before I say good-bye

[Christine Kuglen]

Hi All,

 

I want to say that I have learned a lot from all of the posts that I have read. I am feeling a bit confused about what to do in my situation but I think it overall best to leave the group and continue my journey in parenting. I kind of feel like an unschooling failure because it hasn't worked for me like I thought it would.

 

It is funny but before my son was born I thought I would always continue working but when I held him I knew that he needed me more than anything and I stayed home and breastfed and made sure he had what he needed. He never cried because he was always in my arms or at my side. It was awesome. I became a LLL leader and grew with a group of women who showed me attachment parenting, something I was always doing anyway. I developed a strong connection to my son and subsequently to my daughter, 4 years later. Parenting was a big commitment but it came naturally and I could see how my children and I thrived together. We naturally started homeschooling with other LLL people. I tried to do a few lessons with my son but he didn't want to be taught and so I just let it go. We did what we wanted to, parks, t.v., zoo, museums, visiting friends etc. I had another son, it was all good. We moved to Costa Rica when my eldest was 8. We lived in the mountains, a bit isolated for my tastes but a get away for sure. We lived without much contact for a couple of years but we werent really happy so we soon came out of the mountains and moved to a city, made some good friends and were better. Then we returned to the US, same city, same friends. Same homeschooling. Upon return I did notice that my children were not doing some of the things that others could. My 11.5 year old could not name the days of the week, the months of the year, could barely read, couldn't count to 100. Stuff that for sure was academic but not really. I do think these are basic skills. He was very mature, got along well with others but had some emotional issues at home. A bit anxiety ridden upon leaving the house, very difficult with transitions, very self critical. I talked to another unschooler who told me that kids learn when they learn, but I just couldn't see that he was interested or motivated to learn even the basics. I did do some intervention for reading and it worked. He got reading and became an avid reader, which he still is but he has no motivation to do much of anything. He watched South Park, listens to music on his ipod, plays video games on his xbox but has NO INTEREST in learning even the basics. I still think he doesn't know the months of the year though I don't out right ask him. It bothers him because the kids he knows do do things. They play instruments, draw or paint, have hobbies. One day I saw him google "hobby" just to see if he could come up with one. But unschooling has obviously not worked for him. He has no interests that inspire him....just activities that he does to pass the time away, expresses lack of motivation, doesn't like to leave the house, and bottom line-doesn't look like a happy person to me.

His sister is much more active. She does entertain herself with art and likes to take classes in the community, dance gymnastics etc. She had no friends(due to the fact that our hs friends are heavily weighted in the boy and very little girl area) until lately when she asked to go to school(for this very reason) I found her a charter school that is very open minded and loosely structured and nurturing. It is a perfect fit for her. She can barely read at the age of 10 but they are totally cool with that. And she is happier than I have seen her before. The 8 year old is also having a difficult time finding things to do. I want to limit his video gaming and T.V. because I never did it with the older ones and they didn't have success. He only chooses to do gamecube unless I tell him, "Let's see if we can find something else to do." Then he finds all kinds of interesting things. But if given the choice he would rather just to t.v. and gaming. I also have a 5 year old. I am sad that she is having to experience some of this limiting stuff, as the others had years without it, but she is also now more interested in learning different things. She doesn't like to go out much but wants to do art and read etc. So, I am feeling like I wonder what I did wrong or different than you all. You seem to have had children who are interesting and creative with discovering interests. I must have left some component out. What I am glad of is that I have an absolutely wonderful relationship with my kids. They are loving and warm and we get  along well. They just make choices that don't include learning even the basics. They seem to want passive stimulation. They don't like to go out and do things. It may be due to the urban nature of our lives but, I don't know. Any ideas before I exit the list? I just need to find a way to help my kids be more productive.

Christine

[arcarpenter]

On Apr 5, 12:22 pm, "Christine Kuglen" <wanderf...@hotmail.com> wrote:
== You seem to have had children who are interesting and creative with
discovering interests. I must have left some component out.==

I wonder if it's a matter of perspective.

I would say that for both my kids, two of their favorite hobbies *are*
video games and TV. I'm not waiting for them to get interested in
something else. I'm enjoying their hobbies with them. They love the
time they spend with those things. We spend the time together -- we
connect over watching TV and playing games. We talk, and various
topics come up, and they learn.

Sometimes when we're connecting over a video game, we find we want to
do something else -- maybe play a pretend version of that video game.
<G>

I need to go -- my 3.5 year-old wants me to find some Katamari movies
on YouTube for him. People from all over the world post movies and
pictures of various things they have done with the themes of this
PlayStation game. I call that an interest, and we're about to go
explore it some more. <G>

Peace,
Amy

[wande...@hotmail.com]

Amy,

I appreciate your view but playing video games with a 3.5 year old is
what I have done. If that 3.5 year old were then 11, 12 or 13 and did
not know how to write his name, or know the names of the months or
have any desire to learn those things it becomes a different story.
You are right, I have been waiting for them to be interested in
learning to tell time or know how many days are in a month but that
doesn't seem to come for them on its own... I don't know why.

Christine

[nellebelle]

========You are right, I have been waiting for them to be interested in

learning to tell time or know how many days are in a month but that
doesn't seem to come for them on its own... I don't know why.

===============

 

Nobody can know everything, though most people, eventually, will have a need to be able to figure out what day or time it is.  It is a judgement call to say that any individual *should* know this by a certain age.

 

If your kids don't seem to know these, consider whether you ever vocalize it in their presence.

 

"Today is Monday.  I'd like to go to the grocery store this week.  I have enough milk (vegetables, whatever) for two more days, so I will plan to go to the store on Wednesday.  Would you like to come with me?  Let's make a list of other things we need or want."

 

"We are meeting our friends at the park at 1:00.  Before we go, we need to eat lunch and exercise the dog.  That will take about an hour, so let's start fixing lunch by 11:30.  That will give us an extra few minutes in case it takes us longer to get ready than we expect."

 

" 'Lingo' comes on at 4:00.  Let's set an alarm so we remember to watch it."

 

Do your kids have calendars or date books of their own?  Clocks or watches?  These are cheap and often very artful and fun.  Don't wait until a child knows how to use it.  Buy it for them just because.  Don't give them a hard time about using it right.

 

Mary Ellen

[Sandra Dodd]

-=- If that 3.5 year old were then 11, 12 or 13 and did

not know how to write his name, or know the names of the months or
have any desire to learn those things it becomes a different story.

-=-

My kids never had a desire to learn the names of the month, but they
already knew them before they knew what they were. We had a tape
(it's probably on CD now) called "Sounds Like Fun" from Discovery
Toys, and one of the songs was the months of the year.

My mom had told me (when I was grown) that she had learned the days
of the week by singing them to the tune of Yankee Doodle. The reason
she never taught that to me was that when the teacher heard her
singing that she got excited and asked her to sing it in front of the
class. My mom was traumatized so didn't tell me until I was grown.
So I sang it to my kid LOTS and they knew the days of the week before
they knew what that song was about. And because there are four lines
to the tune, singing a verse is singing a month. (Close enough.) I
remember trying to memorize the days of the week in order through
just recitation. It wasn't very easy.

So my kids know the days the months and the alphabet from songs.

-=-You are right, I have been waiting for them to be interested in
learning to tell time-=-

I never wait for my kids to be interested. There's a need to tell
time every day. I don't "teach" or "make them," I talk to them and
show them. The boys learned digital first and had a harder time with
analog (clock-with-hands). Holly learned and understood analog and
couldn't understand why anyone would use digital, which made no
patterned, logical sense. So once they were at the mall, when Holly
was the youngest and pretty young (six or seven? I forget now,
because I forget numbers) and the boys didn't know what time it was
because there was just a big public analog clock. So they had to ask
Holly, and she knew, and was thrilled.

If one child has a problem learning something, it's probably about
the child. Still, some people learn things late, and if that's true
it would have been true in school too but they'd've been tormented
there. If a whole family is having a hard time, maybe it's a
genetic similarity and it would've been true in school too, or maybe
the environment isn't conducive to natural learning. Asking people
who know the family in person for ideas might be helpful.

Sandra

[Karen Tucker]

Sandra, I've posted this before, but for the benefit of a new audience....you posted the story about the days of the week song long ago, and so I started singing it to Will whenever the need arose.  Now he sings it to count days on his fingers when he's trying to figure out how many days until something.  He's 13.  He sang it in the car last week just for fun.

That's how ideas spread.

Karen

[Jennifer]

I don't know what the answer is, but what strikes me
as strange is, HOW can a kid that old not know things
like the days of the week or how to write his name?

My four year old knows the days of the week because
it's in a Barney song.

My five year old knows the days of the week because
she'll ask things like, "What day do we go to the
park? Is that tomorrow, or the next day?" Also she
printed off a calendar on Starfall, hung it on the
fridge, and is marking off the days til her birthday.

My four year old doesn't write her name yet. My five
year old can because she likes to make cards for
people and she'll always put her name on it.

I guess every kid is certainly different, but to me it
seems strange to be living in a world with days and
months and things for a decade and still not know
about them.

Jenny

--- wande...@hotmail.com wrote:

> I appreciate your view but playing video games with
> a 3.5 year old is
> what I have done. If that 3.5 year old were then 11,
> 12 or 13 and did
> not know how to write his name, or know the names of
> the months or
> have any desire to learn those things it becomes a
> different story.
> You are right, I have been waiting for them to be
> interested in
> learning to tell time or know how many days are in a
> month but that
> doesn't seem to come for them on its own... I don't
> know why.

____________________________________________________________________________________
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http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121

[Joyce Fetteroll]

On Apr 5, 2007, at 12:22 PM, Christine Kuglen wrote:

> My 11.5 year old could not name the days of the week, the months of
> the year

I'm not sure when Kat (who is 15 now) could do that but I pretty sure
she couldn't do it at 11 either. She didn't *need* the days of the
week or months the way schooled kids do. We have calendars
prominently displayed. There were classes during the week -- the only
regularly scheduled thing during the week except for weekends -- but
I kept track of when we had to go.

I would bet it wasn't until she was 13 and going to college with Carl
2 days a week to take a course that the days of the week really sunk
in because it was a big impact on her life and what she could plan
for the week.

(I just asked her and she says she has the days of the week down pat.
But though she knows the months in order and knows what month it
currently is, she often has to run through the list to figure out
what next month is.)

I would think if your son was in Costa Rica for 3 or so years and
rather isolated, then time was probably even less important than it
was to Kat at that age.

As a matter of fact, Kat has an almost 11 yo friend who is vague
about the days of the week also. (It would be interesting to see if
she has a better grasp now that they play every Wednesday and
Friday.) She's the 3rd child of the family so the parents aren't
brand new at homeschooling.

> could barely read,

11.5 isn't late reading for boys.

> couldn't count to 100.

Are you certain of this? Video games involve a lot of numbers.

Or does he just not perform when asked? Or has he been shamed into
believing he can't or that he's wrong because he isn't as quick with
it as schooled kids so he avoids it? It happens *a lot* to schooled
kids: they have a negative experience with something (usually math
and reading) so they back off when they encounter real life
experiences where they'd absorb a natural feel for the concepts.

Have you played a lot of board and other games with them?

> Stuff that for sure was academic but not really. I do think these
> are basic skills.

They're considered basic because lots of people find them useful in
this society.

But they aren't to an individual if someone doesn't need them for
what they're doing. On a farm it's a basic skill to milk a cow, but I
have no clue how to do it.

> Upon return I did notice that my children were not doing some of
> the things that others could.

That, and a few other things you've said, set off alarm bells for me.
It sounds like when he showed he couldn't do what others his age
could, that it made you worry. Kids -- especially those with doubts
themselves -- do need to know we're confident that they can learn.

(Also, while you will see kids being able to do certain skills and it
*seems* like they all can, those who can't have learned not to let
others see that they can't. Kids *do* have the months and weeks
drilled into them in school. They *do* have schedules they need to
keep so the days and months are prominent in their lives. So most of
them do know them. It's just a way bigger part of their lives than it
is for unschooled kids. But unschooled kids *do* eventually learn
them when they need them.)

> He was very mature, got along well with others but had some
> emotional issues at home. A bit anxiety ridden upon leaving the
> house, very difficult with transitions, very self critical.

Many kids are like that. It's part of their personality. If you ask
about it, give some specific instances of when he's been anxious and
why, people can give you some strategies that have helped their kids.

> I just couldn't see that he was interested or motivated to learn
> even the basics. I did do some intervention for reading and it
> worked. He got reading and became an avid reader, which he still is

Kat was stuck with reading too. She needed to read more for it to be
easy. But since it was hard for her to read, it wasn't fun to get
more reading in to make it easier. She did eventually find a series
(when she was 12 or so) that she likes and has read a lot of them now
and reading is *way* easier for her.

> but he has no motivation to do much of anything.

But you know that's not true. What you *really* mean is he has no
motivation to do what you think he should be doing and should be able
to do. (And, by what you've written, what *he* thinks he should be
able to do.)

> He watched South Park, listens to music on his ipod, plays video
> games on his xbox but has NO INTEREST in learning even the basics.

I wouldn't say Kat ever had an interest in learning the basics. She
has *used* the basics in things she has done (video games probably
has drawn on math the most) and gotten better at them as a side effect.

> I still think he doesn't know the months of the year though I don't
> out right ask him.

If it bothers him, you can give him strategies for learning things.
Ask him if he'd like to learn the months and play around with the
concepts. (Maybe some people have some ideas.)

He shouldn't have to believe that absorption or being taught are the
only ways to learn something. Give him the power over the knowledge.
Give him strategies to help him learn what he wants to learn.

> It bothers him because the kids he knows do do things. They play
> instruments, draw or paint, have hobbies. One day I saw him google
> "hobby" just to see if he could come up with one. But unschooling
> has obviously not worked for him.

Do you think all kids who go to school have hobbies and things
they're interested in?

Do you think that the only reason kids in school don't have hobbies
is just because of time?

Maybe it's just from your focus, but what you've written sounds like
a lot of you watching them explore.

What do you do? Is all of what you do projects to get them
interested? Or do you get involved in your own things and explore
your own passions?

My daughter would never do crafts unless I brought them out. While
she loves doing crafts, for her a lot of the enjoyment comes from
doing it with someone. In fact, though she loves drawing comics, she
often asks me to drawn mine with her.

We have a friend who is passionate about trains. But he needed to be
introduced to trains to find that passion.

Are you passionate about anything? Are you sharing your enthusiasm
with your kids? It might help if your kids were exposed to people who
could let their passion wash over your kids.

> He has no interests that inspire him....just activities that he
> does to pass the time away, expresses lack of motivation, doesn't
> like to leave the house, and bottom line-doesn't look like a happy
> person to me.

I don't think that's unusual for 11.5. Not that it should be shrugged
off. It's still a painful thing to go through! But you shouldn't seek
a blame for something that's biochemical. Middle school teachers will
admit they really don't know what to do with middle school kids
(11-13). Kat watched *a lot* of Cartoon Network and Nickelodeon in
those years. She had been drawing comics before and then she said she
had writer's block. Then about 12 or 13 she started drawing again.
And now I practically have to beg her to watch anime with me during
the day ;-)

I think it was just that transition period between little kid
interests and pubescent interests.

(What's odd is that, though her story telling has matured, she's
still continuing with the same characters she did before her "cartoon
interruption" and the adventures are very similar. *Something* was
going on but it really isn't clear what.

> He only chooses to do gamecube unless I tell him, "Let's see if we
> can find something else to do."

Ren mentioned, in reference to dieting but expanded it to
unschooling, that it's better to think about adding things rather
than subtracting. Rather than substituting an activity when he turns
to the Gamecube, he should have a greater variety of choices before
hand so when he plays video games it's not because there's nothing
else that as fun and as readily available.

You can also plan days out rather than asking them. Often going along
with someone else's plans is more fun than trying to figure out if
what they're asking if you want to do sounds fun enough to put effort
into going to. Do make sure they're things the kids will find fun,
though!

From what you've written it doesn't sound like you've brought enough
to them. Not just things for them to do, but things for the whole
family. It sounds sort of like you're in an overseers position,
watching over them. I don't think they need cruise directory
intensity from you, but they may need to feel there's more of a
rhythm to life. That you're interested and passionate about exploring
and doing and that you want to offer them the opportunity to go along.

I don't know if any of that helps or not.

Joyce

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-(I just asked her and she says she has the days of the week down pat.

But though she knows the months in order and knows what month it
currently is, she often has to run through the list to figure out

what next month is.)-=-

I only recently got quick at knowing the numbers of August and
September. I've had to think in words and count on fingers to know
when I see a date like 9/20/07 whether it was August or September.
Partly that's my problem with numbers.

Holly didn't read until she was 11 and she's an extremely verbal girl.

Joyce's comments reminded me to add these links:

http://sandradodd.com/videogames

Choosing games isn't a bad thing at all.

and
http://sandradodd.com/nest

Lots of ideas there about creating an environment for unschooling.

Sandra

[Marina]

I notice with my kids that their jumping off point for things is my interest in something...I read and write for fun and they enjoy being part of this in their own way. 

 

While my 7 year old doesn't read at a grade 2 level, he enjoys being read Harry Potter (demonstrating an understanding of complex stories for older kids) and has internalized "reality" from books.  He demands that stories follow the "reality" they set up, meaning he is willing to suspend disbelief as long as there is an internal logic to the story.  At halloween we went to a party where the kids invented a story.  He was quick to point out the story had not ended yet because the characters started off in an alley chasing ghosts and then they went through a "timewarp" by falling in garbage cans, and that they had to re-emerge in that alley so they could go home and "live happily ever after". 

 

 While explaining that to a "teacher" or a "schooler" would be difficult, I am convinced there is more to reading and writing than the obvious(reading and writing).  Also, measuring time is an abstract concept and the days or months are arbitrary forms of measuring.  Many cultures and languages don't recognize our methods as they are culturally specific. 

 

A child involved in child-led learning would develop an understanding of time differently and might experience it differently.  When I don't wear a watch, my kids seem to understand about time passing as the sky is changing.  My oldest learn to count by channel surfing at age 5 and could count higher than his peers because we had a deluxe package with lots of channels, which we discovered we could no longer afford after a couple of years.  His brothers learned (and are learning) to count pennies or change and learning math through money.  I am constantly budgeting, and working on grocery lists and bills around them, so they picked this up. 

 

I think that unschooling is life learning and experiental learning...school is about the abstract concepts of days of the week, but life is about using time to pursue your interests.  I think unschooling works when kids are seen as part of our activities. My kids can cook.  People are amazed that my 4 year old can put flour, eggs, sugar, cocoa, sugar, milk and baking soda in a bowl on his own, without a recipe as he doesn't read.  He asks for help getting out the ingredients, and I almost always comply.  He greases a baking dish, and  turns on the oven.  He knows a cake will bake at 350 or 375.  He figured this out after underbaking and burning several treats.  He puts it into the hot oven, although I am the one who takes it out of the oven.  This is a mutual decision.  He has learned to use physics and chemistry in an applied fashion to make a cake, which we can all enjoy.  He also has a healthy respect for the hot oven.  He learned to bake because he liked baked goods, and realized that left up to me we would not be baking desserts as often as he liked!  This same kid is trying to learn how to read without learning the alphabet, something any kindergarten teacher would be appalled at.  But the names of the letters are useless abstract things to him, while the word sugar and the symbol in front of it hold the secret to making a tasty treat from my mysterious cookbook collection.

 

I think learning is a complex issue.  If you see a disparity between what your child accomplishes and what they do:  ease your mind by checking eyes, hearing or blood iron, too.  Lots of kids need glasses or dietary supplements.  Maybe there is a physical reason your child is missing common "skills".

----- Original Message ----
From: arcarpenter <arcar...@gmail.com>
To: UnschoolingDiscussion <Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 5, 2007 12:21:41 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: before I say good-bye

On Apr 5, 12:22 pm, "Christine Kuglen" <wanderf...@hotmail.com> wrote:
== You seem to have had children who are interesting and creative with
discovering interests. I must have left some component out.==

I wonder if it's a matter of perspective.

I would say that for both my kids, two of their favorite hobbies *are*
video games and TV.  I'm not waiting for them to get interested in

something else.  I'm enjoying their hobbies with them.  They love the

time they spend with those things.  We spend the time together -- we
connect over watching TV and playing games.  We talk, and various
topics come up, and they learn.

Sometimes when we're connecting over a video game, we find we want to
do something else -- maybe play a pretend version of that video game.
<G>

I need to go -- my 3.5 year-old wants me to find some Katamari movies
on YouTube for him.  People from all over the world post movies and
pictures of various things they have done with the themes of this
PlayStation game.  I call that an interest, and we're about to go
explore it some more.  <G>

Peace,
Amy

---

The best gets better. See why everyone is raving about the All-new Yahoo! Mail.

[Brian & Alexandra Polikowsky]

>
> I appreciate your view but playing video games with a 3.5 year old is
> what I have done. If that 3.5 year old were then 11, 12 or 13 and did
> not know how to write his name, or know the names of the months or
> have any desire to learn those things it becomes a different story.
> You are right, I have been waiting for them to be interested in
> learning to tell time or know how many days are in a month but that
> doesn't seem to come for them on its own... I don't know why.
>

It does surprise me that he would not know how to write his name. Because
of video games my 4 and a half year old can write his name and Mario's name
( from Super Mario games). He can also read many video game words like:
play, save, continue, file and many many others
We are waiting for MArio Paper game for Wii to come out this Monday and that
has led to names of the week days....So much we learn from video games I
can't even start to name all.
My ds has also been wacthing Paper Mario on YouTube to prepare for playing
the game.
And all the reading on video games....how can you not learn????
Alex

[Pamela Sorooshian]

On Apr 6, 2007, at 8:22 AM, Marina wrote:

This same kid is trying to learn how to read without learning the alphabet, something any kindergarten teacher would be appalled at.  But the names of the letters are useless abstract things to him, while the word sugar and the symbol in front of it hold the secret to making a tasty treat from my mysterious cookbook collection.

I don't think I've ever mentioned this, but Rosie (now 16) learned to read when she was almost 8 years old, and she did not, at that time, know the names of all of the letters of the alphabet. It wasn't that she hadn't been exposed to them, it was that the names didn't matter to her and so didn't stick in her brain. And, yes, she could sing the alphabet song, but that's also different than attaching the name TO the written letter form - she can sing songs in foreign languages, too, without knowing what the words mean. Also, knowing the names of the letters is not the same as knowing the sounds the letters might make.

-pam

Relay for Life

http://www.acsevents.org/relay/ca/longbeach/pamsoroosh

[Joyce Fetteroll]

On Apr 6, 2007, at 8:48 AM, Jennifer wrote:

HOW can a kid that old not know things

like the days of the week or how to write his name?

Interest. Need. Types of activities they're drawn to.

If kids are living a rich and varied life where they're coming in contact with a lot of different ideas, it helps unschooling flourish to let go of the idea that children should know something by a certain age.

Kat was, I'm sure, familiar with the names of the days of the week but if she knew it was Friday she couldn't have told you tomorrow was Saturday. I did out loud counting off when she would ask "How long until ...?" but I'm guessing the names of the days weren't important to her -- they don't add any extra information if you want to know how many days until something happens -- so they washed over her.

It wasn't until *she* needed the information that she made sense of it.

Joyce

[Joyce Fetteroll]

On Apr 6, 2007, at 2:03 PM, Pamela Sorooshian wrote:

And, yes, she could sing the alphabet song, but that's also different than attaching the name TO the written letter form

And knowing the alphabet song doesn't mean someone knows which letter follows another. I've heard at least one person mention over the years that they need to run through the alphabet or pieces of the alphabet when they're trying to figure out what letter comes next.

As with lots of school learning, the skill they really want kids to have comes as a side effect of what the kids are taught. But not always. And then the kids feel shame for not knowing something they're "supposed to" know.

Joyce

[Marina]

cool! 

----- Original Message ----
From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamso...@earthlink.net>
To: Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 6, 2007 11:03:55 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: before I say good-bye

---

Now you can have a huge leap forward in email: get the new Yahoo! Mail.

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-And knowing the alphabet song doesn't mean someone knows which

letter follows another. I've heard at least one person mention over
the years that they need to run through the alphabet or pieces of the

alphabet when they're trying to figure out what letter comes next.-=-

I do that, but I use pieces of the song to do it.

When I pick up a dictionary, I turn generally to the part I want and
then I do (in my head, without actually singing <g>) "l-m-n-o..." or
whatever leads up to the letter I need.

I don't know what comes first or next, near the end of the alphabet
except for Z. The others have to sing. I don't mind. It hardly
slows me down to sing (mentally) three or four syllables of a song.
I'm doing it all the time anyway.

Sandra

[Pamela Sorooshian]

I have been waiting for them to be interested in

learning to tell time or know how many days are in a month but that

doesn't seem to come for them on its own... I don't know why.

Unschooling isn't waiting for kids to be interested in learning things, it is supporting their learning all the time in natural ways. But, the unschooling parent doesn't sit back and wait for the kid to decide they want to learn to tell time, but, instead, makes sure that the child gets encouragement and support for learning to tell time in natural ways if and when telling time really does, in real life, matter.

Were your children raised bilingually, by any chance? (Guessing from you saying you'd lived for years in Costa Rica.) That is another consideration - sometimes the need to develop an ability to be processing two languages at once can delay other kinds of learning, in both languages. 

When my now-19 year old was about 13 or 14, I asked her to open a can for me. I was very surprised to discover that she didn't know how to use a can opener. I did not make some sort of big deal out of it, but I did show her how to do it and I thought of giving her the opportunity to open some cans when we were camping the next time.  I didn't get all upset and say unschooling isn't working because she didn't learn how to use a can opener, I just noticed it and found ways to support her learning. I also didn't wait for her to "decide she was interested in learning" to use one, either. I just noticed it was a basic skill that she didn't have, yet, and I created opportunities for her to learn it. Days of the week, months of the year, telling time, and all that - these are "basic" because they're useful. But if the child hasn't found them to be useful, then they're not basic to him, they're extraneous. Some things really ARE extraneous to our kids' lives, things we might still think of as basic (telling time on an analog clock, for example, is truly no longer a very important skill). Using a can opener was extraneous to my kid because we don't use a lot of canned foods. 

I'd treat these other so-called basic skills just like the can opener - make a little extra effort to find opportunities for them to pick up the information or ability. Do you need to count something? Ask your son to count with you, to help you keep track. Collect lots of pennies? Have him count them and put them into penny wrappers and let him have the money to buy a new game. Doesn't he save money for things? Never counts it? Never collected change to make a dollar to buy something? 

I remember you talked about dyslexia and reading and what you did to help him learn to read - included Drake Institute and other professional help. Maybe he needed that help or maybe the time was just right in his development to be able to read, but, either way,  he will now think that he couldn't do it himself, that he wasn't capable of learning something without professional help. So, that is something else to consider.

[Laureen]

Heya!

On 4/6/07, Sandra Dodd <San...@sandradodd.com> wrote:

> I do that, but I use pieces of the song to do it.
>
> When I pick up a dictionary, I turn generally to the part I want and
> then I do (in my head, without actually singing <g>) "l-m-n-o..." or
> whatever leads up to the letter I need.

I know lots of people in my generation who are able to recite the
Preamble to the Constitution by singing it to the Schoolhouse Rock
tune. (Why would we need to know it instead of just look it up? I have
no idea. I had one teacher who graded us not on whether we got the
words right, but whether we got the commas in the original locations.
How's that for goofy? He *knew* we all knew the song, but the pauses
in the song don't coincide with the original comma placement.
::sigh::)

So why do we know it that way? Why has it stuck all these years?
Because music is the best memory "trick" ever, the folks who created
Schoolhouse Rock knew that and banked on it, and here we are, 20+
years later, with this information stuck in our heads because of the
entirely catchy tune used to surf it into our brains.

Nothing at all wrong with using whatever it takes to get the info into
your brain in a way that makes you happy, and that helps you with
recall. Rote is not superior to song, IMO. =) It's just less joyful.

--
~~L! (who would bet money that various people reading this email will
be humming the Preamble tune all day long!)

~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~
Writing here:
http://www.theexcellentadventure.com/
http://lifewithoutschool.typepad.com/

Publishing here:
http://huntpress.com/
~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-Rote is not superior to song, IMO. =) It's just less joyful.-=-

And therefor inferior to song. <g>

-=- I had one teacher who graded us not on whether we got the

words right, but whether we got the commas in the original locations.
How's that for goofy? He *knew* we all knew the song, but the pauses
in the song don't coincide with the original comma placement.
::sigh::)

-=-

What a prick.
To finally get a batch of kids who know all the words and then
penalize them for having learned it effortlessly is a sadistic,
horrible thing for him to have done. Do you have his e-mail address?

Sandra

[arcarpenter]

On Apr 5, 12:22 pm, "Christine Kuglen" <wanderf...@hotmail.com> wrote:

== He watched South Park, listens to music on his ipod, plays video
games on his xbox but has NO INTEREST in learning even the basics.==

==They seem to want passive stimulation.==

Seeing TV and video games as passive stimulation is becoming a very
foreign concept to me.

My husband majored in Communication Arts and Sciences, with a focus on
Video Production when he was an undergrad. From our early days
together, he was always pointing out *how* TV shows and movies were
made -- how the perspective was framed, how the editing decisions
worked with the overarching philosophy, as well as "how did they get
that shot?" questions. That's part of our everyday conversation when
my family watches TV together.

As a writer, I'm always looking at the story behind the story as
well. How is the story structured, what are the creators
accomplishing by giving this action to that character, and so on. We
talk about those factors whether we're playing video games and while
we're watching TV shows and movies. Our understanding is complex and
is focused on the whole story system, instead of the details and the
basics.

Recently, I skimmed through a book on the video game industry. That
got me thinking more about the process behind putting together video
games -- how the graphics are rendered, the project management aspect,
how the dialogue is written to be flexible enough to sound relevant at
various stages of the game, how the process of creating the story is
changed by adding interactivity. Fisher (almost 10) has a couple of
those "Choose Your Own Adventure" books, and we were talking about the
ways in which video games would be much more complex to create than
those books are.

Our whole family loves music. My husband scours the library and out-
of-the-way places for new music and brings it home. He makes
compilations of the best stuff that he finds. We play the
compilations in the kitchen while we're all hanging out together, and
there are some songs that Fisher is just taken with. He dances, he
hums -- I can see him thinking about how the music is put together,
and why it speaks to him.

Given this interest in music, we recently took Fisher to a Blue Man
Group concert -- his first real "grown-up" show. Again, I could see
all the connections being made -- he watched how the instruments were
being played, listened to how the sounds and the rhythms came
together, jumped and bopped his head and let it all come together
inside of him. His knowledge and awareness of music is growing deep
and wide -- it's not about "the basics," but about a gestalt, a
holistic, systemic approach.

When you ask what component you are missing, this is what I keep
coming up with. Are you looking in the wrong places? Are you looking
for the basics when in fact, your son's knowledge and understanding is
deep and wide and whole? What you see as "basic" are just a few Lego
pieces that he'll fill in as he goes -- but in looking for those, are
you missing the incredibly large, whole creation that he's built up?

For us, the adults in the house blend our own experience and knowledge
with what our kids seem to like doing. We start where they are -- we
get into it and appreciate it and enjoy it. Is it possible that your
son thinks he doesn't have hobbies and interest and passion because of
your attitude that what he was doing didn't count as such? Because
*you* saw it as passive?

For us, right where are kids were -- loving music and TV and video
games -- was a great starting place for more. Going to concerts,
finding out how different bands have influenced each other, figuring
out how people have made the movies they've posted on YouTube,
researching FAQs, talking with other gamers, looking up weapons that
are used in the video games, playing the music we've heard in video
games, pretending and finding new connections through our pretend
games, talking through the logic of different strategies, looking up
actors on IMDB -- all of this keeps leading to more and more learning
about how the world works, about how the creative process works.

I just keep looking for where "passive" comes into this -- and I'm not
finding it. There is an aspect of observing, of letting the
experience fill us and wash through us as we consider how to use it,
how to store it and bring it into our worldview. But it's not at all
passive.

Peace,
Amy

[Betsy Hill]

**

His knowledge and awareness of music is growing deep
and wide -- it's not about "the basics," but about a gestalt, a

holistic, systemic approach.**

Yeah, rote learning is different from immersion-style life learning in a couple of crucial ways. Maybe the mom who started this thread is the type of person who does memorize abstract tidbits easily. That's a learning style that some people do have. But I often see a schooly approach to "basics" as stripping something down into itty bitty pieces and then making a big deal out of memorizing the names of the pieces. That's one simple kind of knowledge, and it fits well on pop quizes, but it's only a shadow of one part of learning.

I can understand that taking factoids, even days of the week, out of context and trying to make kids memorize them is the ineffecient (and perhaps exasperating) route to learning. And it's likely to lead to shallow learning, not deep comprehension or understanding. I believe that real context is important to making learning be "meaningful". Either it has meaning, or it just doesn't.

(I'm mostly just responding to your use of the word "gestalt", which does carry a lot of meaning for me. I think in Education classes there's some talk about "part to whole" learners, who like to start with small pieces of info, vs. "whole to part learners" who like to see the whole, big picture first. To me it feels normal to learn from the whole.)

Betsy

[Cally Brown]

My boys were all in their teens before they knew the order of months, or
even days of the week. At least one didn't learn our home phone number
until a similar age. They didn't NEED that information. It was of no
obvious use to them. They knew heaps of other stuff that I knew nothing
of though. How to identify a bird, flying so far away I wasn't even sure
if it was a bird or a speck of dust on my glasses, and plants (he
learned to read at 12 1/2). How to read music (my oldest son didn't
learn to read words till he was 9 1/2, well after he could read music).
I could list a whole heap of other stuff they knew before they knew days
of the week / month etc. BTW, I didn't actively encourage my youngest
from learning to read because his next up brother couldn't (the one who
didn't learn till he was 12 1/2), but he still learned in his own time
just like the others - he started reading at 3 1/2 and was reading at an
adult level at 5.

#1 learned to read at 9 1/2, is now 26 and working doing structural
steel welding
#2 learned to read at 8 1/2, is now 23 and studying Performance Jazz
(saxophone though recorder is his favourite instrument) at university
#3 learned to read at 12 1/2, is now almost 20, is working at a copy
shop (though is an artist in his spare time, hopefully will make it full
time one day), has just been given yet another pay rise, and his
employers are about to take on his younger brother as a part timer,
because if S says J'd be good, that's good enough for the boss.
#4 learned to read at 3 - 4, is now 16, and is an awesome person too,
who learns what he wants, when he wants, and will succeed at whatever he
decides he wants, I know. At the moment his life is filled with music
and dancing, but he thinks he wants a career in computing. In the mean
time the part time job will buy him some good dancing shoes :-)

It is not our place to judge the value of our children's interests and
learning, it is for us to encourage and facilitate their choices.

Cally
>

[arcarpenter]

You wrote about your son:
==A bit anxiety ridden upon leaving the house, very difficult with
transitions, very self critical.==

Yes, this is a type of personality that some kids have. I was this
way - I see it come up in different ways in my sons. I think
unschooling works way better for this type of kid. School or school-
at-home exacerbates the anxiety to the point where it can be
crippling, in the experience of our family.

What works best for this personality type seems to be to connect with
them wherever they are. Connect, laugh with them, and accept them as
they are playing video games - and *then* invite them to do something
new, with you right there by their side. Something that's just a
small shift, at a natural pause when they seem to be looking for
something new. This is subtle and will take your attention and
awareness to notice it.

In every child I know with this type of personality, they eventually
get to a place where they are interested in pushing themselves a
little further - this happens only when all external pressure is off
of them. Your relationship with your son will continue to be the most
important thing. When he's trying to figure out the next level of
growing up, he's going to really need you there, without judgment but
with trust that there's a niche in this world that perfectly fits who
he is. Only when you come with that attitude can you be helpful in
exploring the next step.

I do believe that if you try schooling or school-at-home now, you will
damage the thing that he needs in order to make his own way in the
world. I suspect he has his own way of viewing the world -- for
unschooling to work that needs to be celebrated and understood, not
dismissed out of fear that he's not learning the basics.

Peace,
Amy

[Brian & Alexandra Polikowsky]

That is what I meant Joyce. The names of the days of the week come up. YOu know them You may not know wich day comes before wich but you know the names because there are everywhere in life. I meant it that way because the OP said he did not know them. Heck english is my second language and them I learned Spanish and French ( just basic French) and I still have to think the correct order. I don't need to do it in English anymore because after using everyday you learn it just like our kids will... living life. MY ds  does not know the order but has heard the names a lot from every thing around.

Alex

----- Original Message -----

From: Joyce Fetteroll

To: Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 1:07 PM

Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: before I say good-bye

[Laureen]

Heya!

On 4/6/07, Sandra Dodd <San...@sandradodd.com> wrote:

> And therefor inferior to song. <g>

Whoot!

> What a prick.
> To finally get a batch of kids who know all the words and then
> penalize them for having learned it effortlessly is a sadistic,
> horrible thing for him to have done. Do you have his e-mail address?

No, this was 20 years ago, when I was in high school, and I never
looked back after I fled that place. But it was a lesson that stuck
with me... Rowan's not quite five, and he can't read yet, nor write
his name (which completely freaked my MiL out, but that's another
story)... but he's been able to sing every verse of "Big Rock Candy
Mountain" for better than a year now.

His memory is lyric, if there is such a thing, and so when we are
discussing remembering things, we work on jingles together.

Conjunction junction...what's your function? <bwg>

--
~~L!

[arcarpenter]

On Apr 6, 12:30 am, wanderf...@hotmail.com wrote:
==> I appreciate your view but playing video games with a 3.5 year old

is
> what I have done. If that 3.5 year old were then 11, 12 or 13 and did
> not know how to write his name, or know the names of the months or

> have any desire to learn those things it becomes a different story.==

I also have a son who will be 10 in June.

Fisher sometimes writes his first name -- sometimes it looks a little
raggedy --
but I don't know that I've seen him write his last name. He might not
know
how to spell it -- then again, he's seen it on our mail, so I suspect
it's coming together for him. It's not like he needs to turn in
papers like in school. He usually types his first name into video
games.

He writes on and off -- usually lists for characters he's made up for
video games and TV shows. That's why I consider video games and TV
shows to be interests - they provide a springboard for more
connections, more learning.

Sometimes Fisher doesn't want to write his lists, so I write them for
him. It makes sense - he's trying to think about the characters
themselves, and having to write them out slows him down and gets
frustrating. Sometimes he watches me write, and I know he's figuring
things out from watching me.

His big interest in working with text is when video games ask him to
write something or choose a phrase. Typing is more important to him
than writing by hand, because it ties into his interests. In our
computer-oriented society, that's okay.

==You are right, I have been waiting for them to be interested in

learning to tell time or know how many days are in a month but that

doesn't seem to come for them on its own... I don't know why.==

Hmm ... with something like telling time and using a calendar, that's
not even an "interest." Those are tools to support our interests, and
the learning happens along the way.

We tell time in order to figure out when our favorite TV show is
coming on. <G> For other things too, but I want to relate what I'm
saying to what you've said your son likes.

Fisher is faster than I am at figuring out "how long until" to the
exact minute. My habit is to round to the nearest 5 minute mark, but
he likes to know exactly.

I didn't ask him to do it, and I didn't quiz him on it. We just did
it
together, and then he could do it on his own.

I do see Fisher sometimes running into the kitchen to use the digital
clock that is there -- this is especially when he's too engrossed with
his own thoughts to be able to translate the symbols on the analog
clock.

At other times, we look at the analog clock together and tell the
time. He can do it, but he likes me to check. Often while we're
thinking in this mode anyway, we'll start counting by fives or
multiplying by fives -- more as a rhythm game than a math game.

Fisher might not be able to name the months in order, but he can use a
calendar. He has one in his room, and there's one in the kitchen that
the whole family uses.

We have the release date of the new Pokemon Pearl game written on the
kitchen calendar - he likes to count down on a daily basis. "Sixteen
days until Pokemon Pearl!!" <G> He's done that with lots of video
game releases, or when he's waiting for GameFly to deliver a rental.

He also flips through the pages and counts off the months (and
sometimes weeks and days) until the next birthday, or until Halloween
or Christmas. Just a few minutes ago he was looking at the calendar
and remarked in passing that we better color our eggs today or
tomorrow, as Easter is this coming Sunday.

These conversations often happen as I'm fixing dinner or cleaning the
kitchen, as an aside, something to pleasantly pass the time.

As far as how many days to each month - boy, I didn't know that until
I was an adult. My mom tried to teach me the rhyme, but my version
went like this one I found online:

Thirty days hath September,
All the rest I can't remember.
The calendar hangs on the wall;
Why bother me with this at all?

<G>

But when I was in my twenties, my husband showed me the knuckle
calendar. It's easier to show than tell, but here's Wikipedia's
explanation:

You can also use the knuckles of the four fingers of your hand and the
spaces between them to remember the lengths of the months. First make
a fist, then begin listing each month as you proceed across your hand.
All months landing on a knuckle are 31 days long and those landing
between them are not (it's up to you to figure out February). When you
reach the knuckle of your little finger (July), go back to the first
knuckle and continue with August.
For the first time, I could remember without looking at a calendar!

And I've needed to do so maybe a handful of times. <G> *Maybe* that
many.

I'm quite sure Fisher doesn't know this information. It will come up
in conversation someday, just as it did between my husband and me.

So here's where I'm confused. Are you quizzing your son about these
things? Because that's not at all how I check in with my boys. We
have our conversations very casually, about what they love, and lots
of other parts of life come in through those conversations. Instead
of focusing on what's *not* there, I focus on what is there, and that
part just grows and grows.

Peace,
Amy

[Sandra Dodd]

-=

> Maybe the mom who started this thread is the type of person who
> does memorize abstract tidbits easily. That's a learning style

> that some people do have. -=-

It will never turn to music, though.

-=-(saxophone though recorder is his favourite instrument)-=-

Woohoo! Recorder. I have two recorder "students" (three kind of,
recorder-playing buddies who are just beginning) and they all learn
very differently. One used to play saxophone, so it will be easy for
her. One learns by ear. The other started learning by ear, but
learned to read music because I told him it was just a graph with
several kinds of information on it and he could ignore it, but we
were working from the Trapp Family book which has some VERY nice
duets even for people who only have three or five or six notes. He
learned to read music in just a week or two.

He learned to read music but he doesn't know the names of the notes.
That's like learning to read English without naming letters.

He knows which spot on the staff corresponds to which note on the
recorder. He knows a couple of alternate fingerings, so he has more
than one "pattern" for that spot on the staff (same sound), but he
doesn't know it's a B, or an F. It doesn't matter yet.

I've been playing recorder several times a week lately, and learning
more about how different people learn.

Sandra

[Opal Dreaming]

 

> (I'm mostly just responding to your use of the word "gestalt", which does carry a lot of meaning for me.  I think in Education classes there's some talk

> about "part to whole" learners, who like to start with small pieces of info, vs. "whole to part learners" who like to see the whole, big picture first. 

> To me it feels normal to learn from the whole.)

I have heard these two types referred to as 'packers' ['part to whole' or linear thinking] and 'mappers' ['whole to part' or radial thinking].  The education system is predominantly designed for 'packers' which is why, I believe, 'mappers' have a particularly hard time functioning well in that environment.  There also seems to be a link between so-called ADHD and 'mapping'. 

 

Also.. re video games and learning.  I was speaking with a Thai man at a wedding recently who, it seems [his english was not very good], is working with the Thai government to introduce video games into their schools.  Why?  Because they work *so* well!  Apparently the plan is to create games which encompass the Thai school curriculum.  I thought this was interesting.

 

Peace,

 

Col

 

 

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

[visser]

Amy, that is a piece of knowledge (length of months) which I personally have
felt very frustrated at not being able to remember. I am always having to
go and look at the calendar just for that information (not sure why, right
at this moment, but really quite often) and everytime I wonder to myself why
I can't remember it. I sort of know the poem but not well enough to be sure
I am reciting it correctly...end up checking on the calendar.
I just did the knuckle thing, and not only understood it but saw the PATTERN
to the months that I have never noticed before. A pattern that is probably
going to stick in my head now even without the knuckles.
Others may find this knowledge is not useful in their lives, but this gem is
going to save me many frustrated walks to the calendar when I am doing other
things.
The kids and I often make paper chain, links, whenever we have a count down
we are looking forward to. At the moment I have one across my ceiling which
represents how many sleeps till our holiday to Aussie. Every morning
someone rips off one link and reads the number of sleeps written on the next
link ie "52 sleeps to go"!!!!!!
We do things like this a lot which is why I am always surprised that I STILL
can't remember the length of months. (always time to learn the so-called
basics:-)
Thank you!
Sallyanne

----- Original Message -----
From: "arcarpenter" <arcar...@gmail.com>
To: "UnschoolingDiscussion" <Unschoolin...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 9:22 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: before I say good-bye

>
>
>

[Joyce Fetteroll]

On Apr 6, 2007, at 6:29 PM, visser wrote:

Amy, that is a piece of knowledge (length of months) which I personally have 

felt very frustrated at not being able to remember.  I am always having to 

go and look at the calendar just for that information

There's a more portable way to remember. :-)

Make two fists and place them side by side in front of you, knuckle side up. Starting from the left, the knuckles represent the months with 31 days, the valleys between represent the months with 30 (or 28/29 for February).

Notice that the knuckles of the forefingers are next to each other with no knuckle-valley between them, representing July and August which both have 31 days.

Joyce

[iftheresaway]

I just want to point out that I'm almost 22 years old and I still sing
the "alphabet song" if I'm looking for a CD at Borders or something
like that. As a matter of fact, if you want to make it really special,
I am 22, got a 790/800 on mt SAT verbals, and I work (and make money!)
as a freelance writer, and still sing my abc's to find a CD in
alphabetical order. It hasn't ruined my life yet.
-Shelby

> > Sandra- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Have A Nice Day!]

>>From what you've written it doesn't sound like you've brought enough
to them. Not just things for them to do, but things for the whole
family.<<

<snip>

I notice with my kids that their jumping off point for things is my
interest in something...I read and write for fun and they enjoy being
part of this in their own way.

***************************88

I think this was a mistake that I made too. When my kids were
younger, I was pretty engaged with them, or they were engaged with
each other or with friends. We live in a rural suburb area though and
there were more people/kids/activities available to them without my
direct involvement all the time.

But as they got older, they got less and less interested in outside
activities and wanted to "hang out".

I think there is a difference between doing something because you want
to do it, and doing it because there is nothing else to do. When
someone is pursuing a passion, they are *engaged*. When someone is
passing time, they are *bored*. And that boredom is what can lead to
trouble I think, and may have contributed to the trouble we
encountered.

One of the things I learned too is that my kids really needed me to
"start something" so they could jump in. They weren't as able to just
go start something on their own. Instead, they'd "pass time" doing
whatever was most convenient, even if that wasn't really what they
wanted to be doing (and often they didn't *know* what they wanted to
do).

This also extends to long term goals that they have. They ask me to
intervene and get on them to stick to their plans for their goals.
Even my 18 year old son, who chose to go to school this year, and
HATES school, but wants a certificate in masonry, chose to stay home
rather than move out so that his dad would get him up in the mornings
and he wouldn't miss school by oversleeping.

Anyway, I just wanted to sympathize and throw my own thoughts out
there!

Kristen

[Sandra Dodd]

-=I think there is a difference between doing something because you want
to do it, and doing it because there is nothing else to do. -=-

Yes.
Too many parents say "they have toys" or "they're doing something" or
"if they get bored enough they'll find something to do," as though
all activities are equal. If a child is doing something and thinking
sad thoughts, it's not NEARLY as good, it's not even in the same
category or realm, as a child doing something and feeling joy and
excitement.

-=-One of the things I learned too is that my kids really needed me to

"start something" so they could jump in. They weren't as able to just

go start something on their own.-=-

Absolutely. And there are moms who say "unschooling didn't work for
us. My kids aren't self-motivated." In every case, it seemed the
mom wasn't much motivated, but wanted unschooling to be some sort of
thing that could happen while she cleaned house in the other room.

Sandra

[Have a Nice Day!]

-=-One of the things I learned too is that my kids really needed me to
"start something" so they could jump in. They weren't as able to just
go start something on their own.-=-

Absolutely. And there are moms who say "unschooling didn't work for
us. My kids aren't self-motivated." In every case, it seemed the
mom wasn't much motivated, but wanted unschooling to be some sort of
thing that could happen while she cleaned house in the other room.

********************

I think in my case, I just didn't totally understand that unschooling can
mean that the parents do the "starting" so the kids can jump in. And I ran
into other problems too. Often I would offer ideas of things we could do
together, and was turned down. Nothing seemed interesting enough for the
kids, and then they would wander off and get involved in something else, so
I thought they were happily engaged. Many times they were. But many times
they probably weren't. Now if I had it to do over again, I would just say
"hey lets go do this", and get us all in the car and go unless they
absolutely protested.

My health has been an issue and oftentimes it interferes with just being
able to up and go, or up and do much of anything. I wish that hadn't been
such an issue. But I still think it was better than sending them to school.

My older two kids got involved with the wrong crowd. But other than that
they had a loving family and a lot of choices and a lot of freedom. If they
had gone to school (and they have tried school on different occasions) the
wouldn't have had even any of that. They might have had better friends, but
they wouldn't have had anything else. And one of the things that I've found
just recently with the CTC (that surprised me, given its really a "higher
education institution") is that they don't think about "high school
students" any differently than the local public schools. When Anthony took
a college course two years ago, it was SO different, and so much nicer.

Public schools think of kids as a product on an academic assembly line. They
do not VALUE kids or their uniqueness or individuality. They can't because
its all about "mass production". Its not possible. And its not so bad at
the teacher/student/parent level. Its much worse at the administrative
level. I had to stand up for my 18 year old son to an administrator a few
weeks ago who was WAY out of line. I took the time to do my research on the
problem before I called her and left her a message telling her she owed my
son an apology. When she called me back, she bold faced lied to me three
different times. Why would she LIE to me!? Because she fully expected me to
be like many public school parents whose kids "end up" in the CTC (votech)
because they couldn't succeed at academics. These are parents who have
given up on their kids and take administrators at their word. The guidance
counselor even told me that it was so nice to see parents who cared so much
about their kids when we had a meeting with them earlier this year. She
told me it doesn't happen very often.

Anyway, I nailed the administrator's ass to the wall and from what I can
tell, even now a few weeks later, the rest of the staff seems to have been
cheering me on. I knew she had lied to me, and she knew I knew. She was
caught with her pants down. And I was totally disgusted that she would try
such a tactic with me. If she would try that with me, a parent, one can
only imagine what they do to their students just because they feel like it.

Anthony tells me that since my "conversation" with her, she has stopped
singling him out. Imagine that.

Anyway...sorry to get off on that tangent, but it convinced me that nothing
can be worse than a public school for kids whose parents love them and care
about them.

Kristen