Where is Europe....Where is France
Jigsaw1695
bragging how Europe is at the forefront of "helping the oppressed".
Tell me guys, how many North Korean Refuges will be taken in by France and
the rest of the Euros? Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands? None?
So much for the "higher ideals" expressed the above listed participants in
this news group.
US prepares to open door to flood of North Korean refugees
By Marian Wilkinson, Herald Correspondent in Washington
July 30 2003
The Bush Administration is expected to back plans to provide thousands of
North Koreans with asylum in America, supporting efforts to transport them
out of China, in a significant policy shift.
"We will see the United States adopt very generous provisions for North
Korean refugees, including relocating them from China and South Korea into
processing camps in the region and into localities in the US," said Chuck
Downs, a long-time Washington consultant on North Korean human rights.
The US Senate recently passed a measure that would allow North Korean asylum
seekers to apply for refugee status in the US, a move that is expected to be
supported soon by the full Congress.
Some US officials are concerned that North Korean advocate groups are
pushing the change as a way of "imploding" Kim Jong-il's regime. The
advocate groups draw parallels with the fall of communist Europeafter huge
refugee movements out of eastern bloc countries destabilized the regimes
there.
But accepting North Korean refugees received strong support across the
political spectrum in the US Senate. It was sponsored by senators Sam
Brownback, a Republican, and Ted Kennedy, a Democrat.
"There is an exodus of massive proportions taking place out of North Korea,"
said Senator Brownback, who put the figure at about 300,000 people.
"South Korea really cannot be expected to take all of these refugees fleeing
[via] China."
Previous attempts by Congress to encourage refugees from North Korea have
been blocked by successive US governments concerned about opposition from
China and South Korea. Legally, North Koreans are considered citizens of
South Korea and not entitled to refugee status in the US.
But since the nuclear crisis on the Korean peninsula, North Korean human
rights organizations and refugee advocates are winning enormous influence in
Washington.
The head of the State Department's Agency for International Development,
Andrew Nations, has appeared at a conference on Capitol Hill called Gulag,
Famine and Refugees: The Urgent Human Rights Crisis in North Korea, where he
spoke out against human rights abuses in the country.
The influential conservative Christian Coalition has also joined forces with
prominent conservative think tanks and their supporters in the Bush
Administration to push for the overhaul of refugee policy.
At the Capitol Hill conference, which was attended by UN representatives and
North Korean refugees, US senators spoke up forcefully for the policy
change.
"The senators will have a great deal of luck changing the policy," said Mr.
Downs, who attended the conference. "There is a core group of State
Department and Defense Department officials who are very eager to see the
Administration be responsive to this and I think they have the support of
the President."
Some officials argue that any refugee program should be limited to several
thousand people. But according to Mr. Downs, if up to 9000 were allowed into
the US, "that's a tremendous loosening of the floodgates".
Euro
"Jigsaw1695" <jigsa...@earthlink.net>
??????:jX%Va.28505$Mc.22...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> This for Earl, Dezi, Euro, Clown, John Rennie, et al. who are always
> bragging how Europe is at the forefront of "helping the oppressed".
>
> Tell me guys, how many North Korean Refuges will be taken in by France and
> the rest of the Euros? Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands? None?
>
> So much for the "higher ideals" expressed the above listed participants in
> this news group.
I guess Europe has taken more than its part in welcoming people who were
living in oppression, whether from Arab and African countries, from Eastern
Europe (as the article you posted eloquently reminds), from Latin America,
and even from Asia.
Now, as you're willing to talk about "higher ideals", can you tell me how
you would reconcile the humanitarian ideals invoked to support an aggression
against Iraq and the US passivity regarding the Liberian tragedy?
Euro
Euro
implemented? While all EU member States (excluding Ireland and France, if my
memory is correct) have a diplomatic representation in Pyongyang, it appears
that the US has none.
In other terms, the "flood of North Korean refugees" mentionned by the
article you posted will have to reach, at their own risks, either China, or
South Korea, before getting the benefit of this law.
As one can't imagine "a flood of North Korean refuggees" arriving to South
Korea, it is more than likely that this flood will have to go through China,
where the diplomatic representations of Western countries are under close
scrutiny (by the Chinese police). The few people who, in the end, will
manage to reach a Western (or Japanese) diplomatic representation will most
likely be handed to South Korea, first, because many of the refugees want
that (many Korean families have been split by the division of Korea in
1948), and second, because the announced "flood of North Korean refugees"
will amount to tens of persons that South Korea will have no problem to
integrate.
Indeed, the last group of North Korean refugees that managed to enter a
Western diplomatic representation (4 persons that entered the UK Consulate
in Shanghai last month) all went to South Korea.
In other terms, I fear that the US generous policy to welcome "floods of
North Korean refugees" might result in being just a generous announcement
followed by no concrete implementation.
But on this point, you may have informations I ignore.
Euro
Earl Evleth
c1ef20d47cfb765b...@news.meganetnews.com, "Euro"
<vs...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> But on this point, you may have informations I ignore.
Just ignoring Jiffy is the best policy.
His nonsense is amusing now and they, when
we need to have a few laughs.
But he means no harm, in fact what does he mean?
Earl
Jigsaw1695
"Euro" <vs...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c1ef20d47cfb765b...@news.meganetnews.com...
==
Gee, Euro,I asked why the French and the Europeans who claim the moral high
ground, have made no effort to
aid North Korean refugees. Why is this? Do they have a problem with letting
them in?
Jigsaw
Jigsaw1695
>
> "Jigsaw1695" <jigsa...@earthlink.net>
> ??????:jX%Va.28505$Mc.22...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > This for Earl, Dezi, Euro, Clown, John Rennie, et al. who are always
> > bragging how Europe is at the forefront of "helping the oppressed".
> >
> > Tell me guys, how many North Korean Refuges will be taken in by France
and
> > the rest of the Euros? Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands? None?
> >
> > So much for the "higher ideals" expressed the above listed participants
in
> > this news group.
>
> I guess Europe has taken more than its part in welcoming people who were
> living in oppression, whether from Arab and African countries, from
Eastern
> Europe (as the article you posted eloquently reminds), from Latin America,
> and even from Asia.
>
> Now, as you're willing to talk about "higher ideals", can you tell me how
> you would reconcile the humanitarian ideals invoked to support an
aggression
> against Iraq and the US passivity regarding the Liberian tragedy?
>
> Euro
Please explain why the European community has so far refused to give any aid
or assistance to the North Korean refugees.
Jigsaw
Euro
"Jigsaw1695" <jigsa...@earthlink.net>
??????:LO8Wa.126822$Io.10...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
They may actually have no problem. How do you know that no North Korean has
been admitted by EU countries?
Oh, Fox News never mentionned it, right?
Euro
Euro
"Jigsaw1695" <jigsa...@earthlink.net>
??????:wR8Wa.126828$Io.10...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
The European community has so far provided more than 50% of the food aid
supplied by the World Food Programme to the North Koreans (and not to the
regime itself). Pure gifts to try and appease the sufferings of a starving
people.
Talking about the EU's "refusal to give any aid or assistance" to the North
Koreans is, thus, total inaccuracy.
Euro
Jigsaw1695
Alright Euro, I will play your game.....
Euro....have any EU countries admitted North Korean refugees?
Jigsaw
Jigsaw1695
So what you are saying is that all the reports of food shortages and famine
in PRNK are lies.
Or is it that EU aide is really ineffectual?
Jigsaw
>
John Rennie
"Earl Evleth" <evl...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:BB4EE190.F62A%evl...@wanadoo.fr...
> On 31/07/03 14:16, in article
> c1ef20d47cfb765b...@news.meganetnews.com, "Euro"
> <vs...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > But on this point, you may have informations I ignore.
>
>
> Just ignoring Jiffy is the best policy.
Yes it is. So why do you and Donna respond to his abysmal
posts so often?
Donna Evleth
Dans l'article <Z6cWa.797$7%5.25...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>, "John
Rennie" <j.re...@ntlworld.com> a écrit :
I don't know. A number of reasons come to mind. I'm trying to educate him
(waste of time). I feel sorry for him in his abysmal ignorance (waste of
energy). I automatically respond when sollicited (waste of courtesy).
I am asking the Reverend Gaston to pray for me and to encourage me toward
more worthwhile endeavors.
Donna Evleth
Dolly B.Coughlan Jr
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Tell me Jigsaw...
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: 31 Jul 2003 13:54:45 GMT
>
>Le Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:27:07 GMT, Jigsaw1695 <jigsa...@earthlink.net> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> In other terms, I fear that the US generous policy to welcome "floods of
>>> North Korean refugees" might result in being just a generous announcement
>>> followed by no concrete implementation.
>>>
>>> But on this point, you may have informations I ignore.
>>
>> Gee, Euro,I just wanted to get Dezis attentio and have a little jerk into
>> a KKKleenex..why you go complicatin thing's now?
>
>Sad, sad, Shit-For-Brains ...
>
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |desmond [at] zeouane [dot] org
>Yamaha YZF-R1 (2002)
>http://www.fruffrant.com/gimmicks/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Tell me Jigsaw...
>Date: 31 Jul 2003 13:54:45 GMT
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>
Dolly B. Coughlan Jr, the legend continues!
Welcome to the Desmond Coughlan archive.
As Desi lies, the archive grows!
Euro
"Jigsaw1695" <jigsa...@earthlink.net>
??????:3YaWa.127069$Io.10...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
What I am saying, is that, when you affirm that "the European community has
so far refused to give any
aid or assistance to the North Korean refugees", you talk about things you
don't know.
And that leads you to eventually tell lies.
Euro
Euro
"Jigsaw1695" <jigsa...@earthlink.net>
??????:2WaWa.127062$Io.10...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Has the US so far admitted any?
How will it do it, with no diplomatic representation in North Korea?
I'm surprised you skipped the questions: they are the key to determine
whether what you posted are just words, or will be translated into deeds. So
far, all I can see is that you have no clue whether it will be effectual or
not.
Euro
Jigsaw1695
=======
All well and good Euro....but...... How many EU countries have admitted
North Korean
Refugees?
How many EU countries have even considered admitting North Korean refugees?
Jigsaw
Jigsaw1695
==
You are correct on one count Euro. The US and the North Korea have no
diplomatic relations.
However, you are also wrong, and when you are wrong, you are very wrong.
The US and China do have diplomatic relations, and that's where the North
Korean refugees are coming from....
Cerberus
"Jigsaw1695" <jigsa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:2WmWa.128127$Io.10...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
:
: "Euro" <vs...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
: news:f480aa84b986bbff...@news.meganetnews.com...
: >
: > "Jigsaw1695" <jigsa...@earthlink.net>
: > ??????:2WaWa.127062$Io.10...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
: > >
: > > "Euro" <vs...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
: > > news:91b27171e6ac98ff...@news.meganetnews.com...
: > > >
: > > > "Jigsaw1695" <jigsa...@earthlink.net>
: > > > ??????:LO8Wa.126822$Io.10...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
: > > > >
: > > > > "Euro" <vs...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
: > > > > news:c1ef20d47cfb765b...@news.meganetnews.com...
{snip}
:
: You are correct on one count Euro. The US and the North Korea have no
: diplomatic relations.
:
: However, you are also wrong, and when you are wrong, you are very wrong.
: The US and China do have diplomatic relations, and that's where the North
: Korean refugees are coming from....
Jigsaw #2 posted this
--
WooF w00f WooF
----== Posted via Usenet.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.Usenet.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
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Euro
"Jigsaw1695" <jigsa...@earthlink.net>
??????:2WmWa.128127$Io.10...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
And that's where you are wrong, Jigsaw. China is far from being liberal in
its policy towards North Korean refugees. If you count on the North Koreans
to transit through China, don't expect "a flood".
For your information, South Korea has accepted in 2001 some 300 North
Koreans, most of them having transited through China.
Is that a flood?
Euro
A Planet Visitor
Given your past record in offering flights of fancy, perhaps you can provide
a source for your claim. It seems that the U.S. food aid to North Korea this
year, totals 110,000 metric tons... down from 200,000 metric tons last year
because of North Korea's intransigence concerning its nuclear program.
While all I can find from the EU this year, is 50,000 metric tons pledged,
and I do not know how much of that has actually been delivered.
>Talking about the EU's "refusal to give any aid or assistance" to the North
>Koreans is, thus, total inaccuracy.
>
We'll need a source, euro. One of my sources is
http://www.thesundaymail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,5518489%255E401,00.html
A source which also rather ignores the EU, and claims that the three largest
food donors are the United States, South Korea and Japan. There is no
doubt that North Korea faces yet another round of catastrophic famine, should
no efforts be made to provide sufficient food relief. And I believe imports
of food aid should not be affected by its nuclear policy. But I am interested
in what your source is that demonstrates the EU is providing more than 50%
of such food assistance to North Korea.
PV
>Euro
Euro
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq>
??????:d75piv4mkl5qhk1ji...@4ax.com...
LOL!!! The Sunday Mail!
> A source which also rather ignores the EU,
No wonder about this. The Sunday Mail is a Robert Murdoch edition well known
for its blatant europhobia.
and claims that the three largest
> food donors are the United States, South Korea and Japan. There is no
> doubt that North Korea faces yet another round of catastrophic famine,
should
> no efforts be made to provide sufficient food relief. And I believe
imports
> of food aid should not be affected by its nuclear policy. But I am
interested
> in what your source is that demonstrates the EU is providing more than 50%
> of such food assistance to North Korea.
My source is the UNFAO.
Euro
> PV
>
> >Euro
>
A Planet Visitor
Not that I don't believe you (ho ho ho), but given your past history of lying, you
will need to be more specific. When I go to the web presence of the UN FAO... see
http://www.fao.org/
I find no reference to any EU contributions to North Korea. While when doing a
search on "North Korea" from that web page, I find nothing more current than
articles from 2001, and no reference to any EU massive contribution of over 50%
of the food assistance to North Korea. And doing a search on "European Union"
I find nothing in respect to the EU providing food assistance to North Korea.
It's typical of you (and Earl), that when a reference doesn't please you, as the
source that I've provided (one of many I could have offered), you tend to insult the
provider of the reference itself, rather than have the capacity to refute the
information contained in the reference. In other words... you're still the slimy,
deceptive, ignorant child that I first recognized.
Further, see ..
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2003/17909.htm
You will note that it states that in respect to the U.S. food contributions to
North Korea -- "In 2002, our total contribution of 157,000 metric tons made
us the World Food Program’s largest donor to North Korea. That contribution
comprised 26 percent of the 611,000 metric tons the World Food Program
requested and more than half of the 303,000 metric tons it received."
There are many other references that reflect the U.S. being the leading
contributor of food to North Korea, which arrives from a variety of sources,
many routed through the U.N., but originating in the U.S. I believe that the
EU is well down the list of those providing food contributions to North Korea.
I suspect that the U.S., South Korea, Japan and China each contribute more
than then the EU.
PV
>Euro
Euro
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq>
??????:8sjtivgu7o3n9ujcu...@4ax.com...(snipped)
> I suspect that the U.S., South Korea, Japan and China each contribute more
> than then the EU.
>
> PV
Just like you "suspect" the US is a more important contributor of official
development assistance than the EU? Ho Ho Ho...
Euro
Jigsaw1695
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
news:8sjtivgu7o3n9ujcu...@4ax.com...
The DRNK news outlets have made no reference to receiving any food from
Europe. They have acknowledged food from China and Russia.
It should also be kept in mind that for them to admited receiving food would
be to acknowledge their own agrarian failures.
Jigsaw
> PV
>
> >Euro
>
John Rennie
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
news:8sjtivgu7o3n9ujcu...@4ax.com...
That wouldn't surprise me if it were true. I believe a large section
of American agriculture is so dependent on supplying food 'aid' to
what used to be called 'third world' countries that if these countries
should be ever be able to feed themselves disaster would strike the
mid-West.
Jigsaw1695
"John Rennie" <j.re...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:XgKXa.21846$Id1.2...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
I seriously doubt if the so-called Third World countries will ever be able
to feed themselves.
A Planet Visitor
Damned if we do... and damned if we don't. Is that your best shot, John?
PV
>
A Planet Visitor
Given that you've provided nothing of substance in respect to your pathetic
whining about the EU 'contributions' to North Korea, I can assume that
you admit you lied in your claim.
Of course, you also 'suspect' that 'legal murder' is not a 'legal concept.'
That all zoophile commit bestiality. That it is reasonable to compare
slaves to murderers by presuming that slaves are murderers. And that
there is no gradation in your head between murderers and innocent
slaves.
PV
>Euro
>
John Rennie
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
snip
You don't deny what I posted? Perhaps I should add that those exports are
the reason that Bush is pushing the cause of GM crops especially when it
comes to exports to Africa. Africans in their turn are apprehensive that
the
acceptance of these crops will mean that they will become even more
dependent on such imports.
A Planet Visitor
What would be the sense of doing so? Since your opinion is obviously biased
and set in concrete. My point was that your 'argument' is simply the conclusion
that the U.S. IS damned if we do provide aid (presuming there is some sinister
plot behind it, which has nothing to do with any humanitarian effort), or damned
if we do not (which was the implication of euro... as he lied in trumpeting the
imaginary contributions of the EU).
> Perhaps I should add that those exports are
>the reason that Bush is pushing the cause of GM crops especially when it
>comes to exports to Africa. Africans in their turn are apprehensive that
>the
>acceptance of these crops will mean that they will become even more
>dependent on such imports.
>
Nonsense... the opposition to genetically modified crops comes totally from
the EU... raising the 'bogey-man' specter of the 'dangers' in those crops. This
is even tacitly accepted by the EU Directorate-General for Agriculture. See -
http://europa.eu.int/comm/agriculture/publi/gmo/execut.htm
Quoting when addressing the "Economic Impact" of GMO -- "Citizen and
consumer concerns on biotechnology have been echoed and amplified by
NGOs and retailers, in particular in Europe."
The production and distribution of genetically modified crops is an economic
issue, and one that adversely impacts the EU agriculture industry, which is
a lobbying force within the EU, that opposes GMO simply for economic
reasons. It is pressure applied in respect to economic well-being of the agriculture
industry in the EU, based on scare-them 'voodoo science' (jump in any time,
with some hysterical denials, Earl). This is rather inescapable, when the EU
itself states -- "In the EU, a prominent strategy of food processors is currently
to avoid or to restrict GM food."
PV
John Rennie
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
You must try to not confuse me with yourself. You merely have to present
facts that show that American agriculture is NOT dependent on the food
aid it provides to Africa in the main and I will accept them. I have
before
and no doubt I will again accept such refutations of my arguments.
Since your opinion is obviously biased
> and set in concrete. My point was that your 'argument' is simply the
conclusion
> that the U.S. IS damned if we do provide aid (presuming there is some
sinister
> plot behind it, which has nothing to do with any humanitarian effort), or
damned
> if we do not (which was the implication of euro... as he lied in
trumpeting the
> imaginary contributions of the EU).
Again you should not confuse my arguments with those of others.
>
> > Perhaps I should add that those exports are
> >the reason that Bush is pushing the cause of GM crops especially when it
> >comes to exports to Africa. Africans in their turn are apprehensive
that
> >the
> >acceptance of these crops will mean that they will become even more
> >dependent on such imports.
> >
> Nonsense... the opposition to genetically modified crops comes totally
from
> the EU..
No it doesn't. The Zambian President in particular has made a cogent
argument against importing GM crops. You are just not up-to-date on this
arguments because you rely too heavily on internet references and don't have
the benefit of the superb UK daily press.
. raising the 'bogey-man' specter of the 'dangers' in those crops. This
> is even tacitly accepted by the EU Directorate-General for Agriculture.
See -
> http://europa.eu.int/comm/agriculture/publi/gmo/execut.htm
> Quoting when addressing the "Economic Impact" of GMO -- "Citizen and
> consumer concerns on biotechnology have been echoed and amplified by
> NGOs and retailers, in particular in Europe."
>
> The production and distribution of genetically modified crops is an
economic
> issue, and one that adversely impacts the EU agriculture industry, which
is
> a lobbying force within the EU, that opposes GMO simply for economic
> reasons. It is pressure applied in respect to economic well-being of the
agriculture
> industry in the EU, based on scare-them 'voodoo science' (jump in any
time,
> with some hysterical denials, Earl). This is rather inescapable, when
the EU
> itself states -- "In the EU, a prominent strategy of food processors is
currently
> to avoid or to restrict GM food."
>
> PV
>
Certainly a great many UK shoppers will not by food contaminated by GM
processes and the retailers have to jump to their tune. Encouraging isn't
it?
Euro
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq>
??????:1n21jvsjjv02bh5ml...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:25:48 GMT, "Euro" <vs...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq>
> >??????:8sjtivgu7o3n9ujcu...@4ax.com...
> >> On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 23:30:00 GMT, "Euro" <vs...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >(snipped)
> >> I suspect that the U.S., South Korea, Japan and China each contribute
more
> >> than then the EU.
> >>
> >> PV
> >
> >Just like you "suspect" the US is a more important contributor of
official
> >development assistance than the EU? Ho Ho Ho...
> >
> Given that you've provided nothing of substance in respect to your
pathetic
> whining about the EU 'contributions' to North Korea, I can assume that
> you admit you lied in your claim.
Not at all. I can remind you, in return, that my internet references about
the help provided to developing countries by Europe compared to the US,
which were very convincing, only brought me your rantings.
Given that you consider precise internet references not to be of interest
when it suits you, I assume you have no interest in actually knowing the
truth.
So, why should I, once again, bring forward precise sources that don't
interest you? After all, if you're clever enough, you could find the
information by yourself.
Euro
A Planet Visitor
>
>"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq>
>??????:1n21jvsjjv02bh5ml...@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:25:48 GMT, "Euro" <vs...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq>
>> >??????:8sjtivgu7o3n9ujcu...@4ax.com...
>> >> On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 23:30:00 GMT, "Euro" <vs...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >(snipped)
>> >> I suspect that the U.S., South Korea, Japan and China each contribute
>more
>> >> than then the EU.
>> >>
>> >> PV
>> >
>> >Just like you "suspect" the US is a more important contributor of
>> >official
>> >development assistance than the EU? Ho Ho Ho...
>> >
>> Given that you've provided nothing of substance in respect to your
>> pathetic
>> whining about the EU 'contributions' to North Korea, I can assume that
>> you admit you lied in your claim.
>
>Not at all.
TRANSLATION ==> I intend to stand behind my lie, and see no reason
to even excuse myself for lying. <==
> I can remind you, in return, that my internet references about
>the help provided to developing countries by Europe compared to the US,
>which were very convincing, only brought me your rantings.
It brought forth some proof as to the distortions you would try to present. See --
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=cth9hvgar0b88koh2a7r4e57a8romaarq4%404ax.com
and
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=7VMQa.104592%24ic1.2152110%40twister.tampabay.rr.com
and
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=esg9hvoo03tvu1tmtf7jj93cvgcjuqh5jo%404ax.com
In fact, you were proven to actually insult everyone who has ever contributed
his personal time, money and effort toward helping less-developed countries.
You would again argue "Why should they?" in implying that such contributions
neither exist nor are relevant.
>Given that you consider precise internet references not to be of interest
>when it suits you, I assume you have no interest in actually knowing the
>truth.
>
Precise... but incomplete, since the reference you provided concerns itself
only with the transfer of government capital. And ignores completely
personal, corporate and non-profit agencies transfers of --
1) Capital.
2) Goods (Medical supplies, food, clothing, building and water
purification materials, educational materials, etc.).
3) Human resources (technical personnel of all sorts, medical
personnel, educators, distribution workers, administrators, etc).
>So, why should I, once again, bring forward precise sources that don't
>interest you? After all, if you're clever enough, you could find the
>information by yourself.
>
Heh.... an admission that no such precise source exists, other than in
your mind... and you are again caught in a deception.
PV
>Euro
A Planet Visitor
Actually, I believe it is YOUR argument that American agriculture IS
dependent on the food aid it provides to Africa. I'm afraid that it's
your task to prove your argument, rather than mine to disprove your
argument.
>> Since your opinion is obviously biased
>> and set in concrete. My point was that your 'argument' is simply the
>conclusion
>> that the U.S. IS damned if we do provide aid (presuming there is some
>sinister
>> plot behind it, which has nothing to do with any humanitarian effort), or
>damned
>> if we do not (which was the implication of euro... as he lied in
>trumpeting the
>> imaginary contributions of the EU).
>
>Again you should not confuse my arguments with those of others.
When arguments become similar in intent... it's difficult not to do so.
It seems that both arguments were meant to damn the U.S. Which
is what I said.
>>
>> > Perhaps I should add that those exports are
>> >the reason that Bush is pushing the cause of GM crops especially when it
>> >comes to exports to Africa. Africans in their turn are apprehensive
>that
>> >the
>> >acceptance of these crops will mean that they will become even more
>> >dependent on such imports.
>> >
>> Nonsense... the opposition to genetically modified crops comes totally
>from
>> the EU..
>
>No it doesn't. The Zambian President
LOL... The Zambian President?? And how much is he beholding to EU
interests?
> in particular has made a cogent
>argument against importing GM crops. You are just not up-to-date on this
>arguments because you rely too heavily on internet references and don't have
>the benefit of the superb UK daily press.
>
Once again... I must apologize... I didn't realize that this was STILL
the Nameless One forging the posts of John Rennie. :-)
John Rennie
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
snipped
>> >
> >You must try to not confuse me with yourself. You merely have to
present
> >facts that show that American agriculture is NOT dependent on the food
> >aid it provides to Africa in the main and I will accept them. I have
> >before
> >and no doubt I will again accept such refutations of my arguments.
>
> Actually, I believe it is YOUR argument that American agriculture IS
> dependent on the food aid it provides to Africa. I'm afraid that it's
> your task to prove your argument, rather than mine to disprove your
> argument.
I honestly didn't think I needed to 'prove' such an argument; I thought
it was uinversally accepted.
"Africa is largely dependent on agriculture for employment and exports,
according to the Corporate Council for Africa's recent publication "Africa
2002". But Africa's agricultural industry - already crippled by drought and
the spreading scourge of AIDS - is being undercut by cheap American food
exports, which are made possible by massive US government subsidies to the
American farm industry. "
http://www.dawn.com/2002/06/30/int10.htm
Er, Zambia is in Africa, PV - just north of Zimbabwe. It is a recipeint
of a large amount of grain from America not Europe.
Euro
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq>
??????:e6c5jvcqrra4mqguh...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 10:54:06 GMT, "Euro" <vs...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq>
> >??????:1n21jvsjjv02bh5ml...@4ax.com...
> >> On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:25:48 GMT, "Euro" <vs...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq>
> >> >??????:8sjtivgu7o3n9ujcu...@4ax.com...
> >> >> On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 23:30:00 GMT, "Euro" <vs...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >(snipped)
> >> >> I suspect that the U.S., South Korea, Japan and China each
contribute
> >more
> >> >> than then the EU.
> >> >>
> >> >> PV
> >> >
> >> >Just like you "suspect" the US is a more important contributor of
> >> >official
> >> >development assistance than the EU? Ho Ho Ho...
> >> >
> >> Given that you've provided nothing of substance in respect to your
> >> pathetic
> >> whining about the EU 'contributions' to North Korea, I can assume that
> >> you admit you lied in your claim.
> >
> >Not at all.
>
> TRANSLATION ==> I intend to stand behind my lie, and see no reason
> to even excuse myself for lying. <==
>
Conclusion: PV is just as stupid as those children who believe that
something they saw on TV must be true, so if they don't see it on TV it's
not true.
Likewise, if PV doesn't see it on the internet it mustn't be true. Of
course, for a single-minded person, it's just convenient.
Euro
A Planet Visitor
LOL... Is that the best insult you can provide, euro? I know you are famous
for providing posts empty of any intellectual content -- But it appears that
you don't even try here. Caught in a lie regarding your absurd claim as
to the EU's contributions to North Korea... having providing a URL
in which you were exposed as lying... all you can do is respond with a
meaningless paedomorphic insult. Now you would contend that you
might have seen it on TV... but the URL you pointed to as 'proof' of
your claim, actually proved you LIE. And what's even worse... you
find no shame when those lies of yours are exposed.
PV
>Euro
Euro
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq>
??????:b1hbjvc2g0to6duhu...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 11:11:54 GMT, "Euro" <vs...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Likewise, if PV doesn't see it on the internet it mustn't be true. Of
> >course, for a single-minded person, it's just convenient.
> >
> LOL... Is that the best insult you can provide, euro?
No, I can do better, but I don't want to compete on your favorite
playground. Besides, saying that you're single-minded is not an insult. It's
a mere observation.
Euro
A Planet Visitor
>
>"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
>news:9096jv0pst01jlj42...@4ax.com...
>
>snipped
>
>>> >
>> >You must try to not confuse me with yourself. You merely have to
>present
>> >facts that show that American agriculture is NOT dependent on the food
>> >aid it provides to Africa in the main and I will accept them. I have
>> >before
>> >and no doubt I will again accept such refutations of my arguments.
>>
>> Actually, I believe it is YOUR argument that American agriculture IS
>> dependent on the food aid it provides to Africa. I'm afraid that it's
>> your task to prove your argument, rather than mine to disprove your
>> argument.
>
>I honestly didn't think I needed to 'prove' such an argument; I thought
>it was uinversally accepted.
>
>"Africa is largely dependent on agriculture for employment and exports,
>according to the Corporate Council for Africa's recent publication "Africa
>2002". But Africa's agricultural industry - already crippled by drought and
>the spreading scourge of AIDS - is being undercut by cheap American food
>exports, which are made possible by massive US government subsidies to the
>American farm industry. "
>
>http://www.dawn.com/2002/06/30/int10.htm
>.
I have never seen a more biased argument presented by you, John.
"Pakistan's most widely circulated English language newspaper" Don't
make me laugh. If drought is crippling Africa's agricultural industry,
how do cheaper exports into those countries experiencing such drought
do anything other than alleviate hunger? The idea that cheaper imports,
and even donated food contributions are driving local farmers, whose
crops are non-existent as it is, into the city, is ludicrous on the face of
it, as far as I'm concerned. Nor does that have anything to do with
GMO.
I well know where Zambia is. That does not mean he is not beholden to
EU interests, anymore than Afghanistan being where it is, is not somewhat
beholden to U.S. interests in its present government. Nonetheless, if he
is a recipient of a large amount of grain from America, and not Europe,
what is he complaining about? I believe the point is that he might actually
still be beholden to EU interests, in opposing GMO.
PV
>
A Planet Visitor
If anyone of us is 'single-minded,' sport... it's you. Determined to love
murderers, by comparing them favorably to innocent slaves, and arguing
that ALL murderers (including John Wayne Gacy - murderer of about
30 children, having buried them in his backyard), are just like innocent
slaves. That ALL murderers have the SAME... equal 'human rights' as
every innocent slave, and saving one is no different from saving another.
While if forced to choose, you would save neither. I am reminded of
a bit obscure (to you), very ancient, classical paradox called "Buridan's
ass" (I may repeat this from time to time in your immoral refusal to choose
between murderers and innocent slaves - and instead permitting the
murderer to be executed and the slave to remain in a lifetime of slavery).
In short, the paradox has it that Buridan's ass was placed EXACTLY
the same distance between two very irresistible bales of hay. But being
placed EXACTLY between them, the ass could not choose which one to
go to... and thus he starved to death in indecision. You are Buridan's
ass, in your immoral refusal to head toward one or the other of what
you claim are irresistible allures of 'human rights.' Instead, you remain
frozen in place, and both the murderer is executed, and the innocent
slave remains in a lifetime of slavery.
PV
>Euro (alias Buridan's ass)
John Rennie
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
Neatly ignoring my argument that American agriculture is now
dependent on it's exports to Africa. Poverty stricken Africa
is bolstering American agriculture. You asked me to prove my
argument, I proved it so you ignored it. .Sttandard procedure
from yourself.
Ah yes, you 'believe'! Bugger the facts - just keep believing.
( A mirror image of Earl).
Euro
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq>
??????:tc3ejvkr2qekfefd2...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 04:28:09 GMT, "Euro" <vs...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq>
> >??????:b1hbjvc2g0to6duhu...@4ax.com...
> >> On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 11:11:54 GMT, "Euro" <vs...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Likewise, if PV doesn't see it on the internet it mustn't be true. Of
> >> >course, for a single-minded person, it's just convenient.
> >> >
> >> LOL... Is that the best insult you can provide, euro?
> >
> >No, I can do better, but I don't want to compete on your favorite
> >playground. Besides, saying that you're single-minded is not an insult.
It's
> >a mere observation.
> >
> If anyone of us is 'single-minded,' sport...
It's you.
Euro
(remaining verbal diarrhea snipped)
A Planet Visitor
>
>"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq>
>??????:tc3ejvkr2qekfefd2...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 04:28:09 GMT, "Euro" <vs...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq>
>> >??????:b1hbjvc2g0to6duhu...@4ax.com...
>> >> On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 11:11:54 GMT, "Euro" <vs...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Likewise, if PV doesn't see it on the internet it mustn't be true. Of
>> >> >course, for a single-minded person, it's just convenient.
>> >> >
>> >> LOL... Is that the best insult you can provide, euro?
>> >
>> >No, I can do better, but I don't want to compete on your favorite
>> >playground. Besides, saying that you're single-minded is not an insult.
>It's
>> >a mere observation.
>> >
>> If anyone of us is 'single-minded,' sport...
>
>It's you.
>
LOL... Reduced to pitiful nonsense again, euro? Given that you simply
refuse to actually discuss your own words, and have not been reduced to
the most obvious inability to form an intellectual thought... let me
again repeat some questions that you refuse to address --
1) Did you not state that in your mind there is no gradation between
murderers and innocent slaves? If not, please provide what you see
as such a gradation.
2) Did you not refuse to choose between 'saving' all murderers from
the DP, and abolishing the DP, or 'saving' all innocent slaves from
slavery, and abolishing slavery? Is that not an indication that you
find no difference between them, and are frozen, as Buridan's ass,
into an inability to choose between them, and have instead chosen
to starve morally, rather than make such a choice?
3) Do you find that John Wayne Gacy had the same... equal 'human
rights' as an innocent slave? If not... what difference do you find in
such 'human rights' between them?
4) Since you have claimed that I distort your view when I state that
you find no difference between murderers and innocent slaves.... please
state what difference you DO find between murderers and innocent
slaves?
5) If you do find a difference between murderers and innocent slaves,
then why can you not stop acting like Buridan's ass, and explain how
that difference can be translated into the difference between 'saving'
a murderer from lawful execution, and 'saving' an innocent slave
from a life of slavery?
6) Do you agree with the U.N., which has clearly stated in its International
Covenant on Human Rights that --
a) "No one shall be held in slavery;"
b) "In countries which have not abolished the death penalty, sentence of death
may be imposed only for the most serious crimes in accordance with the
law in force at the time of the commission of the crime..."
???????????
7) If you contend that murderers and innocent slaves do have the
same...equal 'human rights,' how do you reconcile your view
with the U.N. finding quite the opposite view? Since the U.N. does
NOT accept slavery in any form. But does accept that sovereign
nations may use the DP under conditions that the U.N. defines?
8) And why have your comments now simply disintegrated into
meaningless insults which address not a single one of the comments
you have previously made, or attempt to elaborate on your views
regarding the 'differences' you expect others to believe you find
between murderers and innocent slaves? Could it be that you
recognize how stupid and immoral your argument has been from
the beginning, when you claimed your opposition to the DP was
just like your opposition to slavery? An opposition in which even
the U.N. disagrees with you, sport.
PV
>Euro (alias Buridan's ass)
>
>(remaining verbal diarrhea snipped)
Another pathetic excuse for an inability to address the contradictory
pseudo-moralistic comments that have been drooling from your pen for
so often. In truth... your view is not about 'saving' murderers or 'saving'
innocent slaves... since you have stated clearly that you don't give a
shit about either of them. It is simply about your pretending to be
a 'moralistic' poster... when you are actually an immoral beast, who
would condemn BOTH murderers and innocent slaves before moving
from a centrist view that cannot be justified.