Thorny Thuringians and a meta-question

[Roger Travis]

Right after sending the Bayern/Bavaria post, I realized we have an equally difficult choice, which is compounded by the problem of the umlaut:  Thüringen just wouldn't be easy for people to copy in since the English keyboard doesn't have the umlaut. What do we think about that?

But that's not even the main thing that I'm worried about with the Thuringians. There's absolutely nothing I can do that won't upset somebody's genealogical applecart where this family is concerned (if it can be called a "family" even):

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/THURINGIA.htm#Basinus 

Wikipedia doesn't constitute a usable source here, because it's riddled with unsourced errors, and the FMG stuff is, as they can be given the way that site works, able to be radically ambiguous in a way that WikiTree can't be.

Help, please.

Unless everyone on this list wants to be consulted on every issue of filiation (which I'd love, were it the case!), I think we may need to form a subset of this group who really want to pay close attention to such things as whether Baderic, Hermanfred, and Berthar are actually the sons of Basinus, and actually are brothers, and how exactly we should "teach the controversy." Whether we form that subgroup or no, what I feel the need of is a panel by whom I can run the decisions I'm making. The difficulty is of course that this will slow things down, but I wonder if we can create a protocol to triage the issues, something like this:

When merging profiles with conflicting parents, 

1) in cases of clear error, the merger proceeds with the merge

2) in cases of a single fanciful parentage, the merger leaves the parent, with a comment,

3) in cases of two conflicting fanciful parent, the merger disconnects both and notes that s/he did so in a comment,

4) in cases of two conflicting primary-sourced parents, the merger locks a profile ID and matches it to the conflicting profile, then puts it in a queue for the panel (which could be this group) to look at, with the merger's proposed solution; after a certain amount of time, if no one on the panel has objected, the merger implements his/her solution.

Thoughts?

Gratefully,

Roger

--
Roger Travis

Associate Professor of Classics

Department of Literatures, Cultures, & Languages

University of Connecticut

roger....@uconn.edu, livingepic.org

Director, Video Games and Human Values Initiative, vghvi.org

[Kathy Alvis Patterson]

For the umlaut and other foreign accents and symbols, anyone can take
a quick detour to Google. Within a fews hits, the word correctly
accented should show up; then just copy and paste it into Wikitree.
The Mac keyboard does have these accents, but two of the computers I
use are like the nerdy guy on the old Mac commercials, i.e., no
accents.
Kathy

On 2/25/12, Roger Travis <rogert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Right after sending the Bayern/Bavaria post, I realized we have an equally
> difficult choice, which is compounded by the problem of the umlaut:

> *Thüringen
> *just wouldn't be easy for people to copy in since the English keyboard

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[Roger Travis]

OK, I'm inclined to agree since that's consistent. Thanks, Kathy.

[Lindsay Stough]

I like it.... especially when more of these profiles will not be imported and making the final profiles reflect properly would be awesome...

(All for Putting Roger to work :p)

---

Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 10:08:27 -0500
Subject: Re: [WikiEuroAristo] Thorny Thuringians and a meta-question
From: rogert...@gmail.com
To: wikieur...@googlegroups.com

[Roger Travis]

Do you want me to tell everyone that properly Plantagenet is  Plantagenêt? (J/k--according to the "Kathy Rule" the circumflex should go away because the house was an English house.

[Lindsay Stough]

D you want me to come through the computer? :p

---

Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 10:28:32 -0500

[Kathy Alvis Patterson]

The ultimate "Kathy rule" is "Use your judgment." Ask my 7th grade students.

Use the circumflex with French names, but drop it when you
(figuratively or historically) cross the Channel. Plantagenesta was
the original name; that's where the circumflex came from. Can we agree
that we don't use either Plantagenesta or Plantagenêt?

Kathy

On 2/25/12, Lindsay Stough <wutam...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> D you want me to come through the computer? :p
>

> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 10:28:32 -0500
> Subject: Re: [WikiEuroAristo] Thorny Thuringians and a meta-question
> From: rogert...@gmail.com
> To: wikieur...@googlegroups.com
>
> Do you want me to tell everyone that properly Plantagenet is
> Plantagenêt? (J/k--according to the "Kathy Rule" the circumflex should go
> away because the house was an English house.
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Lindsay Stough <wutam...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> I like it.... especially when more of these profiles will not be imported
> and making the final profiles reflect properly would be awesome...
>
> (All for Putting Roger to work :p)
>
>
>

> roger....@uconn.edu, livingepic.orgDirector, Video Games and Human Values

> Initiative, vghvi.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
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>
>
>
>
>
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> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>
>
>
> --
> Roger TravisAssociate Professor of ClassicsDepartment of Literatures,
> Cultures, & LanguagesUniversity of Connecticut

> roger....@uconn.edu, livingepic.orgDirector, Video Games and Human Values

[Roger Travis]

Yes, ma'am. I believe we can agree on that. :D

[Lindsay Stough]

I always agree to Plantagenet when its already completed for a lot of people :p

Kathy, that is great advice... my favorite advice ever from a teacher was in college finance and he told us to "NOT FORGET WHAT WE ALREADY KNOW" because we would all sit there stumped when we got half way through a problem and not realize it was at a point we BEGAN problems earlier, lol...

> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 09:49:18 -0600

> Subject: Re: [WikiEuroAristo] Thorny Thuringians and a meta-question

> From: alvi...@gmail.com
> To: wikieur...@googlegroups.com

[Kathy Alvis Patterson]

The small imp sitting on my shoulder (it's Saturday after all) says to
share this gem with you:

Note on spelling: the German-speaking lands have agreed on a spelling
reform (Rechtschreibreform). The new orthography is supposed to be
binding as of 2005-07-31. There has been significant resistance to the
change, and some major periodicals are refusing to adopt the new
spellings. Among other things, the character 'ß', called "scharfes s"
or "eszet", will in many cases be replaced by 'ss'. There are no
current state names containing eszet. The substitution need be made
only in modern texts that refer to obsolete states.

Baden-Württemberg: Bade-Wurtemberg (French); Land Baden-Württemberg (formal)
Bavaria: Baviera (Italian, Portuguese, Spanish); Bavière (French);
Bayern (German, Danish); Beieren (Dutch); Freistaat Bayern (formal);
Бавария (Russian)
Berlin: Berlim (Portuguese); Berlín (Spanish); Berlino (Italian); Land
Berlin (formal); Берлин (Russian)
Brandenburg: Brandebourg (French); Brandeburgo (Italian); Land
Brandenburg (formal)
Bremen: Brema (Italian); Brême (French); Freie Hansestadt Bremen (formal)
Hamburg: Amburgo (Italian); Freie und Hansestadt Hamburg (formal);
Hamborg (Danish); Hambourg (French); Hamburgo (Portuguese, Spanish)
Hesse: Assia (Italian); Hessen (German, Spanish); Land Hessen (formal)
Lower Saxony: Baixa Saxônia (Portuguese); Bassa Sassonia (Italian);
Basse-Saxe (French); Land Niedersachsen (formal); Niedersachsen
(German)
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern: Mecklembourg-Poméranie (French); Mecklenburg
(variant); Meclemburgo (Italian)
North Rhine-Westphalia: Noordrijn-Westfalen (Dutch);
Nordrhein-Westfalen (German); Renania del Norte-Westfalia (Spanish);
Renânia do Norte-Vestfália (Portuguese); Renania
Settentrionale-Vestfalia (Italian); Rhénanie du Nord-Westphalie
(French)
Rhineland-Palatinate: Renania-Palatinado (Spanish); Renânia-Palatinado
(Portuguese); Renania-Palatinato (Italian); Rheinland-Pfalz (German);
Rhénanie-Palatinat (French); Rijnland-Palts (Dutch)
Saarland: Saar (Italian); Saargebiet (German-obsolete); Sarre (French,
Portuguese, Spanish)
Saxony: Freistaat Sachsen (formal); Sachsen (Danish, German); Saksen
(Dutch); Sajonia (Spanish); Sassonia (Italian); Saxe (French)
Saxony-Anhalt: Land Sachsen-Anhalt (formal); Sachsen-Anhalt (German);
Sassonia e Anhalt (Italian); Saxe-Anhalt (French)
Schleswig-Holstein: Land Schleswig-Holstein (formal);
Sleeswijk-Holstein (Dutch); Slesvig-Holsten (Danish); Sleswig-Holstein
(obsolete)
Thuringia: Freistaat Thüringen (formal); Thuringe (French); Thüringen
(German); Turingia (Italian, Spanish)

[Kathy Alvis Patterson]

the source for that is http://statoids.com/ude.html.

[Lindsay Stough]

*scratches head* this is why we consult Kathy... cause I am NOT remembering that!

That makes my head hurt.

> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 09:54:46 -0600

[Lindsay Stough]

WE are sticking with how things are in the lifetime of individual, though, correct?

> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 09:56:31 -0600

[Roger Travis]

No, actually--Kathy persuaded me that it makes more sense to go with modern names of places that are still around, when a place-name is the LNAB we've decided on.

[Lindsay Stough]

I must have missed that conversation...

---

Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 10:59:58 -0500

[Roger Travis]

OK, then, since no prospective genealogical star chamber has come forward:

From this point forward, please assume that anything I do like the following proposed solutions will be noted, with reference to the FMG links, in comments on the relevant profiles.

My proposed solution to the sons of Basinus of Thuringia (see http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/THURINGIA.htm#Basinus):

In the absence of any other parentage for Baderic, Hermanfred, and Berthar, they will be sons of Bisinus aka Basinus and Basina, whom we will with no real evidence merge into Mania aka Menia, who will be cut off from her fanciful Lombard parentage.

My proposed solution for Garibald of Bavaria (see  http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BAVARIA.htm#Garibald):

Garibald will be cut off from any parentage, and given the LNAB Agilolfing. Closely following the information in the FMG page linked just above, the other members of the Agilolfings will all receive that LNAB, but will be given only such parentage as can be verified; fanciful connections between the members of the dynasty will be avoided.

The idea here is that you'll take a look at the above and let me know within 24 hours if you'd like to discuss either matter before these solutions are implemented.

With thanks,

Roger

[Kathy Alvis Patterson]

Sounds good.

On 2/25/12, Roger Travis <rogert...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> *Thüringen
>> *just wouldn't be easy for people to copy in since the English keyboard

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "WikiTree European Aristocratic Ancestors User Group" group.

> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/WikiEuroAristo/-/j7CuZlfkYTIJ.

[Martyn]

Using a 'umlaut' (or any other accent) is not as hard as many of you think.

On a Macintosh computer (since System 7): Option-key + vowel, then the vowel you want the accent on (eg. Option + U = umlaut. Type Option + U than "u" = ü,).

On a PC: the accents are hidden under ' " ` and ^, type that first then the vowel you want the accent on (eg. ' + e = é, " + u = ü, ` + a = à, ^ + e = ê and so on).

Back to the subject. Agreed was to write the name in the native language, that includes accents. Leaving the accent away is not only incorrect, it might spell something completely different and even hazardous. In German the "u" is different from "ü" and could change the meaning of a word. 

Op zaterdag 25 februari 2012 14:37:25 UTC+1 schreef Roger Travis het volgende:

[Lianne Lavoie]

Actually, Martyn, that depends on how you have your PC set up. To get those accents you usually have to set up different keyboard layouts. In Canada, computers commonly come with English and Canadian Multilingual (ie. French) keyboard layouts already set up. But that differs by country. So it's definitely possible to set up, someone just needs a little bit of computer knowledge to do so. :) But Kathy's right, you can usually just copy and paste from google to get a name accented properly!

I also agree that names should not have accents left out. This is covered under http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Name_Fields#Use_their_conventions_instead_of_ours.

~Lianne

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Lianne Lavoie, BCSc
An Effort in Green

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[Kathy Alvis Patterson]

I will repeat that the fastest way to acquire accents for foreign
words is to Google the name. Within the first 3-4 links, I always the
word written with the accents. Copy and paste.

>>> umlaut: *Thüringen *just wouldn't be easy for people to copy in since

>>> the English keyboard doesn't have the umlaut. What do we think about
>>> that?
>>>
>>> But that's not even the main thing that I'm worried about with the
>>> Thuringians. There's absolutely nothing I can do that won't upset
>>> somebody's genealogical applecart where this family is concerned (if it
>>> can
>>> be called a "family" even):
>>>

>>> http://fmg.ac/Projects/**MedLands/THURINGIA.htm#Basinus<http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/THURINGIA.htm#Basinus>
>>> **

> *Lianne Lavoie, BCSc*
> An Effort in Green <http://an-effort-in-green.blogspot.com/>

> Stories of a Canadian Family

> <http://storiesofacanadianfamily.blogspot.com/>
> Follow me on Twitter <http://twitter.com/spockofvulcan>

>
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