Jews Strive To Restore Christmas Trees At Seattle Airport
Sound of Trumpet
12.11.2006 Jews Strive to Restore Christmas Trees
Jews Strive to Restore Sea-Tac Airport's Christmas Trees
By Rabbi Daniel Lapin
Well here we go again. It is so utterly predictable. Like clockwork.
It's December and time for another skirmish in the annual battle
against Christmas. What compels me to comment is that this time it's
not the usual secular fanatic who's responsible for doing things that
evict Christianity from the culture. No, on this sad and alarming
occasion it's a deeply religious, well-intentioned rabbi who has
unwittingly stumbled into a situation that will place his denomination
(and mine)-Orthodox Judaism-in a terrible, negative light.
For at least ten years, Sea-Tac Airport near Seattle has displayed
several large, beautifully decorated Christmas trees each December.
With lawyer in tow, a local rabbi recently threatened to sue the Port
of Seattle if the airport didn't add a Chanukah menorah to the holiday
display.
Yielding to the ultimatum was not an option for airport management,
skittish at the best of times since 9-11. Understandably, they
interpreted the rabbi's threat as only the first. It would not be
hard to imagine Seattle's Islamic community stepping forward with
their own lawyer to demand a Moslem symbol be included as well.
With deft turn of phrase, Sea-Tac public affairs manager Terri-Ann
Betancourt explained that at the busiest travel time of the year, while
Sea-Tac was focused on getting passengers through the airport, she and
her staff didn't have time "to play cultural anthropologists."
Threatening a lawsuit, I feel, violates the Jewish principle known in
Hebrew as Kiddush HaShem, interpreted in the Talmud, part of ancient
Jewish wisdom, as an action that encourages people to admire Jews. One
need only read the comments on the Internet following the news accounts
of the tree removal, to know that most people are feeling indignant and
hurt. They certainly are not feeling more warmly toward Jews as a
result of this mess.
Here I disclose that I know the rabbi involved, am friendly with him,
and am sure that he didn't intend this outcome. I like him, which
makes it painful for me to point out that when one throws a punch
(which is what bringing a lawyer and threatening to sue is equivalent
to) and one gets decked in return, one cannot plead that one didn't
intend that outcome.
The outcome, whether intended or not, is that now vast numbers of
passengers, most of whom are probably Christian, will be deprived of
the cheerful holiday sight of pretty Christmas trees. What is more,
they will know that their deprivation was caused by a Jewish rabbi.
The rabbi's lawyer told a television reporter, "There is a concern
here that the Jewish community will be portrayed as the Grinch."
No, Mr. Lawyer, it is not that Jews will be "portrayed" as the
grinch. Sadly, now we are the grinch. You made us the grinch.
Now what is to be done? I have three requests:
I am asking every reader of this column to sign a petition on the
Toward Tradition website beseeching Sea-Tac management to restore the
Christmas trees.
I am asking every reader of this column to forward it to others who
might be willing to sign this petition.
I am asking Jews in the Puget Sound region to join national radio host,
Michael Medved, and me in offering our volunteer labor to Sea-Tac. We
hope they will allow us to provide the labor necessary for replacing
the trees so that airport staff need not be deflected from their
important duties.
Why am I, an Orthodox Jewish rabbi, so concerned about a few Christmas
trees? Not for a moment do I believe that American Christians will
react to this insult with a flurry of anti-Semitic activity. But I do
feel certain that perhaps in some small way, expelling Christmas
symbolism from the airport makes it just a little harder to protect
America's Christian nature.
For centuries, we Jews suffered in a Europe governed by ecclesiastical
authority. We suffered no less under the secular tyrannies of
communism. Now, in post-Christian Europe, where both government and
population are increasingly secular, anti-Semitism is dramatically on
the rise. In short, we have never thrived under religious government
or within secular cultures.
During the past two thousand years of Jewish history Jews have never
enjoyed a more hospitable home than we enjoy here in the United States
of America.
This is because we have a religiously neutral government and a largely
religious Christian population. Most American Christians love Jews and
support Israel unconditionally because of their commitment to the Bible
and the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Evidence from across the
Atlantic persuades me that our lot will deteriorate if America's
population gradually becomes secularized and removing the Christmas
trees makes that disturbing likelihood, over time, more probable. Yes,
public symbols are very important.
Years ago we Jews advocated for full equality. Today, with thirteen
Jewish United States senators, over thirty Jewish congressmen, two Jews
on the Supreme Court, and disproportionate Jewish representation in
media and entertainment, one could reasonably say we have achieved it.
But back then, the only culture in America was Christian. Today,
however, America is home to many faiths, not all of them friendly
towards Judaism.
Today, agitating for Jewish religious representation in the culture
inevitably results not in equating Judaism with Christianity but the
removal of both Judaism and Christianity. In other words, pushing for
the menorah means removal of the Christmas tree and the triumph of
secularism. Europe, both past and present, teaches us that if America
becomes secularized, Jews suffer.
For fifteen years I have insisted that for Jews to oppose Christianity
in America is a mistake. The world today is populated by millions who
harbor festering hatred for Jews. There remains one group of people
who love and support us and they are America's Evangelical
Christians. What possible sense does it make to fight your friends by
stripping their symbols from sight?
When the Moslems invaded Spain, one of their first actions was the
removal of all Christian symbols from public view. Secularism's
invasion of America is attempting exactly the same strategy. I implore
American Jews not to ally themselves with this ill-fated campaign.
We are less than a week from the Jewish holiday of Chanukah during
which our most important religious observance revolves around the
blessings we say over the Menorah. In doing so, we oppose the still
prevalent and ever more dangerous force of secularism.
When times change, unlike dinosaurs, wise organisms adapt. We should
recognize that we all have a stake in protecting Christian symbolism in
the village square (or the airport). The only alternative will be no
religious symbolism at all and make no mistake, secularism's rise is
Judaism's decline.
I spoke to the rabbi involved today and he is genuinely unhappy with
the decision of Sea-Tac airport. I invited him to join the Toward
Tradition petition and I hope he will do so. I urge you also to do
whatever you can to help bring back Sea-Tac Airport's Christmas
trees. Let us all show that we care.
Exactly thirteen years ago, a brick was thrown through a Jewish
home's window in Billings, Montana because inside that window was
displayed a menorah. Within days, over six thousand Christian homes in
Billings protested that anti-religious bigotry by displaying menorahs
in their windows.
I am not suggesting that Jews express their support by displaying
Christmas trees in their windows but I am suggesting that Jews fulfill
the spirit of Chanukah by supporting public expressions of the other
Biblical faith. I don't think that the airport was guilty of
anti-religious bigotry but a weakening of Christianity in America could
become a huge threat. For a start, let us try to restore Sea-Tac
Airport's Christmas trees.
Toward Tradition president, Rabbi Daniel Lapin, is a noted rabbinic
scholar and national public speaker. His radio show broadcasts live
over the Internet on KSFO San Francisco each Sunday 1-4pm PST and is
the author of three best-selling books, Thou Shall Prosper, America's
Real War and Buried Treasure.
Mike Hunt
but he wanted representation of his religion a this public facility.
That request was denied, even though the last Supreme Court case on the
subject agreed with the Rabbi.
The fact that the airport management took down the Christmas ornaments
leads me to believe that they knew they were in violation of that ruling
. Why didn't they simply allow the Menorah to be displayed? Could it be
they are anti-semitic
Anarcissie
The Christmas tree is a pagan symbol anyway. It is not Christian.
Mxsmanic
> The fact that the airport management took down the Christmas ornaments
> leads me to believe that they knew they were in violation of that ruling
> . Why didn't they simply allow the Menorah to be displayed? Could it be
> they are anti-semitic
Christmas is a secular holiday in the United States. Jewish and
Muslim and other religious holidays are not. If one religious holiday
is acknowledge, they all must be. Christmas is not included because
it's not really a religious holiday in the U.S. (really just a time to
have parties and food and presents).
Of course, with events like this, antisemitism is only encouraged, or
sometimes perhaps even engendered where it didn't exist before.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Mike Hunt
> Mike Hunt writes:
>
>
>>The fact that the airport management took down the Christmas ornaments
>>leads me to believe that they knew they were in violation of that ruling
>>. Why didn't they simply allow the Menorah to be displayed? Could it be
>>they are anti-semitic
>
>
> Christmas is a secular holiday in the United States. Jewish and
> Muslim and other religious holidays are not.
For many Jewish people, the same is true of Hanukah
Anarcissie
I read that the "Christmas" trees have now been restored.
It would help if Christians would acknowledge that the
Christmas tree is non-Christian. Alternatively, they could
go on believing that it is right for them to impose their
religion on everyone else, as they have in the past, but
be more open about it: 'Here's a Christmas tree in your
face, because we have the power to put it there."
Mark K. Bilbo
It was a good, grandstanding way of getting what they wanted. I understand
that the trees are coming back.
I notice nobody asking why it is tax money has to be spent on ornaments
rather than silly things like, you know, fixing potholes or even something
really absurd like airport security...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
"Creationists criticize evolutionists for the demeaning idea
of 'coming from apes' and say that man is more noble than
that, and then have sermons where man is called a miserable
worm worthy to be burned eternally in hell."
-William Bagley
Dan Clore
That's just one of the ironies of the "war on Christmas"
idiots -- they focus on stuff borrowed from pagan religions.
--
Dan Clore
My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
http://amazon.com/o/ASIN/1587154838/ref=nosim/thedanclorenecro
Lord Weÿrdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/clorebeast/
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"
fla...@verizon.net
Which, while true, doesn't change anything.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 12-Dec-2006, Dan Clore <cl...@columbia-center.org> wrote:
> > The Christmas tree is a pagan symbol anyway. It is not Christian.
>
> That's just one of the ironies of the "war on Christmas"
> idiots -- they focus on stuff borrowed from pagan religions.
Yes, it *is* hysterical that the ones who insist they
are upholding Xmas the most are actually using
pagan derived symbols to do it.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 11-Dec-2006, Mxsmanic <mxsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Christmas is a secular holiday in the United States.
Except for that holy day of obligation & all that.
[nip rest of crap to other stupidity]
> Of course, with events like this, antisemitism is only encouraged, or
> sometimes perhaps even engendered where it didn't exist before.
We are not frightened by this age-old, and still lame, threat.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 12-Dec-2006, "Anarcissie" <anarc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It would help if Christians would acknowledge that the
> Christmas tree is non-Christian.
They OLNLY do this when someone complains about them
forcing their religion on everyone.
In which case I usually answre "Okay, stop forcing paganism on me."
They don't really like that, either.
> Alternatively, they could
> go on believing that it is right for them to impose their
> religion on everyone else, as they have in the past, but
> be more open about it: 'Here's a Christmas tree in your
> face, because we have the power to put it there."
They're not stupid enough to do that anymore.
Susan
Anarcissie
They do it; they just don't say it.
I think it is funny the way Christians talk about a "war
against Christmas" when in fact Christmas is a Christian
war against everybody else.
James A. Donald
> The issue isn't that the Rabbi wanted the Christmas
> ornaments removed, but he wanted representation of his
> religion a this public facility.
Christmas is a universal celebration, heavily celebrated
by pagans such as Chinese and Japanese. It is intended
to be universal - the slogan being "peace on earth and
goodwill to all men", not "Peace between Christians
while we make war on everyone else"
Whenever someone wishes you "happy holidays" he is
implicitly claiming that Christmas is "Peace between
Christians while we make war on everyone else", which if
the recipient happens to be a Christian, is an insult.
When someone launches a lawsuit, he is definitely
claiming that Christmas is "Peace between Christians
while we make war on everyone else" There is no
possibility of a peaceable end to such a lawsuit. If
they give him everything he demands, there will be long
queue of people making similar demands, concede and you
will be knee deep in litigation. The wiccans will
demand a giant phallus. The only escape from being
summoned before the courts is to chop down every
Christmas tree.
--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.
http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald
James A. Donald
> The issue isn't that the Rabbi wanted the Christmas
> ornaments removed, but he wanted representation of his
> religion a this public facility.
>
> That request was denied, even though the last Supreme
> Court case on the subject agreed with the Rabbi.
This may come as a big surprise, but some people do not
want to spend several million dollars on litigation.
There was no possibility of a settlement. If they gave
him less than he wants, they go to court. If they give
him everything he wants, everyone lines up asking for a
piece of the action.
Mxsmanic
> For many Jewish people, the same is true of Hanukah
Then there should be no problem trading it for a similar holiday at a
similar time of year. Especially since the majority of the population
prefers Christmas trees to menorahs.
Mxsmanic
> Except for that holy day of obligation & all that.
I've never heard of that. What is it?
> We are not frightened by this age-old, and still lame, threat.
"We"?
It's not a threat, it's an observation. If you want people to like
you, you should avoid doing things that alienate them.
Ben Kaufman
They should get "rose colored glasses" with little Xmas trees painted on the
lenses. This way everyone would be happy. :-)
Ben
Sancho Panza
"Mxsmanic" <mxsm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cplun29qe4m8aq86o...@4ax.com...
> fla...@verizon.net writes:
>
> > Except for that holy day of obligation & all that.
>
> I've never heard of that. What is it?
>
> > We are not frightened by this age-old, and still lame, threat.
>
> "We"?
>
> It's not a threat, it's an observation. If you want people to like
> you, you should avoid doing things that alienate them.
Is that referring to Christians, Jews, Muslims or just who?
Sancho Panza
"James A. Donald" <jam...@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:kjfun2t0j38kou52k...@4ax.com...
> Mike Hunt
> > The issue isn't that the Rabbi wanted the Christmas
> > ornaments removed, but he wanted representation of his
> > religion a this public facility.
>
> Christmas is a universal celebration, heavily celebrated
> by pagans such as Chinese and Japanese. It is intended
A noble sentiment, but far far far from anywhere near reality. Lots of luck
trying to promote it.
Mxsmanic
> Is that referring to Christians, Jews, Muslims or just who?
It refers to human beings in general. Very few people are capable of
being kind and fair to people they dislike.
Tchiowa
Could it be because the official national holiday is Christmas, not
Hannukah? Putting up a menorrah for Christmas makes no more sense than
putting up an Easter Bunny for Halloween. Wrong holiday.
Should there be a Jewish holiday? Should the US have a holiday for the
Eid that ends Ramadan? Maybe. But that's another issue. We have a
holiday that celebrates Christmas and like it our not this is a
Christian holiday. If someone doesn't like it he doesn't have to
participate. But unless you want to try to ban Christmas then people
should grow up and leave it alone.
Sancho Panza
> Sancho Panza writes:
>
> > Is that referring to Christians, Jews, Muslims or just who?
>
> It refers to human beings in general. Very few people are capable of
> being kind and fair to people they dislike.
Do Jews or Buddhists or Taoists "dislike" the other groups in the sense that
they are "disliked" by others?
James A. Donald
> > Christmas is a universal celebration, heavily
> > celebrated by pagans such as Chinese and Japanese.
> > It is intended to be universal.
"Sancho Panza"
> A noble sentiment, but far far far from anywhere near
> reality.
Observe Singapore at Christmas time. Christmas is
universal, except among those nursing grievances against
Christianity and Christians. If you wish a Singaporean
ancestor worshipper "happy holidays" he will wonder if
you have checked your calendar lately.
comp...@hotmail.com
After this, most people are beginning to understand why Hitler wanted
the jews removed from his country.
>
> Here I disclose that I know the rabbi involved, am friendly with him,
> and am sure that he didn't intend this outcome. I like him, which
> makes it painful for me to point out that when one throws a punch
> (which is what bringing a lawyer and threatening to sue is equivalent
> to) and one gets decked in return, one cannot plead that one didn't
> intend that outcome.
>
> The outcome, whether intended or not, is that now vast numbers of
> passengers, most of whom are probably Christian, will be deprived of
> the cheerful holiday sight of pretty Christmas trees. What is more,
> they will know that their deprivation was caused by a Jewish rabbi.
> The rabbi's lawyer told a television reporter, "There is a concern
> here that the Jewish community will be portrayed as the Grinch."
Try assholes.
>
> No, Mr. Lawyer, it is not that Jews will be "portrayed" as the
> grinch. Sadly, now we are the grinch. You made us the grinch.
>
> Now what is to be done? I have three requests:
Too late. You people have proven yourselves to be petty pieces of
shit.
And this is how you repay us. What pieces of shit you are.
>
> This is because we have a religiously neutral government and a largely
> religious Christian population. Most American Christians love Jews and
> support Israel unconditionally because of their commitment to the Bible
> and the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Evidence from across the
> Atlantic persuades me that our lot will deteriorate if America's
> population gradually becomes secularized and removing the Christmas
> trees makes that disturbing likelihood, over time, more probable. Yes,
> public symbols are very important.
>
> Years ago we Jews advocated for full equality. Today, with thirteen
> Jewish United States senators, over thirty Jewish congressmen, two Jews
> on the Supreme Court, and disproportionate Jewish representation in
> media and entertainment, one could reasonably say we have achieved it.
> But back then, the only culture in America was Christian. Today,
> however, America is home to many faiths, not all of them friendly
> towards Judaism.
>
> Today, agitating for Jewish religious representation in the culture
> inevitably results not in equating Judaism with Christianity but the
> removal of both Judaism and Christianity. In other words, pushing for
> the menorah means removal of the Christmas tree and the triumph of
> secularism. Europe, both past and present, teaches us that if America
> becomes secularized, Jews suffer.
>
> For fifteen years I have insisted that for Jews to oppose Christianity
> in America is a mistake. The world today is populated by millions who
> harbor festering hatred for Jews. There remains one group of people
Could it be because you're fucking petty assholes.
> who love and support us and they are America's Evangelical
> Christians. What possible sense does it make to fight your friends by
> stripping their symbols from sight?
>
> When the Moslems invaded Spain, one of their first actions was the
> removal of all Christian symbols from public view. Secularism's
> invasion of America is attempting exactly the same strategy. I implore
> American Jews not to ally themselves with this ill-fated campaign.
>
> We are less than a week from the Jewish holiday of Chanukah during
> which our most important religious observance revolves around the
> blessings we say over the Menorah. In doing so, we oppose the still
> prevalent and ever more dangerous force of secularism.
>
> When times change, unlike dinosaurs, wise organisms adapt. We should
> recognize that we all have a stake in protecting Christian symbolism in
> the village square (or the airport). The only alternative will be no
> religious symbolism at all and make no mistake, secularism's rise is
> Judaism's decline.
>
> I spoke to the rabbi involved today and he is genuinely unhappy with
> the decision of Sea-Tac airport. I invited him to join the Toward
Why, because it makes him look like an idiot. Tell him to take his ass
back to
israel and stick his manure a up his ass.
> Tradition petition and I hope he will do so. I urge you also to do
> whatever you can to help bring back Sea-Tac Airport's Christmas
> trees. Let us all show that we care.
>
> Exactly thirteen years ago, a brick was thrown through a Jewish
> home's window in Billings, Montana because inside that window was
> displayed a menorah. Within days, over six thousand Christian homes in
> Billings protested that anti-religious bigotry by displaying menorahs
> in their windows.
>
> I am not suggesting that Jews express their support by displaying
> Christmas trees in their windows but I am suggesting that Jews fulfill
> the spirit of Chanukah by supporting public expressions of the other
> Biblical faith. I don't think that the airport was guilty of
> anti-religious bigotry but a weakening of Christianity in America could
> become a huge threat. For a start, let us try to restore Sea-Tac
> Airport's Christmas trees.
>
>
>
>
>
> Toward Tradition president, Rabbi Daniel Lapin, is a noted rabbinic
> scholar and national public speaker. His radio show broadcasts live
> over the Internet on KSFO San Francisco each Sunday 1-4pm PST and is
> the author of three best-selling books, Thou Shall Prosper, America's
> Real War and Buried Treasure.
I as well as others are beginning to understand why Hitler hated the
jews.
fla...@verizon.net
On 12-Dec-2006, "Sancho Panza" <otter...@xhotmail.com> wrote:
> "Mxsmanic" <mxsm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:cplun29qe4m8aq86o...@4ax.com...
> > fla...@verizon.net writes:
> >
> > > Except for that holy day of obligation & all that.
> >
> > I've never heard of that. What is it?
It's what Xmas is.
> >
> > > We are not frightened by this age-old, and still lame, threat.
> >
> > "We"?
> >
> > It's not a threat, it's an observation.
Oh, yeah, I believe that.
> > If you want people to like
> > you, you should avoid doing things that alienate them.
>
Which is not really what was said, either - but is still a threat,
given that he refuses to apply it the other way around.
> Is that referring to Christians, Jews, Muslims or just who?
He'll pretend it's all people, but it's something that his ilk has
told Jews time and again. "Behave or we'll kill you", "behave"
meaning "accept any crap we throw at you."
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 12-Dec-2006, "Sancho Panza" <otter...@xhotmail.com> wrote:
And why is it that he refuses to aplly to XIans what he is, in this
instance, applying to Jews (& only pretending to apply to others)?
Why is it that he automatically puts Xians in the place of doling
out the kindness and "others" in the poition of EARNING it - and
NOT the other way around.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
Of course.
Same as when they scream that "their rights are being violated".
It's *always* a case of their "rights" to force their religion on
everyone else.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 12-Dec-2006, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
> Mike Hunt
> > The issue isn't that the Rabbi wanted the Christmas
> > ornaments removed, but he wanted representation of his
> > religion a this public facility.
>
> Christmas is a universal celebration,
No, it is not.
The fact that some people have secularized it changes nothing.
Any XIan who is insulted by "Happy Holidays" is exactly the
sort of arrogant bigot we are complaining about.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 12-Dec-2006, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
> "James A. Donald"
> > > Christmas is a universal celebration, heavily
> > > celebrated by pagans such as Chinese and Japanese.
> > > It is intended to be universal.
>
> "Sancho Panza"
> > A noble sentiment, but far far far from anywhere near
> > reality.
>
> Observe Singapore at Christmas time.
Which means only that they have taken the secular aspects
they like and abandoned the rest - which is the real affront to
Xmas.
> Christmas is
> universal, except among those nursing grievances against
> Christianity and Christians.
Anyone who thinks this is the one nursing grievances.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 12-Dec-2006, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
> Mike Hunt
> > The issue isn't that the Rabbi wanted the Christmas
> > ornaments removed, but he wanted representation of his
> > religion a this public facility.
> >
> > That request was denied, even though the last Supreme
> > Court case on the subject agreed with the Rabbi.
>
> This may come as a big surprise, but some people do not
> want to spend several million dollars on litigation.
So they should have accomodated him they they*should* have.
>
> There was no possibility of a settlement.
There was no initial threat of a lawsuit, either.
I read the article - you obviously didn't.
If they gave
> him less than he wants, they go to court. If they give
> him everything he wants, everyone lines up asking for a
> piece of the action.
IOW, rather than be asinclusive as they should be, they screwed the Xians.
Susan
Ben Kaufman
The Nationally recognized holiday of Christmas is one day, December 25th, not
the latter part of November through December.
Ben
Robibnikoff
> Mike Hunt writes:
>
>> For many Jewish people, the same is true of Hanukah
>
> Then there should be no problem trading it for a similar holiday at a
> similar time of year. Especially since the majority of the population
> prefers Christmas trees to menorahs.
Shit, I'd rather have a menorah. Doesn't take up my entire living room,
doesn't need to be watered and doesn't shed pine needles all over the
freakin' floor.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
I think religion is so popular because even the village idiot can feel like
Einstein without any effort. - Denis Loubet
Al Klein
<spaXm-mXe-anXd-p...@pobox.com> wrote:
>The Nationally recognized holiday of Christmas is one day, December 25th, not
>the latter part of November through December.
Or, as is becoming in the retail world, the day after Labor Day to the
end of January.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"They laughed at Newton, they laughed at Einstein, but they also laughed at
Bozo the Clown."
- Carl Sagan
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
James A. Donald
"James A. Donald"
> > > > Christmas is a universal celebration, heavily
> > > > celebrated by pagans such as Chinese and
> > > > Japanese. It is intended to be universal.
"Sancho Panza"
> > > A noble sentiment, but far far far from anywhere
> > > near reality.
James A. Donald:
> > Observe Singapore at Christmas time.
> Which means only that they have taken the secular
> aspects they like and abandoned the rest - which is
> the real affront to Xmas.
But you guys are trying to suppress even the secular
aspects of Christmas - you were suing against the
display of Christmas trees, not the display of stables
and mangers. You are suing against the stuff that
people see in Singapore
"James A. Donald"
> > Christmas is universal, except among those nursing
> > grievances against Christianity and Christians.
> Anyone who thinks this is the one nursing grievances.
The remarks made by the posters in this thread
demonstrate the truth of what I said.
James A. Donald
> > > The issue isn't that the Rabbi wanted the
> > > Christmas ornaments removed, but he wanted
> > > representation of his religion a this public
> > > facility.
James A. Donald:
> > Christmas is a universal celebration,
> No, it is not. The fact that some people have
> secularized it changes nothing.
So you are worried that people might look at the
Christmas tree and THINK of a manger?
Sure sounds like war on Christmas.
James A. Donald
> So they should have accomodated him they they*should*
> have.
If someone is offended by Christmas, you cannot
accommodate him except by canceling Christmas, for if
you accommodate him by making some particular changes,
there is no end of people demanding additional
particular changes.
It is like negotiating with the Palestinians. You cut a
deal with the PLO, and then they say "thanks, and now for
the demands of Hamas: ..." If you begin, there is no end.
Cary Kittrell
> Mike Hunt
> > > > The issue isn't that the Rabbi wanted the
> > > > Christmas ornaments removed, but he wanted
> > > > representation of his religion a this public
> > > > facility.
>
> James A. Donald:
> > > Christmas is a universal celebration,
>
> fla...@verizon.net
> > No, it is not. The fact that some people have
> > secularized it changes nothing.
>
> So you are worried that people might look at the
> Christmas tree and THINK of a manger?
>
> Sure sounds like war on Christmas.
Sounds like a bar fight against Christmas -- an
isolated incident. A war would be large
numbers of complaints or lawsuits against
displays which contain no specifically
Christian symbolism. Yet this is the only
story of this nature I am aware of which
did not involve things such a manger, wise
men, or other related icons.
-- cary
dsha...@gmail.com
> > > > > Christmas is a universal celebration, heavily
> > > > > celebrated by pagans such as Chinese and
> > > > > Japanese. It is intended to be universal.
Christmas is a Christian holiday.
> James A. Donald:
> > > Observe Singapore at Christmas time.
Observe Riyadh at Christmas time.
James A. Donald wrote:
> But you guys are trying to suppress even the secular
> aspects of Christmas - you were suing against the
> display of Christmas trees
Who was suing against what display of Xmas trees? The ones in SEATAC?
> The remarks made by the posters in this thread
> demonstrate the truth of what I said.
The remarks by a number of posters to these NGs demonstrate that they
don't know their asses from their elbows. Your point?
Deborah
Al Klein
<jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
>Mike Hunt
>> > > The issue isn't that the Rabbi wanted the
>> > > Christmas ornaments removed, but he wanted
>> > > representation of his religion a this public
>> > > facility.
>
>James A. Donald:
>> > Christmas is a universal celebration,
>
>fla...@verizon.net
>> No, it is not. The fact that some people have
>> secularized it changes nothing.
>
>So you are worried that people might look at the
>Christmas tree and THINK of a manger?
What part of "NO law" confuses you? It doesn't say "no law that makes
people think of mangers".
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"For aught we know a priori, matter may contain the source, or spring, of order
originating within itself, as well as the mind does."
- David Hume, Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion
Mxsmanic
> It is like negotiating with the Palestinians.
Maybe. It can't be like the Israelis, since they refuse to negotiate.
Robert Cohen
very big deal
10. If the tree is plastic or aluminum , then that's greatttt, because
plastic or aluminum is sooo coool
9. The beautifully-wrapped boxes under the tree make Warhol collector
hearts a-flutter
8. The elegant fake tree, the terrific tinsel, the semi-gaudy lights,
the sugar plum fairies attached to mini-snowmen with candy canes, and
all the other swell, imaginative doo-dads are so much about our global
world's ...ornament sweat-shops including child labor.
7. Hey, if somebody insists on seeing a Menorah on display, then go to
a kitchy synagogue with colorful shammes.
> Here I disclose that I know the rabbi involved, am friendly with him,
> and am sure that he didn't intend this outcome. I like him, which
> makes it painful for me to point out that when one throws a punch
> (which is what bringing a lawyer and threatening to sue is equivalent
> to) and one gets decked in return, one cannot plead that one didn't
> intend that outcome.
>
> The outcome, whether intended or not, is that now vast numbers of
> passengers, most of whom are probably Christian, will be deprived of
> the cheerful holiday sight of pretty Christmas trees. What is more,
> they will know that their deprivation was caused by a Jewish rabbi.
> The rabbi's lawyer told a television reporter, "There is a concern
> here that the Jewish community will be portrayed as the Grinch."
>
> No, Mr. Lawyer, it is not that Jews will be "portrayed" as the
> grinch. Sadly, now we are the grinch. You made us the grinch.
>
> Now what is to be done? I have three requests:
>
> This is because we have a religiously neutral government and a largely
> religious Christian population. Most American Christians love Jews and
> support Israel unconditionally because of their commitment to the Bible
> and the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Evidence from across the
> Atlantic persuades me that our lot will deteriorate if America's
> population gradually becomes secularized and removing the Christmas
> trees makes that disturbing likelihood, over time, more probable. Yes,
> public symbols are very important.
>
> Years ago we Jews advocated for full equality. Today, with thirteen
> Jewish United States senators, over thirty Jewish congressmen, two Jews
> on the Supreme Court, and disproportionate Jewish representation in
> media and entertainment, one could reasonably say we have achieved it.
> But back then, the only culture in America was Christian. Today,
> however, America is home to many faiths, not all of them friendly
> towards Judaism.
>
> Today, agitating for Jewish religious representation in the culture
> inevitably results not in equating Judaism with Christianity but the
> removal of both Judaism and Christianity. In other words, pushing for
> the menorah means removal of the Christmas tree and the triumph of
> secularism. Europe, both past and present, teaches us that if America
> becomes secularized, Jews suffer.
>
> For fifteen years I have insisted that for Jews to oppose Christianity
> in America is a mistake. The world today is populated by millions who
> harbor festering hatred for Jews. There remains one group of people
> who love and support us and they are America's Evangelical
> Christians. What possible sense does it make to fight your friends by
> stripping their symbols from sight?
>
> When the Moslems invaded Spain, one of their first actions was the
> removal of all Christian symbols from public view. Secularism's
> invasion of America is attempting exactly the same strategy. I implore
> American Jews not to ally themselves with this ill-fated campaign.
>
> We are less than a week from the Jewish holiday of Chanukah during
> which our most important religious observance revolves around the
> blessings we say over the Menorah. In doing so, we oppose the still
> prevalent and ever more dangerous force of secularism.
>
> When times change, unlike dinosaurs, wise organisms adapt. We should
> recognize that we all have a stake in protecting Christian symbolism in
> the village square (or the airport). The only alternative will be no
> religious symbolism at all and make no mistake, secularism's rise is
> Judaism's decline.
>
> I spoke to the rabbi involved today and he is genuinely unhappy with
> the decision of Sea-Tac airport. I invited him to join the Toward
Laura Sanchez
fla...@verizon.net
On 13-Dec-2006, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
> Mike Hunt
> > > > The issue isn't that the Rabbi wanted the
> > > > Christmas ornaments removed, but he wanted
> > > > representation of his religion a this public
> > > > facility.
>
> James A. Donald:
> > > Christmas is a universal celebration,
>
> fla...@verizon.net
> > No, it is not. The fact that some people have
> > secularized it changes nothing.
>
> So you are worried that people might look at the
> Christmas tree and THINK of a manger?
No, I am worried that you are throwing around non -sequiturs because
you know you are wrong.
I am also worried that you seem to have the idea that numbers are the
only thing to consider when deciding what somehting is/not.
Your insistence that "Christmas is now secular and erveyone must
celebrate it or be considered a bigot [the upshot of your "only those with
a grudge against it don;t celebrate it" post] " is not only insanely fascist
and bigoted, but just not logical.
That's like saying that "There are more people who believe in the phony
Kabbalah cult in California than who practice the actual Kabbalah, and
so now the phony cult will be considered Kabbalah, and anyone who says
otherwise is a bigot."
Just completely wrong.
>
> Sure sounds like war on Christmas.
I'm sure it does, when that's what you're determined to see.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
> > "James A. Donald"
> > > > > > Christmas is a universal celebration, heavily
> > > > > > celebrated by pagans such as Chinese and
> > > > > > Japanese. It is intended to be universal.
>
> Christmas is a Christian holiday.
>
And everyone I know who calls themselves Xian would be
offended at any suggestuion otherwise.
> > James A. Donald:
> > > > Observe Singapore at Christmas time.
>
> Observe Riyadh at Christmas time.
>
> James A. Donald wrote:
> > But you guys are trying to suppress even the secular
> > aspects of Christmas - you were suing against the
> > display of Christmas trees
>
> Who was suing against what display of Xmas trees?
NO ONE.
> The ones in SEATAC?
>
> > The remarks made by the posters in this thread
> > demonstrate the truth of what I said.
>
> The remarks by a number of posters to these NGs demonstrate that they
> don't know their asses from their elbows.
As does his.
> Your point?
That anyone who doesn't tow the line is a bigot.
Which is an incredibly bigoted thing to demand.
Susan
>
> Deborah
fla...@verizon.net
> James A. Donald wrote:
> > But you guys are trying to suppress even the secular
> > aspects of Christmas - you were suing against the
> > display of Christmas trees
>
> Who was suing against what display of Xmas trees? The ones in SEATAC?\
Even if anyone was - which no one is doing - the proof
that the trees and all the other attendent crap really is NOT
secular is that it is ONLY brought out AT XMAStime.
It would be less disgusting if they were just honest about it.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 13-Dec-2006, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
> fla...@verizon.net:
> > So they should have accomodated him they they*should*
> > have.
>
> If someone is offended by Christmas
Which was not what was going on here - thanks for changing the subject
, you cannot
> accommodate him except by canceling Christmas, for if
> you accommodate him by making some particular changes,
> there is no end of people demanding additional
> particular changes.
And if there is no legal leg to stand on, no one has to make any
accomodations.
If there's a legal leg to stad on, there's a reason for that.
>
> It is like negotiating with the Palestinians. You cut a
> deal with the PLO, and then they say "thanks, and now for
> the demands of Hamas: ..." If you begin, there is no end.
Thanks for telling us just what you think of everyone who is not Xian.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 13-Dec-2006, Ben Kaufman <spaXm-mXe-anXd-p...@pobox.com>
wrote:
> >> The fact that the airport management took down the Christmas ornaments
> >> leads me to believe that they knew they were in violation of that
> >> ruling
> >> . Why didn't they simply allow the Menorah to be displayed? Could it be
> >> they are anti-semitic
> >
> >Could it be because the official national holiday is Christmas, not
> >Hannukah? Putting up a menorrah for Christmas makes no more sense than
> >putting up an Easter Bunny for Halloween. Wrong holiday.
> >
> >Should there be a Jewish holiday? Should the US have a holiday for the
> >Eid that ends Ramadan? Maybe. But that's another issue. We have a
> >holiday that celebrates Christmas and like it our not this is a
> >Christian holiday. If someone doesn't like it he doesn't have to
> >participate. But unless you want to try to ban Christmas then people
> >should grow up and leave it alone.
>
> The Nationally recognized holiday of Christmas is one day, December 25th,
> not
> the latter part of November through December.
The real point is that there should never be an national religious holiday.
Ever.
And you can see who REALLY loves the Constitution by the way they answer
this point.
Susan
Al Klein
<llaauurr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>God bless the Jewish people. They are always the friends of Christians.
Too bad Christianity doesn't return the favor.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Atheism is the world of reality, it is reason, it is freedom. Atheism is human
concern, and intellectual honesty to a degree that the religious mind cannot
begin to understand. And yet it is more than this. Atheism is not an old
religion, it is not a new and coming religion, in fact it is not, and never has
been, a religion at all. The definition of Atheism is magnificent in its
simplicity: Atheism is merely the bed-rock of sanity in a world of madness."
[Atheism: An Affirmative View, by Emmett F. Fields]
brique
James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:rku0o29k56rshruam...@4ax.com...
> Mike Hunt
> > > > The issue isn't that the Rabbi wanted the
> > > > Christmas ornaments removed, but he wanted
> > > > representation of his religion a this public
> > > > facility.
>
> James A. Donald:
> > > Christmas is a universal celebration,
>
> fla...@verizon.net
> > No, it is not. The fact that some people have
> > secularized it changes nothing.
>
> So you are worried that people might look at the
> Christmas tree and THINK of a manger?
>
> Sure sounds like war on Christmas.
Probably the same way you worry that seeing a woman wearing a chador will
make people accept Allah and promptly start slaughtering your
neighbours.....
brique
Cary Kittrell <ca...@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:elpusk$bu6$1...@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...
The joke is that the decorated tree is a pagan symbol, adopted by germans
christians, imported into England and popularised by the Victorians and
thence spread world-wide.
It has no relationship to the christian nativity tale at all.
>
>
> -- cary
>
>
brique
James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:89u0o2t64mqgb3jog...@4ax.com...
> --
> "James A. Donald"
> > > > > Christmas is a universal celebration, heavily
> > > > > celebrated by pagans such as Chinese and
> > > > > Japanese. It is intended to be universal.
>
> "Sancho Panza"
> > > > A noble sentiment, but far far far from anywhere
> > > > near reality.
>
> James A. Donald:
> > > Observe Singapore at Christmas time.
>
> fla...@verizon.net
> > Which means only that they have taken the secular
> > aspects they like and abandoned the rest - which is
> > the real affront to Xmas.
>
> But you guys are trying to suppress even the secular
> aspects of Christmas - you were suing against the
> display of Christmas trees, not the display of stables
> and mangers. You are suing against the stuff that
> people see in Singapore
Nobody was 'sueing against the display of trees'. a rabbi threatened to sue
if the airport did not also display symbols of his religion alongside the
trees. The airport re-acted by removing the trees thus killing the whole
suit stone dead, there were now no religous symbols for anyone to demand
parity with.
>
> "James A. Donald"
> > > Christmas is universal, except among those nursing
> > > grievances against Christianity and Christians.
>
> fla...@verizon.net
> > Anyone who thinks this is the one nursing grievances.
>
> The remarks made by the posters in this thread
> demonstrate the truth of what I said.
Saturnalia is universal..... christians just give it a different name.....
Laura Sanchez
Excuse me? It's Christians that are the only ones defending Israel and
denouncing anti-Semitism.
Mike Hunt
> On 13-Dec-2006, "dsha...@gmail.com" <dsha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>James A. Donald wrote:
>>
>>>But you guys are trying to suppress even the secular
>>>aspects of Christmas - you were suing against the
>>>display of Christmas trees
>>
>>Who was suing against what display of Xmas trees? The ones in SEATAC?\
>
>
> Even if anyone was - which no one is doing - the proof
> that the trees and all the other attendent crap really is NOT
> secular is that it is ONLY brought out AT XMAStime.
Right, it is bought for the same day that happens to coincide with the
day that Christians celebrate the birth of Christ.
Mike Hunt
Yet, they can't seem to share the winter holiday season by permitting a
one Jewish symbol at the airport.
James A. Donald
> > It is like negotiating with the Palestinians.
Mxsmanic
> Maybe. It can't be like the Israelis, since they
> refuse to negotiate.
They negotiated at Camp David, and look at the results.
James A. Donald
> > It is like negotiating with the Palestinians. You
> > cut a deal with the PLO, and then they say "thanks,
> > and now for the demands of Hamas: ..." If you
> > begin, there is no end.
> Thanks for telling us just what you think of everyone
> who is not Xian.
But there was no end: Consider for example Kwanza.
And while the Christmas trees are designed to be as
inoffensive as possible, "Goodwill to all men" the
menorah is not - it the equivalent of putting a manger
at the airport, and of course the Kwanza stuff is
designed to be confrontational, and having put the not
so innocuous menorah among the innocuous christmas
trees, the next demand would be for the confrontational
Kwanza stuff, and having put the Kwanza stuff, next come
the Wiccans - we have already been through all this.
That is why people don't put mangers out any more. If
we have to go through it all with Christmas trees also,
people will not put Christmas trees out any more either.
It was too hard, it is too hard, and there is no end to
it.
James A. Donald
> > > > > > > Christmas is a universal celebration,
> > > > > > > heavily celebrated by pagans such as
> > > > > > > Chinese and Japanese. It is intended to be
> > > > > > > universal.
> > Christmas is a Christian holiday.
> And everyone I know who calls themselves Xian would be
> offended at any suggestuion otherwise.
Sounds like you don't know too many Christians.
> > Who was suing against what display of Xmas trees?
Past experience shows any concessions would swiftly be
followed by new grievances from new people. There would
be no end of it. Saying that all this guy wanted was a
menorah is like saying that all the Palestinians want is
security in their land rights and the release of
prisoners. Satisfy one grievance, and you get a dozen
more, for the real grievance is Christmas itself, as
flavia and dsharavi's remarks reveal. If Christmas is
a strictly Christian holiday, then any observance of it
whatsoever, such as everyone taking a holiday at the
same time, is a grievance and an offense.
James A. Donald
> Your insistence that "Christmas is now secular and
> erveyone must celebrate it or be considered a bigot
> [the upshot of your "only those with a grudge against
> it don;t celebrate it" post] " is not only insanely
> fascist and bigoted, but just not logical.
No one must celebrate it, but any one who not only does
not celebrate it, but gets upset and offended by other
people celebrating it, is indeed a bigot.
James A. Donald
wrote:
> Even if anyone was - which no one is doing - the proof
> that the trees and all the other attendent crap really
> is NOT secular is that it is ONLY brought out AT
> XMAStime.
But Xmastime is the time of the return of the sun - it
follows the shortest day of the year. Nothing directly
to do, except symbolically, with the birth of that
notorious Jewish heretic that you seem to be so
remarkably upset by.
James A. Donald
> Nobody was 'sueing against the display of trees'. a
> rabbi threatened to sue if the airport did not also
> display symbols of his religion alongside the trees.
But they were displaying trees, and not a manger,
because the manger is a symbol of the Christian
religion, and the trees are not.
Further, past experience has shown you cannot settle
this dispute by concessions. Any concession is met by
further demands from additional complainants, for the
real grievance is Christmas itself, as several people in
this thread have made abundantly clear.
Tchiowa
fla...@verizon.net wrote:
> On 13-Dec-2006, "dsha...@gmail.com" <dsha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > James A. Donald wrote:
> > > But you guys are trying to suppress even the secular
> > > aspects of Christmas - you were suing against the
> > > display of Christmas trees
> >
> > Who was suing against what display of Xmas trees? The ones in SEATAC?\
>
> Even if anyone was - which no one is doing - the proof
> that the trees and all the other attendent crap really is NOT
> secular is that it is ONLY brought out AT XMAStime.
???? Did you think that Christmas trees should be brought out on the
4th of July?
There is an undoubtedly religious side to Christmas. Trees are not part
of that. Trees are part of the secular side. The Rabbi complained about
trees. He was picking a fight, simple as that. If the airport was
putting up pictures of baby Jesus with a halo or something like that I
could understand. I'm not saying I would agree but at least the
complaint (and the complaints of others in this thread) would make
sense. But claiming that a Christmas tree is not secular is simply
nonsense.
> It would be less disgusting if they were just honest about it.
Christmas trees are disgusting????
Anti-Christian bigotry, AFAIC.
Mike Hunt
> On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 04:55:07 GMT, fla...@verizon.net
> wrote:
>
>>Even if anyone was - which no one is doing - the proof
>>that the trees and all the other attendent crap really
>>is NOT secular is that it is ONLY brought out AT
>>XMAStime.
>
>
> But Xmastime is the time of the return of the sun - it
> follows the shortest day of the year. Nothing directly
> to do, except symbolically, with the birth of that
> notorious Jewish heretic that you seem to be so
> remarkably upset by.
That is the point. It is symbolically linked to the birth of Christ,
hence the name of the holiday.
Tchiowa
brique wrote:
> > But you guys are trying to suppress even the secular
> > aspects of Christmas - you were suing against the
> > display of Christmas trees, not the display of stables
> > and mangers. You are suing against the stuff that
> > people see in Singapore
>
> Nobody was 'sueing against the display of trees'. a rabbi threatened to sue
> if the airport did not also display symbols of his religion alongside the
> trees.
And if they didn't add his symbol he would sue against the trees.
Trees are *not* a religious symbol so the whole thing makes no sense
unless you look at the Rabbi as just being a bigot trying to pick a
fight.
> The airport re-acted by removing the trees thus killing the whole
> suit stone dead, there were now no religous symbols for anyone to demand
> parity with.
Nor were they any to begin with.
Tchiowa
Which "holiday" are you talking about? There is only one *NATIONAL
HOLIDAY* and it isn't a Jewish Holiday so why would you put up a Jewish
symbol?
Putting up a Jewish symbol would be celebrating a holiday that is
*PURELY* a religious holiday and not a national holiday and thus would
be in clear violation of separation of church and state.
Tchiowa
James A. Donald wrote:
> fla...@verizon.net
> > Your insistence that "Christmas is now secular and
> > erveyone must celebrate it or be considered a bigot
> > [the upshot of your "only those with a grudge against
> > it don;t celebrate it" post] " is not only insanely
> > fascist and bigoted, but just not logical.
>
> No one must celebrate it, but any one who not only does
> not celebrate it, but gets upset and offended by other
> people celebrating it, is indeed a bigot.
Exactly right.
Ben Kaufman
>"brique"
>> Nobody was 'sueing against the display of trees'. a
>> rabbi threatened to sue if the airport did not also
>> display symbols of his religion alongside the trees.
>
>But they were displaying trees, and not a manger,
>because the manger is a symbol of the Christian
>religion, and the trees are not.
>
>Further, past experience has shown you cannot settle
>this dispute by concessions. Any concession is met by
>further demands from additional complainants, for the
>real grievance is Christmas itself, as several people in
>this thread have made abundantly clear.
What are these "Past Experiences" you speak of?
Ben
Ben Kaufman
>fla...@verizon.net
>> Your insistence that "Christmas is now secular and
>> erveyone must celebrate it or be considered a bigot
>> [the upshot of your "only those with a grudge against
>> it don;t celebrate it" post] " is not only insanely
>> fascist and bigoted, but just not logical.
>
>No one must celebrate it, but any one who not only does
>not celebrate it, but gets upset and offended by other
>people celebrating it, is indeed a bigot.
This is a strawman of your creation. Have fun kicking the crap out of it.
Ben
Ben Kaufman
>James A. Donald:
>> > It is like negotiating with the Palestinians. You
>> > cut a deal with the PLO, and then they say "thanks,
>> > and now for the demands of Hamas: ..." If you
>> > begin, there is no end.
>
>fla...@verizon.net
>> Thanks for telling us just what you think of everyone
>> who is not Xian.
>
>But there was no end: Consider for example Kwanza.
>
>And while the Christmas trees are designed to be as
>inoffensive as possible, "Goodwill to all men" the
>menorah is not - it the equivalent of putting a manger
>at the airport, and of course the Kwanza stuff is
>designed to be confrontational, and having put the not
>so innocuous menorah among the innocuous christmas
>trees, the next demand would be for the confrontational
>Kwanza stuff, and having put the Kwanza stuff, next come
>the Wiccans - we have already been through all this.
>That is why people don't put mangers out any more. If
>we have to go through it all with Christmas trees also,
>people will not put Christmas trees out any more either.
>It was too hard, it is too hard, and there is no end to
>it.
Lol, you're worst case scenario doesn't sound too bad at all.
Even if five groups were given representation, what's the big deal? Perhaps
only to a to a bigot who doesn't want any competition for Christmas.
The airport claimed they didn't have the resources. I can understand going to
the expense to remove them to avoid a perceived lawsuit but they certainly
found the time to reinstall them again. What a miracle!
Ben
Ben Kaufman
Ah constitutionally based bigotry, way to go!
Ben
mark...@digiverse.net
Mike Hunt wrote:
> The issue isn't that the Rabbi wanted the Christmas ornaments removed,
> but he wanted representation of his religion a this public facility.
>
> subject agreed with the Rabbi.
>
> The fact that the airport management took down the Christmas ornaments
> leads me to believe that they knew they were in violation of that ruling
> . Why didn't they simply allow the Menorah to be displayed? Could it be
> they are anti-semitic
Lets be clear about this, The Rabbi wanted to display the national
emblem of the "STATE" OF ISRAEL at Seattle intenational airport:
It's not just some festive icon, it is the NATIONAL EMBLEM OF
ISRAEL:
http://www.science.co.il/Israel-Emblem.asp
"History: The national emblem of the State of Israel includes a seven
branched-candelabrum, called Menorah, flanked by two olive branches."
Do americans really think that it is apt some zioNAZI Rabbi display the
national emblem of the foreign country he is loyal to at an american
international airport, by threat of legal action?
If zionists want to erect their national icons they should fuck off and
live in their own "country".
mark...@digiverse.net
The menorah isn't just some festive decoration, it also happens to be
the national emblem of Israel, like the eagle is for the US :
http://www.science.co.il/Israel-Emblem.asp
The rabbi wanted to display the national icon of his foreign country.
Sancho Panza
"Tchiowa" <tchi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1166087197.2...@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
Hanukah is not a religious holiday. It is not mentioned in sacred texts. It
is a military/political pep rally.
fla...@verizon.net
On 14-Dec-2006, Ben Kaufman <spaXm-mXe-anXd-p...@pobox.com>
wrote:
Yes, that much is blazingly obvious
No one "complains about other people celebrating it."
Anyone has only ever complained about being forced
to join in, or being forced out of sharing space/time for
other holidays.
This airport farrago was a perfect example of the latter.
> Have fun kicking the crap out of it.
He's going to beat it to death - if only.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 14-Dec-2006, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 04:55:07 GMT, fla...@verizon.net
> wrote:
> > Even if anyone was - which no one is doing - the proof
> > that the trees and all the other attendent crap really
> > is NOT secular is that it is ONLY brought out AT
> > XMAStime.
>
> But Xmastime is the time of the return of the sun
No, Solstice is the return of the sun.
It's 3 days before Xmas.
> - it
> follows the shortest day of the year.
So does the entire month of January (for example)
> Nothing directly
> to do, except symbolically
I guess that's why the say is NAMED for Jesus.
> , with the birth of that
> notorious Jewish heretic that you seem to be so
> remarkably upset by.
Wrong again: I am upset by people insisting that everyone
else worship him - and peope like you insisting we do it
while pretending you're not.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
> >> Thanks for telling us just what you think of everyone
> >> who is not Xian.
> >
> >But there was no end: Consider for example Kwanza.
> >
Which was devised about 30 years ago.
My, what an avalanche!
>
> >And while the Christmas trees are designed to be as
> >inoffensive as possible, "Goodwill to all men"
Because you say so?
Xmas tress were "designed" to celebrate Jesus's birth -
it's been that way in the bulk of Western civilization for centuries.
> > the
> >menorah is not - it the equivalent of putting a manger
> >at the airport,
The Supreme Court court disagrees with you.
> > and of course the Kwanza stuff is
> >designed to be confrontational
Thanks for admitting just what your prejudices really are.
> >, and having put the not
> >so innocuous menorah among the innocuous christmas
> >trees, the next demand would be for the confrontational
> >Kwanza stuff
You really are the worst sort of bigot, aren't you?
XMas isn;t confrontational, but a Kwanza kinara is.
Uh-huh.
> >, and having put the Kwanza stuff, next come
> >the Wiccans
From whom you stole Xmas - no wonder you're edgy.
> > - we have already been through all this.
And yet you have learned notonly nothing,
but the exact opposite lesson: that you do not have a monopoly
on public space, that you are not superior to everyone else, you
do not get to define other peoiple, you don;t get to determine how
other people worship or behave until it adversely affects you - and
having to share your toys is not "adversely affecting" you no
matter how much your squeal about it.
> >That is why people don't put mangers out any more.
How childish of them.
And how disapppointing for me.
Here I thought it was because they were trying to be polite.
And yet it's all because they really are bigots trying to shoehorn
their religion into domination by the thin edge of the wedge.
How silly of me not to have noted it before.
> > If
> >we have to go through it all with Christmas trees also,
> >people will not put Christmas trees out any more either.
Which will also be their own decision.
> >It was too hard, it is too hard, and there is no end to
> >it.
>
> Lol, you're worst case scenario doesn't sound too bad at all.
> Even if five groups were given representation, what's the big deal?
The more selfish the child, the harder it is for him to share his toys.
> Perhaps
> only to a to a bigot who doesn't want any competition for Christmas.
> The airport claimed they didn't have the resources. I can understand
> going to
> the expense to remove them to avoid a perceived lawsuit but they
> certainly
> found the time to reinstall them again. What a miracle!
Yeah, I noticed that, too.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
I think she is exaggeratedly discussing a different type of Xian.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 14-Dec-2006, "Sancho Panza" <otter...@xhotmail.com> wrote:
> Hanukah is not a religious holiday. It is not mentioned in sacred texts.
Oh, okay - I see what you mean when you say it's not religious.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 14-Dec-2006, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
> James A. Donald:
> > > It is like negotiating with the Palestinians.
>
> Mxsmanic
> > Maybe. It can't be like the Israelis, since they
> > refuse to negotiate.
>
> They negotiated at Camp David, and look at the results.
The lying bigot is also ignoring Wye and Oslo.
Not that I'm suprised.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
> >Further, past experience has shown you cannot settle
> >this dispute by concessions. Any concession is met by
> >further demands from additional complainants, for the
> >real grievance is Christmas itself, as several people in
> >this thread have made abundantly clear.
>
> What are these "Past Experiences" you speak of?
He's simply not telling the truth.
No one is offended by Xmas.
Lots of people are offended by it being forced on everyone
*&* everyone else forcibly ecluded.
Susan
Cary Kittrell
>
> Cary Kittrell <ca...@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
> news:elpusk$bu6$1...@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...
> > In article <rku0o29k56rshruam...@4ax.com> James A. Donald
> <jam...@echeque.com> writes:
> > > Mike Hunt
> > > > > > The issue isn't that the Rabbi wanted the
> > > > > > Christmas ornaments removed, but he wanted
> > > > > > representation of his religion a this public
> > > > > > facility.
> > >
> > > > > Christmas is a universal celebration,
> > >
> > > > No, it is not. The fact that some people have
> > > > secularized it changes nothing.
> > >
> > > So you are worried that people might look at the
> > > Christmas tree and THINK of a manger?
> > >
> > > Sure sounds like war on Christmas.
> >
> > Sounds like a bar fight against Christmas -- an
> > isolated incident. A war would be large
> > numbers of complaints or lawsuits against
> > displays which contain no specifically
> > Christian symbolism. Yet this is the only
> > story of this nature I am aware of which
> > did not involve things such a manger, wise
> > men, or other related icons.
>
> The joke is that the decorated tree is a pagan symbol, adopted by germans
> christians, imported into England and popularised by the Victorians and
> thence spread world-wide.
>
> It has no relationship to the christian nativity tale at all.
Yeppers, not an authentic Christian symbol, like, say....um, bunnies
and eggs at Easter?
-- cary
Mark K. Bilbo
>> Too bad Christianity doesn't return the favor.
>
>
> Excuse me? It's Christians that are the only ones defending Israel and
> denouncing anti-Semitism.
By refusing to add a menorah to the airport display?
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels.
mark...@digiverse.net
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:02:49 -0800, Laura Sanchez wrote:
>
> >> Too bad Christianity doesn't return the favor.
> >
> >
> > Excuse me? It's Christians that are the only ones defending Israel and
> > denouncing anti-Semitism.
>
> By refusing to add a menorah to the airport display?
It's not just some kind of festive decoration.
The menorah is the NATIONAL EMBLEM OF THE "STATE" OF ISRAEL Like the
eagle is to the US!:
http://www.science.co.il/Israel-Emblem.asp
I would find it highly offensive to have an 8 foot foreign state
emblem displayed by legal imposition in my country. But hey, maybe
yanks should know who their real masters are.
Robibnikoff
"Laura Sanchez" <llaauurr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1166065318.8...@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com...
> God bless the Jewish people. They are always the friends of Christians.
Too bad it hasn't always been the other way around.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
I think religion is so popular because even the village idiot can feel like
Einstein without any effort. - Denis Loubet
Robibnikoff
>> Too bad Christianity doesn't return the favor.
>
>
> Excuse me? It's Christians that are the only ones defending Israel and
> denouncing anti-Semitism.
Excuse me? Christians used to burn Jews at the stake.
Mark K. Bilbo
>
> Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:02:49 -0800, Laura Sanchez wrote:
>>
>> >> Too bad Christianity doesn't return the favor.
>> >
>> >
>> > Excuse me? It's Christians that are the only ones defending Israel and
>> > denouncing anti-Semitism.
>>
>> By refusing to add a menorah to the airport display?
>
> It's not just some kind of festive decoration.
> The menorah is the NATIONAL EMBLEM OF THE "STATE" OF ISRAEL Like the
> eagle is to the US!:
>
> http://www.science.co.il/Israel-Emblem.asp
>
> I would find it highly offensive to have an 8 foot foreign state
> emblem displayed by legal imposition in my country. But hey, maybe
> yanks should know who their real masters are.
That's stupid. Doesn't matter what it means in Israel, this isn't Israel.
Here, many regard it as a religious symbol. If we're going to let one
religious symbol be displayed on public property at public expense, we
should let all of them be displayed.
brique
James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:th12o2tkgeepma87d...@4ax.com...
> "James A. Donald"
> > > > > > > > Christmas is a universal celebration,
> > > > > > > > Chinese and Japanese. It is intended to be
> > > > > > > > universal.
>
> "dsha...@gmail.com"
> > > Christmas is a Christian holiday.
>
> fla...@verizon.net
> > And everyone I know who calls themselves Xian would be
> > offended at any suggestuion otherwise.
>
> Sounds like you don't know too many Christians.
>
> > > Who was suing against what display of Xmas trees?
>
> followed by new grievances from new people. There would
> be no end of it. Saying that all this guy wanted was a
> menorah is like saying that all the Palestinians want is
> security in their land rights and the release of
> prisoners. Satisfy one grievance, and you get a dozen
> more, for the real grievance is Christmas itself, as
> flavia and dsharavi's remarks reveal. If Christmas is
> a strictly Christian holiday, then any observance of it
> whatsoever, such as everyone taking a holiday at the
> same time, is a grievance and an offense.
So, not going to answer the question then James?
Who was suing against what display of Xmas trees?
> --
> ----------------------
> We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
> of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
> right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.
>
> http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald
brique
Mike Hunt <postmaster@localhost> wrote in message
news:862dnVqd5t2GdB3Y...@comcast.com...
> fla...@verizon.net wrote:
>
> > On 13-Dec-2006, "dsha...@gmail.com" <dsha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>James A. Donald wrote:
> >>
> >>>But you guys are trying to suppress even the secular
> >>>aspects of Christmas - you were suing against the
> >>>display of Christmas trees
> >>
> >
> >
> > Even if anyone was - which no one is doing - the proof
> > that the trees and all the other attendent crap really is NOT
> > secular is that it is ONLY brought out AT XMAStime.
>
> day that Christians celebrate the birth of Christ.
Thats right, they only grow in December and they all die overnight on the
26th .
brique
> "brique"
> > Nobody was 'sueing against the display of trees'. a
> > rabbi threatened to sue if the airport did not also
> > display symbols of his religion alongside the trees.
>
> But they were displaying trees, and not a manger,
> because the manger is a symbol of the Christian
> religion, and the trees are not.
Hey, sorry if the facts upset your little pre-programmed rant.... but there
you go....
>
> Further, past experience has shown you cannot settle
> this dispute by concessions. Any concession is met by
> further demands from additional complainants, for the
> real grievance is Christmas itself, as several people in
> this thread have made abundantly clear.
Past experience..... so, you are giving up on your libertarian campaign
against the state then? After all, they can't concede anything to you, you
will only ask for more......
brique
Ben Kaufman <spaXm-mXe-anXd-p...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:tod2o29lmsb3iu2lr...@4ax.com...
he was frightened by a christmas fairy once........
>
>
> Ben
brique
More pagan symbols.... fertility and all that..... unless the rabbit
symbolises the resurrection. because it can get it up so many times a
day..... and the egg, why that symbolises the slaughtered foetii of all that
years abortions..... and....up..... ribbons.... the ribbon signifies....
um...... oh the Crown of Thorns.... yep..blood red ribbons....
and.....mmm.... chocolate.. yep, dark chocolate bunnies signify the bitter
tears of the Lord and the sweet milky chocolate bunnies are Yoru reward in
heaven! Say, this religion bullshit symbolism is dead easy......
>
> -- cary
brique
>
> James A. Donald wrote:
> > fla...@verizon.net
> > > Your insistence that "Christmas is now secular and
> > > erveyone must celebrate it or be considered a bigot
> > > [the upshot of your "only those with a grudge against
> > > it don;t celebrate it" post] " is not only insanely
> > > fascist and bigoted, but just not logical.
> >
> > No one must celebrate it, but any one who not only does
> > not celebrate it, but gets upset and offended by other
> > people celebrating it, is indeed a bigot.
>
So, anyone who isnt a christian or who doesn't pretend to be a christian for
christmas is a bigot?
Right.
>
constan...@gmail.com
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
> I notice nobody asking why it is tax money has to be spent on ornaments
> rather than silly things like, you know, fixing potholes or even something
> really absurd like airport security...
That attitude could help explain why socialist countries have such a
reputation for being ugly, spirit-killing places.
constan...@gmail.com
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:02:49 -0800, Laura Sanchez wrote:
>
> >> Too bad Christianity doesn't return the favor.
> >
> >
> > Excuse me? It's Christians that are the only ones defending Israel and
> > denouncing anti-Semitism.
>
> By refusing to add a menorah to the airport display?
If there's a choice between displaying all religions and displaying
none - and that was ultimately the choice - then the better option is
to display none.
Christmas trees are nonreligious as all obvious traces of Christianity
are removed (a nativity scene would constitute an obvious Christian
element). Christmas is in fact a federal holiday and therefore secular
(since the federal state is secular), and so to celebrate Christmas is
not, by itself, to celebrate Christianity. Of course a display that
refers not only to Christmas but also to Christ is not secular. Thus
Santa is secular and Christmas trees are secular, but the nativity
scene is not secular.
However, if it is tragically and incorrectly decided in the courts that
to display Christmas trees is to endorse Christianity, then Christmas
trees should be removed rather than overtly religious displays such as
menorahs, nativity scenes, and the like, added.
None of this harms Israel or endorses anti-semitism, so it is
orthogonal to the question of whether Christians defend Israel and
denounce anti-semitism.
mark...@digiverse.net
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:38:26 -0800, markzoom wrote:
>
> >
> > Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
> >> On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:02:49 -0800, Laura Sanchez wrote:
> >>
> >> >> Too bad Christianity doesn't return the favor.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Excuse me? It's Christians that are the only ones defending Israel and
> >> > denouncing anti-Semitism.
> >>
> >> By refusing to add a menorah to the airport display?
> >
> > It's not just some kind of festive decoration.
> > The menorah is the NATIONAL EMBLEM OF THE "STATE" OF ISRAEL Like the
> > eagle is to the US!:
> >
> > http://www.science.co.il/Israel-Emblem.asp
> >
> > I would find it highly offensive to have an 8 foot foreign state
> > emblem displayed by legal imposition in my country. But hey, maybe
> > yanks should know who their real masters are.
>
> That's stupid.
Oh? I bet there would be an army of zionist shysters beating down doors
if a Muslim Iman insisted on an 8' crescent and moon displayed at US
airports on Muslim religious holidays.
> Doesn't matter what it means in Israel, this isn't Israel.
So you wouldn't mind an 8' swastika, a symbol used in various current
and recognised religions, either then?
Many of those that know a Menorah is the official emblem of the Israeli
government would see it as a symbol of another invasion of territory.
> Here, many regard it as a religious symbol.
In the US, only less than 2% do. Did you know that there are just as
many muslims as jews in the US, btw?
> If we're going to let one
> religious symbol be displayed on public property at public expense, we
> should let all of them be displayed.
You'll find that many places won't display anything at all instead of
being forced to incur the expense of purchasing and managing the
displays of dozens of minority religions on their festivals year round.
In a way that would be victory for the zionist Rabbi too.... and a blow
to freedom.
Arturo Magidin
mark...@digiverse.net wrote:
> Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
> > On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:02:49 -0800, Laura Sanchez wrote:
> >
> > >> Too bad Christianity doesn't return the favor.
> > >
> > >
> > > Excuse me? It's Christians that are the only ones defending Israel and
> > > denouncing anti-Semitism.
> >
> > By refusing to add a menorah to the airport display?
>
> It's not just some kind of festive decoration.
> The menorah is the NATIONAL EMBLEM OF THE "STATE" OF ISRAEL Like the
> eagle is to the US!:
>
> http://www.science.co.il/Israel-Emblem.asp
You are confused.
The Menorah, the symbol that appears in the official seal of the state
of Israel, is a seven-arm candelabra; the Hanukiyah, the "Hanuka
menorah" has a different number of arms. They are different emblems,
just like the Star of David is different from the Wiccan five-pointed
star.
Arturo Magidin
Arturo Magidin
<mark...@digiverse.net> wrote:
>
>Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:38:26 -0800, markzoom wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:02:49 -0800, Laura Sanchez wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> Too bad Christianity doesn't return the favor.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Excuse me? It's Christians that are the only ones defending Israel and
>> >> > denouncing anti-Semitism.
>> >>
>> >> By refusing to add a menorah to the airport display?
>> >
>> > It's not just some kind of festive decoration.
>> > The menorah is the NATIONAL EMBLEM OF THE "STATE" OF ISRAEL Like the
>> > eagle is to the US!:
>> >
>> > http://www.science.co.il/Israel-Emblem.asp
>> >
>> > I would find it highly offensive to have an 8 foot foreign state
>> > emblem displayed by legal imposition in my country. But hey, maybe
>> > yanks should know who their real masters are.
>>
>> That's stupid.
>
>Oh? I bet there would be an army of zionist shysters beating down doors
>if a Muslim Iman insisted on an 8' crescent and moon displayed at US
>airports on Muslim religious holidays.
>
>> Doesn't matter what it means in Israel, this isn't Israel.
>
>So you wouldn't mind an 8' swastika, a symbol used in various current
>and recognised religions, either then?
The nazi swastika is different from the symbol in eastern religions;
the fold goes the other way.
>Many of those that know a Menorah is the official emblem of the Israeli
>government would see it as a symbol of another invasion of territory.
The Hanukyah (Hanukah-menorah) is different from the Menorah in the
national emblem. Much like the star of David is different from the wiccan 5
pointed star.
The Menorah in the national emblem is a seven-branched
candelabrum. The Hanukyah, by contrast, is a nine-branched
candelabrum.
Not that it is relevant here. A rabbi requested permission for putting
up a Hanukah display alongside the Christmas display. Rather than
allow it, the airport officials decided opening it up to a second
religion would force them to open it up to any and all religions, and
they decided they prefered to remove the Christmas display rather than
have an open forum.
--
======================================================================
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about
what I accept as reality."
--- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes" by Bill Watterson)
======================================================================
Arturo Magidin
magidin-at-member-ams-org
James A. Donald
> > But Xmastime is the time of the return of the sun -
> > it follows the shortest day of the year. Nothing
> > directly to do, except symbolically, with the birth
> > of that notorious Jewish heretic that you seem to be
> > so remarkably upset by.
Mike Hunt
> That is the point. It is symbolically linked to the
> birth of Christ, hence the name of the holiday.
But then, your basic grievance, or flavia's basic
grievance, is having a holiday on christmas, hence the
impossibility of appeasing the lawsuit mongers by any
lesser measure.
James A. Donald
> > > any one who not only does not celebrate it, but
> > > gets upset and offended by other people
> > > celebrating it, is indeed a bigot.
Ben Kaufman
> > This is a strawman of your creation.
fla...@verizon.net
> Yes, that much is blazingly obvious No one "complains
> about other people celebrating it." Anyone has only
> ever complained about being forced to join in
How does a christmas tree at the airport force you to
join in?
> or being forced out of sharing space/time for other
> holidays. This airport farrago was a perfect example
> of the latter.
But that is not an objection to the Christmas tree at
the airport, that is an objection to so many people
taking a vacation at Christmas time that the world shuts
down for a bit, an objection, not to Christmas trees,
but to Christmas itself - war on Christmas. The
existence of so many people following a tradition that
has some mild associations with Christianity is the
offense, and you want to remake everyone else, so that
you are no longer offended.
That is bigotry on an amazing scale.