Synthetic oil warning for Camry 4-cyl engine (long)
Mike V
surprised; the I-told-you-so crowd will want to do just that -- Please try
to stay on topic!
The story:
We have a 99 Camry in which I changed the oil to the Amsoil Series 2000
0W-30 (drain interval is 35k or one year, which ever comes first) at the
first oil change at 3k. It now has 27k miles on it and the engine is
destroyed--blew up this past Tuesday evening, 11/7. The car was due for its
annual oil change when this occurred. I had the car towed home so that I
could inspect it the next day.
What little oil was on the dipstick was extremely thick and there was no
firm indication of an oil *level* on the stick. A visual inspection of the
engine & drive train appeared normal--full coolant, oil drain plug in place,
etc. The Camry was towed to an independent mechanic I've used for fourteen
years because I wanted him to put the car on the rack to locate the oil leak
I suspected. I also wanted his expertise on record in the event there was
conflict with Toyota and/or Amsoil. His findings were no leaks, but extreme
sludge build up in the engine--found by using a bore scope through the oil
filler opening. This mechanic told me that If he had not known me as long as
he has (and how I take care of my vehicles) his conclusion would be that I
had not changed the oil, resulting in combustion burn up of the oil. His
recommendation is to replace the entire engine with a new unit.
While waiting for the above inspection results I contacted Amsoil Technical
Services and relayed the breakdown to them, and asked what kind of info they
required in the event the oil was suspected as the cause of this failure.
After my mechanics evaluation, my next call was to the service manager at
the dealer where I bought the car. I relayed everything to him, including
the fact that I had an independent evaluation. When I described the findings
to him, along with the brand of oil used, he told me that he personally had
seen the same problem in a customer's Sienna. The customer went through the
entire arbitration process trying to have his problem covered under
warranty. The end result was Amsoil paid for an engine overhaul (new short
block and related components) and ancillary expenses.
The Camry was towed to the dealer for inspection. The valve cover was
removed and I saw ~1/2-inch of sludge build up on the cam/valve train
components--something that occurs over a long period of time. According to
this service manager, this particular model of the four-cylinder engine runs
very hot to comply with emission standards and the oil in it must be changed
at the Toyota-recommended drain interval, regardless of the type/brand of
oil used.
Toyota denies warranty service for this failure and recommends replacing the
short block. I have enough mechanical knowledge to recognize that the oil is
at fault in this failure and am not bother by Toyota's decision.
After the above inspections I again contacted Amsoil tech services
department. I talked to a different individual, again explained everything,
and asked questions regarding my experience and what could I expect from
Amsoil in getting this situation resolved. According to this individual,
this type failure of this engine model is a known problem at Amsoil and they
will stand behind their product warranty (a sigh of relief for me--hopefully
not having to fight a corporate giant). He also added that Amsoil is
investigating/evaluating this engine model and is finding the same problem
when petroleum-based oil is used. His recommendation is to replace the
engine, not overhaul.
Apparently the design of this engine is extremely hard on oil. The bottom
line is: change the oil at the Toyota-recommended intervals, or more often
(preferably with documentation), in the event there are any warranty
concerns related to engine oil failure.
I have been an Amsoil dealer for six years and have used their products in
all of our vehicles during that time (92 Camry, 190k; 95 T100, 84k; 88 Ford
F150, 88k; 88 Buick LeSabre, 147k; as well as lawn/garden equipment and
emergency generator). I have always followed the Amsoil-recommended drain
intervals and have never had an oil related problem.
Any thoughts on this situation?
Ron(Fla)
the full mark?
Ron(Fla)
"Mike V" <m.w.vin...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:PiuO5.5304$mq1.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Mike V
and their new engines *just don't* leak or use oil--say hello to Mr. Murphy.
Ron(Fla) wrote in message ...
drans...@my-deja.com
topping up the oil, would you not have had the same failure?
In article <tbGO5.24827$xJ4.1...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Hank
combustion byproducts etc. with an inadequate drain schedule.
The major reason/ benefit of frequent oil changes is the frequent
removal of this crud from your engine ; something which can only be
done by draining/ refilling OR a MUCH more sophisticated filter than
the primitive one on your engine.
I don't think anyone ever harmed their engine by too frequently
changing the oil. It's VERY cheap insurance! I believe in synthetics
and I believe they may retain their lubricating abilities that long
but lubrication is only part of the oils job.
I have been interested in AMSOIL for years but if they are really DUMB
enough to recommend this very extended change interval AND dumb enough
to repair your engine they have lost all of my respect!
When replying, keep in mind that ----
KAM is the Canadian version of the popular american 'meat'
get it?
Mike V
>topping up the oil, would you not have had the same failure?
It is in the sense that it all turned to sludge to the extent that it would
not flow. My mechanic had to remove the oil pan to collect the 8 ounces I
requested for oil analysis--wouldn't drain. Yea, I would have had the same
failure by topping off, but if I'd checked the level more often I would have
noticed the change in the oil characteristics.
Mike V
Hank wrote in message <3a0c8394....@allnews.nbnet.nb.ca>...
> I wonder how this wonder oil gets rid of moisture, wear particles,
>combustion byproducts etc. with an inadequate drain schedule.
>The major reason/ benefit of frequent oil changes is the frequent
>removal of this crud from your engine ; something which can only be
>done by draining/ refilling OR a MUCH more sophisticated filter than
>the primitive one on your engine.
The short answer is: the filtration and the additive/detergent package in
the oil formulation. The Amsoil super duty filters filter down to about 4-5
microns, which removes most of the crude. The anti-wear additives and
detergent package takes care of the wear and combustion byproducts.
We had a 92 Camry LE (4 cyl) that developed a regular slow-rate coolant loss
at ~150k miles and I couldn't locate any signs of an external leak. I had
an oil analysis done on oil that had about 20k miles on it, and about 8k on
the filter--the wear particles were well below normal, as were the
contaminats, and no coolant in the oil--only a trace of water from
condensation. The leak finally presented itself at the water pump gasket.
>I don't think anyone ever harmed their engine by too frequently
>changing the oil. It's VERY cheap insurance!
I agree--100 percent.
I believe in synthetics
>and I believe they may retain their lubricating abilities that long
>but lubrication is only part of the oils job.
>I have been interested in AMSOIL for years but if they are really DUMB
>enough to recommend this very extended change interval AND dumb enough
>to repair your engine they have lost all of my respect!
The Amsoil products have been use-tested for more than 20 years and they
actually do perform as advertised. It is just that this particular engine
is extremely tough on the oil, the reason for which is still under
investigation. In my case, and others, Amsoil is standing behind their
warranty.
After the new engine is broken in I will continue to use the Amsoil product,
but will shorten the drain interval, visually inspect the used oil and
engine top-end, and implement a regular oil analysis program.
--Philip--
>combustion byproducts etc. with an inadequate drain schedule.
One thing you neglected to mention was the deterioration of the oil additive
package that ONLY oil change outs can restore. Very important these days.
-Philip-
"Anything that offends common sense
will be embraced by an intellectual"
dt
Seems like changing the oil would be the easy route instead of getting your
engine replaced every year.
"Mike V" <m.w.vin...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:uf2P5.7211$%%1.45...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Stephen Schaffer
The Amsoil products have been use-tested for more than 20 years and they
actually do perform as advertised. It is just that this particular
engine is extremely tough on the oil, the reason for which is still
under investigation. In my case, and others, Amsoil is standing behind
their warranty.
============================
Mike,
If the car had a 4, you may have noticed that the filter screwed
directly onto the block, while on your 92 it screwed onto an adapter
plate with hoses going to an engine oil cooler. The lack of the cooler
on the newer model may have been a factor. I beleive Toyota markets an
accessory engine oil cooler recommended for cars used to tow trailers.
"Dammit Jim! I'm an Automotive Service
Technician, not a mechanic!!"
Steve S.
ThreeCats
Just because you use good oil doesn't mean it won't get dirty.
Engine oil becomes contaminated at the same rate regardless if its
synthetic or mineral based. Your filter keeps trapping these nasties at the
same rate regardless of your oil. Once the filter is clogged it's bypass
valve opens and your engine is running on UNFILTERED DIRTY oil! It doesn't
take long after this point to kill your engine. That sludge you found is
probably what your filter couldn't catch once it was clogged. Toyota knows
how fast oil becomes contaminated in their engines. That's why the
recommend a certain maintenance interval. Amsol didn't build your engine.
Would you ask a pharmacist how to perform brain surgery?
"dt" <d...@dt.com> wrote in message
news:cn6P5.12930$h96....@nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech.net...
Mike V
(I don't pull trailers with the car, only my T100), but it certainly makes
sense. I'll look into this.
BTW, in speaking with the Amsoil tech services department they indicated
that both engines, 4 & 6 cylinder, in the Camry and other vehicles using the
same engines have this oil related problem--synthetic-based and longer drain
intervals, and petroleum-based with a 3000 mile drain interval--and Toyota
is blaming the oils. I'm beginning to think that the redesign of these
engines for higher performance is the culprit, not the oil used. Lack of
the oil cooler, maybe?
Stephen Schaffer wrote in message
<11068-3A...@storefull-626.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
Mike V wrote,
The Amsoil products have been use-tested for more than 20 years and they
actually do perform as advertised. It is just that this particular
engine is extremely tough on the oil, the reason for which is still
under investigation. In my case, and others, Amsoil is standing behind
their warranty.
--Philip--
>Camry and other vehicles using the
>same engines have this oil related problem--synthetic-based and longer drain
>intervals, and petroleum-based with a 3000 mile drain interval--and Toyota
>is blaming the oils.
No matter whose oil you use, when the oil additives are no longer capable of
suspending carbon, the stuff falls out of suspension and coats all surfaces.
The lubricating quality is a separate issue.
I laugh incredulously at those who have to rediscover the wheel again, and
again, and again!