Question regarding Intake Manifold on 3800 Series II
Rusty Shackleford
and have come across something that sort of caught me off guard. I was
scoping out customer feedback on MSN for the '98 Bonneville and I read about
a half-dozen or so reports from owners that had the intake manifold warp on
them. My question is: Is this a freak occurrence? (I didn't find any
complaints about '97 or '99 Bonnevilles, or for '97-'00 GP's) Are there any
aluminum manifolds available as drop-in replacements (maybe off of a 3800
equipped Firebird or Camaro?) Would I be better off buying a GP or Bonnie
with the Supercharged 3800 instead of the base 3800? I've wanted to buy a
car specifically with the 3.8 due to its durability, so I could plan on
keeping it well past 200,000 miles. If there is anyone out there that could
give me some pointers, I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks, Rusty Shackleford...
BTW, there was a link in one of the reviews that went to an online
petition...
http://www.petitiononline.com/GMcnsmrs/petition.html
DeathRat64
using plastic upper intakes for some time now. These intakes leak coolant
&/or oil when they get too hot (and therefore warp). There was no general
recall ever done by GM (That I know of). The Series I's (92 - 94) were
prone to this problem & the Series II's (95 - 03) were also prone to this
problem as well as rear main seal leaks & valve cover leaks.
--
--
DeathRat
GM Partsman for Pontiac Dealership
Forum Administrator of The Bonneville Intensity Performance:
http://www.friedpoodle.com/bip/
Email: death...@yahoo.ca
--
"DeathRatz Bone-Evil" Mods:
1992 Bonneville SE (Garnet Red Metallic Exterior/Gray Interior)
Performance P225/60R16 Tires on Stock Mags; AC Delco Platinum Plugs;
Sylvania "Cool Blue" Headlight Bulbs; Amour Guard Headlight & Diving Light
Film; Tinted Tail Lights; Mobil 1 10W30 Synthetic Oil; License Plate Bulbs
Changed to Red; All Interior Bulbs/Covers Changed to Red; Painted Red Upper
Intake & Valve Covers; Skull Motif Through Out.
--
"Rusty Shackleford" <leec...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:VFQC9.25$tJ6....@news.uswest.net...
TJ 727
wrote:
>Actually this has been a common problem since 1992! You see GM has been
>using plastic upper intakes for some time now. These intakes leak coolant
>&/or oil when they get too hot (and therefore warp). There was no general
>recall ever done by GM (That I know of). The Series I's (92 - 94) were
>prone to this problem & the Series II's (95 - 03) were also prone to this
>problem as well as rear main seal leaks & valve cover leaks.
>
About how many miles before that becomes a problem?
DeathRat64
--
--
DeathRat_DemiGod
GM Partsman for Pontiac Dealership
Email: death...@yahoo.ca
--
"TJ 727" <tj...@KNOThotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3df07a5d...@news.kih.net...
clevere
cracked valve cover when I bought my car, it was plastic... they gave me a
new aluminum valve cover as the replacement manufacturers part.
"DeathRat64" <death...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:rB9I9.168819$ka.38...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
TJ 727
wrote:
>Depends on overheating the engine.
Oh okay, I got it, shouldn't be a problem unless overheated?
okay, nevermind
thanks
shiden_kai
"TJ 727" wrote
> Oh okay, I got it, shouldn't be a problem unless overheated?
>
> okay, nevermind
The problem with the GEN II 3800 has nothing to
with overheating the engine. The EGR tube the goes
up through the plastic upper intake plenum can cause
the upper intake to warp/degrade around that area.
There is a TSB on this issue: see below:
Engine Coolant Consumption or Coolant Leak (Inspect for Material
Degradation/Replace Intake Manifolds) #01-06-01-007A - (07/18/2001)
Engine Coolant Consumption or Coolant Leak (Inspect For Material
Degradation/Replace Intake Manifolds)
1995-1997 Buick Riviera
1995-1998 Buick LeSabre, Park Avenue
1996-1998 Buick Regal
1998 Chevrolet Lumina, Monte Carlo
1995-1996 Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight
1995-1998 Oldsmobile Eighty-Eight
1998 Oldsmobile Intrigue
1995-1998 Pontiac Bonneville
1997-1998 Pontiac Grand Prix
with 3.8 L Engine (VIN K -- RPO L36)
This bulletin is being revised to correct parts and labor operation usage.
Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 01-06-01-007 (Section 6 - Engine).
Condition
Some owners may comment on excessive engine coolant consumption, or an
engine coolant leak near or under the throttle body area of the upper intake
manifold.
Cause
Upper intake manifold composite material may degrade around the EGR stove
pipe and could result in an internal or external coolant leak.
Correction
1.. Follow the upper intake manifold removal instructions found in the
Engine Unit Repair Section of the Service Information Manual.
2.. Refer to the arrow in the illustration of the upper intake manifold
above. Inspect the inner diameter of the EGR passage for signs of material
degradation. Degradation will appear as "pitting" of the composite material
in the EGR port passage.
3.. If degradation of upper intake manifold composite material is found,
replace the lower and upper intake manifolds with the following part
numbers:
a.. Lower Intake -- 24508923
b.. Upper Intake -- 17113136 (includes necessary upper intake plenum
gaskets)
c.. Lower Intake Gasket -- 12537197
4.. Follow the lower and upper intake manifold installation instructions
found in the Engine Unit Repair Section of the appropriate Service Manual.
5.. If degradation is not apparent, skip to Step 7.
6.. Verify the repair.
7.. If no degradation is found, evaluate the vehicle for other causes of
excessive coolant consumption as noted in the Engine Diagnosis Section of
the appropriate Service Manual.
Parts Information
Part Number
Description
Qty
17113136
Manifold, Upper Intake*
1
24508923
Manifold, Lower Intake
1
12537197
Gasket, Lower Intake
1
* Includes the necessary gaskets for upper intake replacement.
Parts are currently available from GMSPO.
Donna Chavez
problems for some time - which our so-called mechanic could never
identify. In August it reached a critical point (coolant in the
engine) so they replaced the head gasket (cost $2k+). It continued to
lose coolant. We continued to return it the mechanic who was _never_
able to identify the cause. This week we took it to another mechanic
who ID'd the intake manifold as the problem. The original mechanic
denies any responsibility for failing to correctly diagnose and
correct the problem. It is costing us $600 for a new intake manifold,
p&l. We're pretty steamed bout this since as vehicle owners we were
never notified by GM that this could be a problem (they say they are
not legally obligated to notify owners unless it's a recall). Everyone
is passing the buck on this. We would like to start a class-action
suit against Pontiac. I'm sure we're not the only folks thus fleeced
by a defective part. Any suggestions? We'd also like to hold the
original mechanic responsible for his work. Any ideas there? I guess
you can tell we're really po'd.
Donna
"shiden_kai" <violet-lighte...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<MJdJ9.67$JZ.5...@news1.telusplanet.net>...
> manifold.<<snip>>
------ ------
Contact your lawyer, and make sure if he/she does this that he goes all
the way and generalizes, because the engine that is giving trouble is
used in the entire GM line of cars go get 'em all not just Pontiac.
The place to start is NHTSA.org check there first to see if they already
have something going on with regard to your problem. If they do you can
contact GM PR and let them know that you intend to pursue the problem
and maybe they would like to give you a hand wilth your problem...they
don't like NHTSA..thats the government rganization that decides when
they WILL recall vehicles. It will have to be a safety problem if they
do that such as stalling, or catching on fire, or won't stop, etc..
Car Dealerships ( never ) accept responsability for there screw ups and
they charge on an average exactly double the reasonable rate for the
repairs.
I have learned after owning five new cars of various brands that I now
buy at least two yrs. old off warranty and priced accordingly then I
have work done at indepentent garages where the owner/machanic wants the
customer to come back and therefore takes care of any honest mistakes.
Generally if the garage has more than three or four machanics working
and is Franchised, Like Goodyear, Walmart, Jiffylube or Cole Muffler
etc., they will do anything to cover there mistakes and they will be
over priced. If you walk in and there is a counter with a computer and a
Service Writer your going to pay big turn and run for your life.
Good luck.......I'm sure there are some Service Writers and Line
Machanics in here and I don't hold any bad feelings for you guys only
your employers because of how they do business.Everybody feel free to
flame me by email if you like...;-)
shiden_kai
"Donna Chavez"wrote
> We have a 98 Bonneville with the 3.8 L engine and had coolant leaking
> problems for some time - which our so-called mechanic could never
> identify. In August it reached a critical point (coolant in the
> engine) so they replaced the head gasket (cost $2k+). It continued to
> lose coolant. We continued to return it the mechanic who was _never_
> able to identify the cause.
It sounds like you made the right decision to move on to
another mechanic. Was this a dealership that you originally
went too? If so, they should have known about this
problem, it's not a new problem. The plastic upper
plenums have been warping and leaking for quite a
while now. It's just recently that they finally have come
up with a permanent fix (replace the upper "and" the
lower manifold)
> This week we took it to another mechanic
> who ID'd the intake manifold as the problem. The original mechanic
> denies any responsibility for failing to correctly diagnose and
> correct the problem. It is costing us $600 for a new intake manifold,
> p&l.
Hopefully, your new mechanic is installing both the upper (plastic)
and the lower (aluminum) manifolds. The real problem is the
size of the EGR tube in the lower manifold was too large and
the heat generated through the tube would warp/damage the
plastic upper plenum
>We're pretty steamed bout this since as vehicle owners we were
> never notified by GM that this could be a problem (they say they are
> not legally obligated to notify owners unless it's a recall). Everyone
> is passing the buck on this.
There is nothing abnormal about the fact that you weren't
notified. This is not a recall, simply a "service bulletin". Service
bulletins are designed for technicians to help them diagnose
and repair what are referred to as "pattern failures".
> We would like to start a class-action
> suit against Pontiac. I'm sure we're not the only folks thus fleeced
> by a defective part. Any suggestions? We'd also like to hold the
> original mechanic responsible for his work. Any ideas there? I guess
> you can tell we're really po'd.
Good luck, a large percentage of repairs that are done on vehicles
could be said to be caused by "defective parts". Part of owning
a vehicle.
Ian
DeathRat64
"Donna Chavez" <thewri...@wideopenwest.com> wrote in message
news:9b7ffdd3.02121...@posting.google.com...
> We have a 98 Bonneville with the 3.8 L engine and had coolant leaking
> problems for some time - which our so-called mechanic could never
> identify. In August it reached a critical point (coolant in the
> engine) so they replaced the head gasket (cost $2k+). It continued to
> lose coolant. We continued to return it the mechanic who was _never_
> able to identify the cause. This week we took it to another mechanic
> who ID'd the intake manifold as the problem. The original mechanic
> denies any responsibility for failing to correctly diagnose and
> correct the problem. It is costing us $600 for a new intake manifold,
> p&l. We're pretty steamed bout this since as vehicle owners we were
> never notified by GM that this could be a problem (they say they are
> not legally obligated to notify owners unless it's a recall). Everyone
> is passing the buck on this. We would like to start a class-action
> suit against Pontiac. I'm sure we're not the only folks thus fleeced
> by a defective part. Any suggestions? We'd also like to hold the
> original mechanic responsible for his work. Any ideas there? I guess
> you can tell we're really po'd.
>
>
> Donna
Why wasn't the car taken to the GM Dealer to begin with? If it had, you
might have not had this re-occurring problem as they would have found the
true problem the first time! also, depending on your "loyalty" to that
Dealership, they might have fixed it under "goodwill" too! Not saying that
would be the case but, sometimes our own Service dept will do this for a
good loyal (repeat) customer. I don't think you have a chance of suing GM
for this either, unless of course you have been a loyal GM Service Customer!
GM Intake
http://www.geocities.com/gm_intake/index.htm
http://www.gm-v6lemons.com/
http://www.petitiononline.com/GMcnsmrs/petition.html
I too was a victim of this problem 1999 montana with only 41k.
A few of us are really trying to push the issue now that over 1000
signatures in less than a year concerning this problem.
Thanks rich
"DeathRat64" <death...@yahoo.ca> wrote in
news:904K9.153215$ea.29...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca:
DeathRat64
"GM Intake" <gm_inta...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92E3B8CD0E179gm...@204.127.202.16...
> Please visit these websites for information:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/gm_intake/index.htm
> http://www.gm-v6lemons.com/
> http://www.petitiononline.com/GMcnsmrs/petition.html
>
>
> I too was a victim of this problem 1999 montana with only 41k.
> A few of us are really trying to push the issue now that over 1000
> signatures in less than a year concerning this problem.
>
> Thanks rich
Hate to burst your little bubble Rich but, these links are for the 3400 &
not the 3800 as in question here!
GM Intake
problem even though mechanic says its the same gasket type. But I havent
heard problems or had any on that engine for the last 70K. Think that
engine has proven itself over the years as far as Im concerned.
DeathRat64" <death...@yahoo.ca> wrote in news:yjwK9.158784$ea.3105547
@news2.calgary.shaw.ca:
GM Intake
Sorry DeathRat... my error on posting 3.4L info under 3.8L. That posting
is removed. Didn't read the original post.
Edbone
passage is between the two water passages to the throttle body. These
passages will split, allowing coolant to enter the engine on the newer
3800's. The plenum needs to be replaced and the engine oil changed it
this happens. It does create quit a mess in the engine, I have
replaced about 10 of these in the past few years.
Eddie - ASE Master Tech
Bonnevilles Rawk
though I dont know if they would match up. Someones bound to reproduce
those in aluminum someday I would think. I got a 98 bonneville but I
bought it used so I dont know if the intake was replaced already but it
hasnt troubled me yet. 75k miles on it. Keep in mind super chargers
should be rebuilt every 80k miles so thats one of the draw backs to
those. Btw if you want a bonneville and a sports car like ride get the
sse/sle or SSEi. Those have air ride and they corner like a bat out of
hell.
In article <nop3bv88s8legpbfs...@4ax.com>, edbone99
@mindspring.com says...
Nick Trounson
issue 3800s, doesn't appear to be any physical differences in that
department.
Nick.
Fiero3800 ---------------------
220HP supercar for the next generation!
"Bonnevilles Rawk" <no...@m.ers> wrote in message
news:MPG.191bcd9f9...@news-server.woh.rr.com...
matt
many cars that have better cornering. But for a big car, it does do a nice
job on the handling side of things, MUCH better than the base model. It also
helps to get some good quality (semi-)performance tires onto it. The factory
RSAs suck big time. I am still waiting from my RSAs to wear out so that I
have an excuse to replace my tires... the damn things have a good tread life
:(
~matt
99 ssei
"Bonnevilles Rawk" <no...@m.ers> wrote in message
news:MPG.191bcd9f9...@news-server.woh.rr.com...
markwb
for info on the 3800 series II. There are shops that have manufactured
aluminium upper intakes for 3800's. They also recommend replacement of
t-stat with a 180 degree in lieu of the stock 195.
"matt" <bl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vb5k3sl...@corp.supernews.com...