Tire siping effect on handling
GRL
narrow cuts are made in a tire tread to aid in wet and snow traction.
Big positive impact on stopping distances, too.Supposedly improves tire
wear, too, due to facilitating tread cooling.)
I'm about to buy a new set of tires and I'm tempted to have this done
($10 a tire), but am not really sure of the impact it would have on dry
road handling. I can see how breaking up the tire tread blocks with
sipes might have a negative impact on handling in turns, but am unable
to find any comments on the web or news groups.
Somebody
"GRL" <GLitw...@chartermi.net> wrote in message
news:_LvSd.17639$vj5....@fe06.lga...
Tried it. Useless. Improves wet traction by a tiny amount, no effect on
snow and slush. Didn't notice a dry difference except for a bit of
increased road noise.
I think it's a gimmick.
-Russ.
The Malt Hound
"Somebody" <some...@nospam.russdoucet.com> wrote in message
news:MaySd.91866$vO1.5...@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
Of course it is. If tires could be improved (in all the areas the OP
mentioned) by what amounts to a "free" modification such as "siping"
the tread, don't you think the manufacturers would know this and
institute it in their design?
Or do a few shade tree hacks know more about tire design that the
highly paid scientists and engineers at the big tire companies?
Tread design, like almost everything else in life, is a series of
compromises. By cutting the tread into smaller blocks you may improve
one area (ie. wet weather handling) but it will certainly come at the
expense of another (ie. dry handling).
-Fred W
Bradburn Fentress
It depends on the tire. Those of a softer composition seem to benefit most.
Those of hard composition render almost no noticeable difference. For siping
to be effective the tires most be able to deform. Hard compositions are less
likely to comply with that need. Since most tires on the road today are
built for wear, it means that most tires on the road today are lent no
benefit by siping.
I sipe my snows because it makes a difference on ice....I see no advantage
on snow, wet or dry roads. Outside of that I see no great reason for siping
tires. And I am not a believer that siping improve braking or tread wear on
dry conditions.
Tom Korth
"The Malt Hound" <Malt_Hound@*no spam please*yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:MqydnYm4Aug...@adelphia.com...
>
> Of course it is. If tires could be improved (in all the areas the OP
> mentioned) by what amounts to a "free" modification such as "siping" the
> tread, don't you think the manufacturers would know this and institute it
> in their design?
>
> Or do a few shade tree hacks know more about tire design that the highly
> paid scientists and engineers at the big tire companies?
>
have been witholding for 50 years!!
Tom
GRL
Watch the videos and read the Hoosier Tire piece before you dismiss this.
Again, I want 1st hand experience from people who have done it and have
the basis to give a dry handling opinion.
Siping unambiguously DOES work for improving snow and wet braking and
traction. If you look at the best snow tires, like Bridgestone Blizaaks,
they come siped from the factory. My Hankook snow tires did, too. It
works on snow. My question is exclusively about the impact on dry handling.
http://www.sipers.com/sipers/press.asp#
Bradburn Fentress
machines and then sell them to tire stores? That's about as good as
providing a Scientology URL in order to prove that body thetans walk the
earth.
At least two of the 3 respondents to this have talked about personal
experience. I have used siped tires for years and they are decidedly no
better on dry roads than the same tire without sipes. But they are quite
effective on ice, given the correct tire compound to begin with.
As far as your Hoosier Tire cite goes: how exactly does their opinion of the
effectiveness of siping on dirt race tracks......apply to dry pavement?
"GRL" <GLitw...@chartermi.net> wrote in message
news:9kPSd.19945$Rj5....@fe06.lga...
GRL
independent reports on dry road handling. Also, Hoosier is independent of
the machine manufacturer as are a large percentage (maybe most, I'd have to
look again) of the citations on the manufacturer's web site. No axe to
grind.
Further, BMW hypes how good their cars are on their web site. According to
you that is of no value. Self-serving. OK, let's say that they cite
favorable reviews in the motoring press. That's no good either since these
books live and die by ad revenue. They need BMW ads. Who's left? Consumer
Reports. Fine, but they don't test everything.
Two respondents claimed any personal experience. One's opinion I discount
immediately as his claim of no benefit on snow flies in the face of the
third party test reports linked to by the manufacturer's web site, common
sense and the fact the major snow tire manufacturers' sipe their tires from
the factory because it works on snow/ice. So far (limited sample set for
sure) no one says it hurts dry handling and that's my only concern. I will
have it done on the set of all-seasons I'm buying now as I live in the snow
belt and the benefit under snow pack conditions is appreciable. If I get the
better tread wear and wet traction/braking, so much the better. Of course
since I will never have the tires un-siped, I will be in no position to
judge how much better (or worse) the traction.
The fact that the people who build/sell the machines give you links to
separate entities who have tried their technology and report favorably on it
is completely normal and a service to the potential buyer. What do you
propose they do to convince the public of the effectiveness of their
product, anyway?
- GRL
"Bradburn Fentress" <pleased@n't.spam> wrote in message
news:H7QSd.33$na2....@news.uswest.net...
Bradburn Fentress
"GRL" <GLitw...@CHARTERMI.NET> wrote in message
news:969Td.22404$%M1.2...@fe06.lga...
> Never said it did. That's what my question arises from; the lack of
> independent reports on dry road handling.
That should be your first signal.
> Also, Hoosier is independent of the machine manufacturer as are a large
> percentage (maybe most, I'd have to look again) of the citations on the
> manufacturer's web site. No axe to grind.
Everyone has an axe to grind... and most a product to sell. But once again,
your first clue is that you cannot find a single reference to an independent
study that supports all the claims made by siping machine manufacturers.
Hoosier may very well have a siping machine in their shop and provide that
service to others at a cost. I think you can pretty much assume that
everyone on that list of websites has something to do with selling siping
and/or siping machines.
> Further, BMW hypes how good their cars are on their web site. According to
> you that is of no value.
That's right, it is of no value. The greatest mis-direction BMW throws at
the consumer is to call their cars the UDM.
> Self-serving. OK, let's say that they cite favorable reviews in the
> motoring press. That's no good either since these books live and die by ad
> revenue.
Not necessarily because of that, but because of context. Autoweek pretty
much disliked the 545, but if you read the current BMW Magazine (the
companies in-house publication) you be hard pressed to figure that out by
the selective use of Autoweek quotes. For the record I don't think there is
a finer, better driving mid-lux than the 545, but BMW has no shame is being
highly selective in quoting specific phrases, way out of context.
> They need BMW ads. Who's left? Consumer Reports. Fine, but they don't test
> everything.
The customer is left. BMW lets you drive their cars. So do their
competitors.
> Two respondents claimed any personal experience. One's opinion I discount
> immediately as his claim of no benefit on snow flies in the face of the
> third party test reports linked to by the manufacturer's web site, common
> sense and the fact the major snow tire manufacturers' sipe their tires
> from the factory because it works on snow/ice.
Manufacturer sipes and machine sipes are different animals. What tire
companies do is add small grooves in the mold, but these are not, and do not
act like, machine sipes. In fact, if I am not mistaken, most tire companies
decline mileage warranties if you sipe your tires. Now, why would they do
that if sipes actually improved mileage?
> The fact that the people who build/sell the machines give you links to
> separate entities who have tried their technology and report favorably on
> it is completely normal and a service to the potential buyer.
A service to the potential buyer is both sides of the coin. The side of the
coin that favors siping is a service to the companies that sipe and the
companies that sell siping machines.
> What do you propose they do to convince the public of the effectiveness of
> their product, anyway?
I think it has little to do with effectiveness, it has to do with the
illusion of effectiveness.
Forgive me, but I am a skeptic at heart :^) I trust almost no one who
doesn't present good reason why I should.
Bottomline. Tires work best at around 240 F. For dry improvement a siped
tire needs to attain that temperature. On the road our cars almost never
reach a temp anywhere near that, unless we don't watch inflation (200+ temps
are track temps). Consequently, your road car will never attain the temps in
which siping proves advantageous on a dry road.
And personally I can't find any reason whatsoever that sipes would make a
tire better in snow. Of all the claims this seems the most spurious. Like I
said, I have been driving siped tires for some time now, and I see no
advanatge on wet, dry or snow covered roads. the sole benefit I recognize is
on ice.
Somebody
> Two respondents claimed any personal experience. One's opinion I discount
> immediately as his claim of no benefit on snow flies in the face of the
> third party test reports linked to by the manufacturer's web site, common
> sense and the fact the major snow tire manufacturers' sipe their tires
from
> the factory because it works on snow/ice. So far (limited sample set for
> sure) no one says it hurts dry handling and that's my only concern. I will
> have it done on the set of all-seasons I'm buying now as I live in the
snow
> belt and the benefit under snow pack conditions is appreciable. If I get
the
> better tread wear and wet traction/braking, so much the better. Of course
> since I will never have the tires un-siped, I will be in no position to
> judge how much better (or worse) the traction.
Nice of you to discount my experience. I have some siped tires I'll sell
you, *very* cheap, since you're so convinced that I don't know what I'm
talking about after driving on them. Sales people *love* people like you.
You say major snow tire manufacturers sipe their tires. This is correct.
That siping is part of an overall package, in combination with the design of
the tread blocks and rubber compound. I have some snow tires on my car,
heavily siped by the manufacturer, that work extremely well and that I'm
very pleased with. The are made with a rubber compound that is drastically
different than all-season tire rubber, which is drastically different from
performance summer tire rubber. However you are talking about aftermarket
siping of all-season tires. I took my all-season tires at the beginning of
winter to a shop, and had them siped on their machine. Then I drove them
out, and tested the same wet pavement, slushy parking lot, and snowy parking
lot that I had tried on the way to the shop. No difference in snow, no
difference in slush, small difference in wet, more road noise. My
experience over the next few weeks of winter was exactly as bad as the
previous one, and the week just prior to that, before the tires were siped.
You asked for experiences and feedback on siping, I gave it to you. You
choose to discount me and believe manufacturer's claims. Why did you ask
then? You apparently already know eveyrthing you need to. Go get your
tires siped, right now. Run. Have fun!
-Russ.
PS if siping them before you put them on eliminates the opportunity to see
what they're like before siping -- do it later! Then you'll know. I hear
that ketchup is good with crow.
PPS there was a very slight detriment to dry handling but I didn't bother
running those tires very long when the weather got bettter, as I had real
summer rubber lined up by then and was more than glad to get those useless
all-season tires off my bimmer.
ppp-man
about.
Personally, if I want my tires siped, I buy them as designed that way.
"GRL" <GLitw...@CHARTERMI.NET> wrote in message
news:969Td.22404$%M1.2...@fe06.lga...
GRL
living in the snow below, like me. There are plenty of citations on the
manufacturer's web site attesting to that. I could find no information, one
way or the other, about the effect on dry road lateral acceleration
(handling). That's my sole concern about doing this. Not trying to
argumentative, trying to learn something from someone with 1st hand
experience.
- GRL
"ppp-man" <do...@bother.me> wrote in message
news:lgyTd.4112$_G.1630@clgrps12...
Somebody
> You are right that I would like to do this as it makes sense for someone
> living in the snow below, like me. There are plenty of citations on the
> manufacturer's web site attesting to that. I could find no information,
one
> way or the other, about the effect on dry road lateral acceleration
> (handling). That's my sole concern about doing this. Not trying to
> argumentative, trying to learn something from someone with 1st hand
> experience.
Regardigng your last sentance -- head over to webster.com and look up irony.
Anyway if you don't think that siping hurts dry road performance, have a
look at any high performance tire. Do you see any sipes? Nope. Blocks of
solid rubber.
Look at an all season tire. Some sipes. A compromise.
Now look at a snow tire. Lots of sipes. Hmmm.
Tryint to take an all season compound and make it into a snow tire won't
work. No performance tires have sipes. Hmm..
-Russ.