ATHEISTS, AGNOSTICS AND NON BELIEVERS ARE THE TRUE CRIMINALS OF THE WORLD COMMUNITY
Richard Dawkins
COMMUNITY
By: Robert T. Lee
God commands all mankind in the TEN COMMANDMENTS to: "Honor your father and
your mother," "You shall not murder," "You shall not commit adultery," "You
shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor,"
and etc, (Exodus 20:1-17). Is any atheist, agnostic or unbeliever foolish
enough to publicly deny the decorousness of those laws?
OK, there's no disagreement with the fact that those Laws are righteous and
honorable.
But since atheists deny God's existence, they don't have the ability to
realize that God is the Author of the TEN COMMANDMENTS. This forces them to
attribute their authorship to a human. But since atheism is opposed to the
decorous TEN COMMANDMENTS, even while being force to deceptively think they
were authored by a human, this clearly shows evidence that atheism was and
is incapable of authoring, realizing and honoring such decorous and noble
laws. If in the view of the atheist the TEN COMMANDMENTS were authored by a
human, and since it is rightly established that those laws are decorous and
honorable, but are hated by atheists, and atheists are said to comprise the
most "educated" segment of the human race, then it would have taken a more
decorous and honorable human to author them than even the most highly
educated atheist.
Atheism, by means of its opposition to the decorous TEN COMMANDMENTS is none
other than an antithetical principle to God and His Holy Law. This
antithesis is the actual principle at the heart of atheism's inability to
love such decorous laws as : "honor your father and your mother," "You shall
not kill," and etc. Therefore, it is right to conclude that atheism is none
other than raw depravity - the diabolical principle at work in people who
dishonor their parents, murder, lie and commit every other moral crime.
So now you realize that it is atheists (and other nonbelievers) who are in
favor of putting their "terminally ill" parents to death; who are in favor
of murdering innocent human embryos and fetuses; who are perpetuating
homosexuality, lesbianism, bestiality, pornography, pedophilia and etc; who
are responsible for all the violence in the movie industry; who are
responsible for all the smut on the web; who bear false witness against the
existence of God; who bear the false testimony that the earth came into
being by a cataclysmic explosion; who bear the false testimony of evolution;
who bear the false testimony that man descended from the ape; who worship
the creature rather than the Creator; who are responsible for all the moral
decline in America and the world community.
Atheists and all other nonbelievers in the true God - regardless of their
level of "education" and position in society - are therefore the true
criminals of the world community and if there is a sane government, it
should treat them accordingly.
--
~There are no true atheists in Christian newsgroups.~
"Evolutionists are sadistic scientists who hurry to hunt down errors instead
of establishing the truth.~
~"If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that
it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and
therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark
would be without meaning.~
Richard Dawkins
thrill and a cheap orgasm (or is that the other way around, I never can
decide).
Thank GOD for the additional income ...
With Love
Drippy Dick
Richard Dawkins
"Richard Dawkins" <the14th...@littleboxes.nl> wrote in message
news:1145830267.3...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
anti-Christian intellectuals. Ordinary skeptics aren't driven to skepticism
by a hatred of Christianity. There are many atheists who sincerely don't
believe in the existence of god for a variety of reasons. Some have even
expressed the desire to believe in that which they honestly can't
intellectually accept. When a skeptic, who doesn't have an axe to grind,
sees sense in your argument, he will acknowledge it. When an anti-Christian
fundy such as yourself sees sense in your argument, he'll do anything he can
to shut you up, including making threats and following through with them.
That said, the term 'Skeptic', as it appears in this essay, refers to the
anti-Christian fundy.
Richard Dawkins
about 14 which is in any way nasty - I just found out he's NOT one of
those who have slept with my wife, in fact he refused her OUTRIGHT,
saying what a good chap I was and that she should be ashamed of herself
for holding back most of the cash from me.
14 is great, a lovely bloke, I won't hear a word said against him
again, so if I DO you can be SURE it's a sock-puppet or someone who HAS
slept with my wife who's jealous of 14 and me for NOT having done so.
Drippy
Dichard Rawkins
news:TzQ2g.59$KO6....@news.uswest.net...
> <snip infantile hateful ignorant bigotry>
Dick, does your mother know her little boy is posting on usenet when he
should be doing his spelling and grammar homework?
tango
asshole's religious beliefs!
Richard Dawkins
"tango" <mader...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1145848664.2...@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> FUCK OFF! All the wars in the world are rageing on because of some
> asshole's religious beliefs!
>
marginalizing religion and religious, and seeks to remove images of God from
the public.
After its iconoclasm has eliminated all images of God, it goes after all
mention of God in the culture, till religion has become only a private
affair, never mentioned outside the chapel, church, or synagogue.
Eventually, the iconoclasm of the atheistically driven culture and/or
government will no longer tolerate even the presence of the chapel, church,
or synagogue, destroying them or converting them to serve state purposes.
The remaining faithful are driven underground, only to be persecuted,
arrested, tortured, murdered.
Unfortunately, after the iconoclasm of atheism has rid the culture of all
public and private images of God and vestiges of belief, atheism realizes
that millions of images of God still exist:
in the eyes of the innocent the image of the Creator is still visible.
At which point atheism, with demonic fury, reveals itself for what it truly
is: Demonic. And atheism the kills with a fury that can only be called
demonic:
http://www.marysremnant.org/Friends/DBK/BKAthKills.html
╙«rrock»╖
God is a fact.
Religions are beliefs and acts of men.
Wars are also conscious decisions made by men.
So, if you really don't want wars, you would not war.
The statement you make below is contrary to such an attitude.
tango wrote:
> FUCK OFF! All the wars in the world are rageing on because of some
> asshole's religious beliefs!
--
ἀπὸ μηχανῆς θεός ápo mēchanēs theós
Speaking of Angels -
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007G1434/102-3602972-5466516
bob young
Richard Dawkins wrote:
> "tango" <mader...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1145848664.2...@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > FUCK OFF! All the wars in the world are rageing on because of some
> > asshole's religious beliefs!
> >
> When Atheism becomes the driving force in government, it starts by
> marginalizing religion and religious, and seeks to remove images of God from
> the public.
>
> After its iconoclasm has eliminated all images of God, it goes after all
> mention of God in the culture, till religion has become only a private
> affair, never mentioned outside the chapel, church, or synagogue.
>
> Eventually, the iconoclasm of the atheistically driven culture and/or
> government will no longer tolerate even the presence of the chapel, church,
> or synagogue, destroying them or converting them to serve state purposes.
>
> The remaining faithful are driven underground, only to be persecuted,
> arrested, tortured, murdered.
>
> Unfortunately, after the iconoclasm of atheism has rid the culture of all
> public and private images of God and vestiges of belief, atheism realizes
> that millions of images of God still exist:
Never a problem. Were all the gods to be 'destroyed' by common sense,
just leave the lunatic fringe alone for a while
and they will dreamed up a few new ones.
They have been doing it since back in The Stone Age
There are two main groups of people,
One that craves to be amazed
and another that is always ready to oblige
dragomir kollaric
Richard Dawkins in <TzQ2g.59$KO6....@news.uswest.net> wrote:
> ATHEISTS, AGNOSTICS AND NON BELIEVERS ARE THE TRUE CRIMINALS OF THE WORLD
> COMMUNITY
>
>
> By: Robert T. Lee
>
> God commands all mankind in the TEN COMMANDMENTS to:
> "Honor your father and your mother,"
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 if you don't.
Knowing such passages are in God's HOLY WORD, I do understand, that
people become "Atheists". And people like yourself don't help them to
find God.
<SNIP>
Dragomir Kollaric
--
LAWYER: Before you signed the death certificate, had you taken the pulse?
PATHOLOGIST: No.
LAWYER: Did you check for breathing?
PATHOLOGIST: No
LAWYER: So, when you signed the death certificate you weren't sure that he
was dead, were you?
PATHOLOGIST: Well, let me put it this way. The man's brain was sitting in a
jar on my desk. But I guess it is possible he could be out
there practising law somewhere.
bob young
dragomir kollaric wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:28:55 -0700,
> Richard Dawkins in <TzQ2g.59$KO6....@news.uswest.net> wrote:
>
> > ATHEISTS, AGNOSTICS AND NON BELIEVERS ARE THE TRUE CRIMINALS OF THE WORLD
> > COMMUNITY
> >
> >
> > By: Robert T. Lee
> >
> > God commands all mankind in the TEN COMMANDMENTS to:
> > "Honor your father and your mother,"
>
> Deuteronomy 21:18-21 if you don't.
>
> Knowing such passages are in God's HOLY WORD,
They are no such thing,
they are the words of early temple dwellers and preachers.
No gods ever said anything. Only man.
Sorry if it spoils your day.
Bob
Pastor Frank
news:444C641F...@netvigator.com...
saying is: Were all ideals to be destroyed by common sense.....the lunatic
fringe will dream up a few new ideals and their representation, i.e. Jesus
Christ.
The god(s) of YOUR definition don't exist, Bob Young, and all your
bellowing won't change that fact.
bob young
Pastor Frank wrote:
Then it is high time to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that your god doeas
exist Frankie.
Until you can do that keep your silly nasty remarks to yourself.
Always the same,
use logical arguments against superstitions
and the supertitious rise to the occasion and:
Insult.
As they say "Every picture tells a story"
<GROAN>
Pastor Frank
become fully manifested in Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary. This love
needs no further "proof". You either accept and identify with this love, or
you keep demeaning and denying it. It's entirely YOUR choice.
bob young
Pastor Frank wrote:
Right then - He don't exist, so in that case neither does His Only Begotten
Son.
You screwed up again Frank, sorry to say
Pastor Frank
the NT Bible are wrong. Your assertion that "He don't exist" is therefore
mere unsupported opinion lacking credence.
Sorry you lost your case again. We can assume your handler the devil is
going to be mucho displeased with your performance and will reserve a
special hot place for you in his hell.
If you know what is good for you, you better seek the protection of
Christ while you can.
bob young
Pastor Frank wrote:
You keep saying your god is love, so the biblical story about a father in
heaven
begatting his only son is plainly impossible in your particular cult -
hence my comment above that you glossed over.
i repeat, you cannot have it both ways.
Hey, have a good week
Bob
John Rambo
> the NT Bible are wrong. Your assertion that "He don't exist" is therefore
> mere unsupported opinion lacking credence.
> Sorry you lost your case again. We can assume your handler the devil is
> going to be mucho displeased with your performance and will reserve a
> special hot place for you in his hell.
> If you know what is good for you, you better seek the protection of
> Christ while you can.
>
Whilst there were several witnesses and accounts of Jesus being crucified
and appearing 3 days later, there was no medical evidence to suggest prove
he was dead when he was taken down from the cross. When they put the spear
in his side, blood came out - anybody with medical knowledge would have
known that this meant Jesus was still alive. There is not a shred of
evidence that Jesus rose from the dead - we only have the accounts of a few
pre-medievil sand-niggers. I'd say it would have taken Jesus about 3 days
to make a partial recovery from his violent ordeal if he were young and
strong and don't forget: he had Mary Magdelene and some disciples to look
after him in that cave.
Pastor Frank
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>
>> You haven't yet proved the account of the many witnesses published in
>> the NT Bible are wrong. Your assertion that "He don't exist" is therefore
>> mere unsupported opinion lacking credence.
>> Sorry you lost your case again. We can assume your handler the devil
>> is
>> going to be mucho displeased with your performance and will reserve a
>> special hot place for you in his hell.
>> If you know what is good for you, you better seek the protection of
>> Christ while you can.
>
> You keep saying your god is love, so the biblical story about a father in
> heaven
> begatting his only son is plainly impossible in your particular cult -
> hence my comment above that you glossed over.
> i repeat, you cannot have it both ways.
> Hey, have a good week
> Bob
>
only begotten Son Jesus Christ. And hate begets hate. Tell us how your
atheist worldview differs from this.
bob young
Pastor Frank wrote:
How nice if our particular 'worlds' were capable of 'conforming', but it is
patently obvious they are not, as I said in an earlier post to you today
'there's good and bad in all' regardless of which 'belief' or 'non belief' in
deities one happens to have.
I am reminded of the preponderance of commercialism that exists in the various
churches in America today. That alone should be enough to show there are no
gods involved, only humans. I wonder whether Benny Hinn thinks about this as
he flies around the world in his private jet !
Why does this particular fella [me] get sick over religions Frank? I do, for
example, when watching the pathetic antics and TV close up's on the members of
his flock. That one human can effect other humans by the use of charlatan
quackery in this way in the name of a god is - sickening. Bertie would agree,
I have no doubt about that. That these congregations, who obviously watch his
material week after week, never ask "why are these 'miracles' only reported
'after the fact' and never live' is beyond me, but that is what 'belief' does
to the mind and why there are atheists.
I hope you do not do miracles Frank !
Cheers
Bob
bob young
John Rambo wrote:
> > You haven't yet proved the account of the many witnesses published in
> > the NT Bible are wrong. Your assertion that "He don't exist" is therefore
> > mere unsupported opinion lacking credence.
> > Sorry you lost your case again. We can assume your handler the devil is
> > going to be mucho displeased with your performance and will reserve a
> > special hot place for you in his hell.
> > If you know what is good for you, you better seek the protection of
> > Christ while you can.
> >
> Pastor Frank,
>
> Whilst there were several witnesses and accounts of Jesus being crucified
> and appearing 3 days later,
Not quite - all we have are records written by humans covering an ancient story
that happened nearly two generations earlier. As we have no idea how honest,
or prone to wild superstious fancies people were back then, it is wrong to make
such a catergoric claim about a man they said was called Jesus, and what they
also claimed he did; such as walking on water.
> there was no medical evidence to suggest prove
> he was dead when he was taken down from the cross.
Corrrrrrect
> When they put the spear
> in his side, blood came out - anybody with medical knowledge would have
> known that this meant Jesus was still alive.
ROFL
> There is not a shred of
> evidence that Jesus rose from the dead - we only have the accounts of a few
> pre-medievil sand-niggers. I'd say it would have taken Jesus about 3 days
> to make a partial recovery from his violent ordeal if he were young and
> strong and don't forget: he had Mary Magdelene and some disciples to look
> after him in that cave.
See above
Pastor Frank
news:44561414$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
thus gives meaning to our existence. You have nothing but your atheist
doubts and suspicions, detractions and denials, all negatives which in the
end will make a cynical, if not paranoid and despairing mental case out of
you.
Seek Christ now!!!! And put your faith into Him. For wherever Christ is,
there the glory of His kingdom is also.
Pastor Frank
SALVATION
Jesus in Rv:3:20: Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man
hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with
him, and he with me.
Jesus in Jn:11:25: Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the
life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Jesus in Jn:14:6: Jesus saith unto him: I am the way, the truth, and the
life. No man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jesus in Jn:10:9: I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be
saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Jesus in Mt:11:12: And from the days of John the Baptist until now the
kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the assertive take it by force.
Jesus in Jn:8:36: If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be
free indeed.
Jesus in Lk:15:7: I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven
over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons,
which need no repentance.
2Cor:5:17: Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old
things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Pastor Frank
keep saying: Believe nothing and you will be happy. It won't work, Bob.
Listen to Christ when He talks about Miracles. What does He say? God has
healed you, or I have healed you? No. Christ keeps saying: YOUR FAITH has
healed you, and we know, that faith heals. There are enough studies about to
confirm that. It's the sole reason for the need of double blind drug trials.
Look under "Placebo Effect" in Google.
You just keep having this bat in your bonnet about religion, that
prevents you from seeing clearly.
cactus
Right. I'm Jewish, and I find my faith healing. Is that what you are
talking about?
John Rambo
"Pastor Frank" <Pasto...@christfirst.org> wrote in message
news:c333c$4459260c$d1d894d3$30...@PRIMUS.CA...
Many thanks for giving me the benefit of your advise. I think I'd rather
stick to reality for now though - but if I have a mental breakdown and feel
I need a mental crutch I'll come and see you.
Regards,
JR.
Pastor Frank
news:ezb6g.21603$4L1....@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>
>> Again, you have nothing to offer but the old stiff upper lip. All you
>> keep saying: Believe nothing and you will be happy. It won't work, Bob.
>> Listen to Christ when He talks about Miracles. What does He say? God has
>> healed you, or I have healed you? No. Christ keeps saying: YOUR FAITH has
>> healed you, and we know, that faith heals.
>
> Right. I'm Jewish, and I find my faith healing. Is that what you are
> talking about?
>
faith. That means you could have faith in Satan and be healed.
Pastor Frank
> stick to reality for now though - but if I have a mental breakdown and
> feel I need a mental crutch I'll come and see you.
>
anything better, simply because reality makes no demands on you, nor anyone
else to change it to anything better. Reality is for people who like the rut
they are in.
However don't be too proud of yourself for managing without "a crutch",
that might change in jiffy any old time, without you seeing it coming even.
By then it might be too late to change your mind. You might even be on your
way to "reality" heaven or hell, meaning the same old reality for ever and
ever. Will that be heaven or hell to you?
cactus
cactus
reality intruded in a particularly vile way upon their faith. They were
unable to reconcile their faith in a benign god with what happened.
Many of them got beyond their disillusionment, living long, fulfilling
lives. They reconciled their new reality with their past experience,
only reliving the past through recurring nightmares.
They went through hell for their faith, would you do it to them again?
John Rambo
of primitive man's imaginations - although, I suppose this isn't really
faith, it is more deduction.
John Rambo
I don't believe in Heaven and Hell. Once you're dead your dead.
Pastor Frank
man's imagination", but our Christian God is most certainly not. Therefore
your all inclusive "all gods" above is your very own, personal and private
illusion.
Btw I have a genuine hand-carved fertility god for sale, that fits your
key-chain. It's guaranteed to obviate Viagra, saving you a fortune and this
god definitely exists, guaranteed!!!!
Pastor Frank
people it's a doctor, Chiropractor Podiatrist, herbalist etc. etc. or a
prescription, pills, even if the prescription is merely a placebo. However
you MUST believe and have FAITH in it, or it won't work.
Like Jesus said: Your FAITH has made you whole.
Pastor Frank
But then I woke up. Can you guarantee me, that when I die here I won't wake
up in some other reality?
Pastor Frank
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>> "John Rambo" <ra...@rambo.com> wrote in message
>> news:4459a0df$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
>>> "Pastor Frank" <Pasto...@christfirst.org> wrote in message
>>> news:c333c$4459260c$d1d894d3$30...@PRIMUS.CA...
>>>> "John Rambo" <ra...@rambo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:44561414$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
>>>>>
and the hope for a better, kinder and more loving tomorrow. I am quite sure,
that the survivors of the holocaust did not give up their ideals and hope
enshrined in their God, merely to surrender to reality, fatalism and
hopelessness.
John Rambo
> No. But it doesn't matter what the object of your faith is. For most
> people it's a doctor, Chiropractor Podiatrist, herbalist etc. etc. or a
> prescription, pills, even if the prescription is merely a placebo. However
> you MUST believe and have FAITH in it, or it won't work.
> Like Jesus said: Your FAITH has made you whole.
underestimate the usefulness of "real" healers - for example, if you tried
an experiment and replaced a diabetics insulin injections with warm water,
the diabetic would "have faith" that the fluid was saving him from going
into a coma and dying but this would not save him from going into a coma and
dying i.e. it's the "insulin" that saves his life not the "faith".
John Rambo
>> But some people have "faith" in the belief that all Gods are simply
>> figments of primitive man's imaginations - although, I suppose this isn't
>> really faith, it is more deduction.
> The god(s) of your definition are most certainly "figments of primitive
> man's imagination", but our Christian God is most certainly not. Therefore
> your all inclusive "all gods" above is your very own, personal and private
> illusion.
> Btw I have a genuine hand-carved fertility god for sale, that fits your
> key-chain. It's guaranteed to obviate Viagra, saving you a fortune and
> this god definitely exists, guaranteed!!!!
>
the same as the level of proof for all the other gods that have been created
from the imaginations of man. How do you know your "Christian God is
most certainly not" another bullshit god - your bible talks of a murdering,
paranoid, warmongering god and yet Christians say God is love. has been
seriously lied to for the last 2000 years. Live with it.
John Rambo
>> reality intruded in a particularly vile way upon their faith. They were
>> unable to reconcile their faith in a benign god with what happened.
>> Many of them got beyond their disillusionment, living long, fulfilling
>> lives. They reconciled their new reality with their past experience, only
>> reliving the past through recurring nightmares.
>> They went through hell for their faith, would you do it to them again?
>>
> I don't think we talk about the same thing. Religion is about idealism
> and the hope for a better, kinder and more loving tomorrow. I am quite
> sure, that the survivors of the holocaust did not give up their ideals and
> hope enshrined in their God, merely to surrender to reality, fatalism and
> hopelessness.
>
bullshit inventions from the imaginations of man does not mean that life
stops. People just get on with their lives with and keep a positive
attitude - these people just come to terms with the fact that life and
existance are just one MASSIVE mystery.
John Rambo
>>
> Yes, that's what that guy in one of my dreams told me before he shot
> me. But then I woke up. Can you guarantee me, that when I die here I won't
> wake up in some other reality?
>
appear to be. It's just my opinion based on this: when I go into a deep
sleep and I'm not dreaming there is "nothing". I am expecting that
"nothing" to last for eternity when I'm dead - I will have no brain activity
(no change there then I hear you say :-) ). i.e. I'll just never wake up
and never dream. Secondly, nobody who has ever died has ever made contact
to a living person (only in ghost stories) and this concurrs my first
deduction. So, that's why I believe: "once you're dead you;re dead".
That's why people should do the things they want to do in life and not waste
time in a church praying to an invisible, imaginary sky-buddy with the hope
of getting "eternal life".
Pastor Frank
>Pastor Frank wrote:
Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary, therefore Christ is our God incarnate
who never "murdered" or advocated war or ANY of man's inhumanity to man.
You and I may be delusional, but love is not "delusional".
Pastor Frank
>Pastor Frank wrote:
>>????????? wrote: Why do you erase the names of the previous posters?
There is nothing to look forward to, and no hope.
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully manifested in
Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary. We know love and care to the death to
exist, for Jesus Christ demonstrated this. That is why Jesus is our God
incarnate. You have nothing like it. All you have are your imaginary
"bullshit inventions" type of gods or devils, straw men of your own
invention, who merely serve as targets for your invective and hate.
Pastor Frank
>Pastor frank wrote:
are "arrogant", is proof positive of your own "arrogance", for your opinion
is just that, mere opinion.
Furthermore you don't get my point, which is, that there is as little
guarantee of oblivion after death as the dreamt person has of waking up to
another reality. Virtually all religions assume the latter.
I think it makes more sense than oblivion, and furthermore, were a
dreamt person to believe he was the creation of a dreamer, it would make
perfect sense to pray to, beseech and befriend etc. the dreamer and ask for
a long and happy life.
All your assurance, that the latter scenario is wrong, is but a sham,
for neither of us have any evidence in support of either.
cactus
and defending a country or making new lives elsewhere. They made a
conscious moral decision that if the G-d they worshiped could allow the
Holocaust, they wanted no part of G-d.
There is precedent - the rabbis of Prague put G-d on trial after a
particularly vicious set of pogroms, and convicted. Elie Wiesel has said
something similar.
I think that for many the idealism remained, but G-d was no longer in
the picture.
And for the Jews, religion is about living in this world. The afterlife
is a unification with G-d, although we do believe in a Resurrection of
the Dead. For us, the kinder, gentler world is not in the next life: it
is up to us to do what we can to make this world better.
cactus
world."
cactus
I don't know who else you speak of with "bullshit inventions," but for
me as a mystically inclined Conservative Jew, G-d is beyond all
comprehension, "beyond all praise and psalm" as the oldest prayer in
Judaism goes. Jews can seek unification with this all-encompassing
transcendence that goes beyond intimacy. I have experienced this on a
number of occasions, in prayer, in meditation and other times as well.
For that reason I cannot deny the validity of any faith if there are
valid unifying experiences. Almost every religious faith provides for
these, and IMO the theologies are metaphors for the mystical experiences
of the founders of that faith.
Yours is a beautiful faith, but so is mine, and so is everyone's.
John Rambo
God incarnate.
John Rambo
> "John Rambo" <ra...@rambo.com> wrote in message
> news:445c5184$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
>>Pastor Frank wrote:
>>>????????? wrote: Why do you erase the names of the previous posters?
>>>>
>>>> Many of the Jews who survived the Holocaust became atheists because
>>>> reality intruded in a particularly vile way upon their faith. They were
>>>> unable to reconcile their faith in a benign god with what happened.
>>>> Many of them got beyond their disillusionment, living long, fulfilling
>>>> lives. They reconciled their new reality with their past experience,
>>>> only reliving the past through recurring nightmares.
>>>> They went through hell for their faith, would you do it to them again?
>>>
>>> I don't think we talk about the same thing. Religion is about
>>> idealism and the hope for a better, kinder and more loving tomorrow. I
>>> am quite sure, that the survivors of the holocaust did not give up their
>>> ideals and hope enshrined in their God, merely to surrender to reality,
>>> fatalism and hopelessness.
>>
>> Not hopelessness. Just because a person has worked out that gods are
>> bullshit inventions from the imaginations of man does not mean that life
>> stops. People just get on with their lives with and keep a positive
>> attitude - these people just come to terms with the fact that life and
>> existance are just one MASSIVE mystery.
> Reality contains no ideals nor hope. Reality is just the way things
> are. There is nothing to look forward to, and no hope.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one :-)
>Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully manifested in
>Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary. We know love and care to the death to
>exist, for Jesus Christ demonstrated this. That is why Jesus is our God
>incarnate. You have nothing like it. All you have are your imaginary
>"bullshit inventions" type of gods or devils, straw men of your own
>invention, who merely serve as targets for your invective and hate.
Trying to twist my words eh? Pathetic.
John Rambo
> "John Rambo" <ra...@rambo.com> wrote in message
> news:445c538c$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
>>Pastor frank wrote:
>>>???????? wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I don't believe in Heaven and Hell. Once you're dead your dead.
>>>
>>> Yes, that's what that guy in one of my dreams told me before he shot
>>> me. But then I woke up. Can you guarantee me, that when I die here I
>>> won't wake up in some other reality?
>>
>> Nope. If I could guarantee that I'd be as arrogant as many Christians
>> appear to be. It's just my opinion based on this: when I go into a deep
>> sleep and I'm not dreaming there is "nothing". I am expecting that
>> "nothing" to last for eternity when I'm dead - I will have no brain
>> activity (no change there then I hear you say :-) ). i.e. I'll just
>> never wake up and never dream. Secondly, nobody who has ever died has
>> ever made contact to a living person (only in ghost stories) and this
>> concurrs my first deduction. So, that's why I believe: "once you're dead
>> you;re dead". That's why people should do the things they want to do in
>> life and not waste time in a church praying to an invisible, imaginary
>> sky-buddy with the hope of getting "eternal life".
<snip>
> All your assurance, that the latter scenario is wrong, is but a sham,
> for neither of us have any evidence in support of either.
Correct.
╙«rrock»╖
>
> I never said that love was delusional. And you have no proof that Christ is
> God incarnate.
>
lol, what a silly statement. Can you prove that you are "anything" in particular
"incarnate"? By the way, are you anything particularly incarnate? If so, then
can you explicitly state what exactly you are incarnate? If not, then can you
explicitly state how you differ from a rabbit or a stone? You have all the
symptoms of being "something" incarnate, but what could that be?
About "proof" and "proofs" in general: All proofs in all of the various
sciences rest upon axiomatic principles. If you cannot accept the axioms
for a particular science, then certainly nothing further in that science
may be proven to you. The primary fact and axiomatic principle for most
religions is God. God is all things and that includes all things incarnate.
If you cannot fathom the simplicity of that proof, who cares?
--
ἀπὸ μηχανῆς θεός ápo mēchanēs theós
Speaking of Angels -
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007G1434/102-3602972-5466516
Pastor Frank
John4:8,16), and most of us live in free countries where we can choose
anything or anyone to be our God, or "God incarnate", without needing proof
of anything, ...though Christ proved His love for us to the death, while we
were yet sinners and in no wise deserving of His love.
Does that make you see red and foam at the mouth? If you see yourself
getting to be an intolerant buffoon, I would suggest you post to atheist
groups, where you will get kudos and accolades for your intolerance.
Pastor Frank
>>Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully manifested in
>>Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary. We know love and care to the death
>>to exist, for Jesus Christ demonstrated this. That is why Jesus is our God
>>incarnate. You have nothing like it. All you have are your imaginary
>>"bullshit inventions" type of gods or devils, straw men of your own
>>invention, who merely serve as targets for your invective and hate.
>
> Trying to twist my words eh? Pathetic.
Which "words" did I "twist"? Can't find any words to explain yourself?
"Pathetic"!!!
Pastor Frank
atheist literalist Rambo above calls religion "bullshit inventions".
but for
> me as a mystically inclined Conservative Jew, G-d is beyond all
> comprehension, "beyond all praise and psalm" as the oldest prayer in
> Judaism goes. Jews can seek unification with this all-encompassing
> transcendence that goes beyond intimacy. I have experienced this on a
> number of occasions, in prayer, in meditation and other times as well.
> For that reason I cannot deny the validity of any faith if there are valid
> unifying experiences. Almost every religious faith provides for these, and
> IMO the theologies are metaphors for the mystical experiences of the
> founders of that faith.
> Yours is a beautiful faith, but so is mine, and so is everyone's.
>
We Christians are not into "union with God" but are seeking to be sons
of God in the Image of Christ. For our God is our Father which is in heaven.
We being His children, all our love and devotion is due Him. But you are
right, in that faith is beautiful indeed!
Pastor Frank
SONS OF GOD
Jesus in Jn:8:35-36: And the servant abideth not in the house for ever:
but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall
be free indeed.
Jesus in Jn:15:15: Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant
knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all
things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Jn:1:12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become
the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom:8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons
of God.
Rom:8:19: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the
manifestation of the sons of God.
Phil:2:15: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God,
without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among
whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1Jn:3:1: Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us,
that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us
not, because it knew him not.
1Jn:3:2: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear
what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like
him; for we shall see him as he is.
Pastor Frank
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>
>> I don't think we talk about the same thing. Religion is about
>> idealism and the hope for a better, kinder and more loving tomorrow. I am
>> quite sure, that the survivors of the holocaust did not give up their
>> ideals and hope enshrined in their God, merely to surrender to reality,
>> fatalism and hopelessness.
>
> Many ceased any religious practice and went about their lives, building
> and defending a country or making new lives elsewhere. They made a
> conscious moral decision that if the G-d they worshiped could allow the
> Holocaust, they wanted no part of G-d.
> There is precedent - the rabbis of Prague put G-d on trial after a
> particularly vicious set of pogroms, and convicted. Elie Wiesel has said
> something similar.
> I think that for many the idealism remained, but G-d was no longer in
> the picture.
> And for the Jews, religion is about living in this world. The afterlife
> is a unification with G-d, although we do believe in a Resurrection of
> the Dead. For us, the kinder, gentler world is not in the next life: it
> is up to us to do what we can to make this world better.
>
who live by the sword will die by the sword. I just don't believe, that YHVH
commanded the old Hebrews to "kill all that bretheth" in the entire country,
in order to "possess the land" and "reap where they have not sown". That
commandment came from Satan and was falsely attributed to God, who would
NEVER command some of His children to kill their siblings for their real
estate.
The number of innocent Jews killed by Hitler is nearly the same, and the
reasons for the killings were also near the same. Whereas Germans are sorry
and repentant of what they did and pay reparations to survivors, Jews still
justify the unjustifiable, paying nothing to survivors.
Therefore, I see the holocaust being the result of Jews justifying and
celebrating to this day the horrific massacre they perpetrated against the
native population of what is now Israel. Hence Germans will not suffer any
further consequences of what they did, whereas Jews will subject to
holocausts until they also repent of them. It makes no difference whether
they "perform religious practices" or not, or for that matter convict their
God YHVH of unrightiousness or not. See below
Pastor Frank
The below atrocities were committed shortly after the God of the Jews,
YHVH, gave Moses the 10 commandments, forbidding Jews to covet their
neighbour's property and kill them to get a hold of it.
We know through Christ, that our glorious Father which is in heaven
never commands anyone to kill, but rather to love and convert the
unconverted. Yet Jews and some Christians want us to believe, that YHVH,
though "the same yesterday, today and tomorrow" gave dispensation to
Jews to commit the sins of both coveting and fratricide. Jews were to kill
their Semitic brothers, sisters and their children and life-stock, in fact
they were to "kill all that breatheth" in the entire country, in order for
them to "occupy the land" and "reap where you have not sown". The
result was the horrific obscenity below, a genocidal holocaust of gigantic
proportions.
--------
Deuteronomy 20:16-17 But of the cities of these people, which the Lord
thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing
that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly destroy them; the Hittites, and the
Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites
as the Lord thy God has commanded thee."
Ezekiel 32:5 "I will strew your flesh upon the mountains, and fill the
valleys with your carcass. I will drench the land even to the mountains with
your flowing blood..."
Ezekiel 9:5 "Pass through the city after him, and smite; your eye shall
not spare and you shall show no pity; slay old men outright, young men and
maidens, little children and women...'"
Deut. 7:1 (KJV)When Yahweh your god has settled you in the land you're
about to occupy, and driven out many infidels before you...you're to cut
them down and exterminate them. You're to make no compromise with
them nor show them any mercy.
Joshua 10:40 - BBE So Joshua struck all the land, the hill-country, and
the South, and the lowland, and the slopes, and all their kings: he left
none remaining, but he utterly destroyed all that breathed, as God, the God
of Israel, commanded."
1 Samuel 15:3 - BBE Now go and strike Amalek, and utterly destroy all
that they have, and don't spare them; but kill both man and woman, infant
and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."
Isaiah 13:16 - BBE Their infants also will be dashed in pieces before
their eyes. Their houses will be ransacked, and their wives raped."
Hosea 13:16 - BBE Samaria will bear her guilt; For she has rebelled
against her God. They will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed
in pieces, And their pregnant women will be ripped open."
Psalms 137:9 - Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little
ones against the stones.
Moses in Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the
little ones, and kill every woman, that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the female children, that have not known man by lying with him,
keep alive for yourself.
cactus
well.
cactus
The Jews believe that G-d made the commandment, and in fact the
Israelits were punished for not carrying it out completely.
We can't blame Satan for evil because if G-d created everything, G-d
also created evil, or agents of evil. Angels in Judaism lack free will,
they can only act as commanded by G-d. So again, evil comes from G-d.
Or at least unpleasantness. We are reminded of this every year during
the Days of Awe.
> The number of innocent Jews killed by Hitler is nearly the same, and the
> reasons for the killings were also near the same. Whereas Germans are sorry
> and repentant of what they did and pay reparations to survivors, Jews still
> justify the unjustifiable, paying nothing to survivors.
This sick calculus neglects the 1500 years of massacres of entire Jewish
communities prior to the greatest of the European pogroms. It also
leaves out Stalin's systematic persecution of Jews. Is God charging
interest?
> Therefore, I see the holocaust being the result of Jews justifying and
> celebrating to this day the horrific massacre they perpetrated against the
> native population of what is now Israel.
When do we celebrate it?
Hence Germans will not suffer any
> further consequences of what they did, whereas Jews will subject to
> holocausts until they also repent of them.
We should repent taking the land and building the society that led to
your savior? Makes no sense to me. Or maybe you can say that since you
now have him, you can blame the Jews for conveniently making it possible
to produce him. You would not have your religion without us and ours.
Does your jealousy cause your sick rationalizations?
Most of the Western Hemisphere now follows some form of Christianity
because the Spaniards destroyed the local cultures, killing the local
populations by warfare and plague. The process that the Catholics
started in the Southern Hemisphere was completed by Protestants in the
Northern. Yet do you blame them? What price will you impose on them?
Hungary and Bulgaria are countries whose names are taken from the Steppe
peoples who swept in and displaced the local populations. Do you blame
them? What price will they have to pay?
Do you wonder why Finnish and Hungarian are similar to each other, but
not to any of the languages spoken in between? Do you blame the peoples
who swept in and wiped out the locals who spoke the related dialects?
It makes no difference whether
> they "perform religious practices" or not, or for that matter convict their
> God YHVH of unrightiousness or not. See below
>
> Pastor Frank
>
> The below atrocities were committed shortly after the God of the Jews,
> YHVH, gave Moses the 10 commandments, forbidding Jews to covet their
> neighbour's property and kill them to get a hold of it.
> We know through Christ, that our glorious Father which is in heaven
> never commands anyone to kill, but rather to love and convert the
> unconverted.
I think your glorious Father has been somewhat let down by those who
committed murder and mayhem in his holy name, and those who used his
name to incite that violence.
Yet Jews and some Christians want us to believe, that YHVH,
> though "the same yesterday, today and tomorrow" gave dispensation to
> Jews to commit the sins of both coveting and fratricide.
Jews have never had that dispensation, and are commanded to live with
others and treat them fairly.
Jews were to kill
> their Semitic brothers, sisters and their children and life-stock, in fact
> they were to "kill all that breatheth" in the entire country, in order for
> them to "occupy the land" and "reap where you have not sown". The
> result was the horrific obscenity below, a genocidal holocaust of gigantic
> proportions.
This was a migration of populations. Happened all the time. The Jews and
their literature survived. Read the History of the Mongols. Same thing,
except with minimal theological impact.
So what will you dream up for us next? Iran? If they nuke Israel, will
that be enough for you? Or do you wish the Jews in the Diaspora to pay
the price as well? Should we wait for that knock on the door?
cactus
The Jews believe that G-d made the commandment, and in fact the
Israelits were punished for not carrying it out completely.
We can't blame Satan for evil because if G-d created everything, G-d
also created evil, or agents of evil. Angels in Judaism lack free will,
they can only act as commanded by G-d. So again, evil comes from G-d.
Or at least unpleasantness. We are reminded of this every year during
the Days of Awe.
> The number of innocent Jews killed by Hitler is nearly the same, and the
> reasons for the killings were also near the same. Whereas Germans are sorry
> and repentant of what they did and pay reparations to survivors, Jews still
> justify the unjustifiable, paying nothing to survivors.
This sick calculus neglects the 1500 years of massacres of entire Jewish
communities prior to the greatest of the European pogroms. It also
leaves out Stalin's systematic persecution of Jews. Is God charging
interest?
> Therefore, I see the holocaust being the result of Jews justifying and
> celebrating to this day the horrific massacre they perpetrated against the
> native population of what is now Israel.
When do we celebrate it?
Hence Germans will not suffer any
> further consequences of what they did, whereas Jews will subject to
> holocausts until they also repent of them.
We should repent taking the land and building the society that led to
your savior? Makes no sense to me. Or maybe you can say that since you
now have him, you can blame the Jews for conveniently making it possible
to produce him. You would not have your religion without us and ours.
Does your jealousy cause your sick rationalizations?
Most of the Western Hemisphere now follows some form of Christianity
because the Spaniards destroyed the local cultures, killing the local
populations by warfare and plague. The process that the Catholics
started in the Southern Hemisphere was completed by Protestants in the
Northern. Yet do you blame them? What price will you impose on them?
Hungary and Bulgaria are countries whose names are taken from the Steppe
peoples who swept in and displaced the local populations. Do you blame
them? What price will they have to pay?
Do you wonder why Finnish and Hungarian are similar to each other, but
not to any of the languages spoken in between? Do you blame the peoples
who swept in and wiped out the locals who spoke the related dialects?
It makes no difference whether
> they "perform religious practices" or not, or for that matter convict their
> God YHVH of unrightiousness or not. See below
>
> Pastor Frank
>
> The below atrocities were committed shortly after the God of the Jews,
> YHVH, gave Moses the 10 commandments, forbidding Jews to covet their
> neighbour's property and kill them to get a hold of it.
> We know through Christ, that our glorious Father which is in heaven
> never commands anyone to kill, but rather to love and convert the
> unconverted.
I think your glorious Father has been somewhat let down by those who
committed murder and mayhem in his holy name, as well as those who used
his name to incite that violence from the pulpit.
Yet Jews and some Christians want us to believe, that YHVH,
> though "the same yesterday, today and tomorrow" gave dispensation to
> Jews to commit the sins of both coveting and fratricide.
Jews have never had that dispensation, and are commanded to live with
others and treat them fairly.
Jews were to kill
> their Semitic brothers, sisters and their children and life-stock, in fact
> they were to "kill all that breatheth" in the entire country, in order for
> them to "occupy the land" and "reap where you have not sown". The
> result was the horrific obscenity below, a genocidal holocaust of gigantic
> proportions.
This was a migration of populations. Happened all the time. The Jews and
their literature survived. Read the History of the Mongols. Same thing,
except with minimal theological impact.
> --------
So what will you dream up for us next? Iran? If they nuke Israel, will
Pastor Frank
The God of Christ does NOT create evil, but only good, as per Genesis. Satan
is the antithesis of God who represents life and existence, whereas Satan is
about death and non-existence, the oblivion atheists seek. God MUST prevail
unless all ceases to be. Therefore not YHVH hardened the heart of Pharao,
but Satan did. Not God commanded the horrific Holocaust of "all that
breatheth in an entire country" but Satan did.
>
>> The number of innocent Jews killed by Hitler is nearly the same, and
>> the reasons for the killings were also near the same. Whereas Germans are
>> sorry and repentant of what they did and pay reparations to survivors,
>> Jews still justify the unjustifiable, paying nothing to survivors.
>
> This sick calculus neglects the 1500 years of massacres of entire Jewish
> communities prior to the greatest of the European pogroms. It also leaves
> out Stalin's systematic persecution of Jews. Is God charging interest?
>
accepted practice, this practice will be visited upon them until they repent
of it. That is what Christ taught: "You reap what you sow".
>> Therefore, I see the holocaust being the result of Jews justifying
>> and celebrating to this day the horrific massacre they perpetrated
>> against the native population of what is now Israel.
>
> When do we celebrate it?
>
Everytime you justify the unjustifiable.
>
>> Hence Germans will not suffer any
>> further consequences of what they did, whereas Jews will subject to
>> holocausts until they also repent of them.
>
> We should repent taking the land and building the society that led to your
> savior? Makes no sense to me. Or maybe you can say that since you now
> have him, you can blame the Jews for conveniently making it possible to
> produce him. You would not have your religion without us and ours. Does
> your jealousy cause your sick rationalizations?
>
Why should "taking land" by legal means, as is done by the vast majority
of land owners, prevent the emergence of a Christ?
> Most of the Western Hemisphere now follows some form of Christianity
> because the Spaniards destroyed the local cultures, killing the local
> populations by warfare and plague. The process that the Catholics started
> in the Southern Hemisphere was completed by Protestants in the Northern.
> Yet do you blame them? What price will you impose on them?
>
I am not saying that the old Hebrews were the only ones into genocide
and holocausts. Christians unfortunately copy the 'God sanctioned massacres'
as per OT whenever it suits them, and revert back to Jesus 'meek and mild'
whenever that suits them better, and that is why war is still with us.
> Hungary and Bulgaria are countries whose names are taken from the Steppe
> peoples who swept in and displaced the local populations. Do you blame
> them? What price will they have to pay?
> Do you wonder why Finnish and Hungarian are similar to each other, but not
> to any of the languages spoken in between? Do you blame the peoples who
> swept in and wiped out the locals who spoke the related dialects?
>
>> It makes no difference whether
>> they "perform religious practices" or not, or for that matter convict
>> their God YHVH of unrightiousness or not. See below
>>
>> The below atrocities were committed shortly after the God of the
>> Jews,
>> YHVH, gave Moses the 10 commandments, forbidding Jews to covet their
>> neighbour's property and kill them to get a hold of it.
>> We know through Christ, that our glorious Father which is in heaven
>> never commands anyone to kill, but rather to love and convert the
>> unconverted.
>
> I think your glorious Father has been somewhat let down by those who
> committed murder and mayhem in his holy name, and those who used his name
> to incite that violence.
>
>> Yet Jews and some Christians want us to believe, that YHVH,
>> though "the same yesterday, today and tomorrow" gave dispensation to
>> Jews to commit the sins of both coveting and fratricide.
>
> Jews have never had that dispensation, and are commanded to live with
> others and treat them fairly.
>
Are you repenting of all genocides and holocausts, or only those
committed by non-Jews?
>> Jews were to kill
>> their Semitic brothers, sisters and their children and life-stock, in
>> fact
>> they were to "kill all that breatheth" in the entire country, in order
>> for
>> them to "occupy the land" and "reap where you have not sown". The
>> result was the horrific obscenity below, a genocidal holocaust of
>> gigantic
>> proportions.
>
> This was a migration of populations. Happened all the time. The Jews and
> their literature survived. Read the History of the Mongols. Same thing,
> except with minimal theological impact.
>
Are you now justifying holocausts again? Nothing prevented those desert
tribes to buy land, or even do what by far most wars aim for, to tax the
locals like the Romans did, and then use those taxes to buy the land. But
killing CANNOT ever be of the God of Christ, who is His beloved Father which
is in Heaven, His Abba, His Daddy, who represents the life abundant and is
the God of the living.
You reap what you sow, or justify. Can you live with that, or do you
expect Jews should be exempted from that rule, because of their
justifications?
Pastor Frank
Christianity. The God of Christ creates, Satan destroys.
cactus
cactus
G-d did some creative work, then paused and saw that it was "good."
Genesis is silent as to what else was created.
Satan
> is the antithesis of God who represents life and existence, whereas Satan is
> about death and non-existence,
Who or what created Satan?
the oblivion atheists seek.
You don't understand the nature of oblivion - its a mystical concept,
not an atheistic one. None of the atheists I have encountered sought
"oblivion." I was raised by atheists, I have atheistic relatives, and I
know many others. They live their lives well and properly, and do not
seek what you allege, except perhaps mystically.
God MUST prevail
> unless all ceases to be. Therefore not YHVH hardened the heart of Pharao,
> but Satan did.
This from Exodus 10: 1-3
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 The Lord said to Moses: "Come to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his
heart and the heart of his servants, in order that I may place these
signs of Mine in his midst,
2 and in order that you tell into the ears of your son and your son's
son how I made a mockery of the Egyptians, and [that you tell of]My
signs that I placed in them, and you will know that I am the Lord."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
And we just celebrated the commemoration of what is described in Exodus 14:8
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
8 And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, the king of Egypt, and he
chased after the children of Israel, and the children of Israel were
marching out triumphantly.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
So G-d hardened Pharaoh's heart. Satan is nowhere mentioned. Goddidit.
Please explain how you can assert some parts of Tanach are literally
true and then reject other parts out of hand. It's one of the many
things about fundamentalist Christianity that makes no sense to me.
Not God commanded the horrific Holocaust of "all that
> breatheth in an entire country" but Satan did.
Satan is not mentioned. Goddidit. Can you cite chapter and verse where
Satan does this or is commanded to do so?
>>> The number of innocent Jews killed by Hitler is nearly the same, and
>>> the reasons for the killings were also near the same. Whereas Germans are
>>> sorry and repentant of what they did and pay reparations to survivors,
>>> Jews still justify the unjustifiable, paying nothing to survivors.
>> This sick calculus neglects the 1500 years of massacres of entire Jewish
>> communities prior to the greatest of the European pogroms. It also leaves
>> out Stalin's systematic persecution of Jews. Is God charging interest?
>>
> Like I said below. Once a culture makes genocides / holocausts part of
> accepted practice, this practice will be visited upon them until they repent
> of it. That is what Christ taught: "You reap what you sow".
>
>>> Therefore, I see the holocaust being the result of Jews justifying
>>> and celebrating to this day the horrific massacre they perpetrated
>>> against the native population of what is now Israel.
>> When do we celebrate it?
>>
> Everytime you justify the unjustifiable.
Do I justify it? It happened. It happens today. Look at Darfur.
The Israelites took over one region, because G-d ordered them to. The
reason for the orders was the abominations committed by the peoples they
displaced; however, they did not do as thorough a job as they were
commanded to, and so paid a stiff price.
They were driven out and scattered about the world for more than 2000
years. So they can claim one "ethnic cleansing" if you will. How many
have been committed since by Christians, Muslims, Animists (Mongols),
Magyars, Bulgars, Turkmen, Turks, Arians and others? Are you asserting
that the Israelites created the practice? If so, Christians have been
terrific students.
And yet you blame one people for one event, an event that eventually led
to the founding of your religion. And you don't blame anyone else for
similar or worse. Your position seems very strange to me, even hypocritical.
You may not be a hypocrite: I think that you are so intent on contorting
events to fit your need to condemn the Jews that you grasp at anything
to do so. Perhaps you should condemn us for circumcision or the
opposition to incest and homosexual practice. And don't forget the blood
libel, the false accusation that the Jews had Jesus of Nazareth killed.
That was good for lots of pogroms from the Middle Ages to the 20th
Century CE. You could revive that. The "Protocols of the Elders of
Zion" is still in print. You've got a year to prepare - Easter is the
traditional time for such things.
>>> Hence Germans will not suffer any
>>> further consequences of what they did, whereas Jews will subject to
>>> holocausts until they also repent of them.
>> We should repent taking the land and building the society that led to your
>> savior? Makes no sense to me. Or maybe you can say that since you now
>> have him, you can blame the Jews for conveniently making it possible to
>> produce him. You would not have your religion without us and ours. Does
>> your jealousy cause your sick rationalizations?
>>
> Why should "taking land" by legal means, as is done by the vast majority
> of land owners, prevent the emergence of a Christ?
>
You may recall that happened too. Abraham purchased the cave at
Machpelah from Ephron to bury Sarah. (Genesis 23). I read part of it
from the Scroll at my daughter's bat mitzvah.
But in those high and far off times, 4000 odd years before the Louisiana
Purchase, people did not buy land in large quantities - they settled it
or conquered it. The Israelites fit right in with the standard practice
of the day. They were not the first, nor the last to do what they did.
And yet you single them out as though it were some demographic special
event.
>> Most of the Western Hemisphere now follows some form of Christianity
>> because the Spaniards destroyed the local cultures, killing the local
>> populations by warfare and plague. The process that the Catholics started
>> in the Southern Hemisphere was completed by Protestants in the Northern.
>> Yet do you blame them? What price will you impose on them?
>>
> I am not saying that the old Hebrews were the only ones into genocide
> and holocausts. Christians unfortunately copy the 'God sanctioned massacres'
> as per OT whenever it suits them, and revert back to Jesus 'meek and mild'
> whenever that suits them better, and that is why war is still with us.
But you blame the Jews, while reaping the benefits of what they did.
Think about it, the Jews did it for you, not even knowing who you were,
willingly taking on your condemnation so that you would have the
wherewithal to do it. Who is really the suffering servant here?
All are bad, but we have to live with their consequences. Christianity
was one consequence, Israel's rebirth another. The USA was yet another.
>>> Jews were to kill
>>> their Semitic brothers, sisters and their children and life-stock, in
>>> fact
>>> they were to "kill all that breatheth" in the entire country, in order
>>> for
>>> them to "occupy the land" and "reap where you have not sown". The
>>> result was the horrific obscenity below, a genocidal holocaust of
>>> gigantic
>>> proportions.
>> This was a migration of populations. Happened all the time. The Jews and
>> their literature survived. Read the History of the Mongols. Same thing,
>> except with minimal theological impact.
>>
> Are you now justifying holocausts again? Nothing prevented those desert
> tribes to buy land, or even do what by far most wars aim for, to tax the
> locals like the Romans did, and then use those taxes to buy the land. But
> killing CANNOT ever be of the God of Christ, who is His beloved Father which
> is in Heaven, His Abba, His Daddy, who represents the life abundant and is
> the God of the living.
Maybe the Romans did that, but they were the exception. The Mongols
didn't, Alexander the Great didn't, the Spaniards, French, British,
Belgians and Italians didn't, Hitler didn't, the Chinese didn't in
Tibet, the Crusaders didn't, and while the USA pretended to do it with
the Amerindians, they reneged on every single deal where something
valuable was conceded by treaty.
And most of those were done by Christians or in the name of Christianity.
The Jews paid for it. When will you forgive?
>
>
Pastor Frank
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>
>> That is the fundamentl philosophical difference between Judaism and
>> Christianity. The God of Christ creates, Satan destroys.
>
> Who created Satan?
>
not an act of creation but a consequence.
Pastor Frank
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>
>> You reap what you sow, or justify. Can you live with that, or do you
>> expect Jews should be exempted from that rule, because of their
>> justifications?
>
> The Jews paid for it. When will you forgive?
>
you? Like Jesus said, God will forgive Christians and Jews and all others
who repent of perpetrating and justifying man's inhumanity to man.
Are you repentant of Hebrews "killing all that breatheth" in an entire
country merely to "possess the land" and "reap where they have not sown",
like Germans repent of having killed so many innocent Jews, paying
reparation and inviting Jews to come back to Germany?
I will believe it when I see you likewise advocating reparations to
dispossessed Palestinian refugees, and/or invitations to come back to their
property in Israel.
Free Lunch
I do believe that heresy was condemned long ago.
Elmer
> "cactus" <b...@nonespam.com> wrote in message
> news:Ad28g.74336$H71....@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>> That is the fundamentl philosophical difference between Judaism and
>>> Christianity. The God of Christ creates, Satan destroys.
>> Who created Satan?
> Evil is the inevitable consequence of creating good.
It is?? Says who??
> Therefore, Satan is
> not an act of creation but a consequence.
!!
cactus
> "cactus" <b...@nonespam.com> wrote in message
> news:J538g.24418$4L1...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
>> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>> You reap what you sow, or justify. Can you live with that, or do you
>>> expect Jews should be exempted from that rule, because of their
>>> justifications?
>> The Jews paid for it. When will you forgive?
>>
> You are not short on justifications for man's inhumanity to man, are
> you?
I don't justify it. It has been going on as long as there have been
humans, and will no doubt continue as long as there are humans. The best
we can do is try to minimize it, and to deal with the situations. The
situation in Northern Ireland appears to be well on the way to
resolution, South Africa is making a very successful transition from
Apartheid to civilization, and even Chile is beginning to come to terms
with its past. The Armenians and the Amerindians seem to be sucking it
up pretty well. If they can do it, the Israelis and Palestinians can
also.
Like Jesus said, God will forgive Christians and Jews and all others
> who repent of perpetrating and justifying man's inhumanity to man.
I'm not going there. Read "The Sunflower" by Simon Wiesenthal on this
subject.
> Are you repentant of Hebrews "killing all that breatheth" in an entire
> country merely to "possess the land" and "reap where they have not sown",
> like Germans repent of having killed so many innocent Jews, paying
> reparation and inviting Jews to come back to Germany?
My father was educated in Germany and left in 1933 or so. He eventually
made his way to the USA, where he joined the Army. He ended up in
Germany and participated in the occupation. His large extended family
was murdered by the Nazis. I asked him once what he thought of the
Germans, and he said that at first he was very angry at them. But his
anger went away when he realized that they weren't that different from
the rest of us.
It is possible for the living to forgive, and that is up to all of us.
> I will believe it when I see you likewise advocating reparations to
> dispossessed Palestinian refugees, and/or invitations to come back to their
> property in Israel.
>
>
I, like many Jews and many Israelis, favor a solution that gives the
Palestinians self-determination. There will be no peace until there is
an equitable, mutual resolution.
Based on what I know (I have some pretty good sources) the Israelis are
ready for that. But the Palestinians have pulled back from the brink of
success more times that one can count. Arafat destroyed as many
opportunities as he did Palestinian and Israeli lives, and the new
government is determined to follow his perfidious footsteps. Israel is
not the Palestinians' worst enemy, their own government and patrons are.
Reparations are a complicated issue. The Armenians have never received
reparations from the Turks. Those whose property was seized by the Nazis
rarely got it back, especially land. When territory is conquered, it
becomes the property of the conqueror. Israel is unusual in that it
returned the Sinai to Egypt. And many Palestinians fled Israel because
they believed the Arab propaganda about what would happen to them. There
is a population of Israeli Muslims who participate in Israeli society.
But, of course, like Jews or Christians in Muslim countries they are a
definite minority.
And it would behoove you to learn something of the recent history of the
region, how the problems came to be, how both sides treated each other,
and how the Arab states exploited the Palestinians for their own
political ends.
But you can't do that because it would interfere with your own
worldview, which requires you to blame the Jews rather than understand
the situation, and apportion blame appropriately among the parties. And
you probably have to wish for utter warfare there because that will
bring on your rapture. May it never happen.
ªºª rrock
Pastor Frank wrote:
Oh please, Frank, after all we have discussed on this so far, how can you say
such a thing? God created good. All is good. Evil is an illusion. Jesus said
to preach that the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Why are you preaching about
Satan? When the ungodly curse Satan, they curse their own soul.
ªºª rrock
Pastor Frank wrote:
Forget the land, Frank, what about all the kids that the Israelis shoot for sport?
ªºª rrock
Elmer wrote:
OK... now according to the Bible, Satan is an angel who was cast out from heaven
onto the Earth with the rest of his angels. You'll find that in revelations 12.
God created the angels back in Genesis. There isn't anything "philosophical"
at all about Satan. The Bible mentions that angels are men, sons of God, so
you may as well just ask who created YOU. If you aren't of the sons of God, well,
sorry, can't help you. But if you'd like to be, then its not very difficult, it
simply takes a conscious decision and a request to God Himself. No big deal. Very
easily accomplished. You can find that mentioned in John, Romans, Phillipians,
and in 1 John. You can find references to the rest in the Wisdom of Solomon, Job,
and of course, Genesis. Now, do you really need to read the Bible to know any
of this? No. But it's certainly nice to have it around as an excellent source of
confirmation. It would probably be a good idea to do some homework and read the
Bible for yourself rather than asking strangers about it on UseNet, but that's
just my opinion.
cactus
consequences; therefore, G-d created evil.
ªºª rrock
cactus wrote:
Evil doesn't exist. Also, according to what you are saying there, free-will
is also an illusion. Keep in mind that free-will and "cause and effect" are
mutually exclusive.
Pastor Frank
news:d7a562pdmabqumt9g...@4ax.com...
Christian God to create evil purposely is heretical.
Pastor Frank
news:xny8g.722$Oh1...@news01.roc.ny...
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>> "cactus" <b...@nonespam.com> wrote in message
>> news:Ad28g.74336$H71....@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>>> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>>>
>>>> That is the fundamentl philosophical difference between Judaism and
>>>> Christianity. The God of Christ creates, Satan destroys.
>>>
>>> Who created Satan?
>>
>> Evil is the inevitable consequence of creating good.
>
> It is?? Says who??
>
contrast to evil. Same as creating light without also having dark, or high
without low, or long without short etc. etc. ad infinitum.
Pastor Frank
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>> "cactus" <b...@nonespam.com> wrote in message
>> news:J538g.24418$4L1...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
>>> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You reap what you sow, or justify. Can you live with that, or do
>>>> you expect Jews should be exempted from that rule, because of their
>>>> justifications?
>>> The Jews paid for it. When will you forgive?
>> You are not short on justifications for man's inhumanity to man, are
>> you?
>
> I don't justify it. It has been going on as long as there have been
> humans, and will no doubt continue as long as there are humans.
you under no obligation to try and stop it.
>
>The best we can do is try to minimize it, and to deal with the situations.
>The situation in Northern Ireland appears to be well on the way to
>resolution, South Africa is making a very successful transition from
>Apartheid to civilization, and even Chile is beginning to come to terms
>with its past. The Armenians and the Amerindians seem to be sucking it up
>pretty well. If they can do it, the Israelis and Palestinians can also.
>
minimize the damage" and get on with life as if nothing has happened.
>> Like Jesus said, God will forgive Christians and Jews and all others
>> who repent of perpetrating and justifying man's inhumanity to man.
>
> I'm not going there. Read "The Sunflower" by Simon Wiesenthal on this
> subject.
>
I see. "The Sunflower" takes precedence over Jesus Christ.
>> Are you repentant of Hebrews "killing all that breatheth" in an
>> entire country merely to "possess the land" and "reap where they have not
>> sown", like Germans repent of having killed so many innocent Jews, paying
>> reparation and inviting Jews to come back to Germany?
>
> My father was educated in Germany and left in 1933 or so. He eventually
> made his way to the USA, where he joined the Army. He ended up in Germany
> and participated in the occupation. His large extended family was murdered
> by the Nazis. I asked him once what he thought of the Germans, and he
> said that at first he was very angry at them. But his anger went away when
> he realized that they weren't that different from the rest of us.
> It is possible for the living to forgive, and that is up to all of us.
>
That is good humanism, but not Christianity. We need to repent before
God to become His beloved sons.
>>
>> I will believe it when I see you likewise advocating reparations to
>> dispossessed Palestinian refugees, and/or invitations to come back to
>> their property in Israel.
>
> I, like many Jews and many Israelis, favor a solution that gives the
> Palestinians self-determination. There will be no peace until there is an
> equitable, mutual resolution.
>
Like those South African white colonialists perhaps, who sought to give
the blacks independent homelands to live in? If Palestinians want to be
citizens of Israel with full legal rights, like the black in South Africa
now, why should they be denied?
> Based on what I know (I have some pretty good sources) the Israelis are
> ready for that. But the Palestinians have pulled back from the brink of
> success more times that one can count. Arafat destroyed as many
> opportunities as he did Palestinian and Israeli lives, and the new
> government is determined to follow his perfidious footsteps. Israel is not
> the Palestinians' worst enemy, their own government and patrons are.
> Reparations are a complicated issue. The Armenians have never received
> reparations from the Turks. Those whose property was seized by the Nazis
> rarely got it back, especially land. When territory is conquered, it
> becomes the property of the conqueror. Israel is unusual in that it
> returned the Sinai to Egypt. And many Palestinians fled Israel because
> they believed the Arab propaganda about what would happen to them. There
> is a population of Israeli Muslims who participate in Israeli society.
> But, of course, like Jews or Christians in Muslim countries they are a
> definite minority.
> And it would behoove you to learn something of the recent history of the
> region, how the problems came to be, how both sides treated each other,
> and how the Arab states exploited the Palestinians for their own political
> ends.
> But you can't do that because it would interfere with your own worldview,
> which requires you to blame the Jews rather than understand the situation,
> and apportion blame appropriately among the parties. And you probably have
> to wish for utter warfare there because that will bring on your rapture.
> May it never happen.
>
You are the victim of propaganda, i.e. the justification for murdering
vastly more innocent Palestinians than the number of Jews killed by
Palestinians, and ethnic cleansing which fills refugee camps across the
borders of Israel, as well as the vast Gulags in the Sinai filled with young
Palestinians.
If Christ is right, that we reap as we sow, then all these things will
be visited upon Jews again and again until they repent of it. See below the
horrendous obscenity perpetrated against Israel's native populations from
the beginning, and the prophesy regarding its aftermath for Israel.
Pastor Frank
CAUSE OF THE APOCALYPSE: Being proud instead of repentant of the
horrific holocaust of the entire native population of "the promised land",
as well as the continuing colonial brutality against Palestinian natives.
The below atrocities were committed shortly after the God of the Jews,
YHVH, gave Moses the 10 commandments, forbidding Jews to covet their
neighbour's property and kill them to get a hold of it.
We know through Christ, that our glorious Father which is in heaven
never commands anyone to kill, but rather to love and convert the
unconverted. Yet Jews and some Christians want us to believe, that YHVH,
though "the same yesterday, today and tomorrow" gave dispensation to
Jews to commit the sins of both coveting and fratricide. Jews were to kill
their Semitic brothers, sisters and their children and life-stock, in fact
they were to "kill all that breatheth" in the entire country, in order for
them to "occupy the land" and "reap where you have not sown". The
result was the horrific obscenity below, a genocidal holocaust of gigantic
proportions.
PROPHETIC APOCALYPSE, (The N-U-C-L-E-A-R consequence of the abomination
above and others like it, employing great noise and heat that can melt
elements, scorch people and destroy the "works of man" on a massive scale)
2Pt:3:10: But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in
the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements
shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein
shall be burned up.
2Pt:3:12: Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God,
wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall
melt with fervent heat?
Mk:13:8: For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against
kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be
famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
Mt:24:21-22: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since
the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except
those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the
elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Jesus in Matt. 24:16-22: Then let them which be in Judea flee into the
mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing
out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take
his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give
suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter,
neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was
not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:
but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Jesus in Matt 34:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days
shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light. (Nuclear
Winter)
Jesus in Lk:23:30: Then shall they begin to say to the mountains: Fall
on us! And to the hills: Cover us!
Rev 6: 15-17 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the
rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among
the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks,
"Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from
the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who
can stand?"
Rv:16:9: And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name
of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give
him glory.
Pastor Frank
now I create evil. He said about every act of creation: It is good. That
means that something else must not be good. Without that as contrast, good
could not exist. Same goes for all dichotomies. I.e. light and dark, high
and low, truth and lies, right and wrong, love and hate and finally good and
evil and God and Satan.
Elmer
I would, but then, I'm not omnipotent. So I guess you're claiming that God is
not omnipotent and therefore cannot create good without consequently engendering
evil.
ªºª rrock
Pastor Frank wrote:
Its evident, Frank, that you are stuck in a bicameral perspective. Tell me,
if i wake up some morning, go into the kitchen and make myself a cup of coffee
that i am required to know evil before i can enjoy it. Good is absolute, evil
is relative. If this were untrue, then you would have to say that Good and
evil share a characteristic. Good is all things. Evil is at best, a direction.
It is only a notion. Look at your hand, Frank, it is good. Tell me that any
other hand that was created by God is evil. The illusion of evil only comes
into your mind when you judge the works of God as insufficient, Frank. That
only happens when you compare yourself with God, and that only happens when
you "personify" God down to a human level.
Free Lunch
>"Free Lunch" <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote in message
>news:d7a562pdmabqumt9g...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 10 May 2006 22:11:50 -0400, in alt.talk.creationism
>> "Pastor Frank" <Pasto...@christfirst.org> wrote in
>> <8c4b$4462a4c0$d1d89aab$14...@PRIMUS.CA>:
>>>"cactus" <b...@nonespam.com> wrote in message
>>>news:Ad28g.74336$H71....@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>>>> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> That is the fundamentl philosophical difference between Judaism and
>>>>> Christianity. The God of Christ creates, Satan destroys.
>>>>
>>>> Who created Satan?
The stories make it pretty clear that God did.
>>>Evil is the inevitable consequence of creating good. Therefore, Satan
>>>is not an act of creation but a consequence.
>>
>> I do believe that heresy was condemned long ago.
>>
> "Condemned" by whom? I would suggest the opposite, that believing the
>Christian God to create evil purposely is heretical.
>
You appear to have reinvented Manicheanism which was also condemned as
heresy.
ªºª rrock
Pastor Frank wrote:
You just contradicted yourself. Your "error" lies in this statement:
> That means that something else must not be good.
The words are clear and plain Frank. This errant idea of yours that somehow
there is a seperate place that exists beyond the infinity that God made which
is good is your illusion.
cactus
Did G-d create Satan?
cactus
> "cactus" <b...@nonespam.com> wrote in message
> news:6Az8g.85372$dW3....@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
>> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>> "cactus" <b...@nonespam.com> wrote in message
>>> news:J538g.24418$4L1...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
>>>> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>>>> You reap what you sow, or justify. Can you live with that, or do
>>>>> you expect Jews should be exempted from that rule, because of their
>>>>> justifications?
>>>> The Jews paid for it. When will you forgive?
>>> You are not short on justifications for man's inhumanity to man, are
>>> you?
>> I don't justify it. It has been going on as long as there have been
>> humans, and will no doubt continue as long as there are humans.
> That's pretty good justification why it should be continuing and putting
> you under no obligation to try and stop it.
>> The best we can do is try to minimize it, and to deal with the situations.
>> The situation in Northern Ireland appears to be well on the way to
>> resolution, South Africa is making a very successful transition from
>> Apartheid to civilization, and even Chile is beginning to come to terms
>> with its past. The Armenians and the Amerindians seem to be sucking it up
>> pretty well. If they can do it, the Israelis and Palestinians can also.
>>
> Well then religion isn't needed
It can get in the way.
for all we need to do is "our best to
> minimize the damage" and get on with life as if nothing has happened.
Right part of it. We do have to get on with life, but try to do better
next time.
>
>>> Like Jesus said, God will forgive Christians and Jews and all others
>>> who repent of perpetrating and justifying man's inhumanity to man.
>> I'm not going there. Read "The Sunflower" by Simon Wiesenthal on this
>> subject.
>>
> I see. "The Sunflower" takes precedence over Jesus Christ.
It's a book addressing some of the issues of forgiveness from both
Jewish and Christian viewpoints.
>
>>> Are you repentant of Hebrews "killing all that breatheth" in an
>>> entire country merely to "possess the land" and "reap where they have not
>>> sown", like Germans repent of having killed so many innocent Jews, paying
>>> reparation and inviting Jews to come back to Germany?
>> My father was educated in Germany and left in 1933 or so. He eventually
>> made his way to the USA, where he joined the Army. He ended up in Germany
>> and participated in the occupation. His large extended family was murdered
>> by the Nazis. I asked him once what he thought of the Germans, and he
>> said that at first he was very angry at them. But his anger went away when
>> he realized that they weren't that different from the rest of us.
>> It is possible for the living to forgive, and that is up to all of us.
>>
> That is good humanism, but not Christianity. We need to repent before
> God to become His beloved sons.
I'm not a Christian, nor were any of my direct ancestors as far back as
we can tell.
>>> I will believe it when I see you likewise advocating reparations to
>>> dispossessed Palestinian refugees, and/or invitations to come back to
>>> their property in Israel.
>> I, like many Jews and many Israelis, favor a solution that gives the
>> Palestinians self-determination. There will be no peace until there is an
>> equitable, mutual resolution.
>>
> Like those South African white colonialists perhaps, who sought to give
> the blacks independent homelands to live in?
No, the Apartheid government designated the worst, most resource-poor,
landlocked and impoverished areas of the country as "homelands" and then
forced Blacks to move to and live there.
If Palestinians want to be
> citizens of Israel with full legal rights, like the black in South Africa
> now, why should they be denied?
They shouldn't be denied. If they want to become Israeli citizens, let
them. If they want their own state, as most seem to, it should be worked
out.
BTW if you can find an Arab who wants to be an Israeli citizen, don't
give out their name - there are lots of Hamas operatives who would be
delighted to murder him or her.
I'm not going to argue with you, there is no point. However, for your
own good, I suggest that you dig a bit deeper into the matter and find
out how nuanced and complex the situation actually is.
> If Christ is right, that we reap as we sow, then all these things will
> be visited upon Jews again and again until they repent of it. See below the
> horrendous obscenity perpetrated against Israel's native populations from
> the beginning, and the prophesy regarding its aftermath for Israel.
>
And why do you just pick on the Jews? All groups in existence today are
here because their ancestors were nastier than the folks they displaced.
If you are hung up on the prophesies, you probably want a major war in
the Middle East so that maybe you'll get your rapture. Selfish, selfish.
Now, Pastor Frank, please explain the moral basis for Christianity given
that the people who did this eventually created Christianity. Seems to
me that the moral basis of your religion is built on quicksand, given
where it came from.
<snip>
>
Pastor Frank
continually and compulsively, but limit himself by laying aside His powers,
right down to the Human Condition. Therefore in order to allow us to
recognise good so we can pursue it, we need to know what is evil so we can
avoid it.
Pastor Frank
Pastor Frank
news:rIU8g.5166$WP5...@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>
>> No. Read Genesis and notice God creating only good. NEVER did God say
>> now I create evil. He said about every act of creation: It is good. That
>> means that something else must not be good. Without that as contrast,
>> good could not exist. Same goes for all dichotomies. I.e. light and dark,
>> high and low, truth and lies, right and wrong, love and hate and finally
>> good and evil and God and Satan.
>
> You just contradicted yourself. Your "error" lies in this statement:
>
>> That means that something else must not be good.
>
was nothing NOT good?What God creates is obviously good in contrast to what
Satan creates and which is NOT good.
Pastor Frank
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>
>> If Palestinians want to be
>> citizens of Israel with full legal rights, like the black in South Africa
>> now, why should they be denied?
>
> They shouldn't be denied. If they want to become Israeli citizens, let
> them. If they want their own state, as most seem to, it should be worked
> out.
> BTW if you can find an Arab who wants to be an Israeli citizen, don't give
> out their name - there are lots of Hamas operatives who would be delighted
> to murder him or her.
>
the same civil rights. That means free vote and property rights for all,
meaning all land seized by force will go back to its original owners, and
squatters will need to vacate or pay for the land, like we all do, who live
in civilized countries. I don't see them advocating independent homelands
for Palestinians.
Palestinians would welcome a political arrangement like the South
African whites negotiated with the majority blacks. There would be peace and
equality in greater Israel AKA Palestine.
Elmer
> "Elmer" <nyli...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
> news:aCT8g.843$Oh1...@news01.roc.ny...
>> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>> "Elmer" <nyli...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
>>> news:xny8g.722$Oh1...@news01.roc.ny...
>>>> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>>>> "cactus" <b...@nonespam.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:Ad28g.74336$H71....@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>>>>>> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>>>>>> That is the fundamentl philosophical difference between Judaism
>>>>>>> and Christianity. The God of Christ creates, Satan destroys.
>>>>>> Who created Satan?
>>>>> Evil is the inevitable consequence of creating good.
>>>> It is?? Says who??
>>> OK Elmer, show us how you would create good without it being in
>>> contrast to evil. Same as creating light without also having dark, or
>>> high without low, or long without short etc. etc. ad infinitum.
>> I would, but then, I'm not omnipotent. So I guess you're claiming that God
>> is not omnipotent and therefore cannot create good without consequently
>> engendering evil.
> God is omnipotent, and his challenge is not using His omnipotence
> continually and compulsively,...
Really? And you know this how?
> but limit himself by laying aside His powers,
> right down to the Human Condition.
The ultimate responsibility for which is His.
Free Lunch
ªºª rrock
Pastor Frank wrote:
Maybe YOU need to know evil, Frank, but according to the Bible, all is good.
ªºª rrock
Pastor Frank wrote:
> "ชบช rrock" <inv...@address.here> wrote in message
There you go again, preaching Satan and empowering Satan, Frank. There is no
Satan as a persona Frank. Get that straight first. All things that God created
are good. It is your own bicameral perception that insists that all things
must have opposites. It is therefore YOU that is creating opposite to an
already perfectly ordered Universe. Your perceptions are illusions.
According to the Bible, GOD created ALL things. Therefore it should be plain
that this "Satan" of yours created nothing. Since you believe in this Satan
that should be real clear to you. If you were actually spreading the good
news of God then you wouldn't be saying that Satan created evil things. You
are preaching Satan, Frank, and you are doing so posing as a Christian.
Naughty naughty!
Pastor Frank
> On Fri, 12 May 2006 19:44:41 -0400, in alt.talk.creationism
> "Pastor Frank" <Pasto...@christfirst.org> wrote in
> <55305$44653f00$d1d894d0$31...@PRIMUS.CA>:
>>
>>
> You did, Frank. You said that evil was an inevitable result of good.
>
all started with God creating Lucifer, His most perfect creation ever, good
looking and extremely smart and talented, having full freedom to do either
good or evil.
And then Lucifer started to compare himself to others, and realized that
he was better looking, and smarter than most (much like atheists do), and he
began to esteem himself, than worship himself, eventually he ended up
screeching: I shall exalt myself above the highest heaven and have all
creation worship me and my perfection.
It was then He fell into hell like a streak of lightening and became
Satan.
Did God create evil? NO! God created only the best.
Elmer
> "Free Lunch" <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote in message
> news:7rja621920geudasm...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 12 May 2006 19:44:41 -0400, in alt.talk.creationism
>> "Pastor Frank" <Pasto...@christfirst.org> wrote in
>> <55305$44653f00$d1d894d0$31...@PRIMUS.CA>:
>>> It's you who claims God creates evil, not I, nor did Christ.
>> You did, Frank. You said that evil was an inevitable result of good.
> No I did not, because the Bible is quite clear how evil came about. It
> all started with God creating Lucifer...(snip)
Frank, to what does the "it" refer in the sentence above?
Free Lunch
The story itself shows that Lucifer was not perfect in the sense that
you want. Sorry, but God cannot be all-powerful and exonerated of the
existence of evil. Your doctrines are currently in conflict.
Pastor Frank
you want to go now and say that Satan therefore is God's most perfect
creations, go ahead and make us all laugh.
Pastor Frank
That Lucifer went and fell in love with himself, going insane, is not
Father's fault but Lucifer's alone. It's like blaming your dad for crashing
his car and ending up in a wheel chair. He made sure you had driving lessons
and a licence before lending you his car. Yet you would blame him for your
condition, rather than yourself.
cactus
> "cactus" <b...@nonespam.com> wrote in message
> news:hgW8g.71345$F_3....@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
>> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>> If Palestinians want to be
>>> citizens of Israel with full legal rights, like the black in South Africa
>>> now, why should they be denied?
>> They shouldn't be denied. If they want to become Israeli citizens, let
>> them. If they want their own state, as most seem to, it should be worked
>> out.
>> BTW if you can find an Arab who wants to be an Israeli citizen, don't give
>> out their name - there are lots of Hamas operatives who would be delighted
>> to murder him or her.
>>
> From what I read, it is Hamas which advocates one country where all have
> the same civil rights.
That's because all the Jews will be dead and the Christians driven out.
But maybe they are getting more reasonable:
______________________________________________________________________
Hamas has dropped its call for the destruction of Israel from its
manifesto for the Palestinian parliamentary election in a fortnight, a
move that brings the group closer to the mainstream Palestinian position
of building a state within the boundaries of the occupied territories.
The Islamist faction, responsible for a long campaign of suicide
bombings and other attacks on Israelis, still calls for the maintenance
of the armed struggle against occupation. But it steps back from Hamas's
1988 charter demanding Israel's eradication and the establishment of a
Palestinian state in its place.
The manifesto makes no mention of the destruction of the Jewish state
and instead takes a more ambiguous position by saying that Hamas had
decided to compete in the elections because it would contribute to "the
establishment of an independent state whose capital is Jerusalem".
_________________________________________________________________________
This from http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/hamasdropscall.html.
So until a few weeks ago Hamas was committed to the destruction of
Israel. Reasonable folks these, just as in Iran, who funds them.
> That means free vote and property rights for all,
just like in Egypt, Afghanistan, and Iran, at least for Muslims. Forget
Jews, Christians and Bahais.
> meaning all land seized by force will go back to its original owners, and
> squatters will need to vacate or pay for the land, like we all do, who live
> in civilized countries.
What about land legitimately purchased by Jews from Arab owners over the
centuries?
> I don't see them advocating independent homelands
> for Palestinians.
> Palestinians would welcome a political arrangement like the South
> African whites negotiated with the majority blacks. There would be peace and
> equality in greater Israel AKA Palestine.
>
You don't like Israel do you?
>
cactus
say that G-d did not create something is to say that something other
than G-d created it. That limits G-d, which is anathema to monotheistic
religions.
You sound very much like a Christian polytheist. I will proceed on that
basis unless you can demonstrate otherwise.
cactus
cactus
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there
is no God: I will strengthen you although you have not known Me.
6 In order that they know from the shining of the sun and from the west
that there is no one besides Me; I am the Lord and there is no other.
7 Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates
evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Now you have it on divine authority, care to change your assertion?
Elmer
Nice try Frank. You and anyone else knows exactly what the "it" referred to in
that sentence, and "it" was not "...God creating His most perfect creation,
Lucifer..."
Free Lunch
Clearly, the story as you tell it, shows us that Lucifer was not
perfect. You can try to make excuses for your defective doctrines all
you like, but it won't wash. If God had made Lucifer perfect, as you
claim he did, Lucifer could not have fallen.
>It's like blaming your dad for crashing
>his car and ending up in a wheel chair. He made sure you had driving lessons
>and a licence before lending you his car. Yet you would blame him for your
>condition, rather than yourself.
But no one claims that dad is perfect or gave perfect driving lessons.
Your analogy doesn't work because your analogy jettisons your central
claim: that Lucifer was perfectly made.