Does the world hate Jesus or Christians?
Phoenix
don't read on...
First off, Since I am cross posting to alt.atheism for the sake of
this debate, I'll apologize in advance for any offense by my post.
Christians seem to be under the disillusion that the world hates Jesus
who said:
Mat 5:44 “But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those cursing
you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those insulting you and
persecuting you,
I find this hard to believe that atheist hate Jesus. They may not
believe in him but for that reason, it would be illogical to hate
somebody that never existed by their own claimed belief. Anyways, I
was having this discussion with somebody and they quoted to me:
Joh 15:19 “If you were of the world, the world would love its own. But
because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world,
for that reason the world hates you.
The idea is that the world hates Christians because of Jesus and I
don't find that a logical idea either. So... I'd like to put the
question out there... What is it that you hate?
Now what I believe atheist hate is first off, the lack of respect from
Christians as in the example of Sound of Trumpet and his cross posting
to alt.atheism. Even Mr. Chang shows restraint and doesn't cross post
until after SoT starts his cross posting...
What I've seen is that if we stay in our forums, many of the atheist
stay out of the Christian forums but of course none of us can speak
for all of us... (sigh)
I also tend to think that what atheist hate is the self-righteous,
self-serving hypocritacal attitudes of a lot of Christians... they
profess to believe in scriptures that tell them to be perfect and yet
we see so many horrible examples examples by Christians.
Our actions, speech and general attitude is one of arrogance and
doesn't reflect the reality of our actions. Our "good works" are
tokens at best and we claim to believe the bible but toss out anything
that we feel doesn't apply. The Ten Commandments go out the door and
atheist see us all as pretentious.
We claim to believe in Jesus and act like the devil himself...
Jas 1:22 And become doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving
yourselves.
So world.. give me proof I'm wrong.
What do you hate:
A> Jesus, Christians and the whole lot
B> Jesus
C> Christians
D> People that are hypocrites.
Thanks in advance,
Snow
We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as
fools.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
panam...@hotmail.com
> If your offended by a few scriptures for the sake of secular debate,
> don't read on...
Your "scriptures" do not offend me. In fact, the contradictions found
within them very often show the proof of their mythological nature.
> First off, Since I am cross posting to alt.atheism for the sake of
> this debate, I'll apologize in advance for any offense by my post.
> Christians seem to be under the disillusion that the world hates Jesus
> who said:
>
> Mat 5:44 “But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those cursing
> you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those insulting you and
> persecuting you,
The same comic book says "Jesus" said:
Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send
peace, but a sword.
Luke 12:51
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but
rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house
divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be
divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother
against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother
in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against
her mother in law.
Luke 22:36
He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
> I find this hard to believe that atheist hate Jesus.
Of course, since it is doubtful that the "Jesus" described in
Christian mythology is in any way a historical figure.
http://tinyurl.com/2kg43d
http://tinyurl.com/3ay5hm
http://tinyurl.com/2wskdr
http://mama.indstate.edu/users/nizrael/jesusrefutation.html
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/christian.htm
http://www.pocm.info/
http://www.jesuspuzzle.com/
One might as well "hate" Zeus, Thor, or leprechauns.
> They may not
> believe in him but for that reason, it would be illogical to hate
> somebody that never existed by their own claimed belief.
Agreed. You misunderstand the anger. I do not hate your mythology...I
hate what people who share your mythology are doing to my society.
> Anyways, I
> was having this discussion with somebody and they quoted to me:
>
> Joh 15:19 “If you were of the world, the world would love its own. But
> because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world,
> for that reason the world hates you.
>
> The idea is that the world hates Christians because of Jesus and I
> don't find that a logical idea either. So... I'd like to put the
> question out there... What is it that you hate?
The behavior of Christians that cannot keep their delusions to
themselves.
> Now what I believe atheist hate is first off, the lack of respect from
> Christians as in the example of Sound of Trumpet and his cross posting
> to alt.atheism. Even Mr. Chang shows restraint and doesn't cross post
> until after SoT starts his cross posting...
But such behavior is seen as *required* by the tenants of your
mythology. Evangelism is a common theme in the "holy" texts of
Christian mythology. Minding their own fucking buisiness is not an
option for your fundamentalist "brethren".
> What I've seen is that if we stay in our forums, many of the atheist
> stay out of the Christian forums but of course none of us can speak
> for all of us... (sigh)
>
> I also tend to think that what atheist hate is the self-righteous,
> self-serving hypocritacal attitudes of a lot of Christians... they
> profess to believe in scriptures that tell them to be perfect and yet
> we see so many horrible examples examples by Christians.
That's the `magic' of your scriptures. They are so vague and
contradictory that anyone can define your gods' desires in any way
they choose.
> Our actions, speech and general attitude is one of arrogance and
> doesn't reflect the reality of our actions.
Your actions are the reason for my discomfort. Since your religion has
been proven to be just another mythology, what you believe is
unimportant. The problem is that people who share your mythology now
have power in my government, and resist most Americans' hope that the
US will join western Europe and Japan as a modern society.
> Our "good works" are
> tokens at best and we claim to believe the bible but toss out anything
> that we feel doesn't apply. The Ten Commandments go out the door and
> atheist see us all as pretentious.
>
> We claim to believe in Jesus and act like the devil himself...
And to someone who doesn't share a belief in your mythology, you sound
ridiculous when you say that. You're dithering over whether you behave
like Batman or The Joker to people who realize it's just a stinking
comic book.
> Jas 1:22 And become doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving
> yourselves.
>
> So world.. give me proof I'm wrong.
Go preach to your "bretheren". This topic would be a non-starter if
they could keep their idiotic slavery to their mythology a private
matter.
snip
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015, Member Knights of BAAWA!
EAC Martian Commander
Plonked by Kadaitcha Man Sept 06
"..the prayer cloth of one aeon is the doormat of the next."
-Mark Twain
Religious societies are *less* moral than secular ones:
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
Phoenix
> > So world.. give me proof I'm wrong.
>
> Go preach to your "bretheren". This topic would be a non-starter if
> they could keep their idiotic slavery to their mythology a private
> matter.
Ironically, the bible only tells Christians to be prepared to give a
"witness" and really says nothing about going around chasing people
down. To the contrary were suppose to "shake the dust off" and leave
people in alone if they don't except our beliefs and be an example by
our actions and lifestyles and not our words.
But... given the hostile tone of your post in general, I'd have to say
that's one for vote for (a). Hate the lot of us, Jesus, Christians
and all our "mythology".
Thanks for taking the time to give an honest response and what I'm
hoping is that Christians will take this as a chance to learn to
communicate with one another.
Brennan Manning said, " The Greatest single cause of Atheism in the
world today are Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and
walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an
unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."
I doubt that people realize or consider the ramifications of their
actions. More often then not people spend the time they have looking
at everybody else and being the judge of them so that they don't have
to face the problems in their own lives.
So far it's one for me being wrong!
Shalom,
Phoenix
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are
so unlike your Christ.
Mohandas Gandhi
Pink Freud
"Phoenix" <phoenix...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:e4de9cf8-93ab-43bd...@q24g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
E> Christianity and all other religions. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Phoenix
> "Phoenix" <phoenixhasri...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
Forgot that one... :) Thanks for playing... thats two votes for the
bible being right and none for me.
Shalom,
Snow
Be the change that you want to see in the world.
Mohandas Gandhi
Pink Freud
"Phoenix" <phoenix...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:dc1aaba5-6b53-49de...@w34g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
Respectfully disagree.
I hate *religion*, not religious people.
Rimm...@googlemail.com
I also find it strange that people seem unable to make a distinction
between the original teaching of Christ and the corrupted mess that
the church has made of it. People seem to have forgotten that Christ
strongly condemned the religious establishment and they fail to see
that the church is a state-sanctioned institute. It always has been
the true church who was severely persecuted by the state. Later on,
the worldly powers decided it best to merge church and state (make it
the official state religion) to corrupt it from within.
Here are some things he said about hypocritical false Christians who
claim to follow his teaching, but whose actions are the opposite:
Matthew 7:16-23, By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people
pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every
good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good
tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into
the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. "Not everyone
who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but
only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say
to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and
in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will
tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
And here what he had to say about those who have held the truth
hostage with their monopolistic claim to be the only ones that have
true knowledge, understanding and salvation (many religious
officials).
Matthew 23:15, Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you
hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and
when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you
are.
Matthew 23:25-28, Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you
hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they
are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the
inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are
like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the
inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. In the
same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the
inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
Thomas 16, Jesus said this: "Woe <be> to them, the Pharisees, for they
are like a dog lying in the manger of some oxen. For he eats not,
neither will he permit the oxen to eat."
Phoenix
> >> E> Christianity and all other religions. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> > Forgot that one... :) Thanks for playing... thats two votes for the
> > bible being right and none for me.
>
> Respectfully disagree.
>
> I hate *religion*, not religious people.
O.K. I'm not saying this is right because I disagree with the
practice.. but the test your resolve here...
Seventh Day Adventist come knocking on your door and they ask, "Do you
know Jesus?" "We'd like to give you a copy of the Watch Tower"?
How do you feel about that?
Shalom,
Snow
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must
be unaffected by outside circumstances.
Mohandas Gandhi
Winsome
>
> Brennan Manning said, " The Greatest single cause of Atheism in the
> world today are Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and
> walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an
> unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."
What rot! Another pathetic, manipulative attempt to
(i) make the congregation feel bad by blaming them for their behaviour, and
then
(ii) make the congregation feel good again by making it seem that Christians
are so incredibly significant outside their cult that something they do can
'make people atheist'.
Ridiculous!
The truth is simply this: The 'greatest single cause of Atheism in the world
today' is the utterly basic fact that *you haven't got a god to show us*.
W.
Phoenix
> >> E> Christianity and all other religions. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> >
> > Forgot that one... :) Thanks for playing... thats two votes for the
> > bible being right and none for me.
> >
>
> Respectfully disagree.
>
> I hate *religion*, not religious people.
Actually Pink.. That wasn't really a fair test because honestly, I
even hate those people:)) I think they drive more people away from
religion then they attracted and if they do get some "followers" it's
usually just some poor lonely sod desperate for any attention and
really has nothing to do with faith.
So.. let's put it like this.. do you have any close friends that are
religious in nature that you would sit around and discuss things
with...
That should be a more fair assessment. :0
Shalom,
Snow
Gentleness, self-sacrifice and generosity are the exclusive possession
of no one race or religion.
Mohandas Gandhi
Phoenix
> Ridiculous!
>
> The truth is simply this: The 'greatest single cause of Atheism in the world
> today' is the utterly basic fact that *you haven't got a god to show us*.
>
> W.
Fair comment. How do you feel about people of faith?
Shalom,
Snow
Healthy discontent is the prelude to progress.
Mohandas Gandhi
Pink Freud
"Phoenix" <phoenix...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:447cf8b9-4018-4187...@1g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> Pink Freud wrote:
>
>> >> E> Christianity and all other religions. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>> >
>> > Forgot that one... :) Thanks for playing... thats two votes for the
>> > bible being right and none for me.
>> >
>>
>> Respectfully disagree.
>>
>> I hate *religion*, not religious people.
>
> Actually Pink.. That wasn't really a fair test because honestly, I
> even hate those people:)) I think they drive more people away from
> religion then they attracted and if they do get some "followers" it's
> usually just some poor lonely sod desperate for any attention and
> really has nothing to do with faith.
>
> So.. let's put it like this.. do you have any close friends that are
> religious in nature that you would sit around and discuss things
> with...
>
> That should be a more fair assessment. :0
>
I don't have many religious friends. Read into that what you will :)
I have a close friend who would describe herself as a Roman Catholic.
However she doesn't go to church weekly, openly uses contraceptives etc etc.
I'd argue that she isn't actually Roman Catholic at all. She is kind of a
hypocrite... but this is ok because if she wasn't a hypocrite about it we
probably wouldn't get along as well as we do by any means.
I wouldn't discuss religion with her in any detail as I would likely offend
her... as I hate the Roman Catholic religion.
By the way, some hypocrisy is a good thing in the religious.
Christians should, by rights, be "fishers of men" - ie it is their duty to
convert others to Christianity. I like them better if they don't, however.
Muslims should, by rights, kill any apostate they find. I like them better
if they don't.
Heck, if no religious folk were hypocrites we'd live in a nightmare of a
world, if you think about it.
BTW don't get me wrong... some religious people are hateful, and deserve
hate and condemnation etc. But some are really nice people.
Think of it this way... I hate chain letters... they are annoying, take up
bandwidth, spread through superstition, threaten people, make false promises
etc.
But often my friends at work will forward them to me. I don't immediately
hate those people. I'll likely speak to them and advise how ridiculous it is
to propogate such nonsense.
Religion shares nearly all the attributes of a chain letter, but it holds a
priveliged ground when it comes to criticism, and it shouldn't.
Pink Freud
"Phoenix" <phoenix...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:c001c7f0-9258-458e...@j33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
> On May 15, 8:51 pm, "Pink Freud" <somewh...@here.com> wrote:
>
>> >> E> Christianity and all other religions. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>>
>> > Forgot that one... :) Thanks for playing... thats two votes for the
>> > bible being right and none for me.
>>
>> Respectfully disagree.
>>
>> I hate *religion*, not religious people.
>
> O.K. I'm not saying this is right because I disagree with the
> practice.. but the test your resolve here...
>
> Seventh Day Adventist come knocking on your door and they ask, "Do you
> know Jesus?" "We'd like to give you a copy of the Watch Tower"?
>
> How do you feel about that?
I would tell them they were wasting their time, and politely send them on
their way. If they didn't take no for an answer, I would shut the door in
their faces.
I actually pity people like that.
John Baker
<phoenix...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>If your offended by a few scriptures for the sake of secular debate,
>don't read on...
>
>First off, Since I am cross posting to alt.atheism for the sake of
>this debate, I'll apologize in advance for any offense by my post.
>Christians seem to be under the disillusion that the world hates Jesus
>who said:
>
>Mat 5:44 釘ut I say to you, love your enemies, bless those cursing
>you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those insulting you and
>persecuting you,
>
>I find this hard to believe that atheist hate Jesus. They may not
>believe in him but for that reason, it would be illogical to hate
>somebody that never existed by their own claimed belief. Anyways, I
>was having this discussion with somebody and they quoted to me:
>
>Joh 15:19 的f you were of the world, the world would love its own. But
I don't hate Christians - but *some* of them really piss me off.
Don Martin
fool hates that which does not exist.
Christians patently exist. Those who appear on one's doorstep tend to
be boors behaving in loathesome ways: they are appropriate objects of
hatred in one sense but not in all. As Thomas Heggen pointed out in
_Mr. Roberts_, "in hatred there is something of fear and respect," and
I neither fear nor respect the pathetic loons out trolling for Jesus
either in my neighborhood nor on Usenet. I do not therefore hate them.
I find them annoying and disgusting, but not worthy of hatred.
One does not hate a dog turd--one merely avoids stepping in it.
dead.k...@googlemail.com
> "Phoenix" <phoenixhasri...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
i usually take it off them(every flippin saturday morning about 10:30
btw) then smiling politely, close the door. If ive got the time or
mental energy i'l have a quick read 'cos its usually worth a laugh,
otherwise its straight in the recycling.
it wastes their money, you guarantee it gets recycled and there is no
chance of this particular copy ending up in the hands of a person who
is going through a rough patch and of them being influenced by it.
Phoenix
> "Phoenix" <phoenixhasri...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
Me too... You've restored my hope in Atheist. :) It's good to see
somebody able to have a normal conversation. I'd have to say your a
fairly normal person with good cognitive skills.
I'll have to score you one for my end of the debate.
Thanks for sharing your point of view. I wish it were possible that
more people were able to have discussions and not feel the need to
attack beliefs or assert domination over the other persons point of
view.
With deep respect,
Snow
To be good is noble; but to show others how to be good is nobler and
no trouble.
Mark Twain
Hatter
belief, C not as a whole...certainly some by their actions and yet I
find some quite admirable, and D aren't we all hypocrites at some
point or another? The problem with holding hypocracy as the highest
moral trangression, then only people who have no values can be held as
hypocracy free. It is, as all things in life, a matter of degree. I've
stated many times I don't like people who use hyberbole for attention
as they distort language, yet I've done it on occasion. Campared to
someone like Ted Haggard, what I did is pretty small potatoes.
I don't hate the mythology itself, nor can I hate the mass of
Christians that go through the motions(though I do hold them in low
regard) I hate people who go out of their way to reinforce the asolute
validity of what should be just another book of ancient lore that
should be on the bookshelf next to Beowulf, The Illiad, The Odyessy,
Gilgamesh, and so forth. A poetic book with scraps of wisdom mixed in
with the superstitions of a more primitive, nay savage, time. No more,
no less.
Maybe then humanity can begin to grow up and adress real problems with
real solutions instead of hoping for the impossible sky deity, a
celestial Santa, to take care of everything in a never-never land
called heaven.
Hatter
Phoenix
<dead.kenne...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > Seventh Day Adventist come knocking on your door and they ask, "Do you
> > > know Jesus?" "We'd like to give you a copy of the Watch Tower"?
>
> > > How do you feel about that?
> i usually take it off them(every flippin saturday morning about 10:30
> btw) then smiling politely, close the door. If ive got the time or
> mental energy i'l have a quick read 'cos its usually worth a laugh,
> otherwise its straight in the recycling.
>
> it wastes their money, you guarantee it gets recycled and there is no
> chance of this particular copy ending up in the hands of a person who
> is going through a rough patch and of them being influenced by it.
To be honest with you, I'm Christian and I do the same thing. About
the only difference is that I tend to enjoy engaging them in a
discussion about religion and about 5 minutes after I pull out one of
my bibles and start pointing out the mistakes in there belief, they go
running down the street.
I haven't seen one at my house in over a year now since that last time
I did that and I think they "black listed" my address.
Out of respect, I won't go into how I did it but it was completely
from scriptures. If your curious.. I'll tell:)
Thanks for you input Mr. Dead Kennedy.. did you like the punk rock
band?
Shalom,
Snow
A man is never more truthful than when he acknowledges himself a liar.
Mark Twain
Phoenix
> One does not hate a dog turd--one merely avoids stepping in it.
At least you have a good sense of humor about it... but I don't think
anybody likes a big radiant pile of shit stinking up the house
either... I'd have to chalk that one up to hating Christians.
Thanks for your comments, I'm learning from all your comments and it's
appreciated.
Shalom,
Snow
Beware of all enterprises that require a new set of clothes.
Henry David Thoreau
V
hatred aside.
I was discussing 'spiritual aspects of living' on various online
forums. One group was a dedicated atheists discussion list with most
members only offering bitter personal attacks instead of adding
anything substantive to the discussion.
But to be fair to these atheists, I've known many a religious fellow
that are just as bitter, if not more so, than atheists I meet. So just
being 'religious' is not a guarantee of being at peace.
Each man made religion contains perfection's as well as imperfections.
It is up to the practitioner or end user to use the tools in the right
way.
The problem is not the wisdom that is defective.
The problem lies with religious practitioners who are defective in
their practice of this wisdom.
The wisdom works - we don't work the wisdom.
Many times we are too busy for peace. As one atheist list member
wrote, 'It took awhile - far too long, really - but I've finally found
that one can find peace by simply being undisturbed."
Yes, peace is our birthright, if we are not destroying it by our own
actions. In order to slow down enough to be able to use peace as a
tool I needed to apply simplicity and renunciation to my life.
I am not an acetic or total renunciate by any means, but I did have to
let go of many peace destroying habits before making room for inner
peace to enter my life. As we get rid of one thing, it make room for
another thing to enter.
The online discussions based in bitterness brought up the question of
"what guiding light do atheists use to be at peace?"
Not much was offered in reply to my question. I got a few answers here
or there.
It seems whenever the discussion turns to 'inner peace' many of the
people I talk with are silent, this even goes for 'pious' Catholic
priests.
But, one fellow on the forum mentioned 'truth and philosophy,' as his
tools - both of these being good answers for peace generation with
proper application. Philosophy plays a big role in my life as well for
providing tools to live at peace.
I also supplement my spiritual path from many other sources as I will
go into below. I am only interested in practical application of
philosophy though and not bickering and arguing over the unanswerable.
So, I prefer truth based discussions over ego based discussions where
the truth gets overshadowed by rhetoric. As someone once wrote ... "if
you don't know the answer then just say so."
see:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=504.0
I was at a philosophy symposium last year and talked with a professor
about a teaching / mentor relationship he had with Ayn Rand.
He went on to say how after a year they broke up the mentor
relationship on a sour note. After I questioned the professor about
Rand's personal life as well as her state of inner peace and
happiness, I could see that with all her talents of 'smarts' she was
bankrupt when the subject turned to peace smarts, contentment and
happiness.
She was ego based and not practice based when it came to peace
generation.
Furthermore, she not only destroyed her peace, but from the
information that came out of our discussion, the then student's peace
was disturbed at the time and it still sounded disturbed decades later
as a distinguished professor and author. Academic smarts are not the
same as peace smarts.
The branch of philosophy that deals with the study of ethics and
virtue has also helped me along in life.
What is virtue and ethics?
Some authorities define it as 'excellence of the soul' or moral
excellence. (Although the Greeks thought of 'soul and form' in
different terms than say Christians think of soul. For example, the
soul of an eye would be its ability to 'see' and whether this ability
was good or bad would decide whether the soul of an eye had 'virtue'
or excellence.)
The concept for understanding virtue can be told in a story of the
'Ring of Gyges' or 'Myth of Gyges'. This story was taken from Plato's
Republic and recounts how the shepherd Gyges finds a ring on a hand
extending from a crack in the earth and removes the ring from the hand
and puts it on. Gyges discovers the magic ring gives him powers to be
invisible at will and then uses these powers to kill the king, rape
the queen and take over the kingdom. As James Allen tells us in "As A
Man Thinketh" - "Circumstances does not make the man - it reveals him
to himself"
What is virtuous behavior in a flourishing human being?
In readily understandable terms we can help define virtue for us from
this story of Gyges and by asking ourselves the question, "What would
we do if no one was looking or we knew we would not get caught?"
No heaven, no hell, no God, no karma, no police, nothing but us and
our virtue?
Would our actions promote our inner peace as well as the inner peace
of others or would our actions destroy our peace and the peace of
others?
Virtue is not learned from the classroom, other than memorizing
definitions. Remember, a fool can only say what he knows ~ it takes a
wise man to know what he says.
How do we become a success at living a virtuous life and really know
what we say?
As a lecture on Aristotle mentioned: "We are what we repeatedly do.
Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." We develop it by
practice. Practicing 'excellence of the human soul' is how.
Beside the philosophical studies of ethics and virtue, a Buddhist or
Taoist practice is another good peace developer for anyone to adopt
whether atheist, agnostic or believer.
Buddhists are generally not required to believe or not believe in God,
so anyone can make use of this philosophy irrespective of their
religious beliefs or lack thereof.
But be careful with your Buddhist studies if you decide to head in
this direction. For Buddhism is riddled with useless ego based dogma.
If you can sift through the useless as a freethinker and find the gems
you will do well.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=9.0
Personally, I've settled on the essence of Buddhism and that is what I
work on and find much peace with this type of simplified Buddhist
practice.
"The Three Pillars of Buddhism"
1- Practicing mindfulness and meditation to develop peace and self
awareness of our own true nature.
2- Accepting the liberating wisdom of impermanence and practicing non-
clinging and a lessening of craving and desires.
3- The development of compassion for others.
In addition to the three pillars, we can use the eightfold path to
guide us. Within the three pillars and the eightfold path are a
lifetime of practice.
No need to get lost in endless debate and spend your precious time in
idle talk that only serves to massage one's ego. Plenty of work to do
right here, right now, unless we prefer to keep our minds distracted
through our perpetual complexities we are so addicted to.
We do need to give some thought of the 'right' way to live as the
eightfold path tells us, so we should never try and be devoid of
thought in our lives, but instead look for a balance and let thought
serve us for once.
"The Eightfold Path"
1. Right View
2. Right Intention
3. Right Speech
4. Right Action
5. Right Livelihood
6. Right Effort
7. Right Mindfulness
8. Right Concentration
How can you differentiate right from wrong?
By peace.
You learn what destroys your peace and the peace of others as well as
what promotes you inner peace and the inner peace of others. Do you
need a teacher for that? Or the Pope to tell you? Or just listen to
peace as the best teacher?
The Five precepts are the 'commandments' more or less for Buddhists.
Although you are not commanded to do a thing. If you wish to live at
peace, then proceed the best you can - but it is your choice.
"The Five Precepts"
1. Refrain from Killing
2. Refrain from Stealing
3. Refrain from Sexual Misconduct
4. Refrain from False Speech
5. Refrain from the Use of Intoxicants
Once I am at peace, I can share with others about finding peace for
themselves, which is the secondary reason I practice.
I have no interest in practicing Buddhism for extinguishing
reincarnation. These "fear based" reasons for being a Buddhist are
not authentic or natural - the persons actions are based on fear or
negative consequences otherwise they would not do them. My actions are
based on inner peace and if I stray - there goes my peace - it is my
choice.
Remember what I wrote about above with the myth of Gyges?
Take away the fear of pain of karma or hell and you have a different
person?
A truly virtuous life remains the same irrespective of such fears and
is not based on them.
I enjoy life and realize that due to natural law, suffering comes
about as part of the process and I accept it as a fair trade off for
the privilege of living.
Buddhism helps makes this trade off of life and pain more in my favor
by lending me support to live a life at peace. I do not practice
Buddhism to earn merit for the next life - I practice Buddhism for my
own peace generation in THIS LIFE.
You see, once a religion requires faith, this is where I leave off
with it's teaching.
I only use the tools that can be applied in this life that can be
tested to yield peace.
Otherwise, if I succumb to fantasy notions I start heading towards the
road of delusion.
So whether it is heaven, hell, reincarnation or chanting 'Namo
Amitabha Buddha' for the Buddha to carry me off to the pure
land...none of this can be proven as fact and is just based on ego
based man and their fantasies.
Still, I am not shy about benefiting from any religious path that
offers tools for me to live at peace.
I take from ALL spiritual paths without prejudice, my only requirement
is that the religious or spiritual tool be one that offers peace. Any
tool always has to pass the peace test, this way it speaks of a
'higher authority' than just man made dogma - it speaks of universal
truth.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=470.0
But, this all has to be done in balance.
For there are many true things that are good - but done in excess they
become bad.
For, even though air and water give us life, they will also give us
death when in excess.
So always seek balance.
How flexible can you be when it comes to finding tools for living at
peace within the worlds spiritual paths?
Even though I am not a Muslim, I borrowed from the Muslim's prayer
schedule to use myself. The Muslims have a practice of praying five
times a day to Allah. For those that do not know, Allah is the same
God of the Jews and of the Old Testament that the Christians worship.
The Muslims pray at sun up, when the sun is at its zenith at noon,
when the sun is part way down in the afternoon, when the sun sets and
when they go to bed. Even though I am not a Muslim, I borrowed from
the Muslim's prayer schedule to use as a reminder to be mindful of
"gratitude" in my life.
If you do not want to develop a practice of gratitude, then what about
using it as a reminder 5 times a day to relax your breath, practice
mindfulness and bring your thoughts back to the present moment? When
you have come to a point of gratitude for being able to open your eyes
in the morning and being able to take a breath of air everything else
is just gravy so to speak. Gratitude plays an important part with
finding inner peace, just as being mindful of the present moment and
being aware of anything that causes this mindfulness to wander.
If I could define the basis of my spiritual practice it would be that
of peace and practicality. Inner peace is the foundation of it all,
for we cannot have world peace without first being at peace within. I
used to be a Catholic for many years of my life as well as a
freethinking Buddhist before becoming an agnostic freethinker.
See::
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=318.0
A few years ago a lady moderator on a Christian forum banned me for
claiming that God is peace, telling me "you don't know who God is."
Funny thing about the Christians. I was a Christian as well as a
freethinking Buddhist in my earlier life and 100% of the Christian
forums have banned me, and 95% of the Buddhist forums have also banned
me.
This says something about the Christians and Buddhists and whether
they practice what they preach? The Christians chanting the Golden
rule of Reciprocity and Charity and Humility? and the Buddhists
preaching Compassion, Do No Harm and Egoless Non-Self?
Why am I banned so much?
Is it for getting in fights or flame wars?
No...I get banned for writing about truth.
When someone disagrees with you, apply the law of opposites to get at
the truth.
This removes the personalities and focusses on the principles and
helps you see the entire picture.
If God is not peace, then God must be the opposite of peace...turmoil
and unrest.
I prefer to believe God is peace and God is the authority on the
subject of peace.
The difference between an authority and an authoritarian is this. An
authority speaks from a place of truth and such speaks as an
authority. Whereas an authoritarian rules by fear and not by truth.
For the truth stands on it own and the authoritarian stands on their
ego.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=343.0
The Buddhists have a set of rules they use to determine what are
definitive truths and what are not. This can also be applied to such
questions.
1) Do not rely on just the person but rely on the doctrine.
2) With respect to the doctrine, do not rely on just the words, but
rely on the meaning.
3) With respect to the meaning, do not rely on just meaning requiring
interpretation, but rely on meaning that is definitive.
4) With respect to definitive meaning, do not rely on just dualistic
understanding but rely on the wisdom of the direct perception of the
truth.
Bringing this worship business back to the topic of religion, do we
worship a higher power out of fear for if we do not worship this
higher power we will be killed?
Sounds like the aliens in an old "Superman" movies that came to earth
to tell us to bow down to them or else?
If there was a God or a higher power does this entity need us to 'bow
down' to a 'big ego' or does God need us to 'act right' to our
companions as well as to act right to ourselves?
Bowing down produces no peace, whether in the person that demands it
due to an over bloated ego, nor does it foster peace within the person
forced to worship against their will. But this is how man made
religions work - they are run by fear, greed and ego.
I prefer to be truth and peace based. Many think God is like 'Santa
Claus' and must come through with their demands, just as we did as
greedy children making up a long, impossible list for Santa to fill.
This smacks of the ego based practitioner.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=133.0
The ego based person prays thinking they know better than God does.
The truly spiritual based person prays for God's will and not their
own, for if they truly knew better than God...the practitioner would
be the God.
Nothing wrong with asking if one is a believer, but always end such
requests humbly with accepting Gods or a higher powers will with
gratitude.
Can you imagine if everyone's prayers were answered according to our
self centered and conflicting demands? The world would be in real
turmoil then.
No, I prefer to make the God of Peace and the God of Nature two Gods I
serve and as such my actions can be evaluated in simple terms of
bringing me in harmony with these two Gods or not.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=342.0
Many times we violate the three branches of laws that govern us and
constantly ask God or a higher power to give us 'hall passes' to avoid
the consequences of our actions. Such prayer is again ego based,
thinking we should have preference over the rest of the world for
wishing to be exempt from our actions
We are all governed by these three areas of laws.
1 - Natural Law
2 - Divine or spiritual law (if you believe in spiritual matters)
3 - Manmade laws
I find that sometime spiritual practitioners neglect the natural laws
that govern our bodies and suffer in this area from lack of living a
balanced life.
Some of us forget we are spiritual beings residing in physical bodies
living in physical world and governed my both spiritual and physical
or natural laws in addition to man made laws.
We need some effort with spiritual work and some effort in physical
work for a good balance. Some of us think we can defy man made laws as
well as divine or spiritual laws.
But no matter how defiant the person is...we all answer to natural
law. We all bow to nature in the end.
Anyway, you are free to think or not think of God or higher power as
you see fit. I am only a 'minor authority' on peace and do not wish to
be an authoritarian, so I allow freedom for all to think as they wish
and only ask the same courtesy be extended to me - reciprocity.
Psychologist William James once said, "A great many people believe
they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
This applies to atheists as well as the religious or the pious. To
avoid prejudice, we have to be careful of 'black or white' absolutes
if you claim to truth based and not ego based in your beliefs. I work
to keep an open mind for all religions as well as those persons that
believe nothing.
When I discussed Christian principles one time an Atheist piped up to
say "the Christians have no principles," and "Jesus was a fabled
creation of the Christians."
When we sperate the personalities from the principles it makes looking
at things much easier. When I am referring to Christian principles I
speak of such things as charity, works of mercy and the golden rule,
where the emphasis is on principles and not on the personalities of
the church.
For even if Jesus was just created as a fable, these Christian
principles are universal truths in their own right if one desires to
live a life at peace and promote the inner peace of others in this
world. Is it any different from the Taoists following the legend of
Lao Tzu? Always look at what is said and not at who says what this
divorces the personalties and prejudice from your search for truth.
"The Corporal Works of Mercy"
To feed the hungry
To give drink to the thirsty
To clothe the naked
To harbour the harbourless
To visit the sick
To ransom the captive
To bury the dead
"The Spiritual Works of Mercy"
To instruct the ignorant
To counsel the doubtful
To admonish sinners
To bear wrongs patiently
To forgive offenses willingly
To comfort the afflicted
To pray for the living and the dead
You see, by applying the rule of reciprocity or rule of opposites we
can see if we were in these positions of the needy mentioned above, we
would like such charity bestowed on us for the most part. What about
our children, parents and loved ones? Wouldn't we wish the same for
them? We have no loved ones? What about our neighbors?
The Christian ethic says to treat one another as we would wish to be
treated. As we give ~ so we receive. Even if an atheist, as we give
peace - we receive inner peace as many of the tools I mentioned above
do not require belief in God, they only requirement is a desire to be
at peace and to bring peace to others. This is the Christian doctrine
in a nutshell, when we put principles before personalities.
As you instill seeds of peace within others you plant the same seeds
and water these seeds within you as well. As James Allen wrote in "As
a man Thinketh" ~ To think well of all, to be cheerful with all, to
patiently learn to find the good in all - such unselfish thoughts are
the very portals of heaven; and to dwell day by day in thoughts of
peace toward every creature will bring abounding peace to their
possessor."
This is universal truth that transcends man made religions.
Remember, we do not have to do it perfectly. Just look for direction
and forget perfection - for perfection or range is of the ego and form
is of the soul.
There are many tools for peace within the worlds spiritual paths, no
one said these paths are perfect, in fact, it was once said that
walking the spiritual path is akin to walking on a razors edge. But if
we bother to be honest, non prejudicial and to look, we can find tools
that can help us be at peace whether atheist, agnostic or believer.
In the Gnostic gospel of Thomas, it was reported:
"The disciples asked Jesus, when will the kingdom come? Jesus replied,
'The kingdom will not come by watching for it. It will not be said -
look here or look there. Rather, the kingdom of heaven is spread out
upon the earth and men do not see it."
What does this quote mean for the atheist as well as the religious
minded person?
For the atheist or as a nonbeliever of an afterlife:
THIS LIFE IS IT - This life is either heaven or hell as you make it.
Just grabbing all the gusto you can will not give you peace.
It requires much more than that - for greed is never satisfied by
attainment, it is only satisfied by contentment. We are reminded to be
mindful of each moment given to us and to be grateful for this life.
Being of service to others and charitable actions help lead us to
contentment and peace.
There are 3 components for a happy life: Contentment, love or
compassion and gratitude. When we realize that happiness and
contentment are there for the taking and that they are independent
from our circumstances it sometimes can sink in that there is nothing
stopping us from being content and happy this very instant.
It is your choice alone as to whether you make this life one of peace
for yourself and others or not, but in either case you will reap what
you sow. "Just as a life of virtue yields its own reward, a life of
vice yields its own punishment" - Plutarch
For the religious minded person and believer in an afterlife:
Jesus' saying will foreshadow things to come. For if we make this
earthly life hell for ourselves and others, we have a slim chance of
doing better in an afterlife. Just paying lip service to religious
principles and doing the opposite will not do it.
Again mindfulness of our actions is most important. An old Buddhist
saying sheds some light on our journey "when one eye is kept on the
destination, it only leaves one eye left for the journey." If we keep
fixated on the after life, and can't find peace in the present life,
we can lose sight of the fact that our actions can turn the present
moment in a living hell for us as well as others.
Actions speak louder than words and this especially applies to such
religious beliefs. By applying the rule of reciprocity and Christian
ethics and charity we have better chance at entering any afterlife and
in the interim help make this life a peaceful one for all that dwell
on earth.
So, whether you are on either end of this spectrum of beliefs, the
choices are the same as to the direction we take when it comes to
inner peace.
The seeds of enlightenment are all around us - we only have to seek
the truth and come to peace within to realize this.
A quote on finding peace from Thich Nhat Hanh
"There is no way to peace, peace is the way. This means that we can
realize peace right here in the present moment with our look, our
smile, our words and our actions. Peace work in not a means, each step
we take should be peace. Every step we take should be joy. Every step
we take should be happiness. Are you massaging Mother Earth every time
your foot touches her? Are you planting seeds of joy and peace?
Enlightenment, peace and joy will not be granted by someone else. The
well is within us and if we dig deeply in the present moment the water
will spring forth. If we are determined, we can do it. We don't need
the future. We can smile, breath fully and relax Everything we want is
here in the present moment. Peace is every step. Shall we continue our
journey?"
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
Futurist
Urban Homesteader
Agnostic minister of secular humanism to the mind-
manacled...spiritually sick...defiance based atheist.
AA#2
Winsome
> On May 15, 9:43 pm, "Winsome" <Wins...@work.net> wrote:
>
>> Ridiculous!
>>
>> The truth is simply this: The 'greatest single cause of Atheism in the
>> world
>> today' is the utterly basic fact that *you haven't got a god to show us*.
>>
>> W.
>
> Fair comment. How do you feel about people of faith?
Unimpressed.
W.
Phoenix
> I don't hate Christians - but *some* of them really piss me off.
Isn't it ironic that as a Christian, I couldn't agree with you more.
Some of them really piss me off too but probably for different
reasons..
Shalom,
Snow
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have
imagined.
Henry David Thoreau
Christopher A. Lee
<phoenix...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>If your offended by a few scriptures for the sake of secular debate,
>don't read on...
>
>First off, Since I am cross posting to alt.atheism for the sake of
>this debate, I'll apologize in advance for any offense by my post.
>Christians seem to be under the disillusion that the world hates Jesus
>who said:
>
>Mat 5:44 釘ut I say to you, love your enemies, bless those cursing
>you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those insulting you and
>persecuting you,
>
>I find this hard to believe that atheist hate Jesus. They may not
>believe in him but for that reason, it would be illogical to hate
>somebody that never existed by their own claimed belief. Anyways, I
>was having this discussion with somebody and they quoted to me:
Why is it so hard to grasp that the rest of the world doesn't revolve
around Christianity and its beliefs, any more than Hinduism, Islam,
Buddhism or anything else?
Keep it to yourselves instead of pushing it where it is neither wanted
nor needed.
It's all about live and bet live.
And when you have neither the common sense nor courtesy to do that,
don't _ever_ lie about the negative reaction to your own bad behaviour
towards others.
This only escalates the ill-feeling cause by your initial disrespect.
Also have the intelligence which most of you don't have, to realise
that outside your religion it's merely somebody else's religious
belief, that has no relevance to us at all.
And this includes rudely and stupidly talking as though your beliefs
were real.
Think about it: it means no more to us than your pretend friend.
Learn to live with it.
In the real world there are hundreds of different religions each with
their own deity-beliefs.
And yours is no different to everybody else than any of the others.
Learn to live with that as well.
We're no more interested in having idiots telling us yours is real
than you are in idiots insisting every minute of the day and night
that Zeus is real, with all the mythological baggage that goes along
with it.
And worse, presuming its reality to people you know don't share that
belief.
And taking no notice of the fact that to everybody else it's myth,
legend and fairy tale.
None of which is rocket science.
The message they give is that they are in-your-face, rude, deluded
idiots totally out of touch with reality.
Who turn nasty when they can't cope with the reaction to their own
appalling behaviour.
Think about it: we're merely people in the real world outside your
religion.
It doesn't matter whether we are atheist, Hindu, Buddhist or anything
else.
Phoenix
Unfortunately then by your statements you would hate me for my belief,
I think. You make very interesting statements and maybe when I have
more time, I can speak in more details about them. I believe the
absolute validity but I wouldn't say I "go out of my way" to push it
in the face of those who disagree.
My position is that my belief is mine and what yours is yours and I
need to respect that if I'm to have mine respected in return.
Shalom,
Snow
I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad.
Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague,
like a breeze among flowers.
Helen Keller
Christopher A. Lee
<phoenix...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>On May 15, 8:51 pm, "Pink Freud" <somewh...@here.com> wrote:
>
>> >> E> Christianity and all other religions. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>>
>> > Forgot that one... :) Thanks for playing... thats two votes for the
>> > bible being right and none for me.
>>
>> Respectfully disagree.
>>
>> I hate *religion*, not religious people.
>
>O.K. I'm not saying this is right because I disagree with the
>practice.. but the test your resolve here...
>
>Seventh Day Adventist come knocking on your door and they ask, "Do you
>know Jesus?" "We'd like to give you a copy of the Watch Tower"?
They'd be morons because that would make them Jehovah's witnesses.
But if they really were either, the would get a response combining
whatever I happened to be doing at the time, and what all other
solicitors at the door get.
They would also be stupid presuming Jesus to people they don't know.
But they should have the sense to understand why they're not wanted in
the first place, that they interrupt more important things like taking
a dump, having a shower, being at a critical point cooking dinner,
answering the phone, listening to a CD or watching a DVD, having the
cat curled up asleep on your lap, etc.
They should also have the sense to be polite and courteous. Which far
too many aren't.
And unwanted telephone salespeople get.
The strength of the reaction also depends on their courtesy of lack of
it.
Christopher A. Lee
<phoenix...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>On May 15, 10:38 pm, "Pink Freud" <somewh...@here.com> wrote:
>> "Phoenix" <phoenixhasri...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
>>
>> news:c001c7f0-9258-458e...@j33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On May 15, 8:51 pm, "Pink Freud" <somewh...@here.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> >> E> Christianity and all other religions. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>>
>> >> > Forgot that one... :) Thanks for playing... thats two votes for the
>> >> > bible being right and none for me.
>>
>> >> Respectfully disagree.
>>
>> >> I hate *religion*, not religious people.
>>
>> > O.K. I'm not saying this is right because I disagree with the
>> > practice.. but the test your resolve here...
>>
>> > Seventh Day Adventist come knocking on your door and they ask, "Do you
>> > know Jesus?" "We'd like to give you a copy of the Watch Tower"?
>>
>> > How do you feel about that?
>>
>> I would tell them they were wasting their time, and politely send them on
>> their way. If they didn't take no for an answer, I would shut the door in
>> their faces.
>>
>> I actually pity people like that.
>
>Me too... You've restored my hope in Atheist. :) It's good to see
>somebody able to have a normal conversation. I'd have to say your a
>fairly normal person with good cognitive skills.
Just treat atheists as ordinary decent people who just want to get on
with their own lives, and who have exactly the same concerns you do:
earning enough to pay the mortgage or rent, feed the family, medical
bills, education etc.
Instead of bringing up the only thing you haven't got in common as
though is should be as important to them as it is to you.
And *T*H*I*N*K* before bringing up religious presumptions you know
they don't grant.
It's really that simple.
Hatter
Well you haven't shown much evidence of any behavior that would
warrant my hate.
Would you attempt to try to legislate your morality, enforce you
belief, mandate it's teaching by force of law...if so then you will be
subject to my ire.
> My position is that my belief is mine and what yours is yours and I
> need to respect that if I'm to have mine respected in return.
>
I think you are conflagrating respect and tolerance. I don't respect
Christian belief. I find it childish delusions, however I tolerate
it...and if someone were to attempt to try to use of force of law or
arms to abondon your belief, they too would be subject to my ire, my
hatred, perhaps even my capacity for violence. It is a subtle thing,
take for instance lets say you find displays of nudity offensive and
you block certain cable stations into your home, don't patronize
bookstores that might carry adult magazines, refuse to purchase
products that advertise in playboy...you are displaying tolerance, not
respect. You "put up" with people doing elsewise because you tolerate
it for the greater good of living in a free society...but you still
think less of them for doing so, you don't respect them. I have a
similar feeling towards Christianity.
Hatter
Hollis Brown
>
> Seventh Day Adventist come knocking on your door and they ask, "Do you
> know Jesus?" "We'd like to give you a copy of the Watch Tower"?
>
> How do you feel about that?
>
Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. I have a collection of such people
in my basement.
HB
Mike Painter
>>
>> they could keep their idiotic slavery to their mythology a private
>> matter.
>
> Ironically, the bible only tells Christians to be prepared to give a
> "witness" and really says nothing about going around chasing people
> down. To the contrary were suppose to "shake the dust off" and leave
> people in alone if they don't except our beliefs and be an example by
> our actions and lifestyles and not our words.
Most who "chase" people down do so becasue they are told to "go and teach
all nations" Teach, not witness.
As for Mathew,I'd suggest you read that passage over again. Mat 10:14 says
"when" you leave, it does not tell you to leave.
You need 2 Cor 6:14-17 for what you should be doing and of course Dt.13:6-10
tells you to kill us.
>
> But... given the hostile tone of your post in general, I'd have to say
> that's one for vote for (a). Hate the lot of us, Jesus, Christians
> and all our "mythology".
It is mythology, and our hostility is towards people like you who have
little or no education in the subject coming in and telling us what the
bible *really* means.
If any two of you had a consistent view or were actually capable of doing
anything but quoting bible verses, you would be welcomed with open arms.
As for hating this god of your, I doubt any of us hate it any more than I
hate the brownie that didn't repair my shoes last night.
>
> Thanks for taking the time to give an honest response and what I'm
> hoping is that Christians will take this as a chance to learn to
> communicate with one another.
>
> Brennan Manning said, " The Greatest single cause of Atheism in the
> world today are Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and
> walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an
> unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."
Cute, but the evidence here shows that education is what turns people into
atheists.
If Manning is not a moderate to liberal christian chances are there are very
few "True Christians" around.
Mike Painter
<snip>
>>
>>> We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as
>>> fools.
>>> Martin Luther King, Jr.
>>
>
> Forgot that one... :) Thanks for playing... thats two votes for the
> bible being right and none for me.
But as the the man he was named after, teh one who wrote "On teh Jews and
thhier lies" said,
Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of his Reason.
-- Martin Luther
"All the article of our christian faith, which God has revealed to us in His
Word, are in the presence of reason sheerly impossible, absurd and false.
...Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has. ...She is the devils
greatest whore... a whore eaten by scabs and leprosy, who ought to be
trodden underfoot and destroyed, she and her wisdom...Throw dung in her
face...drown her in baptism"
-- Martin Luther
"If by any effort of reason I could conceive how God, Who shows so much
anger and iniquity, could be merciful and just, there would be no need of
faith."
-- Martin Luther
"I do not admit that my doctrine can be judged by anyone, even the angels.
He who does not receive my doctrine cannot be saved"
-- Martin Luther Werke (Erlangen),XXIX , 217-33, on Maritian, 15.
Don Martin
> On May 15, 10:58 pm, Don Martin <drdonmar...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > One does not hate a dog turd--one merely avoids stepping in it.
>
> At least you have a good sense of humor about it... but I don't think
> anybody likes a big radiant pile of shit stinking up the house
> either... I'd have to chalk that one up to hating Christians.
I thought that I made it clear that I do not _hate_ the christians I
encounter: I dislike them without having any fear of them or respect
toward them. I have the same reaction to rock music fans on the
highway whose music is louder in my car than that from my own radio:
noxious behaviors arising from an utter lack of consideration for
others breed distancing, not hatred.
The utter lack of consideration for others that christians most often
exhibit is the assumption that they are, of course, right, and you
are, of course, wrong (damnably so, as a matter of fact): this is not
a good basis for a dialogue.
Hatter
> in the mode prescribed by physicists?
I don't think god exists or has to exist in an objective fashion.
> Why can't God exist in the mode
> prescribed by sociologists?
> Or a poet for that matter?
Exactly, as a myth.
>
> You have blind faith in your ability to know of
> all actual or possible modes of existence.
>
One requires belief therefore is part of the subjective, and the other
requires no belief and is part of the objective. That isn't blind,
that called "facing up to reality"
> Do you believe in democracy?
As a subjective concept
> Do you have any idea how to prove that
> democracy exists in USA?
A subject mode of government does not equal the concept of a being
that supposedly predates mankind and the universe itself. So don't
play games, just because I don't acknowledge Yahweh as a being, does
not mean I don't acknowledge Yahweh as a myth people believe in.
> If so, use the same method
> to look for God, please.
>
> --
Not equivalent. What you are doing is trying the equate the concept of
how would you think is Justice versus how you would think of is a
tree. One is subjective, and one, although the details can be
subjective, has objective reality.
Hatter
panam...@hotmail.com
> On May 15, 5:29 pm, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
> > they could keep their idiotic slavery to their mythology a private
> > matter.
>
> Ironically, the bible only tells Christians to be prepared to give a
> "witness" and really says nothing about going around chasing people
> down. To the contrary were suppose to "shake the dust off" and leave
> people in alone if they don't except our beliefs and be an example by
> our actions and lifestyles and not our words.
I do not share your mythology. I do not care what your "bible" says
about anything. My main concern is the inappropriate behavior done by
people who believe your mythology is true.
> But... given the hostile tone of your post in general, I'd have to say
> that's one for vote for (a). Hate the lot of us, Jesus, Christians
> and all our "mythology".
Your mythology would be an interesting study in human history, if only
so many people did not still believe it to be fact. As for hating
"Jesus", the evidence leads me to believe the man never existed. I
would not waste time "hating" something that does not exist. Do you
hate Ahuramazda?
You demonstrate your lack of understanding of this process by the very
way your question is phrased. I do not hate the characters in your
fairy tales (Jesus, etc.). I do not hate the poor misinformed people
that still believe your mythology is true (Christians, and other
theists).
On your chart, I'd be answer "E": Religion. What I hate is religion,
pure and simple. Particularly the three Abrahamic religions, since
they all claim something is wrong with each and every single human
being on this planet-simply *because* they were born human. I hate the
neurotic misery and self-hatred such teachings force upon people. I
watch the people who believe that nonsense living fearful, shallow
lives. And since I know that *this* life is the only one people have,
I find anything that causes humans to suffer such misery obscene.
Religion, inequality, poverty (which is simply another form of
inequality, IMO), all should eradicated like the social diseases they
are.
> Thanks for taking the time to give an honest response and what I'm
> hoping is that Christians will take this as a chance to learn to
> communicate with one another.
Doing so would be simply re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
If Christians wish to rise above the morass and start making
*meaningful* contributions to modern society, they should accept the
reality behind their myth and start making human equality their prime
concern.
> Brennan Manning said, " The Greatest single cause of Atheism in the
> world today are Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and
> walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an
> unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."
No, the leading cause of atheism (no capitals, please) is the complete
lack of evidence for creatures that exist outside the natural world.
> I doubt that people realize or consider the ramifications of their
> actions. More often then not people spend the time they have looking
> at everybody else and being the judge of them so that they don't have
> to face the problems in their own lives.
On this, we agree. All I would add is that for some strange reason,
belief in the "supernatural" leads people to think they have the
*right* to do so.
> So far it's one for me being wrong!
No, not really. You can't be "wrong" if you don't yet understand the
question.
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015, Member Knights of BAAWA!
EAC Martian Commander
Plonked by Kadaitcha Man Sept 06
"..the prayer cloth of one aeon is the doormat of the next."
-Mark Twain
Religious societies are *less* moral than secular ones:
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
Thurisaz, Germanic barbarian
> What is it that you hate?
Morontheists.
Explanation:
I don't hate jebus. Jebus doesn't exist, why should I waste any emotion for
this fairy tale figure?
I don't hate christians as a whole. Most of them are decent people. For
obvious reasons I disagree with them on a number of points, but it's like
that with many people. Variety makes life interesting.
As for the dogma of christianity, that's another thing already. "Hate" may
not be the right word, but I do have strong feelings about that (and also
about the horror-ran, for the sake of completeness)... and those feelings
ain't positive.
What I really passionately _hate_ are those who dump reality, reason and
compassion into the trash to embrace a moldy bronze-age book of myths, just
because it gives them justification to feel literally "holier-than-thou".
Which is how I define "morontheism".
Oh, just for the records, as there will be those who wonder...
...I'm not an atheist. :)
--
"To his friend a man a friend shall prove, and gifts with gifts requite;
But men shall mocking with mockery answer, and fraud with falsehood meet."
(The Poetic Edda)
Must have been written with fundies in mind...
My personal judgment of monotheism:
http://www.carcosa.de/nojebus
Athena
(in message <g0htiv$d8g$1...@online.de>):
> Phoenix:
>
>> What is it that you hate?
>
> Morontheists.
>
> Explanation:
>
> I don't hate jebus. Jebus doesn't exist, why should I waste any emotion for
> this fairy tale figure?
Your use of the pejorative terms "Morontheists" and "Jebus" certainly do not
promote people of different beliefs living together in a "live and let live"
way but really just continue the atmosphere of hatred.
Athena
(in message <g0htiv$d8g$1...@online.de>):
> Phoenix:
>
>> What is it that you hate?
>
> Morontheists.
>
> Explanation:
>
> I don't hate jebus. Jebus doesn't exist, why should I waste any emotion for
> this fairy tale figure?
Your use of the pejorative terms "Morontheists" and "Jebus" certainly do not
Hollis Brown
Just a joke, dearheart. I have no enemies. I have no collection of
people. I have no basement.
Do enemies even exist?
Do you know what they are?
Does Stumper have a fondness for fish?
Does he drive a foreign car?
HB
Don Martin
> On Thu, 15 May 2008 12:58:27 -0500, Thurisaz, Germanic barbarian wrote
>
> > Phoenix:
>
> >> What is it that you hate?
>
> > Morontheists.
>
> > Explanation:
>
> > I don't hate jebus. Jebus doesn't exist, why should I waste any emotion for
> > this fairy tale figure?
>
> Your use of the pejorative terms "Morontheists" and "Jebus" certainly do not
> promote people of different beliefs living together in a "live and let live"
> way but really just continue the atmosphere of hatred.
Your posting the same finger-wagging message twice does not advance
the notion that christians deserve unearned respect, very much either.
But chacun a son gout.
saint...@hotmail.com
>
>
> A> Jesus, Christians and the whole lot
>
> B> Jesus
>
> C> Christians
>
> D> People that are hypocrites.
>
>
> Snow
Christopher A. Lee
wrote:
Fostered by Christians who can't live and let liove.
Christianity commands its followers not to. But they can't cope when
they reap what they sow.
SkyEyes
> If your offended by a few scriptures for the sake of secular debate,
> don't read on...
I'm not. I'd venture to say that I know the bible *at least* as well
as you do, and maybe better.
> First off, Since I am cross posting to alt.atheism for the sake of
> this debate, I'll apologize in advance for any offense by my post.
<Eyeroll> Whatever.
> Christians seem to be under the disillusion that the world hates Jesus
> who said:
>
> Mat 5:44 “But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those cursing
> you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those insulting you and
> persecuting you,
>
> I find this hard to believe that atheist hate Jesus.
We don't hate Jesus. Jesus is a mythological character. Hating him
would be like hating Moby Dick - it doesn't make any sense.
> They may not
> believe in him but for that reason, it would be illogical to hate
> somebody that never existed by their own claimed belief. Anyways, I
> was having this discussion with somebody and they quoted to me:
>
> Joh 15:19 “If you were of the world, the world would love its own. But
> because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world,
> for that reason the world hates you.
>
> The idea is that the world hates Christians because of Jesus and I
> don't find that a logical idea either. So... I'd like to put the
> question out there... What is it that you hate?
Your behavior. Like crossposting christian nonsense to alt.atheism,
and proselytizing here when you know damn well it's against our
charter. We also hate the way you assume that bible verses are going
to have any effect on us. We also hate the way *most* christers
assume that we atheists are (1) amoral and (2) really believe in your
god, we just want to live without rules, so we "deny god."
Here's what atheism boils down to: we don't believe you. If you have
any objective, verifiable evidence for the existence of your god,
please present it, and we'll talk. Otherwise, BUTT OUT.
Have I made myself clear: what we hate is your inability to MIND YOUR
OWN DAMN BUSINESS.
> Now what I believe atheist hate is first off, the lack of respect from
> Christians as in the example of Sound of Trumpet and his cross posting
> to alt.atheism.
Yes, thank you.
> Even Mr. Chang shows restraint and doesn't cross post
> until after SoT starts his cross posting...
You mean Chunkers? Chunkers is insane. His condition has nothing to
do with you, except for the outward form it takes, which is a crazy
mix of bad medicine and theology.
> What I've seen is that if we stay in our forums, many of the atheist
> stay out of the Christian forums but of course none of us can speak
> for all of us... (sigh)
I have never gone to a christian forum *in my entire internet life*.
If you guys don't cross-post here, you won't here from me, that's a
promise.
> I also tend to think that what atheist hate is the self-righteous,
> self-serving hypocritacal attitudes of a lot of Christians...
Indeed.
> they
> profess to believe in scriptures that tell them to be perfect and yet
> we see so many horrible examples examples by Christians.
>
> Our actions, speech and general attitude is one of arrogance and
> doesn't reflect the reality of our actions. Our "good works" are
> tokens at best and we claim to believe the bible but toss out anything
> that we feel doesn't apply. The Ten Commandments go out the door and
> atheist see us all as pretentious.
>
> We claim to believe in Jesus and act like the devil himself...
>
> Jas 1:22 And become doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving
> yourselves.
>
> So world.. give me proof I'm wrong.
>
> What do you hate:
>
> A> Jesus, Christians and the whole lot
>
> B> Jesus
>
> C> Christians
Specifically, christians who won't behave themselves by keeping their
drivel to themselves. I don't hate christians. When my mom was
elderly and living with me, I got up out of my bed early every sunday
morning to drive her to her church. If I hated christians, I would
have refused to do that.
> D> People that are hypocrites.
Ooooohhhhhh, yeahhhhhhhhhh....
And you forgot one, so I'll add it in for you:
E> Christianity.
Yes, I hate christianity, it's a vile, awful theology that causes
mental problems and is full of the most horrific features that play
into the worst of human nature. In fact, I hate all forms of
monotheism because they cause an I'm-right-and-you're-wrong mindset in
their adherents. Before monotheism, everybody just hung out with
their own gods, and if a guy had another god, hey, that was cool.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes nine at cox dot net
Athena
]
>
> Your posting the same finger-wagging message twice does not advance
> the notion that christians deserve unearned respect, very much either.
> But chacun a son gout.
>
>
Sorry, but I only look at alt.chirstnet.theology and someone played with the
headers so it only went to alt.atheism which I realized when it was not on
AC. I normally check, especially with some who post, and this one slipped
through. Will have to remember to look carefully with this posted
If people were serious, they would not post and then try to restrict replies,
but would only reply to those groups from which others could reply.
There are some who tend to do that a lot - wonder why they want others to see
their words but not the responses of others. What ore they afraid of? Do they
feel they need to the "group police" and control it? Are they jsut trolls
having fun.
You do seem rather quick to attack.
Don Martin
> On May 14, 10:57 pm, Phoenix <phoenixhasri...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
[cogent discussion snipped]
> And you forgot one, so I'll add it in for you:
>
> E> Christianity.
>
> Yes, I hate christianity, it's a vile, awful theology that causes
> mental problems and is full of the most horrific features that play
> into the worst of human nature. In fact, I hate all forms of
> monotheism because they cause an I'm-right-and-you're-wrong mindset in
> their adherents. Before monotheism, everybody just hung out with
> their own gods, and if a guy had another god, hey, that was cool.
I suppose that if I must use the word "hate", I would apply it to
monotheistic theology in general. Any set of ideas that can lead its
weaker-minded believers to righteously harming other persons is
pernicious and deserving of hatred. We get a lot of apologies from the
"good" christians for the little errors their faith has made in its
ethnic and doctrinal cleansings from time to time, but their words are
empty. Unless and until the god of which they speak can restore the
victims of the faith to their friends and families, it is despicable.
The same goes for jewish and muslim excesses as well, of course.
Hatter
> Hatter wrote:
> >> Hatter wrote:
> >> what Communists did to millions of innocent religious people,
> >> in many cases mainly because of their faith.
>
> > So?? Atheism does not equal Communism except in people of very limited
> > intellect.
>
> > Hatter
>
> Both hate religion.
>
Atheism means without god. Atheistic religions exist. Therefore you
are wrong.
Hatter
Virgil
Athena <ath...@kemosabe.ind> wrote:
Fr those of us who are agnostic/atheist, many of the posts attacking us
are cross-posted to an alarming number of obviously theist, and
occasionally fanatically so, newsgroups.
Some of us may wish to restrict our comments to agnostic/atheist
newsgroups instead of priming the feeding frenzies of random theists.
Thus we trim the list of cross-postings appropriately.
Hollis Brown
> Hollis Brown wrote:
> > On May 15, 10:15 am, monkfish <monkfish@nowhere> wrote:
> >> Hollis Brown wrote:
> >> > On May 15, 5:22 am, Phoenix <phoenixhasri...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> >> >> Seventh Day Adventist come knocking on your door and they ask, "Do you
> >> >> know Jesus?" "We'd like to give you a copy of the Watch Tower"?
>
> >> >> How do you feel about that?
>
> >> > Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. I have a collection of such people
> >> > in my basement.
>
> >> > HB
>
> >> You really should learn to love your enemies.
>
> > Just a joke, dearheart. I have no enemies. I have no collection of
> > people. I have no basement.
>
No, Stumpy, I am not. Unless, of course, you consider the human race
to be a hate group. One could probably put together a decent case for
that.
Do hate groups even exist?
Do you know what they are?
Does Stumper tend to stick close to home?
Does he travel near and far?
HB
activ
> In article <0001HW.C451F25500110B82F0407...@news-server.rgv.rr.com>,
There are some who will play with the headers, but it seems to me, if
you are going to respond to a post that goes to multiple groups,
either respond ONLY to the groups you want or respond to them all and
not try to restrict and make others do the work of adding back
groups.
Best way to deal with those who are attacking with you and cross
posting to theist groups and playing with the headers is to not
respond as many are doing that only to inflame.
Many newsreaders allow you to flag posts that go certain groups, and
so set filters to flag those theist groups and do not read them.
People wanting a serious discussion do not inflame and do not play
with headers. If you use Google on-line, then are restricted to
responding to only 5 groups, so may not be able to respond to all, but
certainly can easily allow replies from all the one to which you post.
Best advice is still - do not feed trolls.
Hollis Brown
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/usenet-watch?hl=en
You are quite welcome. Why do you suppose interest in your group was
so low?
>
> How did you escape from the hate-mongering cult?
"Escape" is really too glamourous a word for what I did. I left
Christianity quietly; no fuss, no muss.
Do hate-mongering cults even exist?
Do you know what they are?
How did Stumper lose his name?
Did he leave it in a bar?
HB
Darrell Stec
> What do you hate:
>
> A> Jesus, Christians and the whole lot
>
> B> Jesus
>
> C> Christians
>
> D> People that are hypocrites.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
What do you hate:
1) The Easter bunny
2) Eggs
3) The whole nine yards including stores that perpetrate this "holiday" on
us, Easter Bunny, coloring eggs, eggs, and candy
4) The empty Easter basket
--
Later,
Darrell Stec dar...@neo.rr.com
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
Robibnikoff
"Athena" <ath...@kemosabe.ind> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C451E728...@news-server.rgv.rr.com...
Oh wah. Poor you.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
Robibnikoff
"Athena" <ath...@kemosabe.ind> wrote in message
We heard you the first time, deary.
Removed your crossposting, BTW.
Uncle Vic
> What do you hate:
>
> A> Jesus, Christians and the whole lot
>
> B> Jesus
>
> C> Christians
>
> D> People that are hypocrites.
>
Christianity is not the only religion that displays great faults,
which its members all ignore. What I can't stand is present in all
religion, the lack of teaching one to live and let live.
--
Uncle Vic
2011
Andy W
> If your offended by a few scriptures for the sake of secular debate,
> don't read on...
>
> this debate, I'll apologize in advance for any offense by my post.
> who said:
>
> Mat 5:44 “But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those cursing
> you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those insulting you and
> persecuting you,
>
> believe in him but for that reason, it would be illogical to hate
> somebody that never existed by their own claimed belief. Anyways, I
> was having this discussion with somebody and they quoted to me:
>
> Joh 15:19 “If you were of the world, the world would love its own. But
> because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world,
> for that reason the world hates you.
>
> The idea is that the world hates Christians because of Jesus and I
> don't find that a logical idea either. So... I'd like to put the
Personally, I can't think of anyone I hate, either individually or as
a group.
The thing about John 15:19 is that it is for some a self fulfilling
prophecy. They think that, since Jesus said True Christians would be
hated, they have to be hated in order to be True Christians, and so
they engage in obnoxious behaviour and claim hatred and persecution
when people rightly criticise them for it. Take this to the extreme
and you end up as Fred Phelps.
Andy
Andy W
> On May 15, 8:51 pm, "Pink Freud" <somewh...@here.com> wrote:
>
> > >> E> Christianity and all other religions. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> > > Forgot that one... :) Thanks for playing... thats two votes for the
> > > bible being right and none for me.
>
>
> > I hate *religion*, not religious people.
>
> O.K. I'm not saying this is right because I disagree with the
> practice.. but the test your resolve here...
>
> Seventh Day Adventist come knocking on your door and they ask, "Do you
> know Jesus?" "We'd like to give you a copy of the Watch Tower"?
>
> How do you feel about that?
That would be Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't know that the Adventists do
the door to door thing.
If they want a discussion, then I give them that; and if they just
want to give me their magazines and leave, then that's what happens.
But I don't do this out of any respect for them or their religion; I
do it because I like it. If a politician comes to the door wanting the
same things, its "no thanks, not interested, goodbye."
Andy
>
> Shalom,
>
> Snow
>
> Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must
> be unaffected by outside circumstances.
> Mohandas Gandhi
Phoenix
> Phoenix wrote:
> >> they could keep their idiotic slavery to their mythology a private
> >> matter.
>
> > Ironically, the bible only tells Christians to be prepared to give a
> > "witness" and really says nothing about going around chasing people
> > down. To the contrary were suppose to "shake the dust off" and leave
> > people in alone if they don't except our beliefs and be an example by
> > our actions and lifestyles and not our words.
>
> all nations" Teach, not witness.
With all due respect Mike, I am teaching and it's an important message
for Christians. I'm teaching them NOT to be morons and waste energy
trying to teach people that have no desire to learn what my religion
is. Teaching Christians about respect for other peoples belief
systems.
As a "fisher of men", doesn't it make sense to actually wait until I
have a "fish" in that bites before I try to reel him in? Now I can go
out and act like that complete moron Andrew B. Chung and carpet bomb
the entire ocean with drivels of Jesus phrases but come on.. the only
thing that jerk is teaching anybody is that he is a total idiot and I
really wonder how anybody would have given that guy a degree. The
fact is disrespectful morons only teach people that Christians are
arrogant, stupid and lack any kind of social skills. Chung is
teaching people that Christians are pathological liars and thats why
I... as a Christian.. gladly stand in opposition to his moronic and
disrespectful tactics.
On the other hand, I can show respect for people. Tell them, this is
what I believe and if somebody wants to inquire they are of course
welcome to ask and I would then give my witness.
I'd like to point out... I didn't have to mention a single scripture
in the bible to do that. Scriptures are for people that want to learn
what it is I believe but realistically, I'd be insulting your
intelligence if I didn't already acknowledge that some atheist know
the scriptures just as well as I do.
> As for Mathew,I'd suggest you read that passage over again. Mat 10:14 says
> "when" you leave, it does not tell you to leave.
Clearly "fishing" in alt.atheist would be like fishing in my bathtub.
I can have my line in all day and I'm still not going to catch any
fish. It would be a complete waste of my time and yours and it would
only go to show that I'm stupid for trying to fish in a spot that has
nothing for me to catch. On the other hand... casting a net out from
time to time in this large pond "just to make sure"... doesn't hurt my
cause either when I'm respectful to your understanding.
> You need 2 Cor 6:14-17 for what you should be doing and of course Dt.13:6-10
> tells you to kill us.
Ironically, I don't think apostle Paul belongs in scriptures and I'm
not going to get into that in this forum out of respect. To say that
I believe he is a fraud and a liar is putting it lightly and his
inclusion in my scripture "in my opinion" is destroying Christianity
is putting it lightly. You can find a post literally drivels of post
that I've made in the past on the topic if you do a search on "The
greatest story never told, the trojan horse of Christianity, the 13th
apostle."
Beyond that.. I'm not going to discuss scriptures because I do respect
other people in the forum.
> > Thanks for taking the time to give an honest response and what I'm
> > hoping is that Christians will take this as a chance to learn to
> > communicate with one another.
>
> > Brennan Manning said, " The Greatest single cause of Atheism in the
> > world today are Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and
> > walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an
> > unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."
>
> Cute, but the evidence here shows that education is what turns people into
> atheists.
> If Manning is not a moderate to liberal christian chances are there are very
> few "True Christians" around.
Actually he's a Catholic priest but I do happen to agree with him.
Since I am required to be an example by my life, I need to set high
standards that represent my faith, otherwise, I'm just another fraud
that would rightly be the subject line of one of Yang's "SoT" cross
post.
Thanks for at least taking the time to share your thoughts in such a
polite manner. It's actually a lot more then I expected and you guys
are giving proof to Christians that they can respect other peoples
beliefs, have a civil conversation and still learn something without
accusing each other and still learn and teach each other.
If I truly subscribe to my own belief then I should recognize we all
have needs.
Shalom,
Snow
Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up.
Brigham Young
Phoenix
>
>
>
> >>> We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as
> >>> fools.
> >>> Martin Luther King, Jr.
>
>
> > Forgot that one... :) Thanks for playing... thats two votes for the
> > bible being right and none for me.
>
> thhier lies" said,
> Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of his Reason.
> -- Martin Luther
>
> "All the article of our christian faith, which God has revealed to us in His
> Word, are in the presence of reason sheerly impossible, absurd and false.
> ...Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has. ...She is the devils
> greatest whore... a whore eaten by scabs and leprosy, who ought to be
> trodden underfoot and destroyed, she and her wisdom...Throw dung in her
> face...drown her in baptism"
> -- Martin Luther
>
> "If by any effort of reason I could conceive how God, Who shows so much
> anger and iniquity, could be merciful and just, there would be no need of
> faith."
> -- Martin Luther
>
> "I do not admit that my doctrine can be judged by anyone, even the angels.
> He who does not receive my doctrine cannot be saved"
> -- Martin Luther Werke (Erlangen),XXIX , 217-33, on Maritian, 15.
I don't care much for Martin Luther and he wasn't the Messiah so his
words have about as much value as yours or mine. Realistically he
didn't accomplish anything all that great and in my opinion it's
better to be a good example. The worlds still full of hypocrites and
his doctrine was very anti-semitic considering he was trying to sell a
"Jewish" religion and Messiah.
Shalom,
Snow
Give to us clear vision that we may know where to stand and what to
stand for - because unless we stand for something, we shall fall for
anything.
Peter Marshall
Mike Painter
You and your beliefs are not worth hating.
A few centuries ago they would have been because you would have tried to
kill us and used you bible to justify it.
"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the
wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee
secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known,
thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round
about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither
shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou
conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon
him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou
shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10
Phoenix
> Phoenix wrote:
> > If your offended by a few scriptures for the sake of secular debate,
> > don't read on...
>
> annoyed by your post. It's a dishonest trick used by those who are
> preparing to demonize anyone who disagrees with them.
>
> > The idea is that the world hates Christians because of Jesus and I
> > don't find that a logical idea either. So... I'd like to put the
> > Now what I believe atheist hate is...
>
> Why are you assuming hate? Annoyance, irritation, amusement, disgust,
> yes, but hate? That is a very, very strong word.
>
> > What I've seen is that if we stay in our forums, many of the atheist
> > stay out of the Christian forums but of course none of us can speak
> > for all of us... (sigh)
>
> your post.
>
> > Our actions, speech and general attitude is one of arrogance and
> > doesn't reflect the reality of our actions.
>
> really annoying.
>
> > So world.. give me proof I'm wrong.
>
> you deserve to have your prejudices confirmed?
>
> > What do you hate:
>
> I don't hate any of the things you list. I have a very, very strong
> dislike for people who abuse language and cheapen words by misusing
> them, but that's as far as it gets.
>
> --
> L. Raymond
I actually say atheist because I believe in a one on one discourse and
since only one atheist at a time reads these post and not a group of
atheists sitting behind a computer.. It's correct to say atheist.
To the contrary, very few people are confirming any prejudice but it
has been my experience in the past that it's right to first announce
my intentions and be honest and upfront about what topic I'm
discussing. BUT... even you have to admit that sometimes... people in
alt.atheist can have a reaction to scriptures that screams they are
offended by even the mention of them.. Most likely it's because of
the many morons that are disrespectful of your ideology.
The word "Hate" is in the bible and I'm actually trying to give proof
of a point but the ulterior motive is still unknown to anybody reading
this thread.
Most Christians seem to take the stance that they are put upon and
"hated" and my point is... they aren't.. the tactics they use are
wrong and the fact is they don't understand the message they are
reading. Most likely it's because they profess a faith they don't
really believe. They say the "believe Jesus" and follow the words of
apostle Paul and the two just don't agree.
Shalom,
Snow
Beliefs have the power to create and the power to destroy. Human
beings have the awesome ability to take any experience of their lives
and create a meaning that disempowers them or one that can literally
save their lives.
Tony Robbins
Phoenix
Good post.. honest feelings and I can't disagree with you outside of
our different beliefs. I strongly agree with your point about
"morontheism" and the "holier then thou" attitude and I think we can
agree on that.
My "bronze age scriptures" tells me to be humble and that should be a
priority among people of my belief.
I appreciate you taking the time to share your point of view in a
civil fashion.
Thank you.
Shalom,
Snow
In essence, if we want to direct our lives, we must take control of
our consistent actions. It's not what we do once in a while that
shapes our lives, but what we do consistently.
Tony Robbins
Phoenix
> The thing about John 15:19 is that it is for some a self fulfilling
> prophecy. They think that, since Jesus said True Christians would be
> hated, they have to be hated in order to be True Christians, and so
> they engage in obnoxious behaviour and claim hatred and persecution
> when people rightly criticise them for it. Take this to the extreme
> and you end up as Fred Phelps.
>
> Andy
You just hit the nail right on the head Andy! In the context that I
understand it.. your absolutely right. It goes a little deeper then
that but you just got straight to the heart of the issue. If your a
Christian.. post to me on alt.messianic.yeshua because I'd love to
talk more about that.
Out of respect it's not a topic (the scriptural aspects of it) I'd
speak about when cross posting to alt.atheism.
Shalom,
Snow
It's not the events of our lives that shape us, but our beliefs as to
what those events mean.
Tony Robbins
saint...@hotmail.com
> If your offended by a few scriptures for the sake of secular debate,
> don't read on...
>
> this debate, I'll apologize in advance for any offense by my post.
> Christians seem to be under the disillusion that the world hates Jesus
> who said:
>
> Mat 5:44 “But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those cursing
> you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those insulting you and
> persecuting you,
>
> I find this hard to believe that atheist hate Jesus. They may not
> believe in him but for that reason, it would be illogical to hate
> somebody that never existed by their own claimed belief. Anyways, I
> was having this discussion with somebody and they quoted to me:
>
> Joh 15:19 “If you were of the world, the world would love its own. But
> because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world,
> for that reason the world hates you.
>
> don't find that a logical idea either. So... I'd like to put the
> question out there... What is it that you hate?
>
> Christians as in the example of Sound of Trumpet and his cross posting
> until after SoT starts his cross posting...
>
> stay out of the Christian forums but of course none of us can speak
> for all of us... (sigh)
>
> profess to believe in scriptures that tell them to be perfect and yet
> we see so many horrible examples examples by Christians.
>
> tokens at best and we claim to believe the bible but toss out anything
> that we feel doesn't apply. The Ten Commandments go out the door and
> atheist see us all as pretentious.
>
> We claim to believe in Jesus and act like the devil himself...
>
> Jas 1:22 And become doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving
> yourselves.
>
>
>
> A> Jesus, Christians and the whole lot
>
> B> Jesus
>
> C> Christians
>
> D> People that are hypocrites.
>
>
> Snow
Phoenix
Now you've gone and done it. You've asked the real question and that
answer.. even in Christian circles is most definitely Yes. It's the
reason that I keep suggesting to Christians that the scriptures
doesn't really apply to them.
Interesting.. I figured out what I wanted to know. Thanks everybody
for your tolerance and putting up with my "fairy tales".. hope all of
you have a great day.
Shalom,
Snow
An individual has not started living until he can rise above the
narrow confines of his individualistic concerns to the broader
concerns of all humanity.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Mike Painter
>
> I actually say atheist because I believe in a one on one discourse and
> since only one atheist at a time reads these post and not a group of
> atheists sitting behind a computer.. It's correct to say atheist.
So when you give a speech in a large auditorium you speak to one person at a
time because the sound get to each person at a slightly different time?
>
> To the contrary, very few people are confirming any prejudice but it
> has been my experience in the past that it's right to first announce
> my intentions and be honest and upfront about what topic I'm
> discussing. BUT... even you have to admit that sometimes... people in
> alt.atheist can have a reaction to scriptures that screams they are
> offended by even the mention of them.. Most likely it's because of
> the many morons that are disrespectful of your ideology.
Usually you will find that reaction is because they actually know what the
context of the scripture is. We also are aware that it is rare for two of
you to agree on the meaning of a large part of it, or to admit others here
know a lot more about it.
You oft-quoted Mathew 10:14 for example does not say to leave, it says when
you leave.
>
> The word "Hate" is in the bible and I'm actually trying to give proof
> of a point but the ulterior motive is still unknown to anybody reading
> this thread.
Well get to it chicky boy. Is it so difficult to actually say what you mean
and move on?
>
Phoenix
wrote:
Let's not leave out:
Mat 10:13 “And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it.
But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you.
That means that it's up to me to use my judgment on what is worthy of
MY peace. I find everybody is worthy that returns the respect I give
them first.
Ultimately and it's the same point I just made to my fellow
"believers" in Christian chat...
Christians aren't hated. They are disliked because they are
hypocrites and Pharisee's. They preach a two sided doctrine that
falls in on itself. They have Commandments that say, "Remember the
Sabbath" and they go to church on Sunday. They keep pagan practices
and deny they are pagan and yet any atheist is all to quick to educate
them on Christmas and Easter as to coming from Pagan origins.
They claim to believe Jesus and spend there time quoting Paul who
always contradicts everything Jesus said and I'm sure even atheist
could show me a dozen examples that even I haven't found yet.
The discussion I was having on Christian pages is titled, "Apostle
Paul: Why the Christian church has failed society"
Now I realize that a lot of atheist are just going to say it's because
it's about a non-existent God so I haven't touched these issues here.
To that end.. I'll just copy and paste the rant I just put to the
Christians and see what you think of it...
Whats sad is that you guys are so easy to get bogged down in pettiness
it really goes to illustrate just why you fail as Christians. My
original statement was:
We all know that Constantine mixed the true religion of the Messiah
with that of paganism!
Fact is you guys do also with your Christmas Trees, Easter and Sunday
worship. You just don't want to face the fact that while you claim to
believe in Jesus, you disregard everything he taught.
Thats the facts. Truth hurts. So instead of just facing facts... you
make the issue about something that happened long ago when the real
issue is your own failure.
So, go on.. be petty... show the world you can't face your own
hypocrisy. It's your failure and why an unbelieving world doesn't
want to believe you. Don't think your hated because your Christians..
Your hated because your hypocrites that don't even practice the
scriptures you profess to be the truth.
Your busy trying to sell a Hebrew Messiah and all the while spitting
on everything from the Old Testament because you don't believe Jesus,
you believe Paul and stop kidding yourselves and saying they spoke the
same message.
Show me one scripture that says, "Forget the Sabbath, go to church on
Sunday".. Or "Jesus was born on this day and you should celebrate
it."
You can't, you know you can't but you stand by your lies and thats
really the issue is that YOUR LIARS and thats your failure. Your
telling lies to the world and they are realizing it. You can't sell
your lies forever and expect the world to blindly follow it. Your
church will fall and this is why...
Mat 12:25 And יהושע knew their thoughts, and said to them, “Every
reign divided against itself is laid waste, and every city or house
divided against itself shall not stand.
Thats why the church is falling apart! You preach lawlessness but
expect people to follow your Pharisees teaching man made traditions.
:p
Snow
Change does not roll in on the wheels of inevitability, but comes
through continuous struggle. And so we must straighten our backs and
work for our freedom. A man can't ride you unless your back is bent.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
walksalone
948376...@q24g2000prf.googlegroups.com
Followups set to aa & posters group
> If your offended by a few scriptures for the sake of secular debate,
> don't read on...
Now if you think I can be offended by claimed holy writ, think again.
> First off, Since I am cross posting to alt.atheism for the sake of
> this debate, I'll apologize in advance for any offense by my post.
> Christians seem to be under the disillusion that the world hates Jesus
> who said:
Who, the missing messiah of the xian myth, the one that failed every
requirement of the Judaic myth? That one? Why hate, the emotion can be to
valuable to waste of the figments of theists imaginations.
> Mat 5:44 釘ut I say to you, love your enemies, bless those cursing
> you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those insulting you and
> persecuting you,
Pure Judaic teachings, which had he existed would make sense.
> I find this hard to believe that atheist hate Jesus. They may not
> believe in him but for that reason, it would be illogical to hate
> somebody that never existed by their own claimed belief. Anyways, I
> was having this discussion with somebody and they quoted to me:
> Joh 15:19 的f you were of the world, the world would love its own. But
> because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world,
> for that reason the world hates you.
Well, you see, with circular reasoning & assuming something is true because
it says it's true, you can come up with just about anything. In my case,
the question would be, why would anyone expect me to believe the claims of
any pseudoepigraphic work, or John who.
The above passage is a built in excuse for assholes to feel sanctimonious &
*special*. The world hates them, noit becasuse they are an asshole, but
because they are the beloved of Lucy, sorry, the missing messiah.
> The idea is that the world hates Christians because of Jesus and I
> don't find that a logical idea either. So... I'd like to put the
> question out there... What is it that you hate?
Nothing & no one. Two reasons really.
1] I may need the energy to survive, don't waste it.
2] I realise the damage unfilled hate can do to the individual when it can
not be resolved to the haters satisfaction.
It's so much easier to when they insist, hold them in contempt. They are
not worth the energy it takes for loathing.
> Now what I believe atheist hate is first off, the lack of respect from
> Christians as in the example of Sound of Trumpet and his cross posting
> to alt.atheism. Even Mr. Chang shows restraint and doesn't cross post
> until after SoT starts his cross posting...
A killfile is so much easier.
> What I've seen is that if we stay in our forums, many of the atheist
> stay out of the Christian forums but of course none of us can speak
> for all of us... (sigh)
& the atheist that is there to learn, is he welcome. Rarely if ever.
> I also tend to think that what atheist hate is the self-righteous,
> self-serving hypocritacal attitudes of a lot of Christians... they
> profess to believe in scriptures that tell them to be perfect and yet
> we see so many horrible examples examples by Christians.
The myth fails on the claim that once one becomes xian [in particular] one
is a better person.
> Our actions, speech and general attitude is one of arrogance and
> doesn't reflect the reality of our actions. Our "good works" are
> tokens at best and we claim to believe the bible but toss out anything
> that we feel doesn't apply. The Ten Commandments go out the door and
> atheist see us all as pretentious.
It's called the bully effect. & it's combined with the salad bar xianity
of today.
> We claim to believe in Jesus and act like the devil himself...
Who & who? The devil of xianity is not the satan of the Babylonian Pre-
Vacation of the Judeans. The one that failed to hold true. What was it,
forty instead of seventy years? The Jesus of the Greeks is not the Messiah
of the Judeans.
> Jas 1:22 And become doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving
> yourselves.
to quote Tsao Hsueh-chin
"When the unreal is taken for the real, the real becomes unreal."
> So world.. give me proof I'm wrong.
Can't, unless you are, & so far you appear to be, able to accept the POV
of others as what they mean is what they said, the first time.
> What do you hate:
> A> Jesus, Christians and the whole lot
> B> Jesus
> C> Christians
> D> People that are hypocrites.
None of the above. But the effect of xianity on people, that can be held
up to public examination & ridicule.
> Thanks in advance,
walksalone who is about to kick back with a keg of beer, root beer of
course, & a barrel of hot buttered popcorn. This may be good for a change.
'He who recites the praise of Holiness, in the fullness of faith and with a
devoted heart, praises me, Ahura Mazda; he praises the waters, he praises
the earth, he praises the cattle, he praises the plants, he praises all
good things made by Mazda, all the things that are the offspring of the
good principle.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Phoenix
> > So world.. give me proof I'm wrong.
>
> Can't, unless you are, & so far you appear to be, able to accept the POV
> of others as what they mean is what they said, the first time.
>
> > What do you hate:
> > A> Jesus, Christians and the whole lot
> > B> Jesus
> > C> Christians
> > D> People that are hypocrites.
>
> None of the above. But the effect of xianity on people, that can be held
> up to public examination & ridicule.
I respect what you are saying and thank you for your point of view. I
do think that anybody regardless of ideology or dogma anyone can be
held up to ridicule for something and in my opinion, it's best to
avoid harming our fellow human being when ever possible. I don't
think you need to believe the bible to except that others have
feelings.
I also think it would be a better world if we learned how to respect
other people even if they are wrong. If I consider the fact that many
of you are probably better educated then I am on some matters, then as
long as I have an open mind, I'm learning.
Shalom,
Snow
If you can, help others; if you cannot do that, at least do not harm
them. If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want
to be happy, practice compassion.
Dalai Lama
Thurisaz, Germanic barbarian
> Your use of the pejorative terms "Morontheists" and "Jebus" certainly do
> not promote people of different beliefs living together in a "live and
> let live" way but really just continue the atmosphere of hatred.
Let me get this straight:
So you think I have to be "polite" to not "continue" an atmosphere of hatred
which the morontheists themselves work busily to build up to boiling point
every second of their miserable existence?
Why?
Keep in mind that I'm not talking about religious people per se, and also
not about christians (or muslims), but about the morontheist covens within
religion.
Morontheists don't care for politeness. They don't care for humanity. Or
reason. Or honesty. All that matters for them is that they remain as
unrestricted as possible in openly hating and fighting all that is
different from them, and all that is too complicated for them to understand
- and as they wear willful ignorance and the lack of any education as a
badge of honor, that's a damn lot.
I am to be polite to these dangerous idiots?
Why exactly?
saint...@hotmail.com
saint...@hotmail.com
saint...@hotmail.com
saint...@hotmail.com
Phoenix
> Well?
antisemitism is reason to get your account banned so I doubt anybodies
going to be sitting around telling you they are Nazi's... they tend to
post that on different web sites.
pba...@worldonline.nl
> If your offended by a few scriptures for the sake of secular debate,
> don't read on...
>
> this debate, I'll apologize in advance for any offense by my post.
> Christians seem to be under the disillusion that the world hates Jesus
> who said:
>
> you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those insulting you and
> persecuting you,
>
> believe in him but for that reason, it would be illogical to hate
> somebody that never existed by their own claimed belief. Anyways, I
> was having this discussion with somebody and they quoted to me:
>
> because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world,
> for that reason the world hates you.
>
> don't find that a logical idea either. So... I'd like to put the
> question out there... What is it that you hate?
>
> Christians as in the example of Sound of Trumpet and his cross posting
> to alt.atheism. Even Mr. Chang shows restraint and doesn't cross post
> until after SoT starts his cross posting...
>
> stay out of the Christian forums but of course none of us can speak
> for all of us... (sigh)
>
> self-serving hypocritacal attitudes of a lot of Christians... they
> profess to believe in scriptures that tell them to be perfect and yet
> we see so many horrible examples examples by Christians.
>
> doesn't reflect the reality of our actions. Our "good works" are
> tokens at best and we claim to believe the bible but toss out anything
> that we feel doesn't apply. The Ten Commandments go out the door and
> atheist see us all as pretentious.
>
>
> yourselves.
>
>
>
> A> Jesus, Christians and the whole lot
>
> B> Jesus
>
> C> Christians
>
> D> People that are hypocrites.
>
>
> Snow
>
> We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as
> fools.
> Martin Luther King, Jr.
To be sure, I do not hate anybody
There are some "things" I hate, hypocricy being one.
Being an atheist only requires not to believe in god(s)
I personally am more than an atheist though.
I am a materialst. Which means that I think matter and energy are the
real things in this world, and spiritual things are things that only
exist as ideas in our head.
(including very fine ideas like materialism:-)
As for Jesus, the way he is portrayed in the gospels, I see him as a
man with basically sound humanistic morals, but possibly with a
political agenda that might include violance as an means to his ends.
As for Christians I see them principally as people that have adopted
Jesus's morality (though some seem to have failed to grasp it), but
who are making the mistake of portraying him as a God. Which I think
spoils the humanistic morality a bit.
Some people calling themselves Christians do not seem to have
understood Jesus's morals at all, and to our sadness many of them want
to invade our newsgroup. Which is a shame.
As for the quotes you make, I sees the hate Jesus talks about as being
the consequence of his political ambitions. Not the consequence of his
morality.
But I might be wrong,
some people can really get angry on what I regard to be moral.
However Jesus is not here to explain, is he?
Love,
Peter van Velzen
May 2008
Amstelveen
The Netherlands
Phoenix
wrote:
What an excellent post. Being Christian I don't subscribe to the same
beliefs but I do admire how you can explain what you believe without
being insulting or degrading to other peoples. You might be right
about morality but the fact that you able to be open minded and fair
speaks a lot to you having at least a basic set of them.
You said something interesting that caught my attention about, "matter
and energy are the real things in this world" and that suggest an
understanding of physics. Now what about your outgoing energy? Do
you believe in positive affirmations and things like that? I ask you
that because from a Christian perspective I do believe in the power of
words.
Look forward to learning more about your understanding of the world.
Thanks again,
Shalom,
Snow
Love is the ability and willingness to allow those that you care for
to be what they choose for themselves without any insistence that they
satisfy you.
Wayne Dyer
saint...@hotmail.com
pba...@worldonline.nl
Words are meant to influence the behaviour of other animals. Mainly
humans, but sometimes a dog will listen to his owner too.
As such they have power.
What I do not believe however is that words can have power in any
other way.
Saying "goddamn!" will not lead to anyones damnation
Saying "drop dead" will not kill anyone
Saying "you idiot" will not make the person so addressed any the
wiser.
Generally "strong phrases" are a sign of impotence.
People like Jesus, Muhammed, Moses, Kung fu tse and Siddharta Gautama
are fine examples of the power of words. All of them have been dead
for 1400 to 2800 years, but the words they used made them kind of
immortal.
Nowadays the emphases are not so much on the words - which are only
carriers of the message, but on the message as such. All kinds of
ideas that can spread from person to person, from group to group, from
nation to nation, are called "memes" (to make the analogy with genes).
Some of them have proven to be very potent.
The reason for comparing them to genes is the fact that they can also
mutate, and are subject to "survival of the fittest".
The memes spread by the persons I mentioned are the real reason for
there importance today. Whether Jesus rose from the grave or not is
not the issue. The issue is that people realized that loving your
fellow human will make your life worth while even after you die.
PS it was the words of the editor of a Roman Catholic Weekly that made
me become an atheist.
Thurisaz, Germanic barbarian
world?
Hollis Brown
> Hollis Brown wrote:
> > On May 15, 2:13 pm, monkfish <monkfish@nowhere> wrote:
> >> Hollis Brown wrote:
> >> > On May 15, 12:47 pm, monkfish <monkfish@nowhere> wrote:
> >> >> Hollis Brown wrote:
> >> >> > On May 15, 10:15 am, monkfish <monkfish@nowhere> wrote:
> >> >> >> Hollis Brown wrote:
> >> >> >> > On May 15, 5:22 am, Phoenix <phoenixhasri...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> >> >> >> >> Seventh Day Adventist come knocking on your door and they ask,
> >> >> >> >> "Do you know Jesus?" "We'd like to give you a copy of the Watch
> >> >> >> >> Tower"?
>
> >> >> >> >> How do you feel about that?
>
> >> >> >> > people in my basement.
>
> >> >> >> > HB
>
> >> >> >> You really should learn to love your enemies.
>
> >> >> > Just a joke, dearheart. I have no enemies. I have no collection of
> >> >> > people. I have no basement.
>
> >> >> Are you a member of a hate group?
>
> >> > No, Stumpy, I am not. Unless, of course, you consider the human race
> >> > to be a hate group. One could probably put together a decent case for
> >> > that.
>
> >> > Do hate groups even exist?
> >> > Do you know what they are?
> >> > Does Stumper tend to stick close to home?
> >> > Does he travel near and far?
>
> >> > HB
>
> >> Thank you for reminding me about that newsgroup.
>
> >>http://groups.google.com/group/usenet-watch?hl=en
>
> > You are quite welcome. Why do you suppose interest in your group was
> > so low?
>
> Probably because you guys are largely irrelevant?
> Don't even think about doing anything too rash though.
It is entirely unsurprising that you, Stumper, spend much time on
people you claim are "largely irrelevant." As for "rash," you
shouldn't worry your pretty little head about me. While I did
recently toy with the idea of forced-labor camps for folks like you, I
have opted to live and let live. If anything changes on that score, I
will let you know where to report.
> Do you have any question concerning theology?
Does theology even exist?
Do you know what it is?
Does Stumper ever make any sense?
Is his favorite movie "The Wiz?"
HB
Hollis Brown
>
> If you dare to come to alt.christnet.theology
> and hang in there for a while,
> I will show you how to love even your enemies.
I'm not sure how it could have escaped your attention, but I am
already _in_ alt.christnet.theology. However, I have no interest in
learning to love people who have declared themselves to be my enemy.
Also, thus far you have provided zero incentive to "hang in there" and
I have grave doubts about your ability to teach anyone anything.
>
> If you don't want that I can at least show you
> how to sublimate trolling into constructive conversations.
You appear to have a non-standard definition for "troll." Either
that, or you are projecting. Shall we poll the regular denizens of
alt.christnet.theology, and ask them whether they consider "monkfish/
stumper" or "Hollis Brown" to be more troll-like? I doubt the results
would go your way. In fact, I will hazard a guess that the regulars
of a.c.t. will soon be sending the same sort of complaints to your ISP
that you allege alt.atheism readers to have sent.
>
> You do want to stop hating people, don't you?
You do want to stop beating your wife, don't you?
HB
Hollis Brown
Why do you now seek to bother alt.bible and alt.religion.christian
with this silly exchange? Oh yeah, you're a troll.
Apologies to a.c.t. for feeding your troll. In the future, if I feel
the need to feed a troll, I'll feed one of the legion who make
alt.atheism their home.
So, Stumper, if you feel the need for a meal, you know where to find
me. I know you like to pretend I'm a hater, but I love ya, man!
You may now have the last word (for now), Stumper. I will only reply
if I find your words to be particularly vile.
HB
Andy W
> On May 16, 8:29 am, Andy W <vor...@mailinator.com> wrote:
>
> > The thing about John 15:19 is that it is for some a self fulfilling
> > prophecy. They think that, since Jesus said True Christians would be
> > hated, they have to be hated in order to be True Christians, and so
> > they engage in obnoxious behaviour and claim hatred and persecution
> > when people rightly criticise them for it. Take this to the extreme
> > and you end up as Fred Phelps.
>
> > Andy
>
> You just hit the nail right on the head Andy! In the context that I
> understand it.. your absolutely right. It goes a little deeper then
> that but you just got straight to the heart of the issue. If your a
> Christian.. post to me on alt.messianic.yeshua because I'd love to
> talk more about that.
>
> Out of respect it's not a topic (the scriptural aspects of it) I'd
> speak about when cross posting to alt.atheism.
Ah, you're out of luck there I'm afraid, I'm actually an atheist and
alt.atheism is pretty much the only group I read. My Bible knowledge
might best be described as "patchy" and I probably wouldn't be able to
expand much on what I've already said.
Andy
Douglas Berry
<phoenix...@yahoo.com.au> carved the following into the hard
stone of alt.atheism
>On May 15, 9:43 pm, "Winsome" <Wins...@work.net> wrote:
>
>> Ridiculous!
>>
>> The truth is simply this: The 'greatest single cause of Atheism in the world
>> today' is the utterly basic fact that *you haven't got a god to show us*.
>>
>> W.
>
>Fair comment. How do you feel about people of faith?
How do you feel about Packers fans? Redheads? Left-handed oboe players
with a tendency towards male pattern baldness?
"People of faith" encompasses everyone from Gandhi and Frederick
Douglass to the racists of the World Church of the Creator and the
jihadists in al Qaeda. And one hell of a lot of people who believe in
a quiet manner.
My problem is when "people of faith" try to impose their faith on me.
Your religion thinks being homosexual is wrong? Cool. My national
government has laws that say that all citizens have equal rights. Your
faith cannot trump my laws. get it?
Likewise, I love heavy metal music. Your belief that bands like
Anthrax and Slayer are somehow evil should not, *cannot*, impede my
ability to listen to my music (or read my books, or admire any art I
choose.) You, on the other hand, are free to worship as you wish, read
your books, listen to your music, etc.
The limit of freedom should be when one's acts cause actual,
measurable harm.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
saint...@hotmail.com
wrote:
> On Thu, 15 May 2008 04:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Phoenix
> stone of alt.atheism
>
> >On May 15, 9:43 pm, "Winsome" <Wins...@work.net> wrote:
>
> >> Ridiculous!
>
> >> The truth is simply this: The 'greatest single cause of Atheism in the world
> >> today' is the utterly basic fact that *you haven't got a god to show us*.
Sometimes God remains occult, only to reappear when He wants, not when
you want.
panam...@hotmail.com
I have heard so many of you claim such nonsense that it has become a
cliche. Do you not realize that if this creature has the knowledge and
power you claim it does, then behavior like that is a sign of
neurosis? Your god, if it exists, does not deserve "worship". It needs
therapy.
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
Adonis
<saint...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:568fb348-26e3-4250...@c19g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Why would this god want to be clandestine?
saint...@hotmail.com
Not my God. What you say IS true of the JHVH EL of the Old
Testament. I have been trying very hard to find out who and what He
is.
THE DECEIVER AND ENEMY OF MANKIND
Genesis 2
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying: ‘Of every tree of the
garden thou mayest freely eat;
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not
eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely
die.’
Genesis 3
4 And the serpent said unto the woman: ‘Ye shall not surely die;
5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes
shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.’
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it
was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make
one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat; and she gave
also unto her husband with her, and he did eat.
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent: ‘Because thou hast done
this, cursed art thou from among all cattle, and from among all beasts
of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat
all the days of thy life.’
22 And the LORD God said: ‘Behold, the man is become as one of us, to
know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also
of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.’
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to
till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of
Eden the cherubim, and the flaming sword which turned every way, to
keep the way to the tree of life.
Genesis 11
6 And the LORD said: ‘Behold, they are one people, and they have all
one language; and this is what they begin to do; and now nothing will
be withholden from them, which they purpose to do.
7 Come, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they
may not understand one another's speech.’
8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all
the earth; and they left off to build the city.
9 Therefore was the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did
there confound the language of all the earth; and from thence did the
LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
10 These are the generations of Shem. …
WHO IS THE LORD GOD (JHVH EL) OF GENESIS 2 AND 3?
From the names in classical order (above), JHVH EL is a compound of
the first, fifth, and seventh archangels. He attempts to dominate,
deny altogether, and persecute the One who corresponds to the third
archangel, namely JHVSA, or JEHOSHUA, aka Jesus. The archetypal
relationship of JHVH EL to JHVSA and all He represents has clarified
the very essence of the character of JHVH EL: He is a powermad tyrant
of whom it may be said that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts
absolutely.
Conclusion: The compound name JHVH EL, translated as LORD God, is a
false god. Whenever it appears in the Torah, or elsewhere, its real
intent has already been telegraphed in the Biblical verses quoted
above – its intent is to deceive and deprive mankind by persecuting
its true advocate. The irony is that only those who want to be
deceived will be deceived – those who want to know the truth of G-D
can find it hidden ever so slightly behind the gossamer veil. Simply
discard the false formation, JHVH EL, and the entire archetype of all
the other names of G-D stands revealed. The true name of G-D that
unifies all the others is JHVSA ALHJM, or JEHOSHUA ELOHIM. JEHOSHUA
MOSHIACH is the G-D of love.
40 DAYS IN THE WILDERNESS – ATROCITIES BY THE “LORD God.”
1. Offered an alliance of marriage with the royal family of the
Hivites, Jacob's sons convince the men of a town to get circumcised.
While the men are recovering, Jacob's sons slaughter them, loot the
town of goods and cattle, and carry off all the women and children as
slaves (Genesis 34:1-17, 24-31).
2. During the sojourn in Egypt: Despite Egyptian expertise in
medicine, Jewish midwives are better and achieve higher live birth
rate; Pharaoh fears demographic imbalance. Ignoring that females bear
babies, not males, Pharaoh orders midwives to kill newly born Hebrew
males (Exodus 1:15-22). Midwives disobey and make excuses to Pharaoh.
Decades later, LORD God strikes back, allowing Pharaoh to live but
killing all the firstborn of Egypt (Exodus 12:12-14). LORD God orders
that His justice be commemorated as "an ordinance for ever." This is
Passover.
3. Three thousand naked golden calf worshippers massacred. "Thus saith
the LORD God of Israel … slay every man his brother, and every man his
companion, and every man his neighbour." After the event, Moses
praises them for killing their own sons and brothers. (Exodus
32:25-29)
4. LORD God opens the earth and swallows up Korah, Dathan, Abiram, and
their tents, their wives, and little ones. Another 250 men burned to
death. All killed for accusing Moses of taking on airs and graces, and
raising questions about the quality of his leadership. (Numbers
16:1-3, 23-35)
5. LORD God sends a plague and kills 14,700 Israelites for blaming
Moses and Aaron for their handling of the Korah problem (Numbers
16:41-49). Plague halted by Aaron burning incense.
6. Balaam prophecies Hebrews will exterminate Moabites, children of
Sheth; Edom, Seir; Amalek, Kenites, Asshur, Eber (Numbers 24:17-25)
7. LORD God orders, through Moses, the extermination of the male
Midianites and their five kings. (Numbers 31:7-12). Why was
extermination ordered? After Hebrew men fornicated with Midianite
women, they caught a venereal disease and 24,000 died (Numbers 25).
The Midianites had sheltered Moses when he fled from Egypt, and they
gave Moses his first wife, Zipporah, who bore him his first son.
(Exodus 2:15-22) Were Moses' benefactors and in-laws among those
slaughtered?
8. The Midianite women and children are taken captive. Later, Moses
orders that they be murdered, but spares the little virgin girls so
they can be used as concubines (Numbers 31:13-18, 32-35). The Talmud
Sages use these verses to justify grown men having sexual intercourse
with little girls, three years old and younger. See Sex with Children
by Talmud Rules.
9. LORD God orders depopulation and destruction of civilization in the
Promised Land (Numbers 33:50-56); religious imagery and art work must
also be destroyed.
10. LORD God commands the Hebrews to "utterly destroy" the seven
nations that are in the Promised Land, "nor shew mercy unto them." In
addition, the Hebrews must "destroy" everything of those cultures
(Deuteronomy 7:1-6).
11. LORD God orders death for the prophet, the dreamer of dreams, and
he who performs miracles — if he tries to convert Hebrews to a new
faith (Deuteronomy 13:1-5).
12. LORD God orders every Israelite to kill "thy brother … or thy son,
or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as
thine own soul" if they stray from LORD God worship. "… Thine hand
shall be first upon him to put him to death …" (Deuteronomy 13:6-11).
Compare to ideas expressed in the Declaration of Independence and the
Bill of Rights.
13. LORD God blames "children of Belial" for seducing Israelites to
other religions, and orders the massacre of seduced cities
(Deuteronomy 13:12-18).
14. LORD God orders extermination of the Amaleks (Deuteronomy
25:17-19); "… thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under
heaven; thou shalt not forget it."
15. LORD God orders Hebrews to exterminate the people of Jericho
(Joshua 6:1-2, 20-24); "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the
city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass,
with the edge of the sword."
16. LORD God orders extermination the inhabitants of Ai and their king
(Joshua 8:1-2, 18-29); Twelve thousand killed. "And Joshua burnt Ai,
and made it an heap for ever, even a desolation unto this day."
17. The Hebrews take captive the five Amorite kings, torture them, and
hang their bodies from trees. (Joshua 10:22-27)
18. LORD God orders the Hebrews to attack and utterly destroy a
multitude of cities, and kill all the inhabitants. (Joshua 10:28-43).
19. LORD God orders extermination of Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites,
Perizzites, Jebusites, Hivites, and their kings; horses crippled and
left to die (Joshua 11:1-9)
20. LORD God orders extermination of the Hazorites, the people of
Goshen and Baalgad, the Anakims (Joshua 11: 10-23); "And they smote
all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly
destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor
with fire."
21. LORD God gives military victory to Jephthah in return for the
promise of a human sacrifice. As fate would have it, the victim turns
out to be Jephthah's beloved daughter, his only child, but he performs
the sacrifice as promised. (Judges 11:30-40)
22. LORD God sends Hebrew tribe of Judah against the Hebrew tribe of
Benjamin; Judah loses 22,000 men (Judges 20:15-21)
23. LORD God sends the other Hebrew tribes against the Hebrew tribe of
Benjamin; The Hebrews lose 18,000 men (Judges 20:23-25)
24. LORD God continues to send the non-Benjamin Hebrews against the
Benjamin Hebrews: the remaining 25,000 Benjamin Hebrew men-at-arms are
killed, and all their elders, women, children, and cattle. Only 600
Benjamin Hebrews escape the slaughter. (Judges 20:28, 35-37, 46-48).
25. The Hebrews regret the slaughter of the Benjamites, and slaughter
the people of Jabesh Gilead because they did not participate: they
kill all the men, women, children, saving only 400 virgins for
surviving Benjamites (Judges 21:3-12). King James Version dares not
call it rape.
26. Not enough brides for Benjamites; Hebrews arrange for rape of the
Hebrew daughters of Shiloh (Judges 21:20-23).
27. LORD God AGAIN orders extermination of Amaleks. The incident to be
avenged is the Amalek attack on Moses' expedition, more than 250 years
earlier (1 Samuel 15:1-8, 32-33); "Now go and smite Amalek, and
utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both
man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
28. Though King Saul does LORD God's vengeance against the Amaleks, he
fails in the details. He has kept King Agag alive. LORD God is angry
and the prophet Samuel is angry. Samuel goes to the battlefield,
summons King Agag, and personally cuts him to pieces. (1 Samuel
15:9-11, 32-33)
29. David slaughters Philistines and mutilates the corpses, taking
foreskins as trophies (1 Samuel 18:25-27). This is love, not war —
David wanted the king's daughter in marriage.
30. David exterminates the Geshurites, the Gezrites, Amaleks,
Jerahmeelites, and Kenites (1 Samuel 27:8-11).
31. Characterized as a seasonal sport ("at the time that kings go out
to battle"), King David and Joab conquer the cities of the Ammon. King
David dismembers the captives with blunt instruments (1 Chronicles
20:1-3) "And he … cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and
with axes."
32. LORD God is displeased with the dynasty of Baasha. By way of the
Prophet Jehu, LORD God sends word that Baasha's dynasty will be
forcefully terminated, and his family will be eaten by dogs and birds.
(1 Kings 16:1-4)
33. King Asa, descendent of Baasha, is now king. While he is getting
drunk one day, Zimri, a leading military officer, attacks and kills
him. Zimri makes himself king and kills all the males in the family of
Baasha, doing the work of LORD God. His reign lasts seven days. (1
Kings 16:8-15)
34. The evil King Ahab is dead but the evil Queen Jezebel yet lives.
The new king, anointed of LORD God, arranges to have Queen Jezebel
thrown from a window, whereupon he drives his chariot over her. He
leaves the body there to be eaten by dogs. Only her skull, her feet,
and the palms of her hands remain. (2 Kings 9:30-37)
35. King Jehu requests the elders of Jezreel to kill all 70 of Ahab's
sons. It is done, and their heads are transported in baskets and left
outside the city gates. Then Jehu kills all that remain of the house
of Ahab in Jezreel: all Ahab's men, his kinfolk, and his priests,
until none remain. (2 Kings 10:1-11)
36. King Jehu encounters the late King Ahaziah's brothers on the road.
He captures them and kills them all in a pit because they are related
to the dead king. (2 Kings 10:12-14)
37. King Jehu goes to Samaria and kills all the allies of Ahab and his
dynasty, according to LORD God's instructions. Then he makes a public
announcement that he will be serving the idol Baal, and calls to him
all Baal's prophets and priests. Meanwhile, Jehu plans treachery, for
when all the servants of Baal are gathered, Jehu has them killed. (2
Kings 10:15-25)
38. Menahem butchers Tiphsahites and rips open stomachs of pregnant
women (2 Kings 15:14-17) Menahem is bad, but LORD God allows him to
rule for ten years without opening up the earth and swallowing him.
Ripping open the bellies of pregnant woman is not as offensive to LORD
God as murmuring against Moses. See Numbers 16:1-3, 23-35.
39. Mordecai, a prominent Jew in the capital city of the Persian
Empire, creates a bad situation by publicly insulting and challenging
Haman, Grand Vizier (Esther 3). Mordecai and his cousin, Queen Esther
secretly Jewish, win out in palace politics. As a result, the Jews of
the Empire slaughter more than 75,000 powerless Persians in a two-day
bloodbath (Esther 8). See The Essential Purim.
40. LORD God's prophecy: The people of Jerusalem will be massacred:
(Ezekiel 9:4-11) "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little
children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark;
and begin at my sanctuary."
THE CLEAR JUXTAPOSITION OF THE TRUE AND THE FALSE
New Testament
Mark 3:1 And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man
there which had a withered hand.
3:2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath
day; that they might accuse him.
3:3 And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand
forth.
3:4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath
days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their
peace.
3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being
grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man,
Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was
restored whole as the other.
Old Testament
Numbers 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the
wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses
and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it had not been declared what
should be done to him.
35 And the LORD said unto Moses: ‘The man shall surely be put to
death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the
camp.’
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned
him with stones, and he died, as the LORD commanded Moses.
Exodus 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore, for it is holy unto
you; every one that profaneth it shall surely be put to death; for
whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from
among his people.
Adonis
<saint...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:853d6dca-6dbe-40be...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
On May 16, 10:07 pm, panamfl...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On May 16, 11:56 pm, saint7pe...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
> > Sometimes God remains occult, only to reappear when He wants, not when
> > you want.
>>
>> I have heard so many of you claim such nonsense that it has become a
>> cliche. Do you not realize that if this creature has the knowledge and
>> power you claim it does, then behavior like that is a sign of
>> neurosis? Your god, if it exists, does not deserve "worship". It needs
>> therapy.
>Not my God. What you say IS true of the JHVH EL of the Old
>Testament. I have been trying very hard to find out who and what He
>is.
According to the bible the god of the OT is the same as the god of the NT. So
your god is "the JHVH EL of the Old
Testament."
<big snip>
saint...@hotmail.com
> <saint7pe...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
So that we have time to grow in our occult knowledge of Him/Her.
saint...@hotmail.com
> <saint7pe...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
That is a false impression, which you cannot support. Try giving
citations to prove your point if you want to find out the truth about
the matter. I have cited passages above that prove just the opposite
of your conclusion.
Adonis
<saint...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:921afdb2-906d-482f...@q24g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Ohhh.....................I see......thank you. Do we use the cone of silence in
getting to know it?
saint...@hotmail.com
> <saint7pe...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:921afdb2-906d-482f...@q24g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On May 16, 10:15 pm, "Adonis" <zerocalor...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >> <saint7pe...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:568fb348-26e3-4250...@c19g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> >> On May 16, 9:35 pm, Douglas Berry <penguin_...@mindOBVIOUSspring.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> > On Thu, 15 May 2008 04:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Phoenix
> >> > <phoenixhasri...@yahoo.com.au> carved the following into the hard
> >> > stone of alt.atheism
>
> >> > >On May 15, 9:43 pm, "Winsome" <Wins...@work.net> wrote:
>
> >> > >> Ridiculous!
>
> >> > >> The truth is simply this: The 'greatest single cause of Atheism in the
> >> > >> world
> >> > >> today' is the utterly basic fact that *you haven't got a god to show
> >> > >> us*.
> > >>Sometimes God remains occult, only to reappear when He wants, not when
> > >>you want.
>
> > >Why would this god want to be clandestine?
> >So that we have time to grow in our occult knowledge of Him/Her.
>
> Ohhh.....................I see......thank you. Do we use the cone of silence in
> getting to know it?
Cop out. When we get down to brass tacks, you are a pathogenic liar.
Why didn't I guess that?
Adonis
<saint...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:29b8e582-b71b-4990...@w34g2000prm.googlegroups.com....
First off would you kindly set your options to indent the original text with >
when replying, this way people can see the progression of the conversation.
Your "citing" prove nothing. They are only opinions based on a particular
religious flavor. If you check the the links provided you will see that other
christian groups teach that god is both the god of the OT and NT. The teaching
is that jesus is god.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/One-Ch4.htm
http://www.apuritansmind.com/Apologetics/McMahonJesusIsGod.htm
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t005.html
http://mb-soft.com/public/godotnt.html
http://www.thewhyman.jesusanswers.com/contact.html
saint...@hotmail.com
I am not interested in third person arguments. Nothing inside your
own head? Just as I thought. Now piss off.
Adonis
<saint...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e15321f5-ff26-44e6...@w1g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Cop out? Where did I lie? If that's your guess, can I assume you have a
deductive reasoning problem or do you have no humor in your body? Relax, it's
all good.
saint...@hotmail.com
You talk like those of whom we were speaking. The old switcheroo is
your weapon of choice. Just turn everything into its diametrical
opposite. You are not worthy of debate, or capable of it. You are
late for sinagogue. Don't forget your beanie.
Adonis
<saint...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:573a3451-76ac-424c...@w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
(you)
I am not interested in third person arguments. Nothing inside your
own head? Just as I thought. Now piss off.
(me)
You are exactly the reason atheism exists. Religious bigots that have the "my
way or your dead mentality". If you have not noticed the Crusades are over. The
real question is, if you feel that the god of the NT is not the same as the god
of the OT, why do you cite OT scripture in your post?
saint...@hotmail.com
Close, but no cigar. Your Judaic religion is the reason your atheism
exists. You want to drag down all religion with your failed
religion. No dice. I am rising to the skies everyday in the
contemplation of my authentic LORD G-D.
The last part of my post compares New T to Old T, the way of Life to
the way of Death. Read it or go to hell and stay there for a long,
long time.