OT Teachers are overpaid! Bob K and P (for your wives and all teachers)
TedHarbit
Teachers are paid too much! I'm fed up with teachers and their hefty
salaries for only 9 months work! What we need here is a little perspective.
If I had my way, I'd pay teachers babysitting wages.
That's right. Instead of paying these outrageous taxes, I'd give them $3.00
an hour. And, I'm only going to pay them for 5 hours they actually are with
the kids, not planning time. That would be $15.00 a day. Each parent should
pay $15.00 a day for these teachers to baby sit their children. Even if they
have more than one child, it's still MUCH cheaper than private daycare.
Now how many children do they teach a day - maybe 20? That's $15.00 x 20 =
300.00 a day. But remember, they only work 180 days a year! I'm not going to
pay them for all the vacations: $300.00 x 180 =$54,000. ( Just a minute my
calculator must need new batteries.)
What will teachers say about those who have 10 years of experience and a
master's degree? Well, maybe (just to be fair) they could get the minimum
wage. We can round that off to about $6.00 an hour, times 5 hours, times 20
children. $6.00 x 5 x 20. That's $600 a day times 180 days. That's only
$108,000.
Wait a minute! There is something wrong here...
(And to think all the time Mary Ann and I were teaching we averaged about 30
students and six to eight classes a day! I might go out of retirement)
Itraseecab
Ted as a recently retired teacher (31years) I thank you.
Joe Roberts
Grumpy au Contraire
Gawd... You don't want me to go on a public education rant!
The system is broken, very badly. And pouring money on the issue is not
the answer. Basic fundamental changes are required but that is taboo in
this liberal "feel good" era.
Anyone with two brain cells to rub together that is my age can state
with confidence that we are bringing up an increased succession of
illiterate idiots that cannot function effectively in today's society.
Between, (yup, I gotta say it), the teacher's unions, social engineers,
and politicos, we have quite a mess. Only fundamental change to include
simplification of process will fix it but of course, such would be
considered heresy in academia.
Grrrrrrrrrrr
(And that wasn't anywhere near the level of rant I'm capable of...)
--
JT
Just tooling through cyberspace in my ancient G4
Grumpy au Contraire
I believe that Ted retired early because... well, things wuz a-changin'
fer the worse systematically speaking. Am I correct Ted?
Henry Walter
mistake of going home and telling my Mom that I got a paddling at school.
Well she took care of that problem. She tore my little butt up(yes it was
little then) and told my Dad when he got home from work. So that made 3
spanking I got that day. I never made that mistake again. The only way they
found out anymore was if the teacher told them.. What would a parent today
do ? They would go screaming to the boaard of education that their little
Johnny was being abused at school. What a crock of bull. I say give every
teacher a paddle and leather strap and teach them how to use them in self
defence.
Henry(Iwasn't that stupid again)
"Grumpy au Contraire" <Gru...@doofis.FAKEcom> wrote in message
news:400BA378...@doofis.FAKEcom...
Robert Black
that,babysitters.They were there to put in the time and draw their pay and
it was obvious they didn't give a f#$% one way or another cause they let the
class get away with anything.One guy,a Pakistani who believe it or not was
teaching us Canadian kids english(the man could barely speak the language
himself)used to actively promote violence between students.He used to call
it"fix up"as in Johnny threw something at me,"Fix up immediately"which meant
you had a more or less free shot at Johnny,till the next round.This guy was
totally clueless and we took advantage of the fact he didn't know any
english curse words for at least the first few months by telling him to
F-off regularly.
But Ive had a few teachers,one who Ill never forget,who put the fear of God
in us,and by gosh we learned from her,you hardly dared not to.Her name was
Eva Walton(I honestly thought her first name was "Evil"and shes a sweet
little old lady today,but then she seemed 8 ft tall,and strong as a moose
with a voice to match.If you mis-behaved in her class she would grab you by
the scruff of the neck,yank you out of your seat,shake the shit out of you
and slam you back in.We respected her and we learned from her.If teachers
acted like she did now they be in court more than in the classroom,but by
God it WAS effective.
"Henry Walter carolina.rr.com>" <hwalterjr@<removethis> wrote in message
news:ZyOOb.243484$Vu5.17...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
Itraseecab
>teacher a paddle and leather strap and teach them how to use them in self
>defence.
I began my teaching career when a paddle was a common item on most teachers'
desks. It was an effective tool, that was not used very often. (When you
paddled a kid you made sure the door was open so that the rest of the kids
could hear it.)
I am not so sure how effective it would be today. So many of our kids have
been hit, and pushed around at home, that a paddling in the hall way would
probably not be all that painful or embarassing. It is also a fact that a lot
of parents would not have the time or concern to repeat the process at home.
Joe Roberts
Itraseecab
>and politicos, we have quite a mess. Only fundamental change to include
>simplification of process will fix it but of course, such would be
>considered heresy in academia.
The biggest changes that would help modern public education would be:
1. Doing away with the massive amount of standardized testing that has become
so popular in political circles. Our President's "No Child Left Behind"
ampliphies this process more than ever. It is expensive, takes time away from
the learning process, and is not an effective way to see if children are
learning. It puts unbelievable stress on both teachers and students.
2. Allow teachers to do their jobs. That sounds rather silly I know but in
many shcool districts locally elected school boards have the final say in many
aspects of local education. In most places they are not even required to have a
high school education, let alone a degree in education. Thus they often over
rule the Board of Ed., the principal, and teacher, even in matters of
discipline. To keep up their electability they placate the parent, and voting
public.
3. Many keep screaming that money is not the answer, but while it is not the
only answer, it certainly is a part of the answer. Do not fool yourself, it is
expensive to teach children. In many places the real dollars per pupil spent
on education is shrinking. The cost of paper, books, modern technology, etc. is
skyrocheting, butg school budgets are not. If you want good teachers, you will
have to pay for them. Most educators go into their chosen field knowing they
will not get rich doing so, but a young single teacher CANNOT afford, at least
in North Carolina, to teach. Most have second jobs, many live at home, almost
none make ends meet by themselves. That is why the average experience is
around 5 years. It takes 30 to retire, yet mos give up the ghost before their
fifth year. There are a lot of really good teachers out there, who are selling
cars, realistate or working for insurance companies, because they could not
afford to raise a family while being a teacher. Money is part of the equation!
Joe Roberts
Jim
do ? They would go screaming to the boaard of education that their little
Johnny was being abused at school. >>
I have a buddy who teaches music in the Pittsburgh Public school system
He's kind of a mousey little guy who wouldn't hurt a flea but one day a kid
walked past him in the hall and punched him
My buddy grabbed the kid and pushed him against the wall 'til security could
come
End result?
Kid got off scot free- buddy lost his job- his teaching credentials- and got
sued for thousands even though the kid didn't have a mark on him-- and he lost
As a bus driver-- I am not allowed to touch kids even to seperate them if they
fight-- which is routine
I can and have called the cops to arrest them-but I have to have it documented
and on tape just in case the parents decide to sue me- Laidlaw- and the
district
Hell of situation huh?
Lee Aanderud
supply every student with a laptop computer". This was their solution to
poor test scores (SC ranks 49th in education). Somehow handing a student a
$1500 piece of electronic equipment was going to be the saving grace to our
education problems.
Another thing I saw on a news clip was of a public grade school classroom...
there was one teacher for about 20 students (seems about the right ratio to
me). This teacher spent more time getting her kids to sit in their seats
and shut up than she did trying to teach them. Having grown up in ND, I now
understand why there are so many private schools in the South. Where I grew
up private schools were viewed as "elite religion-based" schools... down
here they're the place where anyone making above minimum wage sends their
children.
I know one girl who spent 4 years as a grade school teacher... she is now a
pharmacutical sales rep. making 3 times what she did as a teacher and she
swears she'll work the drive-up window at McDonalds before going back to
teaching. It's not the teaching, it was the parents she learned to loath.
Students would sleep in class (we're talking 3rd graders), disrupt class,
talk back to her, threaten her, and there wasn't a damn thing she could do
about it. She'd send them to the principal's office... he/she would do
nothing but make the kid sit there for 30 minutes and send them back. She
would send notes home with students for the parent to call or come see
her... they'd never show or call. If she did call the student's parents,
she was threatened and many times labeled as a racist. She couldn't fail a
student... because of the emotional and psychological trama it would cause
the student by being held back. She'd send students to 4th grade who
couldn't read, write, or do basic math... just as the 2nd grade teacher sent
them to her. Parents weren't concerned about how their kids were doing in
school, they were just glad to have the little bastards (literally) out of
the house for 8 hours.
When I graduated from high school (way back in 1983), I knew that if I got
in trouble at school... it wasn't nearly as bad as the trouble I was going
to be in at home. Report cards came out every 6 weeks... if you had below a
2.0 average, or received one "F" or two "D's" (but were still above a 2.0
overall) you were not allowed to participate in any extra-curricular
activities until the next 6 week period.
Lee
"Itraseecab" <itras...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040119101821...@mb-m07.aol.com...
StudeBob
"Grumpy au Contraire" <Gru...@doofis.FAKEcom> wrote in message
news:400BA378...@doofis.FAKEcom...
>
>
StudeBob
legislators to try and force the teachers to teach their kids responsibility
and behavior. Teachers are there to hand out information in measured doses
and then gage how much the kids absorb thru their own efforts. The smartest
teacher in the world can't MAKE a kid learn something if they (the kid)
haven't had responsibility and respect drummed into them by their parents.
That said - legislators do TRY to improve results by pressuring the
schools to "teach" more effectively instead of pressuring the parents to
"parent" more effectively! The reason the pressure's put on the wrong end
is because there's a lot more parents to cast votes than there are teachers.
It's a simple math lesson in itself!
The kids that manage good enough grades to get a higher edookayshun
become lawyers that will swoop and smite any teacher that would DARE
discipline a disruptive classroom clown. Yup - Our tax money is better spent
building prisons to hold those disruptive kids after they flunked out and
killed some 7-11 clerk for a few bucks to eat off of.
When parents start to parent again - when teachers can whack a kid on the
ass and not have to worry about bein' shot or knifed in retaliation - then
we might see the kids leaving school with at least some small bits of
learning to work with.
Right now we've got plenty of job openings in the military for high
school washouts. With shafted guard and reservists folks leaving in droves,
there'll be plenty of openings for anyone who can be a target. No real
experience required.
And rather than spend any of the money we're printing so freely to prop
up our overpaid school staffs, we're gonna go have an outing on Mars to
prove that we can! For that venture, we won't have a shortage of smart folks
to pull it off. We've got a vast pool of well-educated youngsters in India
to draw from. And as soon as the Indain kids get us there, there'll be
service sector jobs for U.S. kids at the new McDonalds and WalMarts that
will surely be erected.
"Henry Walter carolina.rr.com>" <hwalterjr@<removethis> wrote in message
news:ZyOOb.243484$Vu5.17...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
StudeBob
"Robert Black" <golde...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> But Ive had a few teachers,one who Ill never forget,who put the fear of
God
> in us,and by gosh we learned from her,you hardly dared not to.Her name was
> Eva Walton(I honestly thought her first name was "Evil"and shes a sweet
> little old lady today,but then she seemed 8 ft tall,and strong as a moose
> with a voice to match.If you mis-behaved in her class she would grab you
by
> the scruff of the neck,yank you out of your seat,shake the shit out of you
> and slam you back in.We respected her and we learned from her.If teachers
> acted like she did now they be in court more than in the classroom,but by
> God it WAS effective.
You are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO right, Robert.. Good ol' Miss G.!
Man when that gal strode into the classroom - it better well be as quiet
as a morgue! She could make you feel smaller than the spitwad you dared your
life to toss at someone in her classroom. There was NO BULLSHIT in her room
and you learned stuff EVEN IF YOU DIDN'T WANT TO! You learned to turn in
SOMETHING even if it was ridiculously error-filled. If you didn't, the whole
class would hear what a lazy slug of uselessness you were. Heh - if a
teacher were to try to rule like that now - it would be on national news
right up til the moment they slammed the prison door shut on them!
StudeBob
been grading papers since she got up this morning. (Big treat for her was
that she didn't HAVE to roll outta bed at 6:15) I suggessted that we drive
up to the mountains for breakfast today. So we did. I enjoyed the scenery of
the trip while she graded maps of europe that were an assignment last week.
Most of them looked like crap. A majority of them were incomplete. But the
kids and their parents expect if they've scribbled some lines on a paper -
the teacher's obligated to objectively evaluate them as tho the little
darlings busted their butts on the assignment.
When she's done with the papers, she'll be working on lesson plans for
tomorrows classes. She teaches history and civics and they (the teachers at
her school) try to use current events to infuse a sense of relevance into
their teachings - like the election process going on right now. There are
some teachers that would just turn on CNN and let the kids watch it while
they (the teachers) do papers or other administerial duties. But my wife
(and the greater majority of her co-workers) spends time condensing and
winnowing the points of the day to get to something that the kids can grasp
and retain.
A teacher's "off time" is hardly a vacation. Not if they're a
responsible teacher. And as to school costing money - it would be
interesting if she kept a tally of how much she lays out (out of her own
pocket, that is) for school stuff. Stuff that rightly should be paid for by
the school but since there's no money for it, it's either SHE buys it or she
goes without.
It's easy to lash out at legislators or a given party or even lazy-assed
teachers as a cause for kids being stupid in school. But a kids education is
a co-operative effort. And so long as parents think that birthing a kid and
putting clothes on it and sending it out the door with a lunchbox is all
that's required at THEIR end, they's gonna have sissy or sonny livin' at
home for some time to come.
My wife keeps beating herself up because she has soooooooo many kids
flunk every semester. Each time she starts to fret, I remind her that she
ALSO has kids that get A's and B's as well. If THEY can get passing grades
on the stuff she doles out, so can the others. They just aren't motivated -
either on their own or via their parents - to do the tasks required to pass.
Even if the kids ONLY turn in incomplete assignments, they could pass. Heh -
that's too much trouble. The consequence of which is inevitably an F.
"Itraseecab" <itras...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040119101821...@mb-m07.aol.com...
karl haas
That's why so many non-Catholic parents are paying for their kids to
be educated at schools with names like "Our Lady of Perpetual
Conception" - they get them away from the uncared for riff-raff. (Be
dat a bad wurd?)
PS I studied to be a math and physics teacher, but my teaching sister
and BIL talked me out of it. Flunking Advanced Calculas twice and
getting a "Good-Bye" message also had some effect.
Karl
karl haas
All your points are valid, but acting on #2 would solve the others.
I was talking with an elected official(School Board member) and he wondered
why all the nuts ended up on the School Board.
With great tact, I avoided pointing out that he was one of the worst.
(He was in charge of QA and I needed his approval.)
Karl
Paul Johnson
"StudeBob" <studebo...@clearskye.net> wrote in message
news:3918e951c3a52822...@news.teranews.com...
>... A teacher's "off time" is hardly a vacation. Not if they're a
> responsible teacher. And as to school costing money - it would be
> interesting if she kept a tally of how much she lays out (out of her own
> pocket, that is) for school stuff. Stuff that rightly should be paid for
by
> the school but since there's no money for it, it's either SHE buys it or
she
> goes without.
>... Even if the kids ONLY turn in incomplete assignments, they could pass.
Heh -
> that's too much trouble. The consequence of which is inevitably an F.
>
My hat is off to you professional teachers (or mates to teachers). I don't
know how anyone could retain their sanity for 30 or more years to
retirement.
I had always thought it would be fun to try teaching. So, a few years ago I
responded to an ad in the local paper for a high school level teaching
position at the local three-county "technical institute" (trade school). I
got the job. I wasn't concerned about the pay and it's a good thing I
wasn't. My Masters Degree, 0 years experience starting salary was less than
my 20-year Navy retirement pay. Being at the trade school was probably part
of the problem. Many of the students from the six high schools were sent
there by their home schools to get them out of their own buildings. My
classes averaged 16 kids. Of those, maybe three had any interest in the
subject. As Studebob points out, homework was a joke. I had to allow time
in class to get any turned in at all. In the two years that I lasted, I saw
one parent and that wasn't because there was any problem. One dad was
simply interested in what was going on (coincidentally, his daughter was one
of my best students).
Another eye opener was how poorly educated many of the students were for the
grade levels they had achieved (juniors and seniors). I had kids that
didn't know directions (North, West, etc.). Most had no concept of scale
and using measuring tools (like a ruler). I guess one consolation was I got
extra money for my classroom because my group had the lowest reading
comprehension score average in the school.
My day in the classroom started at 7 am and I usually went home about 5 pm.
In addition, I usually graded papers and worked on lesson plans at home.
Also, to keep my license I had to complete a correspondence course each
semester on my own time and at my expense. I also was required to go to
full time classes two weeks in the summer at a college 300 miles from home,
again at my own expense. I was on a 180-day contract, but my program had
tasks that had to be taken care of during the summer and on weekends. So,
effectively I worked year round for 3/4 pay. Incidentally, in two years I
didn't take ANY days off (sick or otherwise).
Another thing that shocked me was that probably half the students had jobs
after school, some working until midnight. One of my collateral tasks was
to wake up students when they fell asleep in class (I know I was dull, but
not that dull)<G>. I didn't have trouble with discipline, but I had to be
VERY careful. Only one kid ever really sassed me- called me a racist
bastard because I got after him for playing rap music very loudly on his
boom box on a field trip. We had kind of a stand-off. He turned down the
music and I decided that maybe the way I made my remark wasn't smart. A
couple weeks into the summer I picked up the local paper to read that he had
shot a man in the groin in a drug deal gone bad. My classroom was in a
remote building from the rest of the campus. I couldn't allow a single
student to stay after class because of the liability (two or more or the
presence of another teacher was okay).
Another problem was lack of support from the the Board of Education. When I
started, students had to make up days to complete the semester if they had
missed more than four days. Midway in the semester, someone challenged that
ruling and it was decided that the rule wouldn't stand up in court so it was
dropped. My last semester I had a student that missed 29 days (just
couldn't get up in the morning).
I'm not trying to say that all teachers are great. From the "inside" I saw
some very dedicated, hard-working teachers, but I also saw a number that
were just collecting their checks. I guess in many cases we are "getting
what we paid for".
I finally decided I didn't need all that and it was stupid to risk my mental
and physical health. Even worse, it was interfering with my
Studebakering.
Paul Johnson
Paul Johnson
> fifth year. ...
We had one new teacher quit after his first class.
Paul Johnson
Craig Parslow
"Lee Aanderud" <aand...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:o9TOb.22179$0t4....@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
>
> Another thing I saw on a news clip was of a public grade school
classroom...
> there was one teacher for about 20 students (seems about the right ratio
to
> me). This teacher spent more time getting her kids to sit in their seats
> and shut up than she did trying to teach them. Having grown up in ND, I
now
> understand why there are so many private schools in the South. Where I
grew
> up private schools were viewed as "elite religion-based" schools... down
> here they're the place where anyone making above minimum wage sends their
> children.
>
> I know one girl who spent 4 years as a grade school teacher... she is now
a
> pharmacutical sales rep. making 3 times what she did as a teacher and she
> swears she'll work the drive-up window at McDonalds before going back to
> teaching. It's not the teaching, it was the parents she learned to loath.
> Students would sleep in class (we're talking 3rd graders), disrupt class,
> talk back to her, threaten her, and there wasn't a damn thing she could do
> about it.
I will agree with that after what my sister went through. Admittedly she
taught in a low-to-middle class area where there were plenty of unstable
"families". The "family" being the single mother with a grade two-er (which
my sister taught before she left), and a three year old. The student's
record card had three (yep three) surnames on it; the mother's, the
student's and the live-in boyfriend's, (very often by February, the live-in
from September was crossed out, and a new one penciled in). The major
problem was getting the students to do their homework assignments. The
worst was on welfare day when the cheques came in, and the parent would be
off playing bingo, etc., and had to babysit the younger sibling(s). Like
most here, one couldn't go outside or watch TV until our homework was done.
That was the rule at the time. Now with both parents working (when there
actually are TWO parents), kids no longer get the supervision we were used
to. A teacher's dillema is that he/she must keep up with the school's
curriculum, and cannot fall behind, even though the affected students most
definitely shouldn't be allowed to progress farther on. Most often, the
school administration has no clue as to what goes on in classrooms these
days, and all the fingers get pointed at the teacher when things go 'wrong'.
My sis wanted to help some of the students that were really falling behind,
but was looked down upon by the other staff with her extra effort, being
reminded her school is NOT a daycare, and the teachers' association as well
as the admistration gave no support in that area whatsoever. The teacher
was supposed to only do her teaching between 8:30-10:00; 10:15-11:45;
1:00-2:30; 2:45-3:30, and the lunch and 15 minute recess breaks were for the
kids. The teachers had to supervise a roomfull of unruly kids where it was
too far them to go home for lunch, and break up fights at recess time, so
the teachers never truly got a break. My sister made her lucky break when
the audio-visual salesperson was in the A-V room restocking some of the
supplies while she was going to get an overhead projector. A conversation
resulted, and she ended up getting on with that firm now in sales where she
gets benefits she never got while teaching, such as full medical, and a car
allowance, and most important; some respect and appreciation.
Craig
StudeBob
StudeBob
career, secretarial or nursing. At least that's what the career counselors
put forth. She headed for what seemed the most appealing to her. (Not having
a CLUE to what it was REALLY like with a bunch of little "darlings" to
contend with. <G>)
I seriously worry about her mental health sometimes as far as the rigors
and stress of her job goes. She's in too deep now to throw away all the
years she's got vested in the school system. Another decade and she can
escape. Provided some little butthead don't pull a knife or a gun on her
before the time passes!
"Paul Johnson" <thejo...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:n9%Ob.4416$MH....@news02.roc.ny...
>
Craig Parslow
"Jim" <cee...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20040119104324...@mb-m14.aol.com...
Thank GOD I don't have kids!! I'd do anything not to pay school taxes
since I'm not contributing to the world's education problems. Now only if I
could get the government to have me swear an oath that I'm NEVER going to
have kids, and sign a document that I'll pay back taxes if I lose my mind
and accidently have one....
Craig.
TedHarbit
>fer the worse systematically speaking. Am I correct Ted?
>
Yep. I think I relayed a short time ago one of the many things that helped me
decide to retire early.
Ted
StudeBob
offspring of others.
"Craig Parslow" <stude...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:iI%Ob.174513$JQ1.61274@pd7tw1no...
TedHarbit
>wasn't. My Masters Degree, 0 years experience starting salary was less than
>my 20-year Navy retirement pay.>
When Missy, (our daughter) got out of college, she got a job as a sales rep and
her first year she made more plus had car expense and better benefits than Mary
Ann made with a master degree and 25 years experience teaching.
Ted
John Poulos
than I was ever paid even running my own business.
TedHarbit wrote:
--
JP/Maryland
Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com
My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/
63 R2 4 speed Daytona HT(Md.keeper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
63 GT Hawk
63 Avanti R3 clone(Md.keeper)
Itraseecab
>since I'm not contributing to the world's education problems.
The problem with that is that no country can survive, especially a democracy,
without a good system of public education. It doesn't matter if you have kids
or not, education is the future of the country. The lack of a good public
school system affects everyone, parents and non-parents alike.
Joe Roberts
Craig Parslow
> Kind of isolationist thinking Craig - since you have to LIVE amongst the
> offspring of others.
I'm a firm beliver in the 'user-pay' system. If a product or a service
costs money to obtain or operate, be prepared to pay for it! My licence
renewal fees went up last year, but I'm not complaining one bit about that.
I have seen some tremendous improvements in our road system here. But on
the other hand, if I'm not using a service, why should I have to pay for
it???
Craig.
karl haas
a generic student, "Lady, I dare you to teach me."
Karl
"StudeBob" <studebo...@clearskye.net> wrote in message news:<4ae8b7d21263f6f6...@news.teranews.com>...
karl haas
> When my dear wife went to college, girls had a choice of a teaching
> career, secretarial or nursing. At least that's what the career counselors
> put forth. She headed for what seemed the most appealing to her. (Not having
> a CLUE to what it was REALLY like with a bunch of little "darlings" to
> contend with. <G>)
> I seriously worry about her mental health sometimes as far as the rigors
> and stress of her job goes. She's in too deep now to throw away all the
> years she's got vested in the school system. Another decade and she can
> escape. Provided some little butthead don't pull a knife or a gun on her
> before the time passes!
>
>
by
twenty years, peaking at CDR. Retired and married a retired
four-striper.
Wonder how far she would have gone had it happened a few year later.
Karl (At one time were were serving almost exactly opposite each other
on the globe.) Haas
mark dunning
"Learn me, I dare Ya!"
Mark (used to be a professional USAF Student) Dunning
"karl haas" <mid...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:d48deeb6.04012...@posting.google.com...
StudeBob
make up for the deficiencies of their education, you'll feel you're getting
your money's worth for the law response and the money it costs you to keep
the miscreants incarcerated??? Wouldn't it have been easier and cheaper for
you to ante up for their education instead of picking up the pieces later???
"Craig Parslow" <stude...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:p63Pb.176785$JQ1.171406@pd7tw1no...
StudeBob
"TedHarbit" <tedh...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> When Missy, (our daughter) got out of college, she got a job as a sales
rep and
> her first year she made more plus had car expense and better benefits than
Mary
> Ann made with a master degree and 25 years experience teaching.
>
> Ted
There ya go! And folks can't understand why there's a shortage of really
good teacher material to select from. Locally, the school board has had a
habit of giving veteran teachers a "golden handshake" allowance for an early
retirement. This as a manuver to save money by hiring new teachers they can
pay less. Thing is, there's not enough new teachers to draw from! Further -
while such a tactic balances the checkbook - what does it do to the overall
quality of the teaching staff - dumping the proven veterans???
John Poulos
lottery was counting on it's 1.4 million share of the taxes but forgot
to update the towns charter to include lottery winnings. <g>
StudeBob wrote:
--
Gordon Richmond
other peoples' little bastards employable, so they will be too busy
flipping burgers to burglarize your house. <G>
Gord Richmond
Craig Parslow
"Gordon Richmond" <rich...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:jrar00h9f0l9afvuc...@4ax.com...
> As it was explained to me, Craig, the theory is that education makes
> other peoples' little bastards employable, so they will be too busy
> flipping burgers to burglarize your house. <G>
.....Like what they did to Curt's cars??
Craig.
>
> Gord Richmond
Craig Parslow
> So when those under-educated kids rob you or burglarize your place to
> make up for the deficiencies of their education, you'll feel you're
getting
> your money's worth for the law response and the money it costs you to keep
> the miscreants incarcerated???
Then lets divert the $1000 or so I pay a year for education to where its
really needed like our health system, especially old age care (the other end
of the age spectrum) We are all going to get there one day, and I know I'd
be real happy to see all that money I pay go to the best of care for myself
and others when that time comes. A case in point is a couple of our local
chapter members who are now elderly used to enjoy a weekend drive to an SDC
Zone Meet in Washington or Montana. Now, even before they back their
Studebaker out of the garage, its starts with a $400 bill for the weekend
between the two of them. Health coverage is outrageous for anyone over 65
who wishes to travel out of the country, and I woundn't mind seeing some of
that "Edcuation Tax" that I've been paying for help those in that situation,
and possibly myself when I get there....
Wouldn't it have been easier and cheaper for
> you to ante up for their education instead of picking up the pieces
later???
There are two groups who have children that should not be taxed; the parents
who send their kids to A) a private school where proper (and I will
emphasize the word 'proper') discipline is adminstered, and pay out of the
own pockets the tuition, which are VERY high here, like $15-20k a year; and
B) the home-schoolers. I know some teachers who have given up on the
constraints of the public system and have gone into private tutoring. The
teachers (including my Saturday bosses' wife) I have spoken to have found it
much more rewarding, as the can actually help a child progress on an
induvidual basis, and they can honestly feel they have earned their money
for the job well done. Did you catch that PBS two-part special some years
ago that was called "Education in America", Bob? I just remember it was
sponsored by Chrysler, and before you blast the home-schoolers, one can see
why so many have turned to home schooling after watching that program!!
Gordon Richmond
Gord Richmond
StudeBob
infrasturcture, you could probably find a nice little deserted island to be
all by yourself. You could lay out only so much cash as you deemed necessary
for roads to cruise your Stude on and you could spend whatever amount you
wanted for a defense system to keep the pirates of common society from
stealing your larder. Sadly, that's not usually the case. There's lots more
folks that CAN'T afford private schools than those that can. Home
schooling's a GREAT idea, Craig. Sadly, most families have to have two
incomes to make ends meet nowdays. The idealized life of old TV shows like
Father knows best and Lassie, where mom stayed "in her place" isn't a viable
reality any more.
And the last I checked (even in Canada), they haven't established
segregated areas for the desirables to live apart from the UN-desirables.
Once you have the blueprints for such an arrangement your money worries will
be over because you'll be filthy rich from selling your plan to the
uppercrusteans so they can live apart from the lowly rabble of common
society.
Ya know Craig - maybe we Stude folks yearn for independence more than
most. After all - if you're DIE-hard Stude, you're STILL driving one in
spite of it going upstream against convention! How hard is to think you
might have trouble accepting other facets of societal intercourse? <G>
Heh - Also - if medical care for you is looking tough - ponder why more
americans are coming to your part of the continent for relief!
"Craig Parslow" <stude...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:8pkPb.194477$JQ1.124406@pd7tw1no...
bob40
around here have rules concerning least amount of sq. footage per
home,garage sizes,yes/no to outbuildings and even how many vehicles you are
"allowed" per housing unit.They are building such an area on the ex-farmland
to my west and I'm sure it wont be long that the notices to cease and desist
enjoying my car hobby will start even though I keep things neat and
tidy(kinda)<G>
Bob(7 cars here now....8 more Studes to bring home)40
StudeBob
Bob,
Maybe you've not been here long enough to remember my recount of the
county coming after me over my "junkyard". And gated communities abound
here of late. (Of course, these enclaves create jobs for illegals to prune
lawns and service Koi ponds - so that's a good thing <G>)
I think we're gonna move from here when the wife retires (I KNOW we are!)
And by that time the city will have expanded to encompass what's now our
"County" plot. The city has ways to deal with miscreants like me! And
there'll be no escaping their enforcements short of escaping this plot of
dirt.
"bob40" <rrei...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:%dyPb.8247$Yl1....@news02.roc.ny...
K. Marion
for education. We have a tremendous drop out rate, teen pregnancy rate
and just a lot of gang bangers and general drug use. The public
schools are a mess. I pay hundreds of dollars for my kid to play
sports, there is absolutely no music at all. It's a mess. In Phoenix
where there are a lot of retirement communities the attitude is "I
raised my kids, why do I have to pay?". A quality education, free to
all, makes for strong citizens and a intelligent workforce. We need to
spend more money on education just because parents are not taking
responsibility for their kids. There is no one else to do it, but the
public school system. I say give the teachers a big raise, make it
dependant on education and excellence in teaching. They will respond.
Get rid of tenure in the colleges. Give the schools the money they
need to teach the kids, and yes, babysit the miscreants. Maybe
something for counseling and drug treatment. The only other people who
can deal in any matter with problem kids is the justice system. Don't
know about other places, but our Police and courts are maxed out as it
is. KM
Craig Parslow
> Ya know Craig, with all the money you'd save from not paying for
public
> infrasturcture, you could probably find a nice little deserted island to
be
> all by yourself. You could lay out only so much cash as you deemed
necessary
> for roads to cruise your Stude on and you could spend whatever amount you
> wanted for a defense system to keep the pirates of common society from
> stealing your larder.
Now wouldn't that be nice for all us Stude lovers? A little paradise for
Independents like us? Along with a great defence to keep out The General,
Henry's offspring, and other 'enemies' invading 'Studebaker Only' roads?
<g>
Sadly, that's not usually the case. There's lots more
> folks that CAN'T afford private schools than those that can. Home
> schooling's a GREAT idea, Craig. Sadly, most families have to have two
> incomes to make ends meet nowdays. The idealized life of old TV shows like
> Father knows best and Lassie, where mom stayed "in her place" isn't a
viable
> reality any more.
> And the last I checked (even in Canada), they haven't established
> segregated areas for the desirables to live apart from the UN-desirables.
> Once you have the blueprints for such an arrangement your money worries
will
> be over because you'll be filthy rich from selling your plan to the
> uppercrusteans so they can live apart from the lowly rabble of common
> society.
Keep in mind there are other issues that have been accepted since public
eduacation began that have since become an expensive and needless albatross.
Do we really NEED two school boards; the public and the separate system?
You have two of everything in the top levels (central office), something
that is truly a waste of public money. Not to mention, at the school level,
it can create animosity in certain neighborhoods (though not as bad as
Northern Ireland). There should be only one central school system. If the
parents want their children to learn about religion, they can either go to
church and learn all about in a house-of-worship, or privately fund their
own school system. Where I live, the Jewish school is privately supported,
as is the Calvin Christian (Dutch Reformed) school.
Craig.
Craig Parslow
"K. Marion" <kelm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:6c07d98f.04012...@posting.google.com...
> Youze get what you paid for. My state is 49th in spending per child
> for education. We have a tremendous drop out rate, teen pregnancy rate
> and just a lot of gang bangers and general drug use. The public
> schools are a mess
That's the same in most any area, be it #1 or #49.
I pay hundreds of dollars for my kid to play
> sports, there is absolutely no music at all. It's a mess. In Phoenix
> where there are a lot of retirement communities the attitude is "I
> raised my kids, why do I have to pay?".
Up until recently, in Alberta, anyone over 65 didn't have to pay school tax.
Craig.
StudeBob
You say good things, Kelly. The one thing you miss tho is making the
parents parent. You can put all the pressure and awards you want on the
"system". But they can ONLY work with the quality of kids that walk thru the
doors every morning. And they CAN'T discipline them anymore, so what's gonna
make the kids change if not for their folks???????????? Concieving and
delivering is the easy part! It's the other 18 years that's tough!
"K. Marion" <kelm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:6c07d98f.04012...@posting.google.com...
Grumpy au Contraire
That's why I got myself "fixed" nearly thirty years ago...
Grumpy au Contraire
JT
--
Grumpy au Contraire
Texas. Ol' Glock is never too far away...
JT
--
Grumpy au Contraire
Uh, I don't know of any "good" public education system these days.
Until the system is fundamentally changed, there is not much hope for
the future much in the same way as is the outlook for good skilled and
technical jobs...
Grumpy au Contraire
Itraseecab wrote:
>
> >Between, (yup, I gotta say it), the teacher's unions, social engineers,
> >and politicos, we have quite a mess. Only fundamental change to include
> >simplification of process will fix it but of course, such would be
> >considered heresy in academia.
>
> The biggest changes that would help modern public education would be:
> 1. Doing away with the massive amount of standardized testing that has become
> so popular in political circles. Our President's "No Child Left Behind"
> ampliphies this process more than ever. It is expensive, takes time away from
> the learning process, and is not an effective way to see if children are
> learning. It puts unbelievable stress on both teachers and students.
How would a simple skills assessment test at the end of every academic
year be "pensive?" Surely you have to admit that a basic level of
functionality is required in order to pass on to the next grade??
> 2. Allow teachers to do their jobs. That sounds rather silly I know but in
> many shcool districts locally elected school boards have the final say in many
> aspects of local education. In most places they are not even required to have a
> high school education, let alone a degree in education. Thus they often over
> rule the Board of Ed., the principal, and teacher, even in matters of
> discipline. To keep up their electability they placate the parent, and voting
> public.
"Their" jobs have to be defined in terms based on national standards.
There should not be any difference in the level of teaching be it in
California or Delaware. That is the purpose of standardization. We as
a nation must compete globally and every state should be capable of
meeting that challenge. Standardization puts everyone on the same
level. Some will make it, some won't. That's just the way it is and no
one will EVER be able to change it.
> 3. Many keep screaming that money is not the answer, but while it is not the
> only answer, it certainly is a part of the answer. Do not fool yourself, it is
> expensive to teach children. In many places the real dollars per pupil spent
> on education is shrinking. The cost of paper, books, modern technology, etc. is
> skyrocheting, butg school budgets are not. If you want good teachers, you will
> have to pay for them. Most educators go into their chosen field knowing they
> will not get rich doing so, but a young single teacher CANNOT afford, at least
> in North Carolina, to teach. Most have second jobs, many live at home, almost
> none make ends meet by themselves. That is why the average experience is
> around 5 years. It takes 30 to retire, yet mos give up the ghost before their
> fifth year. There are a lot of really good teachers out there, who are selling
> cars, realistate or working for insurance companies, because they could not
> afford to raise a family while being a teacher. Money is part of the equation!
> Joe Roberts
Private education costs less than public per pupil while public
education is stuffed with lots of unnecessary frills and is a nest for
empire building. Until the public accepts the fact that guv'ment can't
be everything to everyone, the social engineers, etc. will rule over a
continually declining level of education.
Grumpy au Contraire
Fret not as dumping "veterans" is standard practice everywhere.
The problem with education is the system. It dearly needs to be
simplified, goals defined, and then press on. At the present time,
there are far too many fingers in the pie as has been proven by the
discussion here.
I have often used that all education should be operated by the Defense
Department as education of citizens is a vital national resource. And
by this, I mean BASIC sound education that maintains the same standard
where ever one is. Those that make it through have a future, those that
don't... Well that's just the way it is and has to be...
Grumpy au Contraire
It all comes down to personal responsibility.
We must demand it!
JT
--
TedHarbit
behind", is as stupid as most of the others our politicians come up with. They
need to get real. There will never be a system that leaves no child behind as
there are way too many varibles between students, parents, schools, states,
etc. That's life and just the way it is just like there will always be poor
people and rich people.
I don't aim for this to start a politcal war/contest here. Both parties have
the same selfish people that will say and do anything to get elected no matter
how much it costs US!
I might as well get this off my chest too: One of our problems is that too
many people would vote for Donald Duck if he was the candidate on their party
and he was running against Jesus Christ on the opposite party. Two party
system is needed but we need to look at both candidates and vote the the best
person.
OK, I'll shut up now.
Ted
K. Marion
as the shit hits the fan. We need something to be done right now, not
sit back and make demands that will only be met by a failed system
that sinks further and further under. Over half of all marriages end
in divorce, church attendance is down, more kids are living with
relatives, especially grandparents than ever before. How can we demand
responsibility from folks that don't know what the word means? Throw
everyone in jail? Talk about money spent. We have to work with what we
have, teachers and the school system. Give them the support they need.
Right now it's all we have, right or wrong. Schools are the only place
outside the family where morals and responsibility can be taught. It
won't reach them all, maybe just a few, but it is all we got as good
family units become fewer and fewer. So our answer is teachers are
overpaid? I think they are grossly underpaid for the job they do. Go
sit in on a major high school class sometime. You'll see what I mean.
KM
Grumpy au Contraire
Another STUPID statement was Hillary's, "It takes a village to raise a
child," which in effect disavows totally the principle of personal
responsibility. Ya gotta love 'em...
John Poulos
wander the streets safely, every store owner knew me and looked out for
me. I'd sit behind the register at Walgreens, grab a cookie at the Fanny
Mae bakery or play with the toys at Goldbatt's. If I screwed up at
school, my parents were called.
It just shows how different folks view the same statement, I
took to mean parents, teachers, church and others in the commuinty
working togeather to raise a child.
>
> Another STUPID statement was Hillary's, "It takes a village to raise a
> child," which in effect disavows totally the principle of personal
> responsibility. Ya gotta love 'em...
>
>
>
--
Itraseecab
>How would a simple skills assessment test at the end of every academic
>year be "pensive?" Surely you have to admit that a basic level of
>functionality is required in order to pass on to the next grade??
The word was "expensive." There are no "simple skill assesment tests anymore.
There are multiple tests, in multiple subjects that take a week or more to
take. On top of that since both teachers and students (unfortunately more
teachers than students) are judged by these tests, many days during the school
year are used in practice tests, getting everyone ready for the real thing.
Pay bonuses are usually attached to the performance of students on such tests.
However, with the "no child left behind" BS, it is almost impossible to for
schools to score high enough for their teachers to get such a benifit. At the
last school I taught at it came down to the score of one Special Eductation
student in Math (there were 900 students in the school). One such student
failed and since his sub group did not perform up to levels required by the
federal gov't. The teachers did not get the bonus. This despite the fact that
over 85% of the students within the school performed above the required level.
>
>"Their" jobs have to be defined in terms based on national standards.
>There should not be any difference in the level of teaching be it in
>California or Delaware.
Since education is usually a state controlled thing, putting national standards
on education does not work. One of the biggest problems in education is that
the national government sets up "standards" but refuses to fund the
implimentation of them.
>Standardization puts everyone on the same
>level. Some will make it, some won't. That's just the way it is
But our President does not seem to see that way. ALL students are expected to
make it, under the "no child left behind" criteria. In North Carolina, for
example, all students are expected to be able to successfully pass Algebra I.
I am sorry, but not every student is capable of doing that. Yet if a student
passes everything, including business math and his enough credits to graduate,
but has not passed Algebra I he/she does not get a diploma.
>Private education costs less than public per pupil
That is not correct. In most places the cost to send a child to a GOOD private
school exceeds what the government spends per pupil in the public school
setting.
>Until the public accepts the fact that guv'ment can't
>be everything to everyone, the social engineers, etc. will rule over a
>continually declining level of education.
If the government is not going to support the public education system, how can
it require an education of students up to the age of 16 (most states)?
There is just more to this than any simple answer can take care of.
Joe Roberts
rmc61coupe
Ok 2cents time
We are in a vast minority. The older folks have done their job and
some are now raising the grandkids. Both Mom and Dad work. Or just
Mom. Come home fix dinner clean and have the kids do the home work.
Yeah right, it just doesn't happen. It is easier to just bail out and
walk away and the kids are damaged goods because of that. The message
that has been sent out is you have something you don't like to do then
just leave it in a hurry. Call it whatever you want but it won't get
fixed because for 25-30 years that has been the message. No one wants
to try and stick with it to fix things.
I guess that is why I still stick with a Studebaker. As was stated in
the Smithsonian Magazine 10 years ago that we fix the cars of that
time because we can not go back to that time and we can not fix the
time we are in. My folks lived through a depression, world war and
managed to raise three kids that turned out well. My mother had cancer
diagnosed when I was 10 years old but fought the battle till I was 34.
Talk about not quitting. My dad died 30 years ago when he was 57:
heart disease. Mom had just gone through a second cancer surgery when
he got sick. There were many rocky roads the 29 years they were
married but they stuck out the contract. My wife is a health assistant
at a school in Tucson: another word for substitue mother but she loves
her job even with all the crap the system and state throws at here.
Our last child is a senior in High School and has already been
accepted at the UofA.
Stick with it and encourage everyone to stick with it too. Try to work
at a small local level in what ever way you can. Encourage your kids
and grandkids
Bob Miles
Tucson AZ