A Question about The Book of Revelations
Robert J B Wilson
In the first verse of Revelations, it is written, in the KJV at least,
The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave unto
him, to shew unto his servants things which must
shortly come to pass;
Now, considering that this was written some 1500+ years ago, surely any
reasonable interpretation of the word 'shortly' has long been exceeded.
So why does anybody bother with what is obviously an outdated fantasy?
RJBW
Therion Ware
I believe it was originally thought that the 2nd coming would take
place prior to the death of the last disciple.
-- Rgds
------ ------
Hell is a city much like Dis, and it's Pandemonium,
for why, "this is Hell, nor am I out of it".
------
Keystroke
On 29 Mar 1997 05:46:53 GMT, bh...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Robert J B
Wilson) wrote:
>In the first verse of Revelations, it is written, in the KJV at least,
>
> The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave unto
> him, to shew unto his servants things which must
> shortly come to pass;
>Now, considering that this was written some 1500+ years ago, surely any
>reasonable interpretation of the word 'shortly' has long been exceeded.
The admonitions that follow - from chapter one through and including
the end of chapter three - were the things that were to shortly come
to pass. The things stated from the beginning of chapter 4 through
the end of the book were 'things which must be hereafter'.
The word 'hereafter' doesn't contain the same immediacy of the word
'shortly'. One other thing that needs clarification is the word
'prophecy'. It is prophetic to pronounce future events, but it is
also profetic to pronounce admonitions from God for present-day
edification. The words proficied in chapters one through three are of
the kind of admonitions from God for (then) present-day edification.
It is presumptious to take scripture out of context. Doing so is the
source of much error.
Christopher J Freeman
In article <5hiacd$o...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
bh...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Robert J B Wilson) wrote:
>
>In the first verse of Revelations, it is written, in the KJV at least,
>
> The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave unto
> him, to shew unto his servants things which must
> shortly come to pass;
>
>Now, considering that this was written some 1500+ years ago, surely any
>reasonable interpretation of the word 'shortly' has long been exceeded.
>
>RJBW
>
Well, the problem is that this book is so filled with imagery and ambiguity,
it's hard figure out exactly what it means. As far as I am concerned. it is
not a road map for the end of the world. It made sense in the time in which
it was written (the reason why it was included in the bible). It has been
re-interpreted every generation to fit events happening at the time. This
happens because the meaning is far from obvious, and don't ask me cos I really
could not say. For christians to think that this prohecy was intended for
them, today is arrogant and self-centred as far as I am concerned. But that
goes along with the whole Jesus in your heart bit anyway, how can God make my
life wonderful. Revelation is like any other book in the bible, it makes
sense in the context in which it was written. As far as I am concerned, it
should be treated as other prophetic books are, what not to do. Old Testament
prophecies are ususally warnings that God is pissed because the Isrealites
were treating each other like shit. I think that Revelation should be treated
in the same way, cos when the "end of the world" idea gets outta hand, we have
tragedy's like Heaven's Gate. Hope that makes some sense...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher J Freeman
Jay
Robert J B Wilson wrote:
>
> In the first verse of Revelations, it is written, in the KJV at least,
>
> The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave unto
> him, to shew unto his servants things which must
> shortly come to pass;
>
> Now, considering that this was written some 1500+ years ago, surely any
> reasonable interpretation of the word 'shortly' has long been exceeded.
>
> So why does anybody bother with what is obviously an outdated fantasy?
> RJBW
I can't help but think that there probably has been several times
between revelations and now that xtians have thought it was THE END.
The thing that has me frightened is this. Never before, or at least
since the days of the bible or the black plague, has there been so much
furvore and absolute talk about these being the days of THE END. It
seems to me that the armagedon will have to happen in the year 2000
because the xtians won't let it NOT happen. They are so sure that THEY
will bring on any sort of END TIMES themselves. It only seems logical.
The question is, where do rational people hide while these nuts are
running wild in the streets?
Dave Frank
kinda off subject but an interesting idea none the less. That
revelations actually is about the end of the christian religion and not
the end of the world. The end of the christian religion would be the end
of that "world" in a sense and a new ideology would come and take its
palce just as the egyptian, and greek religions have died out. Sorry I
dont have any quote's or any evidnece for this idea but it was presented
to me two years ago and it was to me an interesting idea to ponder. Im
posting this idea to get some feedback hopefully on people's ideas on
the idea.
Jay
I know that it isn't an original idea however it is one that seemed to
just occure to me while reading the original post. It seems that the
xtians hate to be proven wrong and look for "signs" anywhere they can.
Frankly the whole thing scares the crap out of me.
Stephen
Jay wrote:
> I can't help but think that there probably has been several times
> between revelations and now that xtians have thought it was THE END.
The most convincing time was probably when Atilla was wrecking Rome. Everyone
was convinced that Atilla was the antichrist and those were the bad days talked about
in Revelations.
Anyone who reads the bible will know that revalations is goofy, as god promised
never to destroy the world again after the flood in Gen 8:20-22. Just give a piece of
paper with that passage to the next group of Jehova's witnesses that bug you.
a a
In article <5hoshe$db0...@watstar.uwaterloo.ca> CJFR...@ARTSU2.uwaterloo.ca (Christopher J Freeman) writes:
>In article <5hiacd$o...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
>>
>>In the first verse of Revelations, it is written, in the KJV at least,
>>
>> The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave unto
>> him, to shew unto his servants things which must
>> shortly come to pass;
>>
>>Now, considering that this was written some 1500+ years ago, surely any
>>reasonable interpretation of the word 'shortly' has long been exceeded.
>>
>>So why does anybody bother with what is obviously an outdated fantasy?
>>RJBW
>>
excuse me, but i think the Bible answers this itself quite well:
2 Peter 2:8-10
8. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with
the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that
all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which
the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt
with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be
burned up.
-end quote-
compare a mere few thousand years to eternity.
Greg Speck put it this way:
Take a solid granite block 100 miles long, 100 miles wide, and 100 miles
high. Now encase it in a huge dome, so it isn't affected by weather. Take
a parakeet to that dome, open the door, and let the parakeet in to sharpen
its beak on the granite block for ten seconds.
After ten seconds, take the bird and leave. Wait one thousand years, then
let the little bird sharpen its beak for ten seconds, and then depart. Keep
doing that at one-thousand-year intervals.
When that parakeet has finally worn that block down to nothing, one
moment will have passed in eternity.
-end quote-
Obviously, God is concerned about your afterlife, and he is waiting
for the right time, but few will be prepared for it, and no one will
be expecting it. A few thousand years is nothing.
Capella
a a wrote:
>
> In article <5hoshe$db0...@watstar.uwaterloo.ca> CJFR...@ARTSU2.uwaterloo.ca (Christopher J Freeman) writes:
> >In article <5hiacd$o...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
> > bh...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Robert J B Wilson) wrote:
> >>
> >>In the first verse of Revelations, it is written, in the KJV at least,
> >>
> >> The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave unto
> >> him, to shew unto his servants things which must
> >> shortly come to pass;
> >>
> >>Now, considering that this was written some 1500+ years ago, surely any
> >>reasonable interpretation of the word 'shortly' has long been exceeded.
> >>
> >>So why does anybody bother with what is obviously an outdated fantasy?
> >>RJBW
> >>
>
> excuse me, but i think the Bible answers this itself quite well:
>
> 2 Peter 2:8-10
>
> 8. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with
> the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
> 9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;
> but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that
> all should come to repentance.
> 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which
> the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt
> with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be
> burned up.
> -end quote-
(Mat 16:28 NRSV) Truly I tell you, there are **some standing here**
who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in
his kingdom."
Jesus thought the 2nd coming would be during that generation.
(1 Th 4:16 NRSV) For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with
the archangel's call and with the sound of God's trumpet, will descend
from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
(1 Th 4:17 NRSV) **Then we who are alive**, who are left, will be
caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the
air; and so we will be with the Lord forever.
This clearly shows that Paul also was expecting the 2nd coming to be
during their lifetime, which obviously *did not* happen.
In the book of Revelations John imagined something great was going to
happen ***shortly*** in his lifetime, which it didn't happen either.
The bible fails 3 times here.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Capella #5
Dallas, Texas
There was a time when religion ruled the world. It is
known as The Dark Ages
- Ruth Hurmence Green, author
Robert J B Wilson
a a (aaaaa@a.a) writes:
> In article <5hoshe$db0...@watstar.uwaterloo.ca> CJFR...@ARTSU2.uwaterloo.ca (Christopher J Freeman) writes:
>>In article <5hiacd$o...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
>> bh...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Robert J B Wilson) wrote:
>>>
>>>In the first verse of Revelations, it is written, in the KJV at least,
>>>
>>> The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave unto
>>> him, to shew unto his servants things which must
>>> shortly come to pass;
>>>
>>>Now, considering that this was written some 1500+ years ago, surely any
>>>reasonable interpretation of the word 'shortly' has long been exceeded.
>>>
>>>So why does anybody bother with what is obviously an outdated fantasy?
>>>RJBW
>>>
>
> excuse me, but i think the Bible answers this itself quite well:
>
> 2 Peter 2:8-10
>
> 8. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with
> the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
> 9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;
> but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that
> all should come to repentance.
> 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which
> the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt
> with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be
> burned up.
> -end quote-
>
> compare a mere few thousand years to eternity.
>
> Greg Speck put it this way:
[clip a lot of irrelevancy]
> A few thousand years is nothing.
To your hypothetical deity, maybe. To real people, you're dead wrong.
When you talk to people you do so in their terms; to suddenly, without
warning, speak from a divine, eternal viewpoint and use human words with
non-human meanings is dishonest; probably sheer falsehood.
Besides, did not JC himself once prophesy that his then listeners would
not all be dead before he returned in all his glory? (sorry, lost the ref.)
Does not Matt.24:34 predict that the generation living in his time would
not all be dead before his second coming?
Answers in the Bible vary, depending on where you look!
RJBW
Robert J B Wilson
I don't usually publish email conversations, but since my answer to one
correspondent was returned by the deadly mail daemon marked 'user unknown'
I feel justified in publishing this. Maybe the user will see it and fix
the problem she has with the email system.
This is the letter that was returned.
Date: Fri Apr 4 21:53:56 1997
To: llak...@kozi.com
Subject: Re: why bother
Cc:
Reply-To: bh...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
You write:
>You will find out why we bother when Jesus returns to the Earth
>and the dead in Him rise and those In Him that remain will be
>caught up together with them. The brightness of HIS coming will
>destroy all evil.
>God is the Highest Power that there is. Look at the universe.If
>you really want to know if it is true, you must ask God with
>all your heart and never give up and He will tell you, No one
>else will need to when your answer comes straight from the
>MASTER. It will be so powerful, you will be out there preaching
>like we are.
I reply:
You failed to answer the first question - why has it taken so long
given the first verse in Revelations?
Also, didn't JC himself prophesy that he would return before all
those listening at that moment were dead?
Mat.24:34 is a further failed prophecy; that generation of his time
has long passed away without JC's predictions having come to pass.
RJBW
Kyle Dillon
Capella <cap...@airmail.net> wrote in article
<33451B...@airmail.net>...
> who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in
> his kingdom."
>
> Jesus thought the 2nd coming would be during that generation.
>
13:32)
This verse refers to the Pentecost, which occurred after the death of
Judas. The kindgom came literally, and the King came spiritually.
>
> (1 Th 4:16 NRSV) For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with
> the archangel's call and with the sound of God's trumpet, will descend
> from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
>
> (1 Th 4:17 NRSV) **Then we who are alive**, who are left, will be
> caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the
> air; and so we will be with the Lord forever.
>
> This clearly shows that Paul also was expecting the 2nd coming to be
> during their lifetime, which obviously *did not* happen.
>
How does this show that Paul expected the Second Coming to be during their
lifetime? "We" refers to the whole church; the saints of the past,
present, and future. "Alive" is obviously in contrast to "dead in Christ."
Think about it.
> In the book of Revelations John imagined something great was going to
> happen ***shortly*** in his lifetime, which it didn't happen either.
>
Wasn't that just answered? "One day is with the Lord as a thousand years,
and a thousand years as one day." The Greek word for "shortly" is also
translated as "swiftly" or "in quick succession."
The events in Revalation began to unfold soon after John wrote about them.
>
> The bible fails 3 times here.
Capella, why do you hate God? Didn't you used to be a Christian?
Michael Smith
Some Fundie wrote: >>You will find out why we bother when Jesus returns to
the Earth and the dead in Him rise and those In Him that remain will be
>>caught up together with them. The brightness of HIS coming will
>RJBW replied: You failed to answer the first question - why has it taken so
long given the first verse in Revelations? Also, didn't JC himself prophesy
that he would return before all those listening at that moment were dead?
>Mat.24:34 is a further failed prophecy; that generation of his time
>has long passed away without JC's predictions having come to pass.
[[Robert: you're correct about those prophecies. Xians ignore them or come
up with some specious explanation. We atheists have to wonder how the Holy
Editors manage to leave these whoppers in the Bible...esp. Christ's flat
statement that "this generation will not pass" before he comes back, etc.
To answer "why it's taking so long," we have to delve into the muck of the
Fundamentalist belief system (yech! don't get any on you!). There are
basically 3 schools of thought on Revelation: pre-millenial, post
millennial, and amillenial. More of that "infallible Biblical consistency"
we're always hearing about--these people can't even agree on their core
beliefs.
The person who answered you is a pre-millennialist. PreM's believe they
will be "raptured" any day now--i.e., the world will end and true believers
will be suddenly and bodily sky-hooked up to Jesus. Then Jesus will come
back to earth and establish the Millennium, reigning for 1000 years of
peace, justice and general warm-fuzzy stuff.
Post-millenialists are those scary Biblio-Nazis who are trying to take over
the U.S. government. Pat Robertson is the best--make that worst--example.
They believe all the horror-show stuff in Revelation will literally come
true--war, pestilence, plague, seven-headed dragons roaming around, two
hours of John Tesh on prime time every night, etc., etc.
PostM's have a whole `nother definition of "Millenium:" Christians must
take over the world and rule for 1,000 years, after which Jesus will return.
And guess which specific branch of Christianity has been chosen to rule?
Hint: it ain't the Unitarians.
Amillenialists believe Revelation is mainly symbolic. Since they lack the
pizazz of the PreM's and PostM's, nobody seems to pay much attention to
them.
Traditionally, Fundamentalists were almost all pre-millenialists. It has
only been in the last 30 or years, with the fusion of Fundamentalist
Christianity and right-wing politics, that post-millenialism has become more
popular. Robertson and other political preachers, like the truly scary R.J.
Rushdoony, have convinced Fundamentalist Christians that Jesus will only
come back when they rule the world for 1000 years in a political
sense...starting with that fine Christian nation the U.S.A., of course.]]
MKing77043
Yes Jesus did say that some would not taste death before they see the Son
of man coming in his kingdom. (Mat 16:28) And they did. If you read on in
Matthew 17:1-9 it tells you just what happened.
And read Matthew 24 and 2 Timothy 3: 1-7 to see what signs to look for in
the last days. Does it look familiar. 2 Tim 3:5 is especially relevant to
today. Just because a man says he is a christian does not mean he is
following the instruction of Christ or God.
If you really read the Bible, (a good translation, not King James) it does
not fail. That's not to say it's easy to understand, but it all fits
together if you look carefully.
A question. I have the greatest respect for beliefs, but why do atheists
have to be so angry? Perhaps they really know they are wrong deep down.
regards
MK
Stix
MKing77043 posted the following to alt.atheism,
<snip>
>A question. I have the greatest respect for beliefs, but why do atheists
>have to be so angry? Perhaps they really know they are wrong deep down.
Hmm, you claim to have great respect for our beliefs, yet in the very next
sentence you tell us not only that our beliefs are wrong, but that we also
know our beliefs are wrong.
This implies that we are both wrong AND willfully stupid, yet it's YOUR
silly biblical fantasy that has no support for it whatsoever. No reason
offered by you to believe your fantasy, just the bald faced implication, on
our own newsgroup, that you're right and that we know it.
And you wonder why atheists often seem angry?
<shakes head in disbelief at bleater stupidity>
Stix
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"Mysticism is a disease of the mind."
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
t...@acsu.buffalo.edu
On 12 Apr 1997, MKing77043 wrote:
>
> Yes Jesus did say that some would not taste death before they see the Son
> of man coming in his kingdom. (Mat 16:28) And they did. If you read on in
> Matthew 17:1-9 it tells you just what happened.
WRONG! The kingdom has NOT arrived and it never will. The second
coming has not occured! What the hell are you talking about??!!!
> If you really read the Bible, (a good translation, not King James) it does
> not fail. That's not to say it's easy to understand, but it all fits
> together if you look carefully.
>
An "original" Bible does not exist and never has. Thousands of
manuscripts exist which are copies of the original texts. How do you know
that one copy is better than another or that one translation is better?
How can you make that judgement? Are you some sort of expert?
The Bible contains numerous contradictions, inaccuracies, etc., it does
not all fit together! Have you ever "carefully" read the New Testament
and seen all the blatant contradictions!!
> A question. I have the greatest respect for beliefs, but why do atheists
> have to be so angry? Perhaps they really know they are wrong deep down.
>
I cant speak for all atheists but what gets me angry is that you people
chant the same phrases and slogans over and over and somehow think this
means that you are right and have a monopoly on the truth.
Dont tell me what I believe, you are an arrogant condescending patronizing
brain washed moron.
> regards
>
> MK
>
>
Todd Matthew Koson
MKing77043 posted the following to alt.atheism,
: <snip>
: A question. I have the greatest respect for beliefs, but why do atheists
: have to be so angry? Perhaps they really know they are wrong deep down.
Well, in a nutshell, its assholes like yourself who "respect my beliefs"
then snidely tell me how "wrong" I am. If you are really curious for an
answer - stop providing the bait and learn how to conduct yourself in a
public forum.
BigBang
On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:31:33 -0400, t...@acsu.buffalo.edu wrote:
>
>
>
>
>On 12 Apr 1997, MKing77043 wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes Jesus did say that some would not taste death before they see the Son
>> of man coming in his kingdom. (Mat 16:28) And they did. If you read on in
>> Matthew 17:1-9 it tells you just what happened.
>
> WRONG! The kingdom has NOT arrived and it never will. The second
>coming has not occured! What the hell are you talking about??!!!
>
>
>> If you really read the Bible, (a good translation, not King James) it does
>> not fail. That's not to say it's easy to understand, but it all fits
>> together if you look carefully.
>>
>
> An "original" Bible does not exist and never has. Thousands of
>manuscripts exist which are copies of the original texts. How do you know
>that one copy is better than another or that one translation is better?
>How can you make that judgement? Are you some sort of expert?
>The Bible contains numerous contradictions, inaccuracies, etc., it does
>not all fit together! Have you ever "carefully" read the New Testament
>and seen all the blatant contradictions!!
>
>> A question. I have the greatest respect for beliefs, but why do atheists
>> have to be so angry? Perhaps they really know they are wrong deep down.
>>
>
> I cant speak for all atheists but what gets me angry is that you people
>chant the same phrases and slogans over and over and somehow think this
>means that you are right and have a monopoly on the truth.
>Dont tell me what I believe, you are an arrogant condescending patronizing
>brain washed moron.
>
>> regards
>>
>> MK
>>
>>
>
I think some may feel anger for being lied to. I remember how I felt
when I found out about Santa Claus, and God is a so much bigger lie.