"Secret Ballot" Ads Are Deceptive

[lebanonfan]

If you haven't seen the ads about Lunsford wanting to take away a
worker's right to a "secret ballot" in voting on whether to have a
union in the workplace, you haven't turned on the TV or radio lately.
Mitch McConnell has been running ads and also a front group that
sounds pro-worker has also been running similar ads. What?! Taking
away a worker's right to a secret ballot? It sounds down right un-
American!

Here is an explanation that helps make some sense of why the airwaves
are being blanketed with this..."propaganda". Whether you are for
unions or against unions, you probably don't appreciate misleading
political advertising, and that's what this ad campaign is.
________________________________________

Union-bashing disguised as concern for workers
Written by Bill Londrigan
Sunday, 17 August 2008
Union-bashing disguised as concern for workers

Kentucky's workers and voters should recognize that the recent rash of
anti-union TV and radio ads are nothing more than propaganda intended
to divert the attention of the electorate from the critical issues of
the day: health care, good jobs, education, trade, retirement
security, energy security and the war.

Voters should reject the cynical premise of this ad campaign along
with those responsible for its dissemination.

The ads' principle claim is that the proposed Employee Free Choice Act
would take away a worker's right to choose union representation by the
traditional or ”secret ballot“ election procedure. Not true. Under
this legislation, there still would be an option to have the National
Labor Relations Board administer ”secret ballot“ elections at the
workplace.

Under the current system, employers are the ones who make the decision
whether to call for an NLRB election — which they often do because it
gives them months to run an aggressive anti-union campaign.
The Employee Free Choice Act would put this decision in the hands of
workers. If 30 percent of them choose to have an NLRB election they
can; if they prefer majority sign-up, they will have that option as
well.

Majority sign-up is not a new approach. For years, employers such as
AT&T, Cingular Wireless, Harley-Davidson and Kaiser Permenente have
allowed that majority sign-up, finding that it results in less
hostility and polarization in the workplace than the failed NLRB
process.

The ad campaign attempts to deceive the voters into thinking that
Employee Free Choice is on schedule to be voted on in Congress. The
bill was passed 241 to 185 in the House on March 1, 2007. The U.S.
Senate passed it 51-48 on June 26, 2007.

But thanks to arcane Senate rules, Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-
Ky., and company were able to obstruct passage in spite of the
majority vote. If there is some sense of urgency associated with these
ads it is that McConnell, the obstructionist in chief, is in trouble
this November.

Those responsible for these ads, the Center For Union Facts (more
appropriately the Center for Union Mis-Information and Propaganda) and
its allied organization, the Employee Freedom Action Committee, are
the creation of Richard Berman, who has a reputation for mounting
vigorous media misinformation campaigns on behalf of wealthy, unnamed
clients.

Accordingly, Berman ”never discloses his financial backers, allowing
large, mainstream companies to fund him without having to associate
their brand names with his sharp-elbowed approach,“ according to the
Nov. 3, 2007, Las Vegas Sun.

It is an insult to the hard-working men and women of Kentucky that
someone like Berman would try to convince them that he, his
organization and its rich contributors are on the side of workers.

The Kentucky backers of this propaganda include state Rep. Jim
DeCesare, R-Rockville, who sponsored the 2006 ”right-to-work-for-less“
bill.
What a joke. Wealthy businessmen, CEOs and anti-union politicians —
who have opposed unionization at their workplaces in the most vigorous
manner and support anti-union, anti-worker legislation — want us to
believe that they care about workers' rights to join a union.

A clear example of why the Employee Free Choice Act is so needed is
the 15-year struggle by the nurses at Louisville's Norton Audubon
Hospital to have a union election free from harassment, intimidation,
surveillance and other illegal management tactics.

As The Courier-Journal reported on July 24, ”the National Labor
Relations Board has issued a complaint charging Norton Audubon
Hospital with coercing nurses to vote against a union. The complaint
alleges that hospital managers told nurses that they could lose wages
if a union came in and that they kept pro-union nurses from
distributing literature.“

It is long past time that workers reject this wholesale undermining of
their right to collective bargaining to improve their living and
working conditions and support candidates who support the Employee
Free Choice Act.

Don't be fooled by the ads of these phony front groups. Their goal is
to help re-elect McConnell so he can continue blocking legislation
critically important to the workers of Kentucky and the nation.

[Foxtrot]

Have you ever been involved when a group of workers try to unionize?
Well I have and it gets very nasty with all kinds of peer pressures on
employees from the unions. Unions are as about as popular and useful
these days as the Model A rumble seat. My company had about 80
salaried qaulity control specialists to form and join a national
union. These people all had at least 2 years of college and the
company treated & paid them well with an outstanding fringe benefits
and retirement packages. In fact, all were within the top 10% tier for
Fortune 500 companies.

When they unionized they got the screws put to them because they
didn't listen. The company played by the rules and tried to warn them
the best they could without causing legal issues.End result, these
inspectors lost about 30% of their gross pay, fringe benefits ever
more, they had to began paying high monthly premiums for their
spouse / children, and their retirement package was cut in half, plus
all overtime was eliminated, Same union tried to go after the office
non exempt employees and needless to say it didn't happen. BTW, based
on my experiences that ad has a lot of truth to it. Even with a secret
ballot there are lots of pro union peer eyes watching who votes and
tries every means possible to find out who opposes them. People got
their houses egged, tires cut, auto paint scratched, etc.... Sorry, I
have no problem with that ad.

[lebanonfan]

Fox, maybe you like the ads because the views expressed are in line
with your views about unions in general. However, the ads are
deceptive as to what the legislation is really about.

> > critically important to the workers of Kentucky and the nation.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Jazzy-J]

I am against a union at UK and fought vigorously against it - even
discussing it with my "good friend" Rep. Stan Lee (R) - and I believe the
ads to be entirely misleading.

McCONnell should be ashamed.

- JazzyJ

[Foxtrot]

LF - No doubt, I'm anti union. I've been on both sides of the fence
dealing with them..

Mitch didn't need this ad to get him elected but I'm glad he put the
focus on unions. Union are masters at controlling the polls. They
play the most dirty politics and have had a long history doing so.
Ultimately, it ended up costing JFK his life because unions got
involved to get him elected. They manned the polls and got dead people
to vote not once but multiple times for the Dems. Jimmy Hoffa and the
mob bosses know the full story. Warning: Jimmy may be a little hard to
find so good luck. LOL

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[KY Hooligan]

This is basically a battle of the Unions vs WalMart. They are trying
every trick to force WalMart workers into unions. They have yet to
succeed in the US but they did force one area in Canada to pass a law
and now those WalMart employees are forced to join.

Here is the national story about this bill.

http://townhall.com/columnists/ScottBensing/2008/08/20/secrets_are_no_fun_for_unions?page=full&comments=true

[lebanonfan]

KH, this Townhall.com looks like one of the websites that have sprung
up this election cycle to promote the propaganda (according to Who Is
it started August 8 this year). At any rate, I didn't see anything in
the article you suggested that mentioned Walmart. But you may be right
that Walmart has an interest in the legislation.

Though the legislation had bipartisan support and passed both the
house and senate handily last year, it was held up by Mitch McConnell.
The ads from Berman's groups are playing everywhere Republicans have a
race this fall.

The "secret ballot" talking point is being used as a wedge issue.
Obviously people are very passionately against "bad" unions. Who
wouldn't be against a bad union or shady tactics by union bosses? And
what American doesn't believe in the importance of a "secret ballot"?
The thing is that the proposed legislation doesn't deprive an employee
of a secret ballot at all - the change is that the company will not
have control over the ballot and can face some concrete consequences
for basically being thugs to people considering unionization.

If the law is that bad, why would Mitch and company have to resort to
ads that lie?

On Aug 22, 3:52 pm, KY Hooligan <Swiftboat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is basically a battle of the Unions vs WalMart.  They are trying
> every trick to force WalMart workers into unions.  They have yet to
> succeed in the US but they did force one area in Canada to pass a law
> and now those WalMart employees are forced to join.
>
> Here is the national story about this bill.
>

> http://townhall.com/columnists/ScottBensing/2008/08/20/secrets_are_no...

[Taylorcofan]

Great point and I have never seen the secret ballot information
before. I have a hard time believing this is true.

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[lebanonfan]

I can't believe RW didn't weigh in on this one.

[KY Hooligan]

Truthfully this (secret ballot issue) has been going on for quite
awhile. The title of a Bill may sound good but it's the fine print
that is worrying people.

So if the Union lies or a Liberal lies that is ok because he is a
Liberal but if McConnell lies it is only because he is a Republican.
Nice theory LF. I suspect you don't like McConnell because he has
blocked a lot of Socialist programs because you love paying more taxes
if they got approved.

On Aug 22, 5:48 pm, lebanonfan <lebanon...@yahoo.com> wrote:

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[lebanonfan]

Fox,

No, you've got me wrong. I don't like false advertising no matter who
is doing it. It really is not a Dem/Rep thing on this. Lunsford is not
my kind of guy either. You don't know me from Adam, so all you really
have to go by is what you've learned or interpreted from me here.
Maybe I really ought to go over and check your files. Then you might
realize I'm not quite the ogre you have in mind.

As for McConnell, I used to think he was good for us because he is a
high ranking senator now. I changed my mind when I realized he is not
using that rank to help us here in Kentucky - the people who have
repeatedly elected him to congress all these years. I came to that
conclusion only after reading the Lexington Herald Leader's piece on
McConnell that came out a year or so ago. If you search this group for
the article you can find it because I was so astonished by it that I
put the whole thing on here. I'm not sure if it's available on the
Lexington Herald site now.

Bottom line is that McConnell's ads about the labor union issue are
based on falsehoods. As much as I enjoy political talk it took me
awhile to figure out what was going on on this particular issue. I
couldn't figure out why McConnell was so worried about the average Joe
when historically that has never been the case. It really did take
some digging to find what I did because the internet is so littered
with those new websites put out there as distractions to anyone
seeking the answers on this.

[lebanonfan]

OOOOOps.

Sorry.

I meant to address this to KY Hooligan - not Fox.

It's late and I guess it's past my bedtime!

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[KY Hooligan]

I know you like to belittle things but you should do a better job of
homework so you'll have a clue what you are talking about. They have
been online since 1995.

No and I didn't infer that the article was about WalMart, it inferred
about the Bill which dealt with the topic here...the Unions and the
Secret Ballot. Do try to keep up.

On Aug 22, 5:48 pm, lebanonfan <lebanon...@yahoo.com> wrote:

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[rwhi...@elkcreek.net]

I haven't seen any of the ads..

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[Taylorcofan]

The mystery is solved.

On Aug 23, 1:47 am, KY Hooligan <Swiftboat...@gmail.com> wrote:

if McConnell lies it is only because he is a Republican.

[Foxtrot]

Hooli - Did you ever notice the union lovers are the first to complain
when jobs go overseas? Of course to hear them talk they are not the
problem. It's always somebody else's fault.... Hey, good employee's
don't need a union because they stand on their own work performance.
Unions only protect the lazy, the "you owe me" people and believe the
employer is the bad guy. With their numbers significantly dwindling,
thank the Lord they are a breed that will eventually become extinct.
GE has been outsourcing for almost 40 years now and I don't blame them
one bit.

[rwhi...@elkcreek.net]

Fox: Your answer tells me that you have had little or no experience in
the real working world.

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[Foxtrot]

RW - Too Funny! You're even more wrong when it comes to me than you
are discussing the economy with Frug. Hey, I guess well over 30 years
in management working for a Fortune 500 company doesn't count in your
book. What kind of company do you work for anyway? Are you really
working for a Mom and Pop shop? Nothing wrong with that but obviously
you never had any experience interacting with unions. Why don't you
share your career experiences with us?

On Aug 24, 3:59 pm, "rwhitl...@elkcreek.net" <rwhitl...@elkcreek.net>
wrote:

[rwhi...@elkcreek.net]

Thirty years....or thirty years ago???

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[Taylorcofan]

But rw just remember we can be anything we want to be on here.

Browneyes do you believe your husband was protected by a union because
he was a lazy, "you owe me people?" I bet not. Shew what work! LOL

On Aug 24, 3:59 pm, "rwhitl...@elkcreek.net" <rwhitl...@elkcreek.net>
wrote:

[rwhi...@elkcreek.net]

By definition Fox: Your career was completely devoted to managing in a
Union environment...where there is NO incentive for leadership...

On Aug 24, 4:41 pm, Foxtrot <ram1969...@yahoo.com> wrote:

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[Foxtrot]

RW - What an asinine statement but you never cease to amaze me. I
guess working for one of the largest corporations in the world doesn't
count. Are you familiar with annual performance appraisals, quarterly
accountability reviews, management by objectives both qualitative and
qualitative, peer, superior and subordinate reviews, required to take
a min of 40 hours annual classroom management training off site, pay
for performance, etc...? Obviously you've never managed in a union
environment or not managed at all.

Approximately, 15% of union employees need constant direction but the
remaining are self motivated good employees, utilized their skill set
so, why should they pay union dues only to protect the lazy? If good
valued employees aren't treated properly by the company they will just
move on, thus their previous company has to go to all the added costly
expense of retraining replacements? Naw, RW I don't know anything
about managing in a union environment. BTW, I retired well after year
2000 so does that make me obsolete by your standards? I would love to
see CyclePro's opinion about your comments. Bet he is falling out of
his chair laughing.

On Aug 25, 9:23 am, "rwhitl...@elkcreek.net" <rwhitl...@elkcreek.net>
wrote:

[Jazzy-J]

I believe one thing we've lost in this great information age is the ability
to look at something in its entirety without automatically putting it in
some preconceived category.

Of course, we've always had that problem - look at the issue of race. But
it seems the problem has grown and now touches everything. Your own
experiences will define which categories you throw things in...

Such as some people who see the word "union" and automatically throw that
into a "bad, evil" category without even examining the particular union or
the issue. Some people would automatically throw "union" into a "good,
strong" category automatically believing the union is always the champion of
good with no real examination of the details.

I can't say all unions are bad nor all unions are good. I think if each of
us examines the individual issues, we'll see that there can be both.

I'm appreciative of LF and her research to bring the truth to light about
these deceiving ads. The truth is getting more difficult to come by these
days.

- JazzyJ

[cheshirecatldy]

Fox, I managed union workers and it was a bitch.
.I couldnt fire someone who was blatantly not working without getting
union approval, even for something I witnessed everyday until the
point the person was a danger to themselves and everyone around them!
I fought a firing for 2 years and the person was TRANSFERRED, with MY
division paying their wages until the other department took them
in............
I came from a union house when I was growing up, I was all pro union
and then I started managing union workers......
it is a different environment.
not all union workers are lazy, but the union does allow a lazy person
to get away with alot:
Examples: looking at porn on company computers and not being fired,
insubordination without firing, sleeping on the job and not being
fired, gross neglect of duties and not being fired, causing
disturbances and clashes among workers and the write up was thrown
out, claiming disability for a condition the person has had since
childhood, leaving gasoline within striking distance of a large
incinerator and writing the person up for causing a danger, and a
grievance was filed and the person was not reprimanded, etc...........
These are all first hand experiences I have had managing union
employees and there are more. Forget about the annual reviews, if they
dont like what is said, they file a grievance and there you are
fighting again. My union workers really didnt seem to care if they
did their job or not, or if the job was ever done, as long as they
clocked in for their 7-8 hours and at the chime of the bell to get off
work, they were gone--- hit the road running. I ok'd ot but they
STILL claimed they were union, they dont have to work over their
hours, hell they could call in that day and take a personal day
without any notice or prior approval from ME, didnt matter if I didnt
have anyone else working, it was in the contract and they did
it......... yeah still pisses me off.
oh btw, the employees I am familiar with were MADE to pay union dues
even when they didnt want to. they were MADE to join the union when
they didnt want or they would be ostracized by their fellow co-
workers. And, the co-workers were narcs on each other, made that way
by the union foreperson and they were definitely narcs for the union
in re the management and other non union workers.

[Jazzy-J]

They were forced to pay union dues and be passive members of the union
whether they wanted it or not because of Kentucky law - not because of the
union.

This is the reason I fought the union at UK. If the university recognized
the union, under Kentucky law we would all be required to pay dues. Were
that law changed - something I discussed with Rep. Stan Lee - I would not
have been so opposed to the union.

- JazzyJ

[cheshirecatldy]

that is not fair

[rwhi...@elkcreek.net]

Two Questions Fox:
How many years did you manage in a Non-Union Environment?

The other pertains to your quote:

Are you familiar with annual performance appraisals, quarterly
accountability reviews, management by objectives both qualitative and
qualitative, peer, superior and subordinate reviews, required to take
a min of 40 hours annual classroom management training off site, pay
for performance, etc...?

After all of that training and all of those off sites, after all of
those cheerleaderesque flavor of the month efforts to
get it's management to do it's job...After all of those
initiatives....Were you successful in persuading the majority 85% of
those employees to vote the union out???

My bet is no.

The best error is one that never occurred.....thinkaboutit!

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[cheshirecatldy]

ps
I forgot to tell ya what we did to curb the union "problems"
we started to change job descriptions and pay rates, thus hiring
people for non union jobs, it worked pretty well

> > - JazzyJ- Hide quoted text -

[Foxtrot]

CCL - You summed it up extremely well. Where I worked when a
supervisor fired a union employee for a clear cut violation of company
policy all they needed was approval from the next level of management.
The union steward's only recourse was listen, attempt to plead their
case then file a formal grievance 2 or 3 days later. Don't know about
you it was like water rolling off a ducks back when a union steward
filed a grievance on me.

It was always a big game for them to test management just because
they paid union dues and foolishly felt they had to get the best bang
for their buck. It was as if the union wrote their payroll check
instead of the company. Almost all of the good union employees were
even embarrassed by the bad conduct of the lazy and would later say
off the record, the violator earned it. Again, 85% of our union
employees did their jobs without incident and that is why I've said
unions weren't needed. And in over 30 years never did I see the first
overworked or the first terminated without justification. Simply, many
union employee's like to complain just for the sake of complaining.

The closest I ever came to losing a case in arbitration was when a
suspension was reduced from 3 to 2 weeks. No matter how hard managers
tried to be fair, the troublemakers would work harder to get out of
work than actual performed. Usually, these 15% union employees with
poor work performances found a way eventually earn a termination pink
slip. Heck, I remember over a 3 year period I wrote up 125 times and
every one of them got ripped up. I'd listen to their arguments for
about 5 minutes and that was it. I was lucky to have good backing from
my managers. On my performance reviews they would say, "Keep
documenting personnel files just as you have in the past. I always
tried to treat the employees just like I expected to be treated but I
didn't put up with any BS crap either. If you did, they would eat you
alive.

Finally, my company got fed up with dealing with unions and ended up
transferring almost all their jobs overseas. This was after Executives
attempted to negotiate fairly with our unions numerous times but
clearly shot themselves in the foot. They blamed everybody but
themselves and it cost them over 5,000 excellent paying jobs in just
Louisville alone. Our machine operators were the highest paid non
skilled employees in the world (yes, i said world) but some still
complained. Sad part about it was a lot of innocent hard working union
employees got the shaft because they were forced to belong to
unreasonable unions. In the early years management made too many
concessions and once you give any union anything, you won't get it
back. Case in point, look at the big 3 auto's and GE once employing
23,000 here in Louisville and it is closer to 4000 now. Gosh, the
unions sure showed management didn't they? Gosh, what a bunch of
losers???

[rwhi...@elkcreek.net]

News flash for ya skippy! The Non Union Jobs went too!! Its called
globalization by the gurus...I call it the beginning of the end of the
U.S. middle class...Now which party proclaims itself to be Pro
business??? I call it pro greed!!!

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[rwhi...@elkcreek.net]

PS L.F....Chime in there any time..........You got me into this fight!

On Aug 26, 8:22 am, "rwhitl...@elkcreek.net" <rwhitl...@elkcreek.net>
wrote:

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[cheshirecatldy]

we just changed the job descriptions and the pay rate!
I always liked it going into a meeting with the union steward and he
would say " that is ok, I will get it thrown out" I would say that is
ok, he/she will get written up again and again, three strikes you are
out!!!!!!!!!!!

[Foxtrot]

Yep, that quote meant "Supervisor, You Got Me." Furthermore, it didn't
take long to get the 3 strikes either. They just never got that all
management wanted was from them to show up to work everyday, do their
job and go home to their families.

[cheshirecatldy]

exactly
I especially wasnt trying to stick it to em, I had work to be done and
needed them to do it.!!!

[Foxtrot]

FAIRNESS wasn't part of their agenda. I always like the classic line,
"Hey boss, it ain't my job." My response was I think it is so do it,
and file a formal complaint later if you so choose. Their mindset was
if they wrote you up that higher management would scold you. What they
didn't know if the foreman backed down, the brass would have you on
their red carpet. The disgruntled union employees tried every way
possible to screw the company (their choice of words) but failed to
realize who was signing their paycheck.

When the company closes it sure is a lot easier to get another job if
you have something to put on a resume. It is imperative higher
education along with experience be included. If not college then a
trade school if very important. There is always a demand for skilled
labor and management employees. You may have to relocate to another
state but I've always said I have to eat first, then worry about my
mailing address.

[cheshirecatldy]

I even had someone tell me they new all the policies, the union
contract and anything else backwards and frontwards, they told me this
to my face, they knew how to get around everything!!! I told that
hag, I knew the policies and procedures too and I had a copy of the
contract, so do your job and we wont have anything to worry about!!!!
I kept pointing out one little thing that was written in their
contract, an honest days pay for an honest days work, well you should
have seen her and the rest of the trouble makers get off their
ass!!!!! Although, I had to keep on em!!!! I made a point of telling
the sleepy fellow who slept on third this, and surprise, he woke
up!!!!!!!!!!
Needless, to say, I was not always the favorite manager!!!!!!! oh
well!!!!!!!!!

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[lebanonfan]

I've missed out on this group for a few days, but tonight I am back
and I am really interested in whether Fox believes women have had the
same opportunity as men in this country when it comes to doing the
same kind and amount of work for the same pay? And, in your view, do
you feel women have had the same opportunities for advancement in
careers as men have?

[Foxtrot]

Past tense (70's and earlier) - NO..... Present tense (80's forward) -
YES.... My career spanned both and I worked and sometimes tested
executive stiff shirts to promote qualified women to higher positions.
Has the system been perfected? Absolutely NOT.... If you keep Govt out
of telling private enterprise how to manage then progress could
occur....EOC has been both good and very bad but I won't go into that
here....