Orthodox Easter Holy Fire in Jerusalem - a miracle?
Gray Cloud
I'm asking as an agnostic:
Is there scientific evidence for the holy fire (holy light) that
appears without an apparent physical cause every orthodox Easter in
the in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem?
The event is described in several places on the Web, including
http://www.holyfire.org/eng/index2.htm and
http://www.holylight.gr/agiofos/holyli.html
Unfortunately, the less than perfect English on these sites discredits
them somewhat. On the other hand, they present lots of photographs of
the event and even some video sequences.
Why is this miracle so little known in the Western world?
The language on the site IS boastful and uses many Easter Orthodox
terms, yet such a "steady" miracle demands certain attention. I know,
"the majority says" is not an argument. But, "is there something
about" this?
I'm quoting from http://www.holylight.gr/agiofos/holyli.html:
"3. HOW THE HOLY LIGHT COMES OUT: Inside the Holy Sepulchre the
Patriarch prays kneeling and reading the special wishes requesting our
Lord Jesus Christ to send His Holy Light as a gift of sanctification
for the people. And in the absolute quietness at the hour when the
patriarch prays a wheeze is heard and almost simultaneously blue and
white lightnings of Holy Light penetrate from everywhere, as though
millions of photographic flashes turn on embracing the walls and all
the lamps light up miraculously. In the Holy Sepulchre the torches the
Patriarch holds while he prays turn on also by the Holy Light. The
crowd bursts out in cheers while teardrops of joy and faith run from
the eyes of the people.
For a few minutes the Holy Light doesn't have the attributes of fire.
This happens the first minutes after the patriarch comes out of the
Holy Sepulchre and gives the Light to the people. Anyone can touch the
fire of the 33 candles and he doesn't burn. After 33 minutes the flame
is normal."
Quote from http://www.holyfire.org/eng/velich.html:
"Holy Fire is the most renowned miracle in the world of Eastern
Orthodoxy. It takes place at the same time, in the same manner, in the
same place every single year for centuries. No other miracle is known
to occur so regularly and so steadily over time."
Mike Painter
"Gray Cloud" <arhma...@writeme.com> wrote in message
news:10ea9e7c.03052...@posting.google.com...
> Hi,
>
> I'm asking as an agnostic:
>
> Is there scientific evidence for the holy fire (holy light) that
> appears without an apparent physical cause every orthodox Easter in
> the in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem?
>
light has changed with the technology of the times.
I'm also willing to bet that no scientific investigation has been or will be
allowed.
If true why would a god of love just do simple stage magic and not grant a
bit more evidence?
dgillesp
(Eastern "Easter") in Jerusalem. Denny
http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Orthodox_Miracles/Pascha_Holy_Light/index.shtml
Emma Pease
From The Daily Telegraph this past April
But the Israeli authorities have good reason to fear another kind of
conflagration this year. Relations between the clergy who preside over
the miracle have been inflamed since last year when the ceremony was
marred by a brawl within the shrine.
Out of sight of the faithful, the two churchmen - the Armenian
participating for the third time, the Greek for the first - fiercely
disagreed on a matter of precedence. Should the Greek patriarch emerge
first with the Holy Fire or the Armenian? Would the Greek or the
Armenian Orthodox community be first to receive the light?
When Patriarch Irineos fought his corner by twice blowing out the
Armenian's candle, the Armenian felt obliged to resort to a shameful
expedient to obtain some Holy Fire.
"In this worst situation I had to use my emergency light, a cigarette
lighter," he later admitted.
(do a google news search on holy light Jerusalem easter for other
articles)
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
Mark K. Bilbo
Don't you love it. This almighty god guy does nothing much more than cheap parlor tricks...
--
Mark K. Bilbo #1423 EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
________________________________________________________________
If their omnipotent, omniscient (so they say) god wants me to
believe in him, then he should know what would prove his
existence to me. He hasn't done so yet, so there is no reason
to believe in him.
[Woden]
Al Klein
posted in alt.atheism:
>I'm also willing to bet that no scientific investigation has been or will be
>allowed.
You're very correct about that.
--
"We should do unto others as we would want them to do unto us. If I were an unborn
fetus I would want others to use force to protect me, therefore using force against
abortionists is *justifiable homocide*."
- "Pro-Life" doctor killer Paul Hill
rukbat at optonline dot net
Josef Balluch
In a message sent 'round the world, Gray Cloud poured fuel on the fire
with the following:
> Hi,
>
> I'm asking as an agnostic:
>
> Is there scientific evidence for the holy fire (holy light) that
> appears without an apparent physical cause every orthodox Easter in
> the in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem?
It seems unlikely that there would be any scientific investigation. The
performance that is put on prior to the appearance of the light
resembles the theatrics of a magician who is about to pull the rabbit
out of the hat: "Nothing up this sleeve, ..... nothing up the other
sleeve .... " This little performance conveys the message that no other
evidence is to be expected or received.
The description of the "fire" seems very much like that of electric
discharge, once called St. Elmo's Fire. Some witnesses to the event
claim that there was a feeling of electricity.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/S/StE1lmosf.asp
...
> Unfortunately, the less than perfect English on these sites discredits
> them somewhat.
Why should it?
...
> Why is this miracle so little known in the Western world?
Because Orthodox Christianity is not the predominant religion.
...
Regards,
Josef
The mysterious is always attractive.
-- Bede Jarret
Levy Oates
wrote:
>Is there scientific evidence for the holy fire (holy light) that
>appears without an apparent physical cause every orthodox Easter in
>the in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem?
I downloaded a realplayer movie of this. Basically, a bishop went into
a hole in the wall and came out with a candle lit. They then lit
everyone else's candles. Some of the people waved their candles
quickly under their chins and miraculously didn't combust.
There were lots of photo flashes going off which resulted in a strange
mystacle blue light. Other strange lights included those on the wall
opposite windows where the sun was shining in. A few fire balls
appeared in inaccessable bits of the church where the congregation
couldn't reach. There were also a few bits that looked like fireworks
going off. Everone was looking around in a state of dazed disbeleif
and holy wonderment. I felt a strange sensation come over me.
Well I don't know about you, but I'm off to my local orthodox church
for a quick prayer to the almighty. Any deity that can do that sort of
stuff has got to be the real thing.
---------
Archdeacom Levy Oates
On behalf of the Prophet Eric Peabody (pbuh)
Basingstoke, England
http://www.angelfire.com/alt/bumblism/
Gray Cloud
> > appears without an apparent physical cause every orthodox Easter in
> > the in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem?
>
> It seems unlikely that there would be any scientific investigation. The
> performance that is put on prior to the appearance of the light
> resembles the theatrics of a magician who is about to pull the rabbit
> out of the hat: "Nothing up this sleeve, ..... nothing up the other
> sleeve .... " This little performance conveys the message that no other
> evidence is to be expected or received.
What if it's just a ritual? Similar, for example, to the preparation
of materials in order to show a hologram. In the case of a hologram,
you wouldn't say there is a "performance" of the technicians who
produce it...
> The description of the "fire" seems very much like that of electric
> discharge, once called St. Elmo's Fire. Some witnesses to the event
> claim that there was a feeling of electricity.
>
> http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/S/StE1lmosf.asp
How do you explain that this alleged electric discharge only happens
when the orthodox patriarch invokes it?
"The appearance of the Holy Light is an event which occurs every year
in front of thousands of visual witnesses. NOBODY CAN DENY IT. On the
contrary, this miracle can reinforce those who have lack of faith."
(http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Orthodox_Miracles/Pascha_Holy_Light/index.shtml)
I do not "want to believe", as they say in the X-Files, but there IS
photografic and video evidence (let's not count the eye witnesses).
How can they be all refuted?
Mike Painter
> > > appears without an apparent physical cause every orthodox Easter in
> > > the in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem?
> >
> > It seems unlikely that there would be any scientific investigation. The
> > performance that is put on prior to the appearance of the light
> > resembles the theatrics of a magician who is about to pull the rabbit
> > out of the hat: "Nothing up this sleeve, ..... nothing up the other
> > sleeve .... " This little performance conveys the message that no other
> > evidence is to be expected or received.
>
> What if it's just a ritual? Similar, for example, to the preparation
> of materials in order to show a hologram. In the case of a hologram,
> you wouldn't say there is a "performance" of the technicians who
> produce it...
It would not even have to be a scientist. I know of an old fraud who would
give that church over one million dollars just to the miracle. The money is
guaruanteed.
The test would be designed by the people of the church.
>
> > The description of the "fire" seems very much like that of electric
> > discharge, once called St. Elmo's Fire. Some witnesses to the event
> > claim that there was a feeling of electricity.
> >
> > http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/S/StE1lmosf.asp
>
> How do you explain that this alleged electric discharge only happens
> when the orthodox patriarch invokes it?
Without a real investigation the answer would be that only the magician can
make the girl disappear.
>
> "The appearance of the Holy Light is an event which occurs every year
> in front of thousands of visual witnesses. NOBODY CAN DENY IT. On the
> contrary, this miracle can reinforce those who have lack of faith."
>
(http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Orthodox_Miracles/Pascha_Holy_Light/index.sht
ml)
>
Just as I don't deny that Teller could speak to me and tell me the card I
picked...
> I do not "want to believe", as they say in the X-Files, but there IS
> photografic and video evidence (let's not count the eye witnesses).
> How can they be all refuted?
Suppose your job as a priest is to save souls.
Suppose that you believe that only through the doctrine of your particular
church can people be saved.
If you believed absolutely that these were real events and that they were
caused by this god.
If the event was real and you were honest wouldn't you do everything you
could to prove it using everything possible?
The reality seems to be that people do believe these things. Then they join
the church, work up through the ranks and find out what buttons to push.
They have to keep their job so the rationalizations is.
"The event is a trick, but it helps people believe and we know they need
help in their faith.."
Josef Balluch
In a message sent 'round the world, Gray Cloud poured fuel on the fire
with the following:
> > > Is there scientific evidence for the holy fire (holy light) that
> > > appears without an apparent physical cause every orthodox Easter in
> > > the in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem?
> >
> > It seems unlikely that there would be any scientific investigation. The
> > performance that is put on prior to the appearance of the light
> > resembles the theatrics of a magician who is about to pull the rabbit
> > out of the hat: "Nothing up this sleeve, ..... nothing up the other
> > sleeve .... " This little performance conveys the message that no other
> > evidence is to be expected or received.
>
> What if it's just a ritual?
Yes. That is what I am saying.
> Similar, for example, to the preparation
> of materials in order to show a hologram. In the case of a hologram,
> you wouldn't say there is a "performance" of the technicians who
> produce it...
I am not suggesting that the light is a trick. As I pointed out, it
could be simply an electric discharge. There are several similarities
between the description of the light and the description of St. Elmo's
Fire.
The purpose of the "performance" before the light is to make it clear
that a "miracle" is going to occur, so people should not bother looking
for any other explanation.
A fairly detailed description of the ritual is found here:
http://www.yalchicago.org/greatmiracle.html
> > The description of the "fire" seems very much like that of electric
> > discharge, once called St. Elmo's Fire. Some witnesses to the event
> > claim that there was a feeling of electricity.
> >
> > http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/S/StE1lmosf.asp
>
> How do you explain that this alleged electric discharge only happens
> when the orthodox patriarch invokes it?
It is not clear that it is under the control of the patriarch. The
performance is simply arranged to give this appearance. As is mentioned
at http://www.yalchicago.org/greatmiracle.html, representatives of other
faiths are present in the event that the light fails to appear for the
patriarch.
http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/St.Pachomius/hvidt-fire.html
The description of the event at the above site indicates that the church
is fairly dark during the event. St. Elmo's fire is not particularly
intense, and is best seen during darkness. The patriarch enters a pitch
black tomb and it takes a few minutes for his vision to adjust. He says
a few prayers, and the light "miraculously" appears. When the patriarch
enters the tomb the remainder of the church is also darkened, so the
light soon becomes visible to the congregation.
> "The appearance of the Holy Light is an event which occurs every year
> in front of thousands of visual witnesses. NOBODY CAN DENY IT. On the
> contrary, this miracle can reinforce those who have lack of faith."
> (http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Orthodox_Miracles/Pascha_Holy_Light/index.shtml)
>
> I do not "want to believe", as they say in the X-Files, but there IS
> photografic and video evidence (let's not count the eye witnesses).
> How can they be all refuted?
No need to refute it. I am saying that the light has a natural
explanation. St. Elmo's Fire was often assumed to be supernatural, as
it's name confirms.
Regards,
Josef
If you eat sausage you are better off not knowing the inner workings of
sausage factories, and if you are a Christian, that of the Christian
church.
-- Rev. Donald Morgan
Gray Cloud
> I am not suggesting that the light is a trick. As I pointed out, it
> could be simply an electric discharge. There are several similarities
> between the description of the light and the description of St. Elmo's
> Fire.
If I understand correctly, you suggest that an electric discharge
similar to St. Elmo's fire CONTINUALLY happens in that (usually lit)
church, but believers only gather at the Orthodox Easter to observe
it. In order for the "holy fire" to be observed, the church is
darkened, so the fire becomes visible.
Interesting.
However, it is still unexplained why, although the fire can light
candles, it doesn't burn human limbs for some time (33 minutes). BTW,
does St. Elmo's fire have the ability to "burn" a candle?
> It is not clear that it is under the control of the patriarch. The
> performance is simply arranged to give this appearance. As is mentioned
> at http://www.yalchicago.org/greatmiracle.html, representatives of other
> faiths are present in the event that the light fails to appear for the
> patriarch.
Quoting from the same source:
"Only the Greek Orthodox Patriarch has the privilege the honor and the
power to make this ceremony. Attempts from the other doctrines to
perform this miracle were made but it was impossible."
Gray Cloud
PS: anyone here *supporting* this miracle?
Nektarios Ioannides, where are you?
Josef Balluch
In a message sent 'round the world, Gray Cloud poured fuel on the fire
with the following:
> Josef Balluch <josef....@sympatico.can> wrote in message news:<MPG.1936d0c1e...@news1.on.sympatico.ca>...
>
> > I am not suggesting that the light is a trick. As I pointed out, it
> > could be simply an electric discharge. There are several similarities
> > between the description of the light and the description of St. Elmo's
> > Fire.
>
> If I understand correctly, you suggest that an electric discharge
> similar to St. Elmo's fire CONTINUALLY happens in that (usually lit)
> church, but believers only gather at the Orthodox Easter to observe
> it. In order for the "holy fire" to be observed, the church is
> darkened, so the fire becomes visible.
>
> Interesting.
I can't say if it a continuous discharge; it may only be a frequent
occurrence. A mentioned at one of the links I supplied, the clerics make
provisions in case the "fire" fails to appear, so it may not be a
continuous event.
> However, it is still unexplained why, although the fire can light
> candles, it doesn't burn human limbs for some time (33 minutes). BTW,
> does St. Elmo's fire have the ability to "burn" a candle?
Given the nature of the discharge, being of fairly low power, I doubt it
could light a candle or burn human skin. Perhaps the discharge sometimes
appears on a candle tip or wick, giving the impression that the candle
is lit by "holy fire".
http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Orthodox_Miracles/Pascha_Holy_Light/index.
shtml
The third and fourth paragraphs at the above link certainly suggest that
candles are being lit by "holy fire".
http://www.holyfire.org/eng/svid_p_Daniil.htm
The narrative at this link also states that the "Holy Light" being
passed from candle to candle is "like no ordinary flame". The statement
is about half way down the page.
And finally, at http://www.yalchicago.org/greatmiracle.html it states
that the "Holy Fire" does not have the attributes of fire for 33
minutes, and does not burn the skin.
Despite a fair amount of searching I haven't found a description of the
transition at 33 minutes.
> > It is not clear that it is under the control of the patriarch. The
> > performance is simply arranged to give this appearance. As is mentioned
> > at http://www.yalchicago.org/greatmiracle.html, representatives of other
> > faiths are present in the event that the light fails to appear for the
> > patriarch.
>
> Quoting from the same source:
>
> "Only the Greek Orthodox Patriarch has the privilege the honor and the
> power to make this ceremony. Attempts from the other doctrines to
> perform this miracle were made but it was impossible."
The sites I checked describe only three failed attempts, and all of them
occurred hundreds of years ago. The source mentioned above does state
that provisions are made in case the light fails to appear, but no
explanation is given as to exactly what takes place if the light does
not appear.
http://www.holyfire.org/eng/svid_p_PokrovskayaS.htm
This link describes an occasion when the "Holy Fire" appeared late.
Regards,
Josef
My view is that if there is no evidence for it, then forget about it.
-- Carl Sagan
Mark K. Bilbo
> However, it is still unexplained why, although the fire can light
> candles, it doesn't burn human limbs for some time (33 minutes).
That's a cheap parlor trick. I've seen atheistic science types do it...
Gray Cloud
> I can't say if it a continuous discharge; it may only be a frequent
> occurrence.
Are there other known cases of St. Elmo's fire frequently appearing
within buildings? IIRC, St. Elmo's fire appears around ship masts
before storms, when the atmosphere is filled with electricity.
> A mentioned at one of the links I supplied, the clerics make
> provisions in case the "fire" fails to appear, so it may not be a
> continuous event.
I didn't find this mention on some of the sites I've searched, can you
please provide the link to it and some words to search for?
> > However, it is still unexplained why, although the fire can light
> > candles, it doesn't burn human limbs for some time (33 minutes). BTW,
> > does St. Elmo's fire have the ability to "burn" a candle?
>
> Given the nature of the discharge, being of fairly low power, I doubt it
> could light a candle or burn human skin.
Still, there are lots of photos showing lit candles and no random
discharges around. http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Orthodox_Miracles/Pascha_Holy_Light/index.shtml
presents such pictures, notably
http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Orthodox_Miracles/Pascha_Holy_Light/4.jpg,
http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Orthodox_Miracles/Pascha_Holy_Light/6.jpg
and
http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Orthodox_Miracles/Pascha_Holy_Light/3.jpg
> Perhaps the discharge sometimes
> appears on a candle tip or wick, giving the impression that the candle
> is lit by "holy fire".
Given the quite random nature of the discharge, it is extremely
unlikely that it would manifest like a flame, and precisely on candle
tips, and for 33 minutes continuously.
> And finally, at http://www.yalchicago.org/greatmiracle.html it states
> that the "Holy Fire" does not have the attributes of fire for 33
> minutes, and does not burn the skin.
>
> Despite a fair amount of searching I haven't found a description of the
> transition at 33 minutes.
Is this a violation of natural laws, which would classify the "Holy
Fire" as a miracle?
Regards,
Gray Cloud
Josef Balluch
In a message sent 'round the world, Gray Cloud poured fuel on the fire
with the following:
> Josef Balluch <josef....@sympatico.can> wrote in message news:<MPG.193754c9f...@news1.on.sympatico.ca>...
>
> > I can't say if it a continuous discharge; it may only be a frequent
> > occurrence.
>
> Are there other known cases of St. Elmo's fire frequently appearing
> within buildings? IIRC, St. Elmo's fire appears around ship masts
> before storms, when the atmosphere is filled with electricity.
St. Elmo's fire was frequently reported on church steeples, which is
close but not necessarily inside the building. There aren't many reports
of St. Elmo's inside buildings, but this is not too surprising. It is
often associated with tall masts and towers, and these sorts of
structures are not common inside buildings. Church steeples do provide
the sort of structure needed, and there is nothing in the nature of
electric discharge which would prevent it from occuring inside as well
as outside a building. If St. Elmo's were a common occurrence inside
buildings then I imagine that it would not be taken as a supernatural
event by some.
St. Elmo's can be generated artificially indoors, which confirms that it
is possible to find it inside.
http://www.epinions.com/content_91991477892
The next link describes some sort of electric discharge seen indoors. Do
a search in the page for "Audrey Rohde".
http://hsv.com/weather/unusual/
This link mentions St. Elmo's appearing inside aircraft:
http://dominicapsn.freeyellow.com/Hazards/Tephra.html
Do a search in the page for St. Elmo's.
> > A mentioned at one of the links I supplied, the clerics make
> > provisions in case the "fire" fails to appear, so it may not be a
> > continuous event.
>
> I didn't find this mention on some of the sites I've searched, can you
> please provide the link to it and some words to search for?
http://www.yalchicago.org/greatmiracle.html
Second paragraph, entitled "Description of the Miracle", last sentence.
> > > However, it is still unexplained why, although the fire can light
> > > candles, it doesn't burn human limbs for some time (33 minutes). BTW,
> > > does St. Elmo's fire have the ability to "burn" a candle?
> >
> > Given the nature of the discharge, being of fairly low power, I doubt it
> > could light a candle or burn human skin.
>
> Still, there are lots of photos showing lit candles and no random
> discharges around. http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Orthodox_Miracles/Pascha_Holy_Light/index.shtml
> presents such pictures, notably
> http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Orthodox_Miracles/Pascha_Holy_Light/4.jpg,
> http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Orthodox_Miracles/Pascha_Holy_Light/6.jpg
> and
> http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Orthodox_Miracles/Pascha_Holy_Light/3.jpg
The fact that lit candles and electric discharge are not seen together
is not surprising, as the low power of the discharge will not be visible
in the brighter glare produced by the candles. This is not sufficient
reason to suggest that the discharge ignites the candles. As I have
pointed out several times, the discharge is of low power and thus not
very hot. The discharge can actually be generated safely from one's
finger tips:
> > Perhaps the discharge sometimes
> > appears on a candle tip or wick, giving the impression that the candle
> > is lit by "holy fire".
>
> Given the quite random nature of the discharge, it is extremely
> unlikely that it would manifest like a flame, and precisely on candle
> tips, and for 33 minutes continuously.
As I pointed out previously, witnesses claim that the Holy Fire is quite
unlike a conventional flame. Electrical discharge is easiest from sharp
points, so I would think a wick could be a good candidate. I see no
reason why a stable discharge could not linger for 33 minutes.
http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weather/elements/stelmo.htm
On this page is the statement: "During those storms the holy body, that
is, to say St. Elmo, appeared to us many times in light...on an
exceedingly dark night on the maintop where he stayed for about two
hours or more for our consolation."
> > And finally, at http://www.yalchicago.org/greatmiracle.html it states
> > that the "Holy Fire" does not have the attributes of fire for 33
> > minutes, and does not burn the skin.
> >
> > Despite a fair amount of searching I haven't found a description of the
> > transition at 33 minutes.
>
> Is this a violation of natural laws, which would classify the "Holy
> Fire" as a miracle?
It doesn't imply a violation. If the Holy Fire is visible for 33 minutes
then this suggests to me that the church remains dark for 33 minutes. At
this point the church is illuminated with regular lamps and candles to
mark the end of the ceremony. The electric discharge then is no longer
seen because of it's rather low power.
Regards,
Josef
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless . . . its
falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to
establish.
-- David Hume
Emma Pease
Balluch wrote:
> As I pointed out previously, witnesses claim that the Holy Fire is quite
> unlike a conventional flame. Electrical discharge is easiest from sharp
> points, so I would think a wick could be a good candidate. I see no
> reason why a stable discharge could not linger for 33 minutes.
>
> http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weather/elements/stelmo.htm
>
> On this page is the statement: "During those storms the holy body, that
> is, to say St. Elmo, appeared to us many times in light...on an
> exceedingly dark night on the maintop where he stayed for about two
> hours or more for our consolation."
I think you are speculating before all the facts are in. Note that
most of the eyewitness reports of the fire in the church are from
believers who have been prepped as to what to expect. What do the
non-believer eyewitnesses see?
www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/04/16/wholy16.xml
The ceremony, conducted by the Greek and Armenian Orthodox
churches, begins with the extinguishing of all lights in the
church. The door to the presumed site of the burial and
Resurrection of Jesus is searched for light and sealed with wax.
The priests parade around the tomb three times then go
inside. After a tense wait, as the often rowdy congregation holds
its breath, a flame suddenly appears. Candles are passed out of
holes on either side of the tomb to torch-bearers from the Greek
and Armenian churches, who race up the steps, competing to be the
first to bring the fire to the top balcony.
A cheer spreads through the darkened church when the fire is first
seen. The flame is passed from hand to hand, with the faithful
waving bundles of candles and spattering themselves with hot
wax. The church comes alive in a blaze of light, smoke and
incense. It is hard not to be taken up in the euphoria.
but no sign that this eyewitness saw a miraculous spread of the fire
so the only apparent question is where the initial flame came from.
Local Christians - a tiny minority in a Holy Land racked by
violence - certainly need something to cheer them up. But one
Armenian torch-bearer, Soukias Tchilingirian, felt the truth had to
be told. He said: "It's not a miracle. The Greek priests bring in a
lamp - one that has been kept burning for 1,500 years - to produce
the Holy Fire. For pilgrims full of faith who come from abroad, it
is a fire from Heaven, a true miracle. But not for us. Of course
the source of the fire is ancient and symbolic. I heard this from
my father and I think he knew the truth."
...
A senior member of the Armenian community was shocked by the
suggestion that Greek priests smuggled in the flame. "I have never
seen it as my business to ask the Patriarch from where the Holy
Fire comes," he sniffed.
I've also heard no reports of sudden conversions among non-believing
eyewitnesses (and due to the rivalries somtimes violent among the
various christian sects when it comes to this church, Israeli security
presumably non-christian for the most part is present and tight).
Josef Balluch
In a message sent 'round the world, Emma Pease poured fuel on the fire
with the following:
...
> I think you are speculating before all the facts are in. Note that
> most of the eyewitness reports of the fire in the church are from
> believers who have been prepped as to what to expect. What do the
> non-believer eyewitnesses see?
I agree that there is a certain amount of speculation involved, as I
have no first hand experience of this event. I can only go by second
hand reports. Given that, is it more reasonable to conclude from the
available reports that this event is supernatural, or natural?
> www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/04/16/wholy16.xml
Any conclusion that I or anyone else can draw from the information at
this link must also be somewhat speculative, as it too is second hand
information. :^) Still, this report supports my contention that the
event has a natural explanation.
...
Regards,
Josef
Faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurrence of
the improbable.
-- H. L. Mencken
Emma Pease
Balluch wrote:
>
> In a message sent 'round the world, Emma Pease poured fuel on the fire
> with the following:
>
>
> ...
>
>
>> I think you are speculating before all the facts are in. Note that
>> most of the eyewitness reports of the fire in the church are from
>> believers who have been prepped as to what to expect. What do the
>> non-believer eyewitnesses see?
>
>
> I agree that there is a certain amount of speculation involved, as I
> have no first hand experience of this event. I can only go by second
> hand reports. Given that, is it more reasonable to conclude from the
> available reports that this event is supernatural, or natural?
>
>> www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/04/16/wholy16.xml
>
> Any conclusion that I or anyone else can draw from the information at
> this link must also be somewhat speculative, as it too is second hand
> information. :^) Still, this report supports my contention that the
> event has a natural explanation.
Agreed but I think some of the 'facts' being accepted as having
happened aren't actually happening and therefore do not need to be
explained. I should have stayed with 'wildly speculating' in my
initial message. My own view is that this is an entirely natural
event probably with a bit of pious fraud and certainly with a lot of
crowd enthusiasm that 'know' what they will see and so do. Note also
that it also seems to confirm the Orthodox view of the date of Easter
(probably a major reason why most Protestant and Roman Catholics don't
see this as a miracle).
Josef Balluch
In a message sent 'round the world, Emma Pease poured fuel on the fire
with the following:
> In article <MPG.193ba44b6...@news1.on.sympatico.ca>, Josef
> Balluch wrote:
...
> >> www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/04/16/wholy16.xml
> >
> > Any conclusion that I or anyone else can draw from the information at
> > this link must also be somewhat speculative, as it too is second hand
> > information. :^) Still, this report supports my contention that the
> > event has a natural explanation.
>
> Agreed but I think some of the 'facts' being accepted as having
> happened aren't actually happening and therefore do not need to be
> explained.
Without first hand experience I cannot say which "facts" happen, and
which do not. There is quite a bit of agreement amongst numerous
observers as to what has happened, and this fact also needs to be
explained. Calling it some sort of fraud, conspiracy and mass delusion
requires a fair amount of justification. How could such a conspiracy
succeed for many hundreds of years? The other interesting point is that
the reports describe something which fits the description of some
natural phenomenon, and a phenomenon which was often assumed to be
supernatural.
> I should have stayed with 'wildly speculating' in my
> initial message.
Building an entire case on one unconfirmed report of hearsay information
would be even more wild.
> My own view is that this is an entirely natural
> event probably with a bit of pious fraud and certainly with a lot of
> crowd enthusiasm that 'know' what they will see and so do. Note also
> that it also seems to confirm the Orthodox view of the date of Easter
> (probably a major reason why most Protestant and Roman Catholics don't
> see this as a miracle).
It clearly would not be wise for other sects to acknowledge the
"validity" of this miracle.
Regards,
Josef
There is no faith, however respectable, no interest, however legitimate,
which must not accommodate itself to the progress of human knowledge and
bend before truth.
-- Paul Broca
Mike Painter
"Josef Balluch" <josef....@sympatico.can> wrote in message
>
>
>
>
> Without first hand experience I cannot say which "facts" happen, and
> which do not. There is quite a bit of agreement amongst numerous
> observers as to what has happened, and this fact also needs to be
> explained. Calling it some sort of fraud, conspiracy and mass delusion
> requires a fair amount of justification. How could such a conspiracy
> succeed for many hundreds of years? The other interesting point is that
> the reports describe something which fits the description of some
> natural phenomenon, and a phenomenon which was often assumed to be
> supernatural.
As to lasting hundreds of years what evidence do you have that it has lasted
that long and is the same now as when first reported?
Why hasn't it lasted nearly 2000?
People believed kings were picked by gods or *were* gods for thousands of
years and the kings didn't argue. Why ruin a good thing?
Gray Cloud
> www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/04/16/wholy16.xml
>
> [...]
>
> The priests parade around the tomb three times then go
> inside. After a tense wait, as the often rowdy congregation holds
> its breath, a flame suddenly appears. Candles are passed [...]
"a flame suddenly appears" !? Where from?
> but no sign that this eyewitness saw a miraculous spread of the fire
> so the only apparent question is where the initial flame came from.
If we are to believe another eyewitness, albeit a believer (Patriarch
Diodorus I), http://www.holyfire.org/eng/doc_MiracleEncounters.htm#Diodorus:
"In the tomb, I say particular prayers that have been handed down to
us through the centuries and, having said them, I wait. Sometimes I
may wait a few minutes, but normally the miracle happens immediately
after I have said the prayers. From the core of the very stone on
which Jesus lay an indefinable light pours forth. It usually has a
blue tint, but the colour may change and take on many different hues.
It cannot be described in human terms. The light rises out of the
stone as mist may rise out of a lake - it almost looks as if the stone
is covered by a moist cloud, but it is light. "
> He said: "It's not a miracle. The Greek priests bring in a
> lamp - one that has been kept burning for 1,500 years - to produce
> the Holy Fire. For pilgrims full of faith who come from abroad, it
> is a fire from Heaven, a true miracle. But not for us. Of course
> the source of the fire is ancient and symbolic. I heard this from
> my father and I think he knew the truth."
It is harder to believe this hearsay "I think he knew the
truth"-evidence than the testimonies from
http://www.holyfire.org/eng/svid.htm .
And, there are videos available from
http://www.holylight.gr/agiofos/endownload.html , such as
http://www.entercom-tech.com/video/640.zip ,
which show that there appear to be outside flashes as well. What Emma
quoted implies that there is a single source of fire, inside the tomb,
while www.holyfire.com and the other related sites all mention "blue
light"s flying outside the tomb.
http://www.holyfire.org/eng/doc_MiracleEncounters.htm :
"The best arguments against fraud, however, are not the testimonies of
the various patriarchs but the thousands of independent pilgrims who
during the centuries have written of how they saw the blue light
outside the tomb spontaneously lighting the candles in front of their
eyes without any possible explanation."
> I've also heard no reports of sudden conversions among non-believing
> eyewitnesses (and due to the rivalries somtimes violent among the
> various christian sects when it comes to this church, Israeli security
> presumably non-christian for the most part is present and tight).
Indeed, the lack of "common knowledge" about this alleged miracle is a
bit surprising.
Regards,
Gray Cloud
Mike Painter
news:<slrnbd2qr...@hypatia.Stanford.EDU>...
>
> >
www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/04/16/wholy16.xml
> >
> > [...]
> "The best arguments against fraud, however, are not the testimonies of
> the various patriarchs but the thousands of independent pilgrims who
> during the centuries have written of how they saw the blue light
> outside the tomb spontaneously lighting the candles in front of their
> eyes without any possible explanation."
Penn and Teller as well as Randi might have something to say about that.
Randi has over a million dollars for them.
The best argument against fraud is not what people think they see but what
science and trained observers see.
Gray Cloud
> St. Elmo's can be generated artificially indoors, which confirms that it
> is possible to find it inside.
>
> http://www.epinions.com/content_91991477892
Generating St. Elmo's fire indoors appears to require van der Graaf
generators, which were not available until modern times, while the
miracle is much older.
> The next link describes some sort of electric discharge seen indoors. Do
> a search in the page for "Audrey Rohde".
>
> http://hsv.com/weather/unusual/
The description look a lot more like ball lightning. The article ends
with "He believes it may have been St. Elmo's Fire since he did hear
the noise it made.". AFAIK, St. Elmo's fire is silent, while ball
lighting does make noises.
> > > A mentioned at one of the links I supplied, the clerics make
> > > provisions in case the "fire" fails to appear, so it may not be a
> > > continuous event.
> >
> http://www.yalchicago.org/greatmiracle.html
"If for one year the miracle of the Holy Light doesn't happen when the
Greek Orthodox Patriarch performs the ceremony the other doctrines
will try to undertake the precedence in the Holy Sepulcher."
This sounds like a protocol. However, there are no mentions of cases
when the fire didn't appear at all.
> The discharge can actually be generated safely from one's
> finger tips:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/clv7
"Recently, St. Elmo's fire was reported on a ship in the North
Atlantic, the observers able to pick up 'tufts' of blue and violet
light from the deck by the ends of their finger-tips as though their
fingers had ignited."
This argument seems to support the idea that the holy fire is actually
St. Elmo's fire. One side note, though: the discharge was not
*generated* from observers' fingertips, but rather "picked up".
But, Elmo's fire is blue and glows, while the NON-BURNING file in
http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Orthodox_Miracles/Pascha_Holy_Light/4.jpg
is yellow and looks like a flame.
> It doesn't imply a violation. If the Holy Fire is visible for 33 minutes
> then this suggests to me that the church remains dark for 33 minutes. At
> this point the church is illuminated with regular lamps and candles to
> mark the end of the ceremony. The electric discharge then is no longer
> seen because of it's rather low power.
This doesn't explain why the discharge gets normal fire properties
(burning hands, for example).
Regards,
Gray Cloud
Josef Balluch
In a message sent 'round the world, "Mike Painter" <mpainteratattdotnet>
> "Josef Balluch" <josef....@sympatico.can> wrote in message
> news:MPG.193cbd61...@news1.on.sympatico.ca...
> > Without first hand experience I cannot say which "facts" happen, and
> > which do not. There is quite a bit of agreement amongst numerous
> > observers as to what has happened, and this fact also needs to be
> > explained. Calling it some sort of fraud, conspiracy and mass delusion
> > requires a fair amount of justification. How could such a conspiracy
> > succeed for many hundreds of years? The other interesting point is that
> > the reports describe something which fits the description of some
> > natural phenomenon, and a phenomenon which was often assumed to be
> > supernatural.
> Some reports do but many don't.
?????
That means that those who describe the phenomenon are wrong?
As I have pointed out previously, there are indications that the "Holy
Fire" does not always appear on schedule. Also, the church is extremely
crowded for this event and not everyone gets a front row seat. The crowd
actually overflows outside the sepulcher.
From http://www.cin.org/archives/cinjub/199912/0004.html :
"During the Eastern Orthodox ritual, the church and its courtyard are
thronged with celebrants who jostle to light their candles directly from
the patriarch's after his is miraculously ignited inside the sepulcher."
Given the circumstances, I would be surprised if the descriptions did
not differ. If there were a conspiracy then you might expect much more
agreement about the "details".
> As to lasting hundreds of years what evidence do you have that it has lasted
> that long and is the same now as when first reported?
All we have is what has been recorded.
http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/St.Pachomius/hvidt-fire.html
http://www.holyfire.org/eng/history.htm
> Why hasn't it lasted nearly 2000?
The building hasn't been there that long. Duh !
http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00v10
> People believed kings were picked by gods or *were* gods for thousands of
> years and the kings didn't argue. Why ruin a good thing?
There are plenty of people who would like to show this event to be a
fraud of some sort. They have opportunity to obtain the necessary
evidence, but very little solid evidence has been presented.
Josef Balluch
In a message sent 'round the world, Gray Cloud poured fuel on the fire
with the following:
> Josef Balluch <josef....@sympatico.can> wrote in message news:<MPG.193b160bf...@news1.on.sympatico.ca>...
>
> > St. Elmo's can be generated artificially indoors, which confirms that it
> > is possible to find it inside.
> >
> > http://www.epinions.com/content_91991477892
>
> Generating St. Elmo's fire indoors appears to require van der Graaf
> generators, which were not available until modern times, while the
> miracle is much older.
Well yeah. I did say it was generated artificially. The point I was
making is that the laws of physics do not preclude the appearance of St.
Elmo's indoors.
> > The next link describes some sort of electric discharge seen indoors. Do
> > a search in the page for "Audrey Rohde".
> >
> > http://hsv.com/weather/unusual/
>
> The description look a lot more like ball lightning. The article ends
> with "He believes it may have been St. Elmo's Fire since he did hear
> the noise it made.". AFAIK, St. Elmo's fire is silent, while ball
> lighting does make noises.
Nope. St. Elmo's is not silent.
http://www.corocam.com/technology.asp Do a search for St Elmo
http://www.ntnu.no/gemini/1996-04/9.html Do a search for St. Elmo
> > > > A mentioned at one of the links I supplied, the clerics make
> > > > provisions in case the "fire" fails to appear, so it may not be a
> > > > continuous event.
> > >
> > http://www.yalchicago.org/greatmiracle.html
>
> "If for one year the miracle of the Holy Light doesn't happen when the
> Greek Orthodox Patriarch performs the ceremony the other doctrines
> will try to undertake the precedence in the Holy Sepulcher."
>
> This sounds like a protocol. However, there are no mentions of cases
> when the fire didn't appear at all.
I previously supplied a link which mentioned that the fire appeared
late. Here's another:
http://www.holyfire.org/eng/history.htm
Do a search in the page for "Matthew of Edessa", and for "Theoderich".
> > The discharge can actually be generated safely from one's
> > finger tips:
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/clv7
>
> "Recently, St. Elmo's fire was reported on a ship in the North
> Atlantic, the observers able to pick up 'tufts' of blue and violet
> light from the deck by the ends of their finger-tips as though their
> fingers had ignited."
>
> This argument seems to support the idea that the holy fire is actually
> St. Elmo's fire. One side note, though: the discharge was not
> *generated* from observers' fingertips, but rather "picked up".
St. Elmo's is an electric discharge and thus requires an energy supply.
It is not an object that can be "picked up", but it can be transferred
from one pointed object to others.
> But, Elmo's fire is blue and glows, while the NON-BURNING file in
> http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Orthodox_Miracles/Pascha_Holy_Light/4.jpg
> is yellow and looks like a flame.
It is possible to pass your hand through a candle flame without injury,
and I have done this numerous times. I have also done this with the
flame of a propane torch.
> > It doesn't imply a violation. If the Holy Fire is visible for 33 minutes
> > then this suggests to me that the church remains dark for 33 minutes. At
> > this point the church is illuminated with regular lamps and candles to
> > mark the end of the ceremony. The electric discharge then is no longer
> > seen because of it's rather low power.
>
> This doesn't explain why the discharge gets normal fire properties
> (burning hands, for example).
I am not suggesting that the discharge develops "normal" properties. It
is no longer visible after normal flame is passed around at the end of
the ceremony.
Regards,
Josef
An investment in knowledge pays the best interest.
-- Benjamin Franklin
Mike Painter
"Josef Balluch" <josef....@sympatico.can> wrote in message
>
> In a message sent 'round the world, "Mike Painter" <mpainteratattdotnet>
> poured fuel on the fire with the following:
>
>
> > "Josef Balluch" <josef....@sympatico.can> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.193cbd61...@news1.on.sympatico.ca...
>
>
> > > Without first hand experience I cannot say which "facts" happen, and
> > > which do not. There is quite a bit of agreement amongst numerous
> > > observers as to what has happened, and this fact also needs to be
> > > explained. Calling it some sort of fraud, conspiracy and mass delusion
> > > requires a fair amount of justification. How could such a conspiracy
> > > succeed for many hundreds of years? The other interesting point is
that
> > > the reports describe something which fits the description of some
> > > natural phenomenon, and a phenomenon which was often assumed to be
> > > supernatural.
>
> > Some reports do but many don't.
>
>
> ?????
>
> That means that those who describe the phenomenon are wrong?
No, it means that ther is disagreement as to what happens.
Some of those reports are from people who grew up in the tradition.
Without objective scientific evidence it is at best a parlor trick and
millions of people throughout time have been fooled by such.
Possibly it is the "David Blaine" type of street magic. Widely hyped for a
long time but mediocre magic for those who actually practice such magic.
Blaine's trick with the writing that appears on his arm is absolutley
unexplainable and true magic - until you see the parts that were cut from
the TV shows.
If you believed that your faith was the right faith and that your magic was
real magic wouldn't you be eager to have it investigated?
> > Why hasn't it lasted nearly 2000?
>
>
> The building hasn't been there that long. Duh !
So now a building is required. Does the magic come from the building or from
the alleged site that the building covers?
Did this happen before they built it? Maybe it was build with magic stones
from the pyramid.
I suspect this has the same mystery that the pyrmids do. The TV shows that
talk about how the anciants could have built such structures without help
from aliens never show the little pyramids or the failures that led to the
good ones.
>
> http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00v10
>
>
>
> > People believed kings were picked by gods or *were* gods for thousands
of
> > years and the kings didn't argue. Why ruin a good thing?
>
>
> There are plenty of people who would like to show this event to be a
> fraud of some sort. They have opportunity to obtain the necessary
> evidence, but very little solid evidence has been presented.
>
Document that scientists have been allowed to conduct actual investigations
or that Penn and Teller or Randi have been allowed in.
.
Josef Balluch
In a message sent 'round the world, "Mike Painter" <mpainteratattdotnet>
poured fuel on the fire with the following:
> "Josef Balluch" <josef....@sympatico.can> wrote in message
> news:MPG.193dbdadc...@news1.on.sympatico.ca...
> >
> > In a message sent 'round the world, "Mike Painter" <mpainteratattdotnet>
> > poured fuel on the fire with the following:
...
> > > Some reports do but many don't.
> >
> >
> > ?????
> >
> > That means that those who describe the phenomenon are wrong?
>
> No, it means that ther is disagreement as to what happens.
> Some of those reports are from people who grew up in the tradition.
As I pointed out, the disagreement is not unexpected given the
circumstances, and it would be unusual if there was not some
disagreement. Unfortunately you haven't seen fit to address this point.
> Without objective scientific evidence it is at best a parlor trick and
> millions of people throughout time have been fooled by such.
Silly Twaddle.
> Possibly it is the "David Blaine" type of street magic. Widely hyped for a
> long time but mediocre magic for those who actually practice such magic.
> Blaine's trick with the writing that appears on his arm is absolutley
> unexplainable and true magic - until you see the parts that were cut from
> the TV shows.
Pure speculation. Have any practiced magicians come forward to denounce
the hoax?
> If you believed that your faith was the right faith and that your magic was
> real magic wouldn't you be eager to have it investigated?
Got any evidence for your conspiracy theory?
> > > Why hasn't it lasted nearly 2000?
> >
> >
> > The building hasn't been there that long. Duh !
>
> So now a building is required.
Were you paying attention when I pointed out that St. Elmo's is often
associated with tall structures such a masts, towers, and ..........
********** church steeples ****************** ?
> Does the magic come from the building or from
> the alleged site that the building covers?
I do not claim that magic is involved. This may be your hypothesis.
> Did this happen before they built it? Maybe it was build with magic stones
> from the pyramid.
Silly Twaddle.
...
> > There are plenty of people who would like to show this event to be a
> > fraud of some sort. They have opportunity to obtain the necessary
> > evidence, but very little solid evidence has been presented.
> >
> Document that scientists have been allowed to conduct actual investigations
> or that Penn and Teller or Randi have been allowed in.
Shifting the Burden.
It's YOUR hypothesis. YOU produce the support.
Regards,
Josef
Some folks are wise and some are otherwise.
-- Tobias George Smolett
Emma Pease
Balluch wrote:
>
> In a message sent 'round the world, "Mike Painter" <mpainteratattdotnet>
> poured fuel on the fire with the following:
>
>> Without objective scientific evidence it is at best a parlor trick and
>> millions of people throughout time have been fooled by such.
>
> Silly Twaddle.
Why? Unless we have some clear evidence and not just reports from
people primed to see what they believe is going to happen, we don't
know anything unusual is going on.
>> > > Why hasn't it lasted nearly 2000?
>> >
>> >
>> > The building hasn't been there that long. Duh !
>>
>> So now a building is required.
>
>
> Were you paying attention when I pointed out that St. Elmo's is often
> associated with tall structures such a masts, towers, and ..........
> ********** church steeples ****************** ?
Hmm, a lot of eastern churches don't have steeples; does this one?
>> > There are plenty of people who would like to show this event to be a
>> > fraud of some sort. They have opportunity to obtain the necessary
>> > evidence, but very little solid evidence has been presented.
>> >
>> Document that scientists have been allowed to conduct actual investigations
>> or that Penn and Teller or Randi have been allowed in.
> Shifting the Burden.
>
> It's YOUR hypothesis. YOU produce the support.
Given that in this case the hypothesis is that a scientific study
has NOT been done of the phenomena it would be difficult to prove
though very easy to disprove (i.e., evidence that a scientific study
has been done).
Note that the other hypotheses being presented are explanations for
why people see what they see
1. It is a case of mass enthusiasm possibly with some pious fraud involved
(a psychological explanation)
2. It actually happens as described and has a physical cause such as
St. Elmo's fire. (a physics explanation)
Google search found some other eyewitnesses
Those that got the fire applied it immediately to
their beards, faces, and bosoms, pretending that it
would not burn like an earthly flame; but I plainly
saw none of them could endure this experiment long
enough to make good that pretension.
So many hands being employed, you may be sure
it could not be long before innumerable tapers were
lighted. The whole church, galleries and every place,
seemed instantly to be in a flame, and with this illu-
mination the ceremony ended.
http://www.cwru.edu/edocs/8/116.pdf
(certainly pre-WWI and probably sometime in the 19th century)
but nothing indicating any scientific study had been done.
All the reports seem to agree that the crowd is large, packed, and
enthusiastic and that they are in this state for several hours before
the 'miracles' take place. Note also that there are two sets of
miracles.
1. What takes place within the tomb and allows the cleric(s) to walk
out with lighted candles
2. What takes place outside the tomb and allows candles/lamps around
the church to be lit so quickly
For 1 we are unlikely for anyone ever to get permission to put a
camera inside the tomb or to have a skeptical observer watch it.
For 2 no disbelieving observer seems to see anything miraculous though
believing observers sometimes do.
Emma
Josef Balluch
In a message sent 'round the world, Emma Pease poured fuel on the fire
with the following:
> In article <MPG.193ee5939...@news1.on.sympatico.ca>, Josef
> Balluch wrote:
> >
> > In a message sent 'round the world, "Mike Painter" <mpainteratattdotnet>
> > poured fuel on the fire with the following:
> >
>
> >> Without objective scientific evidence it is at best a parlor trick and
> >> millions of people throughout time have been fooled by such.
> >
> > Silly Twaddle.
>
> Why? Unless we have some clear evidence and not just reports from
> people primed to see what they believe is going to happen, we don't
> know anything unusual is going on.
The fact that "we don't know anything unusual is going on" does NOT
establish that a trick or fraud has occurred.
> >> > > Why hasn't it lasted nearly 2000?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > The building hasn't been there that long. Duh !
> >>
> >> So now a building is required.
> >
> >
> > Were you paying attention when I pointed out that St. Elmo's is often
> > associated with tall structures such a masts, towers, and ..........
> > ********** church steeples ****************** ?
>
> Hmm, a lot of eastern churches don't have steeples; does this one?
< chuckle > Another one that doesn't do research before posting !
http://www.bibleplaces.com/holysepulcher.htm
> >> > There are plenty of people who would like to show this event to be a
> >> > fraud of some sort. They have opportunity to obtain the necessary
> >> > evidence, but very little solid evidence has been presented.
> >> >
> >> Document that scientists have been allowed to conduct actual investigations
> >> or that Penn and Teller or Randi have been allowed in.
>
>
> > Shifting the Burden.
> >
> > It's YOUR hypothesis. YOU produce the support.
>
> Given that in this case the hypothesis is that a scientific study
> has NOT been done of the phenomena it would be difficult to prove
> though very easy to disprove (i.e., evidence that a scientific study
> has been done).
Nope. The hypothesis presented by Mike is for some sort of fraud, trick
or conspiracy. The claim that no scientific study has been done is NOT
an explanation of the phenomenon.
Regardless of what you feel the hypothesis to be, my point remains. I am
only obligated to support MY hypothesis. I am NOT obligated to disprove
your's, or anyone else's. If you feel you have a better hypothesis, then
produce the support.
> Note that the other hypotheses being presented are explanations for
> why people see what they see
...
> but nothing indicating any scientific study had been done.
If you had read my first post in this thread then you would have seen
that I acknowledged that a scientific investigation has likely not been
done. This would not be too surprising; the clerics clearly have a
vested interest in maintaining the mystery. This, by itself, does not
invalidate my contention that the phenomenon could have a natural
explanation. Nor does it establish fraud, conspiracy or what have you.
...
Regards,
Josef
Men can live without air a few minutes, without water for about two
weeks, without food for about two months - and without a new thought for
years on end.
-- Kent Ruth
Gray Cloud
> > But, Elmo's fire is blue and glows, while the NON-BURNING file in
> > http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Orthodox_Miracles/Pascha_Holy_Light/4.jpg
> > is yellow and looks like a flame.
>
>
> It is possible to pass your hand through a candle flame without injury,
> and I have done this numerous times. I have also done this with the
> flame of a propane torch.
beards. This is also supported by the orthodox patriarch:
"The light does not burn — I have never had my beard burnt in all the sixteen
years I have been Patriarch in Jerusalem and have received the Holy Fire."
(http://www.holyfire.org/eng/velich.html)
Regards,
Gray Cloud
Mike Painter
> Josef Balluch <josef....@sympatico.can> wrote in message
news:<MPG.193dd232c...@news1.on.sympatico.ca>...
> > > But, Elmo's fire is blue and glows, while the NON-BURNING file in
> > >
http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Orthodox_Miracles/Pascha_Holy_Light/4.jpg
> > > is yellow and looks like a flame.
> >
> >
> > It is possible to pass your hand through a candle flame without injury,
> > and I have done this numerous times. I have also done this with the
> > flame of a propane torch.
>
> Perhaps, but as many pilgrims claim, the fire does not burn their hair or
> beards. This is also supported by the orthodox patriarch:
>
sixteen
> years I have been Patriarch in Jerusalem and have received the Holy Fire."
> (http://www.holyfire.org/eng/velich.html)
Document that in a scientific manner and $1,000,000 is yours or theirs to do
good with.
Josef Balluch
In a message sent 'round the world, Gray Cloud poured fuel on the fire
with the following:
> Josef Balluch <josef....@sympatico.can> wrote in message news:<MPG.193dd232c...@news1.on.sympatico.ca>...
...
> > It is possible to pass your hand through a candle flame without injury,
> > and I have done this numerous times. I have also done this with the
> > flame of a propane torch.
>
> Perhaps, but as many pilgrims claim, the fire does not burn their hair or
> beards. This is also supported by the orthodox patriarch:
>
> "The light does not burn — I have never had my beard burnt in all the sixteen
> years I have been Patriarch in Jerusalem and have received the Holy Fire."
> (http://www.holyfire.org/eng/velich.html)
The patriarch describes the light as having a blue tint and being like a
cloud or mist, ie: clearly not a yellow candle flame.
Regards,
Josef
A problem is never as permanent as a solution.
-- Harvey Fierstein
Gray Cloud
> > > It is possible to pass your hand through a candle flame without injury,
> > > and I have done this numerous times. I have also done this with the
> > > flame of a propane torch.
> >
> > Perhaps, but as many pilgrims claim, the fire does not burn their hair or
> > beards. This is also supported by the orthodox patriarch:
> >
>
>
> The patriarch describes the light as having a blue tint and being like a
> cloud or mist, ie: clearly not a yellow candle flame.
Good point, Josef!
Mike, I contacted James Randi regarding this, and his position is
strongly
that this is a fraud. He said that JREF's efforts to communicate with
the
church officials have never been responded to.
Randi also claims that such "holy fire" events can be done "with
capsules of
glycerine and potassium permanganate" and they were "done in the early
days,
too, but by cruder means".
Randi also said that "The "blue fire" can be performed by mixing equal
volumes
of carbon tetrachloride and carbon bisulfide (disulfide) a mixture of
liquids
-- which burns at about 95 degrees Fahrenheit."
While this might very well be true, I think that a scientific
investigation really ought to be done. Most probably the church
officials will deny such investigation when the "holy fire" happens,
but if Josef's hypothesis is true, then simply monitoring the Church
of the Holy Sepulchre over a sufficient length of time would
eventually catch the "holy fire" appearing as a simple natural
phenomenon.
I'm not actually a scientist, but this approach seems feasible to me.
Is there really no way to test this claim? There are 210 millions of
orthodoxes potentially being mass delusioned by a miracle that is no
more miraculous than a mirror to an old native american!
Something should really be done about this. All sincere parties -
christians and atheists - should be interested. After all, this might
prove to be that "proof that God exists" we're all looking for... Are
we afraid He doesn't?
Regards,
Gray Cloud