed Mary Sherman and she was doing research on the viral
> > cause of cancer with David Ferrie?
Have never looked into this, nor read Haslam's book. She was most definitely a
bone cancer expert, but that's about all I know of her, except details of her
death.
All I can add is that this is also one of the foundations of Judyjth's
account.
> > 3. Oschner gave money to Cuban exile groups.
His son told Weberman that he (Alton) knew Ferrie and everyone else in NO who
was anticommunist. I have no evidence he gave money to Cuban exiles, but hey,
Gen Walker 'fessed up the WC that he gave the staggering amount of $5.00 to
the DRE. If Walker did, Ochsner had just as strong a motive (though I do think
the good General was being ahem... modest and left a few zeros off) why not
Ochner?
greg
Howard Platzman
> subversive matters." I can prove John Pic was, as well. And I don't use the "P" word lightly.
-- I'd like to see it, Greg.
> > > > That "medical side of subversive matters" is one of
> > > > the strangest of the strange phrases used about all
> > > > of these upstanding pillars of the community.
-- Gerry Hemming says that Ochsner ran an "assassination school for
doctors" in Latin America.
-- He was INCA's grand mover. On the INCA record "Portrait in Red," he
is troduced to give his "firsthand" impression of Oswald. Was this a
slip?
-- Judyth and Lee visited Ochsner several times at the Charity
Hospital in New Orleans.
-- Ochsner was friends with the Texas crowd, including Murchison,
Hunt.
-- He sat on the board of a Florida bank owned by Sen. George Mathers
who helped get funding for Judyth's lab work in her late teens. I have
a letter from him. He is still alive, a reckless choice for Judyth to
have made in concocting her story. Or an honest one.
-- Bill Davy places Ochsner at the East Louisiana State Mental
Hospital, a hotbed of MK-ULTRA activity. MK-ULTRA is best known for
its experiments in mind-altering drugs, but, as Greg can verify, it
also had a bioweapons component. That's where Shaw, Ferrie, and Oswald
were headed when they stopped in Clinton.
The coup de grace:
-- In 1996, THE ARRB RELEASED AN FBI MEMO QUOTING GURVICH: GARRISON
INTENDED TO INDICT OCHSNER AND WILLIAM REILY, AMONG OTHERS, FOR
CONSPIRACY TO ASSASSINATE THE PRESIDENT. How could this pillar of the
community end up paired with the employer of Lee and Judyth? (Can
anyone spell c-o-v-e-r j-o-b-s?)
> > > > > > > > 1. Oschner allowed his facilities to be used for MK/ULTRA or related> > > experiments?
>
> Not proven. But a consultant to the USAF on such matters, he certainly was,
> and in that role, had a close association with Wilford Hall (USAF) Medical
> Centre - one of the hospitals where John Pic, Jr was in charge of pathology
> while human radiation experiments were being conducted. The association
> between the Ochner Clinic and Wilford Hall continues today...
-- At the University of Florida, Judyth worked with radiation tags for
cancerous specimens. This training was integral to her project. The
university had to get a special "human use" permit for this activity.
The permit was procured in 1962 and lapsed in 1964.
> > > 2. Oschner employed Mary Sherman and she was doing research on the viral
> > > cause of cancer with David Ferrie?
-- She may have, but Haslam and Judyth link both of them,
independently, to Ochsner's kill-Castro project, operating out of two
rogue labs.
> Have never looked into this, nor read Haslam's book. She was most definitely a
> bone cancer expert, but that's about all I know of her, except details of her
> death.
>
-- Haslam's book is a must read. Judyth and I discovered it well into
our discussions and I have kept her immediate responses to it in a
series of e-mails as she read it for the first time. Though it is not
proof that she had the book before, she did get an Amazon.com receipt
for it that is evidence for Haslam's book being previously unknown to
her.
> All I can add is that this is also one of the foundations of Judyjth's
> account.
-- You bet.
> > > 3. Oschner gave money to Cuban exile groups.
-- He financed Albert Osborne's anti-Communist Latin American
newsletter. Osborne's name was kept secret for years, possibly because
his Mexican tourist number was one digit from Oswald's. He was a CIA
agent who claimed there was indeed a right-wing a conspiracy involving
those Paul Hoch-hated familiar figures.
-- Ochsner also funded trips by Dr. Sherman to Latin America where she
gave anti-Communist speeches. This is something not even Haslam knew.
I wish I had the source at my fingertips, but it will take a little
digging.
-- He was also friends with "Wild Bill" Donovan, who headed the OSS,
precursor to the CIA. Both were names to the board of the American
Cancer Society in 1949.
-- He was friends with and physician to Peron and other Latin American
dictators.
-- He was a friend and business associate of Clay Shaw.
All of Judyth's attackers avoid Oschsner like the plague, mostly
because they know nothing and won't do the research Greg has done.
You can't address her claims while ignoring Ochsner. He is a
larger-than-life figure who did much more than "consult." Reitzes
published a puff piece.
> His son told Weberman that he (Alton) knew Ferrie and everyone
else in NO who
> was anticommunist.
-- I would kill to see this!
I have no evidence he gave money to Cuban exiles, but hey,
> Gen Walker 'fessed up the WC that he gave the staggering amount of $5.00 to
> the DRE. If Walker did, Ochsner had just as strong a motive
-- He wanted to keep Latin American "safe for democracy" -- and free
enterprise. That meant free from Castro. By any means necessary.
Howard
Bill Cleere
john.m...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote in message news:<3fb65e20...@129.250.170.82>...
> What Bill seems to understand is that eugenics was considered
> "enlightened" and "progressive" at the time.
No, I don't "seem" to understand that. I understand
that it was seen as "enlightened" and "progressive"
by some people, and that others *at the time*, such
as Walter Lippmann, condemned the beliefs and activities
of just such people as Albert Ochsner as dangerous and
immoral.
If what you meant to say was that the
organized movement to sterilize, segregate and/or
kill "undesirables" was not condemned by many people
at the time, you are completely wrong. Mr. Black's
book makes it abundantly clear that the eugenicists
cannot be excused on those grounds.
The voters beat back their attempts to legislate
forcible eugenic programs all over the country,
time and time again. There is no excuse for
those who kept trying to put these programs through,
often illegally.
> It was pretty mainstream
> in academic circles and among "reformers."
There were plenty of acadmics and "reformers"
who saw it for what it was and called it what
it was. There is no excuse for those who did
not. They were not innocent deluded idealists.
There goal was to purge the earth of those
parts of humanity of which they did not approve.
> Which should warn us to distrust views that are fashionable among
> academics
Nice autoflame
> and reformers
>
> BTW, at least a few people here were probably supporters of some
> Communist regime (maybe several) in the 60s.
Really? Who? Have you got a list of names in
your pocket?
While you're at it, how many people in your coterie
were supporters of Fascist regimes in the 60's?
or 70's? or 80's?
> That looks every bit as bad now as eugenics.
Noted that you have no answer whatever to the
question of whether Doctor Alton Ochsner was
inluenced by the eugenic theories of his mentor
Albert Ochsner, a leader in the movement which
was the most important single factor in convincing
Hitler, not that undesirable races *should* be
eliminated, but that they *could* be eliminated.
> .John
-- Bill Cleere
greg
> > subversive matters." I can prove John Pic was, as well. And I don't use the "P" word lightly.
>
>
> -- I'd like to see it, Greg.
Pic, at the time, was in the Port Security Unit of the Coast Guard. Immediately prior to that, he had a four month stint (January to April, 1952), at the US Naval Training Station, Bainbridge, Maryland. His testimony before the Warren Commission does not reveal what he did there. The Commission on Streptococcal and Staphylococcal Diseases which ran from 1941 to 1973 may hold the key. The Commission was set up as part of the Armed Forces Epidemiological Board (AFEB).
In 1952, the Director of the Commission was Charles A Rammelkamp, a specialist in streptococcal and other autoimmune diseases, including atypical pneumonia.
Rammelkamp’s contributions to WW11 in fact, came about because of outbreaks of autoimmune diseases in various military bases. He was thus recruited to work for the Commission on Acute Respiratory Diseases at Fort Bragg, North Carolina.
Such outbreaks continued after the war, but acute poststreptococcal received little attention from the Commission until an epidemic occurred at Bainbridge Naval Training Center, Maryland, in 1951 and 1952. Rammelkamp investigated this epidemic, which confirmed in his mind that certain types of group A streptococci were nephritogenic.
If the US was interested in producing agents it could use in biological warfare, it was equally interested in protecting itself from the very same agents, and the two concepts became inseparable. Thus, the research conducted by Rammelkamp and the commissions he was involved with, certainly had military use one way or the other.
Which brings us back to John Pic Jr, who, as shown, was stationed at the Bainbridge Naval Training Center during the epidemic. It comes as no surprise then to learn that from September, 1953 until April, 1954, Pic was stationed at the Naval Hospital in Portsmouth, Va.
The Department of Defense Report on it's Search for Human Radiation Experiment Records tells us that the Naval Hospital in Portsmouth was involved from an undetermined date until 1960 in evaluating the effect of parabromdylamine maleate on the thyroidal uptake of radiation in untreated hyperthyroid euthyroid patients; from an undetermined date until 1959 it was involved in comparing precordial isotope-dilution cardiac output values with those obtained by the Fick method and; from an undetermined date until 1960 it was involved in the study of tendon reflexes as a diagnostic aid in myxedematous patients. In the first two areas of experimentation, various doses of radiation were administered orally or intravenously so that the effects on various organs could be studied. In the latter experiments, a fifteen microcurie source of 1-131, shielded with lead, was attached to the foot of the patient., and a sodium iodide thallium activated crystal was connected to a ratemeter so that readings could be taken. It should be stressed here that myxedematous patients are those who, through iodine deficiencies relating to the thyroid, have stunted growth and cretinism. These patients could not have given informed consent.
John Pic Jr, it seems, was being trained in particular areas of medicine dealing with chemical, biological and radiological warfare.
On the 1st of February, 1956, Pic joined the USAF. In October 1958, he received orders to join APO 323, Tachikawa, Japan where he was a lab technician. The USAF hospital in Tachikawa took casualties from all the Asian skirmishes dating back to at least Korea.
In August 1962 he was transferred to Wilford Hall Air Force Hospital, Lackland Air Force Base as Non-Commissioned Officer in Charge of the Special Procedures Branch, Department of Pathology. Willford Hall, like Portsmouth Naval Hospital, also came up in the DoD Report on Human Radiation Experiments. Although the records of what went on at Wilford Hall are unclear in precise details, it seems to have revolved around cancer and thyroid experiments. The Pathology Department of any hospital conducting such experiments would necessarily have a major involvement.
****************************************
There is more, but that's being unveiled at Pittsburgh (assuming what I sent clears US Customs in time).
greg
debhar...@yahoo.com
Looks like you hit a nerve with the .jackass...always a good thing.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Ochsner associated with the "polio
pioneers" ["pioneers" being a word that's taken on a *whole new
meaning* recently thanks to bubba bush, I just can't help but note]
program of innoculating the entire second grade in the U.S. with the
then-experimental Salk polio vaccine in the early fifties (about 1953
or 54, wasn't it...)? And isn't there an on-going debate re the
vaccine and the spread of aids (due to the "monkey" hosts used to
develop the virus/vaccine)? This sort of nation-wide experiment (with
long, long-term implications) might have been invaluable for a
eugenicist, seems to me. I may be way off-base re the Ochsner
connection, so I'll accept correction, just this once.
The Ochsner/eugenics question is interesting, as is Ochxner's
connection to INCA and the "Oswald/DRE" operation in New Orleans in
the summer of 1963. But how do you get from eugenics to the JFK
assassination?
On 15 Nov 2003 16:20:35 -0800, bcl...@philipkdick.com (Bill Cleere)
wrote:
AnthonyMarsh
>
> Looks like you hit a nerve with the .jackass...always a good thing.
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Ochsner associated with the "polio
> pioneers" ["pioneers" being a word that's taken on a *whole new
> meaning* recently thanks to bubba bush, I just can't help but note]
> program of innoculating the entire second grade in the U.S. with the
> then-experimental Salk polio vaccine in the early fifties (about 1953
> or 54, wasn't it...)? And isn't there an on-going debate re the
> vaccine and the spread of aids (due to the "monkey" hosts used to
> develop the virus/vaccine)? This sort of nation-wide experiment (with
> long, long-term implications) might have been invaluable for a
> eugenicist, seems to me. I may be way off-base re the Ochsner
> connection, so I'll accept correction, just this once.
>
Pretty close. I seem to remember that it had something to do with US
attempts to develop a race-specific disease. Operation Triage.
Bill Cleere
> debhar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > Looks like you hit a nerve with the .jackass...always a good thing.
> >
> > Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Ochsner associated with the "polio
> > pioneers" ["pioneers" being a word that's taken on a *whole new
> > meaning* recently thanks to bubba bush, I just can't help but note]
> > program of innoculating the entire second grade in the U.S. with the
> > then-experimental Salk polio vaccine in the early fifties (about 1953
> > or 54, wasn't it...)? And isn't there an on-going debate re the
> > vaccine and the spread of aids (due to the "monkey" hosts used to
> > develop the virus/vaccine)? This sort of nation-wide experiment (with
> > long, long-term implications) might have been invaluable for a
> > eugenicist, seems to me. I may be way off-base re the Ochsner
> > connection, so I'll accept correction, just this once.
> >
>
> Pretty close. I seem to remember that it had something to do with US
> attempts to develop a race-specific disease. Operation Triage.
Any recollection of where one find out more about that?
-- Bill Cleere
"I prefer the pleasure of writing bits of nonsense to that of
wearing an embroidered coat which costs 800 francs." (Stendahl)
Bill Cleere
news:no1prv4akuva9jj96...@4ax.com...
>
> Looks like you hit a nerve with the .jackass...always a good thing.
Yes and no. It's always satisfying, but of course I've spanked him
so hard for so long that the novelty has worn off. More important,
toasting macadamianuts is only truly worthwhile if it's done by
people who know there was a conspiracy working together against
their common nemesis, instead of battling each other.
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Ochsner associated with the "polio
> pioneers" ["pioneers" being a word that's taken on a *whole new
> meaning* recently thanks to bubba bush, I just can't help but note]
> program of innoculating the entire second grade in the U.S. with the
> then-experimental Salk polio vaccine in the early fifties (about 1953
> or 54, wasn't it...)?
Yup. I vaguely remember the rather surreal scene the
day I got mine.
> And isn't there an on-going debate re the
> vaccine and the spread of aids (due to the "monkey" hosts used to
> develop the virus/vaccine)? This sort of nation-wide experiment (with
> long, long-term implications) might have been invaluable for a
> eugenicist, seems to me. I may be way off-base re the Ochsner
> connection, so I'll accept correction, just this once.
You won't get one from me, because I don't know enough
about it, although I've read enough to make me more than
a little suspicious. I hope someone who knows can chime in.
> The Ochsner/eugenics question is interesting, as is Ochxner's
> connection to INCA and the "Oswald/DRE" operation in New Orleans in
> the summer of 1963. But how do you get from eugenics to the JFK
> assassination?
As you noted in your other post in this thread, John Bevilaqua has
a thought or two on that topic. The connection is deep. There
are many, many overlaps, for example, between the Eugenicists
and the World Anti-Communist League.
I'm sorry. I'm asking for information in this thread, not having
much to give. But I think these connections are possibly
very significant and worth looking into.
-- Bill Cleere
"I prefer the pleasure of writing bits of nonsense to that of
wearing an embroidered coat which costs 800 francs." (Stendahl)
>
AnthonyMarsh
>
> "AnthonyMarsh" <ama...@quik.com> wrote in message
> news:3FBD038F...@quik.com...
> > debhar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >
> > > Looks like you hit a nerve with the .jackass...always a good thing.
> > >
> > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Ochsner associated with the "polio
> > > pioneers" ["pioneers" being a word that's taken on a *whole new
> > > meaning* recently thanks to bubba bush, I just can't help but note]
> > > program of innoculating the entire second grade in the U.S. with the
> > > then-experimental Salk polio vaccine in the early fifties (about 1953
> > > or 54, wasn't it...)? And isn't there an on-going debate re the
> > > vaccine and the spread of aids (due to the "monkey" hosts used to
> > > develop the virus/vaccine)? This sort of nation-wide experiment (with
> > > long, long-term implications) might have been invaluable for a
> > > eugenicist, seems to me. I may be way off-base re the Ochsner
> > > connection, so I'll accept correction, just this once.
> > >
> >
> > Pretty close. I seem to remember that it had something to do with US
> > attempts to develop a race-specific disease. Operation Triage.
>
> Any recollection of where one find out more about that?
I don't know if there is anything online. Try searching for articles
about Ewen Cameron.
I'll see if I have anything on my HD.
>
> -- Bill Cleere
>
> "I prefer the pleasure of writing bits of nonsense to that of
> wearing an embroidered coat which costs 800 francs." (Stendahl)
Bill Cleere
Ahhh....the ubiquitous and iniquitous Dr. Cameron. I know where
to go now. There's an *extensive* bibliography on that devil.
Thanks -- I need to do some brushing up and report back.
Here's my list of basic sources:
Constantine, Alex. Virtual Government : CIA Mind Control Operations in
America. 1997.
Gillmor, Don. I swear by Apollo : Dr. Ewen Cameron and the CIA-brainwashing
experiments. Montréal : Eden Press, 1987.
Gray, Peter F. "Lie society." The Washington Monthly May 1992: 36-40.
Includes a discussion of MKULTRA.
Lausch, Erwin. Manipulation; dangers and benefits of brain research.
Translated from the German by Oliver Coburn. New York, Viking Press, 1974.
Lee, Martin A. and Bruce Shlain. Acid Dreams: The Complete Social History of
LSD: The CIA, the Sixties, and Beyond. New York: Grove Press, 1992.
Marks, John. The Search for the "Manchurian Candidate": The CIA and Mind
Control. New York: Times Books, 1979.
Thomas, Gordon. Journey into madness. New York : Bantam Books, 1989.
Weinstein, Harvey. Psychiatry and the CIA : victims of mind control.
Washington, DC : American Psychiatric Press, 1990.
Previously published as A father, a son, and the CIA. Toronto : James
Lorimer & Co., Publishers, 1988.
debhar...@earthlink.net
Sorry. I don't buy into "why can't we all just get along". I don't
suffer fools gladly, regardless of position on "conspiracy". In fact,
self-described "conspiracy theorists" have probably done about as much
as .jackass to lead this case down the path to hell (i had a few words
to say on this in a post called "history's illegitimate child".)
Of course, the fact that 75% of the "cts" posting at any given time
are .jackass lackeys flings an unquantifiable monkeywrench into the
mix. As soon as one is outed, another springs up in its place.
They're all some variation of the Reitzes/ FAT...@b.com species.
(They do seem to be getting more and more stupid and psychotic.....)
steve
i'v never read it, but there is a book called Mary, Ferrie, and the
Monkey Virus. it might be Ferrie, Mary, and the Monkey Virus, i cant
remember. its about Mary Sherman, Dr. Oschners associate, and David
Ferri, the story about what they were reasearching with regards to
cancer, and where the experiments went.
Caeruleo
debhar...@earthlink.net wrote:
> Sorry. I don't buy into "why can't we all just get along". I don't
> suffer fools gladly, regardless of position on "conspiracy". In fact,
> self-described "conspiracy theorists" have probably done about as much
> as .jackass to lead this case down the path to hell (i had a few words
> to say on this in a post called "history's illegitimate child".)
>
> Of course, the fact that 75% of the "cts" posting at any given time
> are .jackass lackeys flings an unquantifiable monkeywrench into the
> mix. As soon as one is outed, another springs up in its place.
> They're all some variation of the Reitzes/ FAT...@b.com species.
> (They do seem to be getting more and more stupid and psychotic.....)
Ah yes, yet another imagined Usenet "conspiracy." "75%" indeed, how
utterly laughable. Your credibility regarding objectively discussing
conspiracies of ANY type has currently reached its lowest ebb in your
entire posting history, & is about to sink even lower in the following
days, as more & more people learn that you did indeed, just as
predicted, refuse to even *attempt* to prove you haven't been lying all
along about your true identity, & in stark contrast to anyone who
posesses even an average amount of honesty & integrity, pretended the
opportunity was never even offered.
You just damaged your overall credibility more seriously than ever
before.
--
"During the school year I am a teacher, but during June & July I am a CIA
operative." - me, on 6-11-03.
Bill Cleere
That's the title. Ed Haslam is the author. Lots of
interesting material in the book:
-- Bill Cleere
Howard Platzman
> > Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Ochsner associated with the "polio
> > pioneers" ["pioneers" being a word that's taken on a *whole new
> > meaning* recently thanks to bubba bush, I just can't help but note]
> > program of innoculating the entire second grade in the U.S. with the
> > then-experimental Salk polio vaccine in the early fifties (about 1953
> > or 54, wasn't it...)?
>
> Yup. I vaguely remember the rather surreal scene the
> day I got mine.>
Alton Ochsner was a proponent of the vaccine and its safety -- despite
muted but heated debate over whether it was contaminated, specifically
with the "monkey virus," SV-40. The way researcher Ed Haslam tells it,
Dr. Mary Sherman was working to purify the vaccine. Sherman was an
Ochsner Clinic star, specialty: bone cancer. According to Haslam, she
tried to kill the virus by subjecting it to radiation. She succeeded
only in morphing it into stronger, indeed carcinogenic, form. It was
this dangerous substance that Judyth was working. She and Sherman saw
its value as a bioweapon.
> > And isn't there an on-going debate re the
> > vaccine and the spread of aids (due to the "monkey" hosts used to
> > develop the virus/vaccine)? This sort of nation-wide experiment (with
> > long, long-term implications) might have been invaluable for a
> > eugenicist, seems to me. I may be way off-base re the Ochsner
> > connection, so I'll accept correction, just this once.
-- Haslam's father was a colleague of Dr. Sherman's. When he was a
kid, Ed sat on her knee. Ochsner was so convinced of the safety of the
vaccine that he had his own grandchildren inoculated. As I understand
it, one died, one got polio. I can't recall if my source for this
claim is Haslam or not. In any case, Ochsner was a great believer in
action, damn official approvals. Among his friends: Murchison, Hunt,
Peron, Somoza, Bill Donovan, Smathers.
> You won't get one from me, because I don't know enough
> about it, although I've read enough to make me more than
> a little suspicious. I hope someone who knows can chime in.
>
> > The Ochsner/eugenics question is interesting, as is Ochxner's
> > connection to INCA and the "Oswald/DRE" operation in New Orleans in
> > the summer of 1963. But how do you get from eugenics to the JFK
> > assassination?
-- Eugenics? No connection. Ochsner, Sherman, Shaw, Ferrie, and
Judyth/Lee were involved in a kill-Castro project which was aborted.
Judyth cannot say that any of these individuals favored "Plan B" -
killing Kennedy as an alternative. Garrison got the right people, just
the wrong plot. There's a reasons he seriously considered indicting
Ochsner for the JFK assassination. Unfortunately, he couldn't make the
connection, because there might not have been any. The money for the
labs came in large part from elements that went on to murder the
president. The money was Texas money.
Altasrecrd
Judyth read Haslam's book and concocted her tale.
It isn't a coinkydink that she started talking about Mary Sherman and a
volatile cocktail after Haslam's book came out.
But deep down inside you know that. Don't you, Howard the Fool?
Hey Howard The Idiot Chimp, tell us all about the first time Judyth told you
about about Billie Sol Estes........
"I guess you could say I'm the redemption of the fat man. A guy will be
watching me on TV and see that I don't look in any better shape than he is.
'Hey Maude,' he'll holler, 'Get a load of this guy and he's a twenty-game
winner.' " - Mickey Lolich
debhar...@yahoo.com
Is there any conspiracy book/theory she *hasn't* incorporated? She's
a walking encyclopedia of hysterical theories and junk science.
On 25 Nov 2003 09:30:17 GMT, altas...@aol.comnojunk (Altasrecrd)
wrote:
Howard Platzman
> Judyth read Haslam's book and concocted her tale.
-- Baseless charge from a bottomless pit of ignorance.
>
> It isn't a coinkydink that she started talking about Mary Sherman and a
> volatile cocktail after Haslam's book came out.
-- She did? Please check the date on Haslam's book, Matt. Don't you
think missing by a factor of five years is sufficient to show that you
are incompetent?
> But deep down inside you know that. Don't you, Howard the Fool?
-- The name-caller. And all so imaginative!
> Hey Howard The Idiot Chimp, tell us all about the first time Judyth told you
> about about Billie Sol Estes........
>
-- Where is a censor when you really need one? John, help me, please;
this guy is catching all my errors and he's being really mean about
it, too. Wah.
Howard
Howard Platzman
> Is there any conspiracy book/theory she *hasn't* incorporated? She's
> a walking encyclopedia of hysterical theories and junk science.
-- What a pair? Hart and Allison. You guys know each other? Hart
writes much better, but they're both suitably matched in the maturity
department. Once again, Judtyh is both an idiot and a walking
encyclopedia. A remarkable woman, indeed.
But, consider: if she were either, do you think Matt Allison would be
invited into her inner circle? Let's see. As a loon, she would need
his patina of sanity and stability, I guess. And as a brilliant,
speed-reading synthesizer, she would need the humanizing touch of the
common man. Why even bother with Martin and me? I guess she
underestimated Matt's ability to ferret out phony stories like her
going from high school to New Orleans. Oh, I forget, that was Matt's
"hysterical theory."
Howard