Iran tests 'new weapon' for use at sea

[cheshirecatldy]

does anyone else think ahmadinanutjob is up to something??? looks like
iran may be threatening to block oil shipments.

Iran tests 'new weapon' for use at sea

Aug 4 01:12 PM US/Eastern
By NASSER KARIMI
Associated Press Writer

TEHRAN, Iran (AP) - Iran announced Monday that it has tested a new
weapon capable of sinking ships nearly 200 miles away, and reiterated
threats to close a strategic waterway at the mouth of the Persian Gulf
if attacked.
Up to 40 percent of the world's oil passes through the Strait of
Hormuz, a narrow passage along Iran's southern coast. Tehran has
warned it could shut down tanker traffic there if attacked—a move
likely to send oil prices skyrocketing.

The warnings came two days after a deadline expired for Iran to
respond to incentives from six world powers, offered in exchange for a
promise to curb its uranium enrichment.

Later Monday, the U.S. State Department said the group—the five
permanent members of the U.N. Security Council, plus Germany—agreed to
pursue further sanctions against Iran because of its failure to meet
the Saturday deadline.

Iran and the West have been mired in a standoff over the country's
disputed nuclear program. The United Nations has already slapped Iran
with three rounds of sanctions, over its refusal to stop enriching
uranium—a key process that generates either fuel for a nuclear
reactor, or the fissile material for a bomb.

Iran says its nuclear program is for peaceful purposes only, to
generate electricity.

Revolutionary Guards commander Gen. Mohammad Ali Jafari said Monday
that the new marine weapon is "unique in the world" and has a range of
300 kilometers (186 miles), according to the state news agency IRNA.

That's within range of U.S. warships deployed in the Persian Gulf.
Last month, Iran tested missiles it claimed were capable of reaching
1,250 miles (2,000 kilometers) away—putting U.S military bases in the
Middle East as well as Israel, Turkey, the Arabian peninsula,
Afghanistan and Pakistan all within striking distance.

Monday's report gave no details on when or where the new weapon was
tested. Its range indicates it could be a type of torpedo, but state
radio called it a missile.

Jafari warned Iran would respond decisively if any military strike is
carried out against it.

"Enemies know that we are easily able to block the Strait of Hormuz
for an unlimited period," he was quoted by state radio as saying. "The
strait and vessels are in range of our various weapons."

Both the U.S. and Israel—which shares American concerns over Iran's
nuclear program—have said they would prefer a diplomatic solution to
the standoff with Iran, but have not ruled out other options—including
a military one.

Israeli analyst Ephraim Kam, a former senior intelligence officer,
dismissed the new weapons test.

"They are always boasting about their weapons and their military
capabilities and saying how unique they are, but they are usually just
standard military weapons," he said.

[Foxtrot]

Another perfect example why agreements & sanctions with terrorist
leaders don't work ? This is why I've said we need to elect another
non liberal leader that can play hardball with Iran and alike
countries. I'm all for diplomacy, but when that doesn't work after the
first warning, it is time for Plan B and I can guarantee Iran won't
like it. Unfortunately, in our lifetime the only way to achieve peace
is through strength and we've proven that over and over. Liberal's
don't understand that nor will they ever get it and that is why they
are a danger to America. They play this game - well Israel has them,
why not Iran? Israel is responsible and do you want to risk letting
Iran get NUKES The answer to than is simple common sense- NOT A CHANCE
- NOT ON YOUR LIFE.

[cheshirecatldy]

All I see is while we sit and have tea and kookies mr ahmandinanut
will close down the area where the oil comes from..
I dont think the old "inflate tires" will help much when that
happens: It is going to happen, he has a threat in there folks.

> > standard military weapons," he said.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[dennis]

So, he says he will close the strait if attacked. Doesn't he have the
right to do that if a foreign country attacks him?

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[fisherman]

One thing George W. Bush's famous Texas saying has taught us is, "fool
me once and you can't fool us again." Can we believe anything that
comes out of this administration, about Iran. Remember Iraq?

[cheshirecatldy]

dennis
he isnt saying just if he gets attacked, he is saying he (Iran) could
close that strait for an undeterminable amount of time, I take this as
a warning and as a threat.
he doesnt have to wait to be attacked and I dont think he will. HE
WANTS TO BE ATTACKED, my opinion.
it is all my opinion of course, but I see this:
If he blocks the strait is then attacked, what will that solve? will
it open the strait? probably not.
if someone attacks first and then he closes the strait as retaliation,
same thing....
he may just have us, the world, by the jewels, if ya know what I
mean. This is how he can 'rule the world"!!!!!

ps to answer you question, sure I think anyone has the right to
protect themselves. Yes, if we had this type of power I think we
would do it to.
sticky sticky sticky

On Aug 4, 5:38 pm, dennis <dgeorg...@alltel.net> wrote:

[sadness]

The EU is also cracking down on Iran as well,it's not just the US. If
the EU is involved,it's something serious.

The open move in any war with Iran be made by the Israelis,considering
the president of Iran has threating to wipe Israel off the map,and
denied that holocaust ever existed. Iran is upgrading there nuclear
capability at a very fast pace which I find to be worrisome.

[Taylorcofan]

Like this lie...and we all fell for it at first. Reminds me of the
"Gulf of Tonkin Revisited"

Quote:
"Pentagon Officials spun the 6th January incident between US warships
and small Iranian boats in the Strait of Hormuz in order to create the
illusion of Iranian military aggressiveness. A short video with added
audio warning US warships would "explode in a few seconds" was fed to
the media. Deputy assistant secretary of defense for public affairs in
charge of media operations Bryan Whitman was responsible for the
initial fabrication, which has since been denied by Navy Officer who
were involved."

video, boats in the Straits of Hormuz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qHHAUuey5A&feature=related

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/85820

[cheshirecatldy]

sadness, something is happening and/or going to happen. I find it
very worrisome indeed.

[dennis]

He said they will close it if attacked...

Iran announced Monday that it has tested a new
weapon capable of sinking ships nearly 200 miles away, and reiterated
threats to close a strategic waterway at the mouth of the Persian
Gulf
if attacked.

[cheshirecatldy]

corrected ( I again am reading without my eyes)

I think Iran will close it without being attacked, my opinion, or they
will try
now, if any country is attacked, I dont think anyone would say they
shouldnt defend themselves.

dennis, (hypothetical)
what happens if they test this new thingy they have (IF they have new
thingy) and it hits someone ,like say, us! Then they close that
strait as a result of them "accidentally" hitting,lets say, us, you
know as precaution.
should WE attack then? would you see that as being attacked upon? or
would it be them:"oops sorry didnt mean to do that, our bad." and we
say, "oh thats ok, accidents happen. have another cookie, more
tea?"

[sadness]

Prepare for a regional bloodbath once that waterway closes.

Iran may own the waterway,but they do not own the cargo that passes
through the waterway. It's like cutting off the Panama Canal. A lot
of nations depend on that waterway to get there goods through and if
Iran disrupts trade,you can just say Iran is bombing the sovereign
states that uses the waterway,because a lot of nations besides America
depends on the strait to get there goods through.

On Aug 4, 7:14 pm, dennis <dgeorg...@alltel.net> wrote:

[cheshirecatldy]

YES you are correct
maybe Iran wants to rule the world?

[sadness]

Remember the Iran-Iraq conflict of the 1980s. 1980 to 1988, Another
such war could breakout with much higher casualties if Iran should
close the waterway.

Arabs and Iranians hate one another with passion. Iraq tried to kill
the Iranians off with chemical weapons.

Iraq hates Iran
Turkey hates the Kurds
Turkey hates the Armenians
Everybody got it in for the isrealis and Americans
Shites hates the Sunnis
Shites hates the kurds
Sunni hates the kurds.
India hates Pakistan
Afganstan hates Russia

The middle east is too unstable and dangerous for nukes. India and
Pakistan is already one powder keg that could blow any day.
Terrorism is also plays a factor in preventing Iran from getting
nukes.

[cheshirecatldy]

you are right, but with the possibility of closing that water way,
they dont NEED nukes

[dennis]

Do you consider Israel part of the Middle East?
Should they be the only country in the Middle East with nuclear
weapons?

[cheshirecatldy]

dennis,
are you asking me?
personally, I dont think ANYONE needs them: Therefore, if ya ban one
ya ban em all.

[Foxtrot]

Dennis - Do keep asking the latter question over and over? Are you
saying because Israel has them so should IRAN? It's just a simple YES
or NO question?

On Aug 5, 7:55 am, dennis <dgeorg...@alltel.net> wrote:

[dennis]

I just think if Israel has them , then other countries should be able
to possess them as well.

[Foxtrot]

Even terrorist countries? Think about what you said and the
ramifications.

Based on what you said, shouldn't murderers be authorized have them
along with law abiding citizens?

I don't think you really get it. I know you don't have any love for
Israel but they've demonstrated for decades they are RESPONSIBLE.
Iran's leader is a loose cannon that said he would wipe them off the
face of the earth. Now you tell me that Iran and Israel should both
have them. Again, I just don't understand your logic, but I guess
you'll never fully explain your reasoning. In my opinion your
statement is very DANGEROUS, to the point it is almost asking for a
death wish. Could you just be explicit and not dance around this very
serious issue that threatens the world?

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[CyclePro]

Dennis the better question to ask is "Who would you Trust to have
Nuclear Weapons"?

[CyclePro]

So Dennis, you have rationalized that other countries are equally
RESPONSIBLE when it comes to these types of weapons?

Since Islam is a "Decentralized" political system built around a
religion of war and conquest, which has chosen to Fight it's enemies
(ie Infidels) via Proxies, What would the "Risk" propability be for
such groups using such a weapon?

These groups don't use the SAME logic as the USA and Former USSR.

You can start by thinking of this as an exercise in Rational
Thinking. Would you place the Risk as "Low", "Medium", or "High"?

For this exercise, I'll make the assumption that you'll "Choose" -
'LOW'.

Now then, a good strategist has to then look at what are the factors
that would raise this risk? Dennis, could you spend some time to
answer what these factors might be...

And finally, what would the "ACTIONS" be to 'Lower' such risks?

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[dennis]

So CP, are you saying the United States should dictate which countries
can possess nuclear weapons?
What if, in fact, some countries possess nuclear capabilities to
produce energy?

[CyclePro]

I'd surely think the United States is in your list of Responsible
Countries. It is on MINE...

Yes, it is in our National Interests who can possess such weapons.

The same questions arise for Nuclear Energy. Do you Trust such
countries to NOT enrich the Uranium for a Bomb or use the spent fuel
rods as a "Dirty Bomb"?

[Foxtrot]

So Dennis you are back to pulling a Kevin on us. You are answering
questions by asking questions to further complicate the subject? I
think I know where you are heading with this so let me make a few
statements if that will get you to ANSWER both CP's and my questions.

- We've been the leader of the free world long before I was born. I
believe had it not been for the United States we would either be
speaking German or Japanese as our first language. Do agree?

- We've spent billions and billions on foreign aid without repayment.
When countries are in desperate need of assistance who do they come to
first? Yep, it's the United States because we are a generous and
caring nation. So what if we've spent money to "buy friends" for
decades, but we both know they can turn on us quickly.

- Had we not been the leader would there even be an earth as we know
it today or better yet would there even be civilization living on our
soil today? I vividly remember the Cold War Cuban Missile crisis,
scared to death would we live one day to the next. I remember the
drills and the threat that nukes would be the end of us all. And yes,
it was reality because even in the 1960's Russia and the U.S. could
have easily destroyed the world several times over. Thankfully, both
CIVILIZED nations achieved PEACE through MILITARY STRENGTH.

- Of course some countries use nuclear power productively. Why do you
as a habit use that as an excuse to rationalize bad behavior by
hostile terrorist countries destroy millions of people?

- Since we have lead and given so much why is it so bad that we
protect our interests at home by being one of many free nations
protecting our interests / allies just to be able to LIVE or better
yet EXIST? Is that unacceptably behavior or do you concur with extreme
liberals that we are a nation of BULLIES? I'm sorry, but if protecting
my property, family, friends, and or nation to live in freedom is
being a BULLY then so be it? We've invested so much so what is bad
with getting a return on our investment solely just to live in peace?

- Do you agree that we live in such a dangerous world that our borders
no longer protect us from enemies abroad? Therefore, isn't it better
to fight on foreign soil rather than our own?

- Yes, some nations use nuclear energy productively, but there is a
fine line that it can be converted to weapons that can kill millions,
given the technology to convert. So, why is it so bad to ensure they
don't fall into the wrong hands of brutal terrorist murderer's?

I have a very good friend that is considered to be an expert on the
Muslim / Islam world and he is about as an objective and fair person
as I know. I've known him for over 25 years and even as great friends
he never spoke about the subject to me until 2 years ago. He speaks
the language fluently, has lived there, studied the culture for years,
knows the Koran inside and out, definitely knows their political
process, their capabilities, and long term objective. He also knows
that fanatics rule and their long term objective is to divide and
conquer all "infidel's". Their mission is non negotiable but don't
take my word for it. Just remember their recruiting is massive and
they start the indoctrination process almost from birth and they are
relentless.

I can tell Cycle Pro is very knowledgeable but he is also very
diplomatic. Yes, I'm more adamant because I don't mind admitting that
I fear these people. Because of that I know if we aren't very
proactive there will come a day probably in our children's lifetime
that being reactive is far too late. Now I'm off my soapbox. It is not
my intent to change your mind, but just to get you to entertain being
open minded to understand this is a very serious life or death
situation. Trust me, they want us to ignore because it makes their job
much easier. I reiterate, negotiations are non-negotiable with them,
not when their God is telling them their reward is much greater in
heaven than on earth.

[dennis]

We are not the rulers of the world. It is not up to us to decide which
countries can do what and which countries cannot.
The fact that we are a leader of the free world does not mean we are
the rulers of the free world.
The fact that countries come to us in their times of need does not
mean that we are the rulers of the world.
Just because some countries have fanatical leaders does not mean they
will not use their nuclear power for other reasons.
This is a global world. We see it in our economy and other ways.
However, Fox, you surely don't believe that Iran and/or Iraq are a
military threat to the US. If so, give me your reasons.
Israel can use their nuclear weapons to destroy other Middle Eastern
countries just as easily as the other countries can turn on Israel.
We could care less about what goes on in the Middle East save for the
oil supplies that they have beneath them.

[fisherman]

Now you've put your finger on why we are so hated around the world
Dennis. We have had a leader with a cowboy mentality and have been
seen as the bully of the world under George W. Bush. That's the reason
why so many will vote for Obama, they are sick of our stubborn, narrow
minded leader and are ready for someone who will bring peace,
prosperity and peace back to America.

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[smileyface]

"Department of Redundancy Department".........lol

:) SF

[jsb]

WE are hated around the world???? Please! Who hates us and then
please tell me WHY they hate us!!!!

> > > > > > > > > > > > Iran disrupts trade,you can- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more »

[fisherman]

Start with IRAQ maybe. Do you need to be told why, or do you want to
guess.

[fisherman]

That's what ol' Larry said. Redundancy.

On Aug 5, 3:16 pm, smileyface <bnelc...@kyol.net> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Iran disrupts trade,you can- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more »

[jsb]

Yes, please tell me. There are approx. 6,446,000,000 people in the
world and how many of them hate us?

> > please tell me WHY they hate us!!!!- Hide quoted text -

[fisherman]

Why people hate America, from an American. A great video and simple
enough for anyone to understand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPmH_d7A9-g

People hate America and Americans because America has supported
repressive monarchies and dictatorships. Ignored torture and other
human rights abuses by (their) allies. Suppressed and helped attack
democratic movements. In May 2001, the U.S. was voted off the U.N.
Human Rights Commission, to express dissatisfaction with America's
foreign policy. They hate our arrogance.

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[sadness]

Pakistan and India is a good example of why Iran does not need
nukes.

US is real stupid for trusting Pakistan. I rather be in India's camp.

On Aug 5, 11:33 am, Foxtrot <ram1969...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> ...
>
> read more »

[jsb]

Amazing. Thank you!

[dennis]

Hey Fox, when is a country justified in using a potent weapon such as
a nuclear bomb or something like that?

[cheshirecatldy]

anybody
what do you think the world would be like WITHOUT nuclear weapons?

[rwhi...@elkcreek.net]

Uh....JSB...A Geography Trivia Question:

What Nationalities were represented on the 4 airplanes that were
hijacked on 9/11???

Bonus Question: What Nationality WAS NOT represented in those
attacks???

http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/09/14/a-quick-quiz-on-arabs-islam-911-racism-and-ignorance/

> ...
>
> read more »

[CyclePro]

And fish,
Can you tell the group "WHO IS ON that VERY SAME UN Human Rights
Council?" TAKE a GOOD LOOK.
Saying we are arrogant isn't even Close. Those VERY same Countries
understand MIGHTILY that we are a Far Better Nation than ALL of them
put Together.

Our Enemies "Hate" America and Marxists & Communists Hate America. It
has Nothing to do with our current War on Terror either. Marxists &
Communists have been foaming at the MOUTH for the past 30 years at the
USA.

GET a CLUE...

We also have "Progressives" that are to the Far Left in this Country
that have built their Political Ideology around Power and wanting to
do anything to Obtain it.

Granted, the USA has made a few mis-steps in its Foreign Policy from
time to time. However, we ARE not the Rulers of the World, their is a
DIFFERENCE. ALL other Nations/Empires in History resorted to Conquest
from War.

WE HAVE NOT, this is a Big Difference. Granted, we haven't came to
EVERY Nations request for Help. Rwanda comes to mind. This example
also shows how in-effective the United Nations was at dealing with
this example.

However, you may wish to site some examples for those "Suppressed and
helped attack 'democratic movements'. You wouldn't be alluding to any
of those South American 'Democracies' would you?

[rwhi...@elkcreek.net]

CP: Click your heels and get on back to Kansas....Before the
flatearthers find out your gone!

[CyclePro]

Well fish, you also have to ask 'What type of Iraqi'. During my
second tour in Iraq, I met MANY Iraqi's that didn't want my Unit or
our US Marine troops to LEAVE. Once we'd cleared out the "Bad Guys",
we Marines helped restore Order and MANY Iraqi's understood what we
were doing. I'd helped many small communities setup small Water
Purification Systems as these communities had been living under very
harsh conditions indeed.

THEY STILL DO... AND WE AREN'T DONE YET...

I quess today's critics of the War on Terror, haven't met any of
Iraq's Northern Kurds. Those communities are Thriving!!!
And those very same critics don't get to see the Coptic Christians and
Marsh Arabs of the South Rejoicing for SETTING THEM FREE.

> > please tell me WHY they hate us!!!!- Hide quoted text -

[rwhi...@elkcreek.net]

wait a minute fisherman...that was way too eloquent for George W
Bush...


On Aug 4, 4:41 pm, fisherman <winterfisher...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> One thing George W. Bush's famous Texas saying has taught us is, "fool
> me once and you can't fool us again." Can we believe anything that
> comes out of this administration, about Iran. Remember Iraq?

>
> On Aug 4, 5:38 pm, dennis <dgeorg...@alltel.net> wrote:
>
> > So, he says he will close the strait if attacked. Doesn't he have the
> > right to do that if a foreign country attacks him?
>
> > On Aug 4, 5:27 pm, cheshirecatldy <crzycatldy8...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > All I see is while we sit and have tea and kookies mr ahmandinanut

> > > will close down the area where the oil comes from..
> > > I dont think the old "inflate tires" will help much when that
> > > happens: It is going to happen, he has a threat in there folks.
>
> > > On Aug 4, 5:14 pm, Foxtrot <ram1969...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Another perfect example why agreements & sanctions with terrorist
> > > > leaders don't work ? This is why I've said we need to elect another
> > > > non liberal leader that can play hardball with Iran and alike
> > > > countries. I'm all for diplomacy, but when that doesn't work after the
> > > > first warning, it is time for Plan B and I can guarantee Iran won't
> > > > like it. Unfortunately, in our lifetime the only way to achieve peace
> > > > is through strength and we've proven that over and over. Liberal's
> > > > don't understand that nor will they ever get it and that is why they
> > > > are a danger to America. They play this game - well Israel has them,
> > > > why not Iran? Israel is responsible and do you want to risk letting
> > > > Iran get NUKES The answer to than is simple common sense- NOT A CHANCE
> > > > - NOT ON YOUR LIFE.
>
> > > > On Aug 4, 4:42 pm, cheshirecatldy <crzycatldy8...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > does anyone else think ahmadinanutjob is up to something??? looks like
> > > > > iran may be threatening to block oil shipments.
>
> > > > > Iran tests 'new weapon' for use at sea
>
> > > > > Aug 4 01:12 PM US/Eastern
> > > > > By NASSER KARIMI
> > > > > Associated Press Writer
>

> > > > > TEHRAN, Iran (AP) - Iran announced Monday that it has tested a new

> > > > > weapon capable of sinking ships nearly 200 miles away, and reiterated
> > > > > threats to close a strategic waterway at the mouth of the Persian Gulf
> > > > > if attacked.

> > > > > Up to 40 percent of the world's oil passes through the Strait of
> > > > > Hormuz, a narrow passage along Iran's southern coast. Tehran has
> > > > > warned it could shut down tanker traffic there if attacked—a move
> > > > > likely to send oil prices skyrocketing.
>
> > > > > The warnings came two days after a deadline expired for Iran to
> > > > > respond to incentives from six world powers, offered in exchange for a
> > > > > promise to curb its uranium enrichment.
>
> > > > > Later Monday, the U.S. State Department said the group—the five
> > > > > permanent members of the U.N. Security Council, plus Germany—agreed to
> > > > > pursue further sanctions against Iran because of its failure to meet
> > > > > the Saturday deadline.
>
> > > > > Iran and the West have been mired in a standoff over the country's
> > > > > disputed nuclear program. The United Nations has already slapped Iran
> > > > > with three rounds of sanctions, over its refusal to stop enriching
> > > > > uranium—a key process that generates either fuel for a nuclear
> > > > > reactor, or the fissile material for a bomb.
>
> > > > > Iran says its nuclear program is for peaceful purposes only, to
> > > > > generate electricity.
>
> > > > > Revolutionary Guards commander Gen. Mohammad Ali Jafari said Monday
> > > > > that the new marine weapon is "unique in the world" and has a range of
> > > > > 300 kilometers (186 miles), according to the state news agency IRNA.
>
> > > > > That's within range of U.S. warships deployed in the Persian Gulf.
> > > > > Last month, Iran tested missiles it claimed were capable of reaching

> > > > > 1,250 miles (2,000 kilometers) away—putting U.S military bases in the
> > > > > Middle East as well as Israel, Turkey, the Arabian peninsula,
> > > > > Afghanistan and Pakistan all within striking distance.
>
> > > > > Monday's report gave no details on when or where the new weapon was
> > > > > tested. Its range indicates it could be a type of torpedo, but state
> > > > > radio called it a missile.
>
> > > > > Jafari warned Iran would respond decisively if any military strike is

> > > > > carried out against it.
>
> > > > > "Enemies know that we are easily able to block the Strait of Hormuz
> > > > > for an unlimited period," he was quoted by state radio as saying. "The
> > > > > strait and vessels are in range of our various weapons."
>
> > > > > Both the U.S. and Israel—which shares American concerns over Iran's
> > > > > nuclear program—have said they would prefer a diplomatic solution to
> > > > > the standoff with Iran, but have not ruled out other options—including
> > > > > a military one.
>
> > > > > Israeli analyst Ephraim Kam, a former senior intelligence officer,
> > > > > dismissed the new weapons test.
>
> > > > > "They are always boasting about their weapons and their military
> > > > > capabilities and saying how unique they are, but they are usually just

> > > > > standard military weapons," he said.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[CyclePro]

>Bring Peace back to America

Oh fish, it's a Post 9/11 World. Peace will only be Restored, when
Political Islam is wiped off the Face of the Planet.

Sure we might have a little rest and I'm sure most liberals will feel
"Secure" in their "Man of the Hour". It will be a "False Peace" along
with a "False Hope" and it will be a "Change" for the Worse.

Are you Naive enough to think that our Enemies are going to just kick
back and think that It would be a nice thing to just hang out and have
some "Fun with the Family"?

And you thoughts on G.W Bush as being seen as a Bully around the
World. Care to Name the Countries that Think this.

This past winter I spent some time in Holland. The Dutch understand
what we did for them in WW2. They have and will stand with us.
France has a split personality as a Nation, those that are
Conservative also Stand with the USA. However, you have a similiar
group of left leaning liberals that would rather appease an enemy in
hopes that they get killed last.

The Germans are a wacky bunch and would rise to power if given the
chance. Thats why the Belgians and the Dutch tend to balance out
those Socialist Germans. If you are a German on the "Dole" you tend
to get shown the Border as quick as posible in Holland.

[CyclePro]

Sure Dennis, I'm sure glad my Grandfathers decided at the age of 17 &
18 to join the Military in order to tell Hitler what they thought
about what Germany "could & couldn't do". I'm also thankful some of
my relatives told Japan what to do as well.

No we aren't the Rulers of the World. However, we do have a LOT to
say about what are the RULES.

Yes, Iran is a Threat. ONE they have Threatened both Israel and US
that Makes them a High Risk Security Threat.

or should we just think Iran is a little dog that is barking?

Dennis, I'll ask you the Question: Do you Think Iran is on the Same
Level of a Nation as WE ARE? Do they Hold the same Ideals of Freedom
and Rights of Individuals as WE DO?

[CyclePro]

RW, that was funny always one to be a Mocker and a Scoffer.

Hey I almost missed making it to town over the 4th of July. I didn't
get a chance to hook up with KyH as my wife kids wanted to visit
Wheelwright, KY before we returned home.

On Aug 5, 9:21 pm, "rwhitl...@elkcreek.net" <rwhitl...@elkcreek.net>
wrote:

[Foxtrot]

Remember Dennis doesn't answer questions. Reason: HE Can't..

Now onto something more important. Hard line Liberals are very
depressed gloom & doomer's who offer no solutions, constantly finger
point without merit, spew grossly false malicious propaganda to the
uneducated that will listen, accuse the innocent people of being LIARS
when most are themselves and they just want everybody to be as
miserable as they are in their Marxist beliefs that they fail to see.
Their ANGER turns into RAGE. They post frequently here that would
love to see us lose the war to satisfy their own hatred. Simply they
are COWARDS and FAILURES with low self esteem, but at least they are
easily recognized. Should we pity or pray for them?

[sadness]

I say America should stop talking and start pounding Iran with bombs
and chemical warfare.

> ...
>
> read more »

[dennis]

Fox, I answered your questions, but you did not like the answers that
I gave. Instead of answering questions, you go on rampages calling
those whose opinions differ from your names such as Marxists,
Commnuists, etc. I've asked you many times what the purpose of the
invasion of Iraq was. But you won't give a direct answer. Was it
WMD? Was it to take out Saddam and install a democratic government?

And Cycle, I do not think that Iran is on the same level as the United
States nor do they hold the same ideals as our country. However, that
does not mean they do not have the same rights as other sovreign
nations.
Unless, as you must, one subscribes to the theory that George Orwell
wrote in Animal Farm...
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

On Aug 6, 12:39 am, Foxtrot <ram1969...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Foxtrot]

Dennis - I don't believe you are a Marxist or Communist (not even
close). By default, as a liberal I believe you concur with some
Socialist concepts, (ie. national health care, distribution of wealth
to some degree, ). I think you are a very serious civic minded person
who has made significant contributions that benefits all citizens of
Lebanon and I applaud you, Bill and others for that. I like your being
fiscally conservative when it comes to spending the local taxpayer's
money and that you won't pass trivial ordnances just for the sake of
making small interest groups happy. However, we are world's apart on
the national level.

When I say that you answer questions with questions a good example is
your asking, "Was it WMD's?" If you believe that just give your
reason(s). If we disagree that is healthy. I believe you to be a man
of integrity and your character won't dignify the hate, finger
pointing, calling someone a LIAR, etc...that I stated above. Further,
there are good and bad liberals. You are not an extremist, looney
liberal and if you have noticed I've always prefaced liberal with
adjectives (to make the distinction) for what I believe to be the left
of left.....

[cheshirecatldy]

you know what fox
if someone wants to disperse his or her wealth I will be glad to take
it!!
it is funnyhow they talk like that is what they want, but doing it on
a personal level, that is another thing, aint it?!!!

[CyclePro]

Now we are getting somewhere Dennis.

Sovereign Rights of Nations:

If all Nations have the SAME Rights - what Might they BE?

If all Nations are NOT Equal to the United States, then what is their
Rank?

How would a Nation maintain World Order when dealing with Rogue
Nations especially ones that Threaten the Stability of a region or
that of the entire World?

When is the Doctrine of Pre-Emptive Action required?

As far as Animal Farm is concerned great book, too bad many students
today are no longer required to read it.

I also prefer Orwell's 1984. Especially the references to
"Doublespeak". This book is also no longer required reading in todays
schools. What a shame.

[dennis]

But according to your premise, since the United States is the greatest
of nations, then we also have the right to rule the world.
But all nations should have the same rights.
But according to you, some countries are more equal than others.

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[CyclePro]

wrong assumption Dennis, Just answer my questions.

Read it again. You have stated that some countries are "Lesser" than
the USA.

So rank the Countries...

And State what you believe to be the "Rights" of a Nation.

If you don't consider the USA to be #1. Then you must let us know
which country is #1 according to your Rankings.

Great thing about these "Written Forums" as they do SERVE as a Good
Record.

Take your time. Rank the Nations...

[CyclePro]

Oh, I forget to Mention that "He who owns the Gold, makes the Rules".

We as a Nation do not ACT as Rulers, nor is it an American Ideal to be
a Ruler. However, we as a Nation have a VESTED interest in assuring
that other Nations and especially Rogue Nations "Follow the Rules".

I'd state that we have the most to gain and the most to lose by
allowing such Rogue Nations to gain additional Power by any means if
it means that we have to give up our way of life.

Our way of Life is Far Superior to all other ways... How else could
you explain the $15Trillion Dollars of Wealth this Nation Produces
Year over Year.

On Aug 6, 6:29 pm, dennis <dgeorg...@alltel.net> wrote:

[dennis]

But we do set the rules.
We said that Iraq/Saddam did not live up to his agreement with the UN
and and kept producing WMD's. We lied to other members of the UN and
coercied them into approving resolutions to invade Iraq. We bribed
countries such as Turkey with economic aid to use their land to attack
Iraq.
We say that Israel can have nuclear weapons and we would approve of
Israel bombing Iran's nuclear sites.
We say that Iran cannot have nuclear weapons and we would not approve
of Iran bombing Israel.

[CyclePro]

Dennis,
Do you think Saddam lived up to his "Agreements"?

Only liberals that "Hate" Bush have foamed at the Mouth about Lies.
I'll offer you the same deal I have given RW. Since I put my life on
the LINE along with my Units lives to capture and inspect many caches
of Chemical Weapons as well as Capturing - What I'll call "Dual Use
Equipment". Would you like to either Drink the Beer or be exposed to
the Biological Agents? Take your Pick? And while you make your
choice, Do you think such "Dual use Equipment" is grounds for Concern,
given the Nature and Character of Saddam?

Your choice? I'm sure you will take the side that such "Dual Use
Equipment" was being used for "Peaceful", Non-Threatening,
Humanitarian, or Scientific Means. Take your pick. Believe me, I've
had to put my ENTIRE Military Career on the Line in dealing with this
Issue. I've chosen the path to Educate EVERYONE about Biological
Threats. I'm very concerned about Radicals producing these "Bugs" and
spreading them into OUR Water Systems or doing something dangerous
like releasing AirBorne Pathogens. The more dangerous bugs won't kill
you quick they'll make you feel like you've got the "Flu" and then
you'll Die and spread it to others.

HOW MUCH money are you WILLING to Invest or Allocate to make sure this
DOES NOT Happen or at least Minimizes the Risks to OUR Nation?

WE as a NATION bent over BACKWARDS in dealing with Saddam. He was a
THREAT?

Again if you disagree that Saddam was NOT a Threat, so be it. Plenty
of Americans will take sides on this issue. And this next Election
will be a Repeat of 2004.

I for one will side with those that considered Saddam a Threat and we
had a "Right" to take him out of the Equation. This not only was a
tough decision for our President as this Opens up a great many
discussions on Pre-emptive Warfare.

And this is why I ask the Question of you about your thoughts on When
& Why a Nation could use the Doctrine of Pre-emptive Action. However,
as Fox has indicated to me about your Character, you tend to Avoid
answering questions as to solidify a foundation of Debate or at least
pin you down to a valid position. I've seen this before with types
that tend to be well meaning, but don't think "Critically" &
Thoughfully. I'm not saying this is you, but it does have the same
characteristics.

Oh and on the Economic Aid to Turkey for exchange to use their Land to
Attack Iraq. YOU are Clueless. We already give millions of dollars
to a great many countries and in regards to Turkey, They "Thumbed
There Middle Finger" to US. I was ready to be staged in Turkey before
the Original Assault. Instead my unit had to base in Qatar and
Kuwait. Turkey DID NOT allow ANY Troops to Stage NOR did they ALLOW
us any AirSpace. This cost my mission valuable time as we had to
start out 300 miles in the south. During that time, a GREAT many
Tactical mission issues happened to the Advantage of Saddam. We did
capture and took out our Primary Object of Capturing these Mobile Bio
Labs, however, with such critical Time in fighting our way to THEM, it
is my oppinion that any trully deadly agents and or "Precursors" are
NOW in the hands of Syrian Radicals or Syrian Baathists.

GET YOUR FACTS straight on this. I'll be glad to help you out as a
First Hand Account Participant.

[Foxtrot]

Dennis - Prove beyond any doubt he lied in a court of law. Go ahead
prove it, prove it, and prove it again and again. Gather all that
innuendo, hear say, biased piece meal information, liberal facts then
bring all of it to Congress and let's have a trial before the November
elections. How about getting Yarmuth, your buddy bring actions
against the President and Vice President to earn just one month's
paycheck out of 12. Hey, I met him in D.C. but refused to shake his
hand because the man can't make eye contact with even this
constituent. Tell me, what does he have to hide? I'm going to extend
my hand to anyone who can't look me directly in the face.

Go ahead, as a citizen demand Yarmuth get Pelosi bring everything the
liberal's have and let's let them present their so called evidence,
and for once put their money where their big mouths are. Come on, I
dare you, as a citizen demand charges be filed against both? DO IT NOW
and why not go to Washington and march around Capitol Hill demanding
JUSTICE and TRUTH...Do whatever. Let's begin impeachment proceedings
against them TOMORROW, but if they lose let's demand all the "do
nothing screaming liberal's" RESIGN. Let's make them sign an oath they
will. If they are so right, what do they have to lose? Tell me, and
don't give me mealy mouth excuses. Again - put up and get it done or
shut up.

[dennis]

Well, he allowed Colin Powell to be embarrassed in front of the world.
Is that not bad enough?
Who says I like Yarmuth.

[Foxtrot]

Proof....Dennis... proof..... Yarmuth, you're a Democrat aren't you?

[dennis]

Oh, so under your thinking, all Democrats support Democrats?
Geeze....

[CyclePro]

I'm with you on this Fox,

One of the Saddam's Bio Labs (aka "Dual Use Equipment Trailers") is in
Camp Butner, NC. I'd LOVE to offer up samples of what I passionately
call "Saddam Reserve Ale" for any Liberal or Member of Congress -
(ESPECIALLY Jack Murtha) as well as demonstrating the full force of a
range of "Bugs" this system CAN produce. Somehow though the PETA
folks wouldn't like me killing Goats or Sheep to make my points.

[lebanonfan]

Speaking of "dual use equipment"... I guess that could be about
anything. I was surprised a while back to hear a number of "meth labs"
had been found in New Hope on the roadside. I had no idea what a meth
lab might look like, but here's a picture:

http://www.lcni5.com/cgi-bin/storyviewarchive.cgi?091+2008414.News.2008411-4836-091-091007.archive+News
---

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[CyclePro]

Gen. Colin Powell was NOT Embarrasssed, He just realized that he was
Fighting an Ideological battle that wasn't going to "Accept" any
evidence at ALL. When you fight an Ideological war, you have to use
some very different approaches. Gen. Powell was clearly tired of the
Political Games after 40 Years of Service.

Gen. Colin Powell has ALWAYS served this country better behind "Closed
Doors". Dennis, you don't think Gen. Powell was Lying do YOU? He has
Served this Nation with Valor, Honor, & Courage. It is NOT in his
Nature to Lie. He often takes the side of the "Doves". He understood
the RISKS and He certainly UNDERSTOOD the Consequences of NOT Acting
with a Pre-Emptive Agenda considering the situations we were in
Post-9/11 as well as Pre-9/11.

Anyway, Have you made your "Choice yet"? Beer or Bugs?

Are you willing to take a stance on "Dual Use Equipment" and the
Threats of such equipment?

Also, I noticed you do seem to have a "Beef against Israel"? Is this
why you think it is OK for Iran to be a Threat but refusing to
Acknowledge that they ARE a Threat? Your logic for building this
foundation is FAULTY in this regards.

So, back to the Ranking of Nations - Is Israel Ranked higher or lower
to Iran in your List?

In Warfare we call this "The Enemy of 'my' enemy is MY 'Friend'". How
Say yee?? Beer or Bugs...

And one last question: What is your Thoughts on having modifed SAM
Rockets and Mortar shells with Aerosol delivery devices? Would this
constitute a Biological/Chemical Delivery Device or would it be for
"Spraying Crops"?

[CyclePro]

Now your onto it LF, yes "Dual Use Equipment" can be just about
ANYthing, however, when you put certain types of Equipment together,
you then look at the Informational Risks to determine if the Equipment
is indeed being used for the Bad vs the Good.

Meth Labs are highly Toxic. Law Enforcement uses distributor and
supplier information to determine if people are buying the pre-cursors
in quantity to indicate if the presence of a Lab is being formed. The
active ingredient for Meth is found in Over-the-Counter Drugs such as
Benadryl and Sudophed (ephedrine). Extracting the ephedrine requires
a fair amount of Ether and other chemicals and when these are combined
and handled improperly you either get an explosion or one big toxic
mess.

Much like the Boot-Leggers I've known in West Virginia & Kentucky.
Most have gotten caught due to purchasing large quantities of "Sugar"
& "Yeast". It becomes pretty obvious these folks were not running a
Candy shop or Bakery.

My mother is a retired social worker and she use to discover people
having a lot of "Mason" jars around their house (Wheelwright, Ky), but
then would ask the women questions about what types of things they
Liked to "Can" or if they even understood the process of "Canning".
When the women couldn't comprehend the issue, she'd open up a case
file.

On Aug 7, 11:35 am, lebanonfan <lebanon...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Speaking of "dual use equipment"... I guess that could be about
> anything. I was surprised a while back to hear a number of "meth labs"
> had been found in New Hope on the roadside. I had no idea what a meth
> lab might look like, but here's a picture:
>

> http://www.lcni5.com/cgi-bin/storyviewarchive.cgi?091+2008414.News.20...

[dennis]

All nations should be equal. This isn't a sport in which countries
are ranked.
Do I have a beef against Israel?
Yes. Land was taken from the Palestinians and given to the Zionists
who wanted a country. It's not like the Jewish people lived there.
Many of them migrated there once the land was being taken away from
the Palestinians. Since that time, the United States has given Israel
carte blanche to do whatever they desire. Why hasn't the United States
forced Israel to comply with UN resolutions?

[CyclePro]

I agree it is not a sport in whcih countries are ranked. It is FACT
and one that demands attention or could lead to destructive ends.
Wouldn't you Agree?

And how about the Land the Israelis "Purchased" from Wealthy Arabs.
NO Land was Taken. It was a legal transaction that took place AND was
Ratified by the U.N. and the World Court.

Prior to the Founding of Israel, Hitler even supported the Formation
of Israel, as he thought it would be easier to Kill them ALL off in 1
Swoop. So did the Arabs that accepted the migration of European Jews
that sold them ever increasing valued property from 1935-1945. You
may wish to review what the "Grand Mufti" of the time had to say.

One thing Dennis you seem to overlook is that the Land in Question was
"Owned by Jordanians". And prior to that, the Ottoman Empire. Care
to look up the Facts. The Jordanians were well compensated for this
land. According to modern Real Estate Law, Title is Transfered from
Owner to Owner. Renters in such instances have NO SAY.

The Renting Palestinians that are still complaining have to "Point"
the finger to the Egyptians, Syrians, & Saudis.

It is a well documented FACT that the Egyptians told the Palestinians
to leave quickly in 1948 as 'they" were going to ATTACK and promised
these people that they'd get the Spoils from the Jews. Are you Aware
of these FACTs?

WELL guess what Happened? Those Arabs got their collective BUTTS
KICKED. They've continually gotten there BUTTS kicked EVERY Time
(1948, 1967, 1956, 1973,...). My favorite was the 6 day war. It's no
wonder the Radicals switched tactics and use Proxies and fight a
battle like COWARDS. Can you Name any other Nation that Fought with
the Isrealis during these conflicts? The ANSWER is NONE. The
Israelis Defended THEMSELVES against an Aggressive Multi-National
Force that Far OUTNUMBERED THEM.

Dennis, the Israelis NOT only paid for their land with cash, they also
paid for it with BLOOD. The land is theirs...

Since you like to use the word "Should" maybe "Egypt" should take
these people and compensate them for their so called "Lost" land. 1)
it was Never theres to begin with and 2) History has shown that even
if these people are given land, they still won't make Peace with
Jewish people. They have repeatably failed to keep their end of any
deals.

Which UN Resolutions are you complaining about that Israel is not
adhering to?

What is your Stance on Hamas & Hezbollah? Do you consider them
Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?

What is your Choice on the Dual Use Equipment - Beer or Bugs?

Ok since Nations "should" be equal? Are you now agreeing that they
ARE Not? If they are not then they Must be relatively Ranked against
some Objective Criteria.

Any reasonable person "should" be able to identify some criteria in
which to Rank against. In this Regards, then you still haven't
indicated if Iran is Higher or Lower to Israel or even the USA?

Here is a good Objective Criteria - How many people are attempting to
Migrate from and to any Nation?

I'd have to state that it is pretty obvious more people would rather
live in the USA than in Iran. Wouldn't you agree? Therefore for this
Criteria America is #1 and Iran probably is at the Bottom.

Now then, take that a few steps further, would more people wish to
live in Israel than Iran? Why?

Then the concluding theory is WHAT Nation is the Ideal that EVERY
Nation 'should' strive to model?

Regardless, Israel is a "Legal" Nation and as such - It has a "Right"
to Defend itself. Wouldn't you agree?

[dennis]

Ok. We can agree to disagree.
Courses I've taken and books I've read disagree with your assessment
of the creation of Israel. The UN partitioned off land and assigned
parts of it to Israel and parts of it to the Palestinians.

So Israel can defend itself but Iran can't.

Would you care to research how many UN resolutions Israel has ignored?

[rwhi...@elkcreek.net]

I would have to agree with Dennis. All the classes that I have taken
say that it started out with Jews buying large tracts of land from
Arabs but in the end they forced thousands of Arabs off their
lands...Now I fully expect you now to come back with some sort of neo-
con bullshit to the effect that we were brain washed by the liberal
intellectual elite....To that I say get the hell on back to Kansas!

> ...
>
> read more »

[CyclePro]

Dennis, YOU made the claim that the Israelis are VIOLATING UN
Resolutiolns.

Sorry DUDE, you made the statement and I challenged you on it. It's
up to YOU to provide the DETAILS. If YOU don't have the resolutions
then you are IN ERROR.

And care to name the Books and research you have on the Creation of
Israel. I'll be glad to give you the UN Declarations as well as
references to the Titles and Deeds.

On Aug 7, 6:46 pm, dennis <dgeorg...@alltel.net> wrote:

[sadness]

Did i just see someone make anti Semitic remarks against Jews.

You liberals are bunch of sickos. You have an old fascist cunt
Nancy,as speaker of the house who runs like a coward when things don't
go her way.. You Liberals will pay dearly for your arrogance this
November.



On Aug 7, 10:28 pm, "rwhitl...@elkcreek.net" <rwhitl...@elkcreek.net>
wrote:

> ...
>
> read more »

[Taylorcofan]

Dennis, Israel would push the Palestinians into the sea if the world
wasn't watching. Israel has ignored the U.N. and the U.S. many times.
It's clear that Israel will not comply with any ruling by the World
Court.

Here is an article titled, "Israel Ignores U.S. Protests Over Torture,
Detention Of Young American Citizen in Israeli Prison" By Eugene Bird
It clearly shows that while we are a friend to Israel they do not
respond so readily to us.

It is not the first time an American citizen has been tortured by
Israeli interrogators, but the case of 18-year-old Hashem Mufleh is
particularly outrageous. Israeli security police pulled him out of
line at Ben-Gurion Airport as he was about to board a departing
aircraft, arrested him, and refused to let his mother talk to him.
Israel has ignored State Department protests, made after Mufleh’s case
was taken up by a number of Americans including a journalist, Malcolm
Brenner, from The Independent, a newspaper in Mufleh’s home town of
Gallup, New Mexico.

Hashem Mufleh was returning to the United States after completing high
school in Ramallah on the West Bank. He has been held without charge
since his Aug. 18 arrest. Relatives say he has suffered the usual
methods of interrogation under torture, including “the chair,” in
which he has been bound in uncomfortable positions for days at a time,
sleep deprivation, and continuous extremely loud music.

The interrogators told him the torture would continue until he signed
a confession in Hebrew. When he would not do so, the interrogators
demanded that Mufleh agree to leave and never return to the area.

He again refused, saying that he had done nothing wrong and did not
want to be banned from visiting his friends and relatives in
Palestine. His interrogators then demanded that he agree to stay away
from the area for two years. When he again refused he was ordered by a
court to remain in custody, without charge, for another 30 days.

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1098/9810022.html

[CyclePro]

Same to YOU RW.

Name the Articles, Books, Authors and Reference Material about Jews
forcing the Arabs off their "Land" to support your position.

NO Arabs were forced off the Land by the Jews. This is absolutely
false. Would you and Dennis like the Reference Material were the
Egyptians and the Grand Mufti "told the Palastinans to Leave and
they'd get the "Spoils"? Are you prepared to give equal weight and
significance to this or are you going to hold to your default
position?

If this Evidence is indeed True then what does this do for the Claims
that Israel is a Legal Nation?

The History Channel has had SEVERAL documentaries of ACTUAL speeches
given by the Grand Mufti on this issue. Quite Amazing Hate Speech if
you'd ask me. RW, & Dennis, are you Accepting my premise that the UN
& the World Court Validated the Claims for the "Rights" of Israel to
Exist? Yes or NO??

Are you accepting the FACTS that Egypt, Syria, & the Saudis Attacked
Israel and LOST multiple times since 1948?

So RW, as far as the land that was Legally "Purchased" should their be
any disputes about the Ownership Rights? If you are a Renter, do you
have any "Claims to the Ownership of the Property" that you RENT?

One thing you have done RW, is Validate my claim that The Israelis did
LEGALLY buy the Land. We are half-way there to clearing up this "Beef
of Dennis's". Do you AGREE on this point of Land Transfer by Legal
Ownership Title Transfer?

Next, are you and Dennis prepared to make a "Dual Use Equipment"
choice of "Beer or Bugs"?

How Say yee?

Dennis, I'm not claiming that Iran has any Less of a Right to Defend
itself. Iran has shown that since 1979 that it is a Radical Nation
and it is growing in its use of hostilities towards others. As a
student of history, I'd surely love to ask Jimmy Carter what he thinks
about his failings of backing the Shaw of Iran. Has anyone else ever
wondered if Jimmy Carter had a backbone that we'd not be in the Messes
we are NOW in dealing with Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and other Radical
Middle Eastern Countries. RW, & Dennis, get a clue Israel is not a
problem, Radical Islam is the issue...

Dennis, I asked you to RANK the Nations. Is Israel above or below
Iran? and Why? Is the USA Above or Below Iran? GET it? It's an
exercise in Critical Thinking...

If the Propability of Dual Use Equipment can be used for the
Manufacture of WMD's (ie Biological Weapons) is HIGH, then you'd have
to accept the premise that "Bush Lied" is FALSE. Such equipment was a
Threat, IT is a CURRENT THREAT, and will REMAIN a THREAT.

The question of INTENT will be the deciding FACTOR. Since Dennis or
RW, you'll NEVER make the Choice of accepting the Bugs but would most
surely will drink the Beer - I'll ask you to think about INTENT. Not
only your own ideological INTENT, but also, the INTENT of others that
are Politically Opposed to the Capitalists and that of Freedoms we
Americans have PAID dearly to obtain.

BEER OR BUGS - you two make the CHOICE...

I ask EVERYONE that READs this thread to CAST their vote. Based on
the Evidence - What is the Verdict?

Accept that these Mobile Labs were used for the Manufacture of
Dangerous Biological Agents or make the Choice that these labs were
ANYTHING but a weapons production facility. If you are undecided,
then LOOK at Saddams INTENT and how he has ACTED as a Ruler. Make
your choice.

Can we as a Nation afford to be attacked Biologically? Are we
Prepared for Biological ATTACKS? Are we READY for Biological
ATTACKS? Do we do NOTHING or Something? Speak up please...

We've got a 30 year show down with Iran just a Brewing...

On Aug 7, 9:28 pm, "rwhitl...@elkcreek.net" <rwhitl...@elkcreek.net>
wrote:

[sadness]

Jinny Carter was an asshole as president, Today Jimmy Carter is a
terrorist ass kisser.

> ...
>
> read more »

[CyclePro]

TCF, thanks for joining in on this. I call BS on your comment of
Israel wanting to PUSH the Palestinians into the Sea. I'm sure you
haven't heard the President of Iran state this though. Or have you
even taken the time to Investigate the Charters of the Terrorist
Organizations that are Israel's Enemies. Have you now or haven't
you? Would you like the web links?

Who was the first to break the Peace Treaties made with Israel? What
is your Oppinion as to why Anwar Sadat was Killed?

And what are your oppinions on Hamas and Hezbollah?

How many times has Isreal Advanced on its Neighbors? Has Isreal
attempted to MOVE its borders via Force?

Are you against the brutality of Hezbollah in the way that they tend
to "Behead" their captives? Are you for or against Hezbollah when
they brutally murdered 1000's of Christians in Beirut? Now that
Hezbollah is a primary member of Lebanon's Government, does Israel
have a Right to Attack Lebanon, if Hezbollah uses their Political
Power in furthering the conflicts?

Are you against Hamas for their abilities to launch rockets from
Civilian houses and streets in Gaza into Israeli villages and then run
and hide when the Israelis return fire?

How about the Egyptians using proxies in Gaza to be a thorn in Israels
side? Should they be tolerated?

What are you thoughts about the Captivity and Hanging of United States
Marine Corps, Lt. Col .William R. Higgins by Radical Muslims?

Here is a test question: Which Nations in the Middle East are
Democracies with Freedom of Religion, Freedom of Speech, Freedom of
Press, & Equal Protection Under the Law?

If you wish to read some REAL first hand accounts, Try reading
Brigitte Gabriels book "Because They Hate: A survivor or Islamic
Terror or Nonie Darwish's book: Now They Call Me Infidel

Brigitte is a Lebanese born individual who survived the Lebanese Wars
over a 15 year period and Nonie is an Egyptian who was the daughter of
an Career Egyptian Army Officer charged with creating the small unit
"Cells" that Plague Isreal to this day. Trully eye opener books
especially for Liberal Women.

Ya interogations are sometimes bad for an individual, however as Fox
and Frug have indicated, if you have NOTHING to hide why worry.

I had the misfortune of sharing the same name as this dude that killed
some abortion doctor with a hunting rifle from a distance. The only
difference is my last name is Copp and his was Kopp. However his
Alias was Copp. I was in Ottawa, Canada on business when my
girlfriend at the time gave me a call seriously upset. Turns out
she'd been watching the news that day and Osama Bin Laden was put on
the FBI's Most Wanted List. They also Mentioned James Copp for
Killing this doctor was number 10. Well, let me tell you getting back
into the USA wasn't Easy. So yes, interrogations can be a little
rough. You now what though, I understood why these things have to
happen and I didn't sweet it. After a day, I proved my innocence.
However, convincing my girlfriend was another story she was so freaked
out for a good while.

And while you are doing your research maybe you can be a little
Slicker in NOT using Propaganda from "Partners for Peace" which is an
Obvious Anti-Israeli Group. The Author and his Brother are the Co-
founders. these jockers are just like the "Flying IMAMS". But I'd
guess you'd take the stance that those nutcases were just Praying. Do
you know how many times Hard Left Liberals tend to manufacture
Conflict and then raise the issue to the high heavens? As in the
Black Marxist Professors who have been caught putting Hangmans ropes
on their doors and then "Crying Racism" is the biggest problems in
America.

NICE Try TCF, but it does show your craftiness.

[dennis]

Cycle
Seems you have it in for some Middle Eastern countries other than
Israel.
And I guess if I provided sources of information, you'd call them
Commie, liberal, wackos, etc.

[dennis]

But an FYI

248 24 Mar 1968 Deplores the loss of life and heavy damage to
property. Condemns the military action launched by Israel in flagrant
violation of the U.N. Charter and the cease-fire resolution. Calls
upon Israel to desist from acts or activities in contravention of
resolution 237 (1967). (This was an attack against Karameh, Jordan.)

252 21 May 1968 Deplores the failure of Israel to comply with General
Assembly resolutions 2253 (ES-V) and 2254 (ES-V) of 4 and 14 July
1967. Considers that all legislative and administrative measures taken
by Israel, including the expropriation of land and properties thereon,
which tend to change the legal status of Jerusalem, are invalid and
cannot change the status. Urgently calls upon Israel to rescind all
such measures taken and to desist from further actions changing the
status of Jerusalem

267 3 Jul 1969 Reaffirms the established principle that the
acquisition of territory by military conquest is inadmissible.
Deplores the failure of Israel to show any regard for the resolutions
of the General Assembly and the Security Council. Censures in the
strongest terms all measures taken to change the status of the city of
Jerusalem. Urgently calls once more on Israel to rescind all measures
taken by it to change the status of Jerusalem and in the future to
refrain from all actions likely to have such an effect

271 15 Sep 1969 Grieved at the extensive damage caused by arson to the
Holy Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem on 21 August 1969 under the military
occupation of Israel; calls upon Israel to scrupulously observe the
provisions of the Geneva Conventions and international law governing
military occupation.

298 25 Sep 1971 Deplores the failure of Israel to respect previous
U.N. resolutions concerning measures and actions by Israel purporting
to affect the status of the city of Jerusalem. Confirms that all
legislative and administrative actions taken by Israel … are totally
invalid and cannot change that status. Urgently calls upon Israel to
rescind all such measures….

On March 22, 1979, the Security Council adopted Resolution No. 446.
Israel’s violation of Resolution 446 (sections quoted below)
represents the most flagrant violation of Israel, not only of the UN
but also the stated policy of our government under successive
administrations:

(The Council) Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in
establishing settlements in the Palestinian and Arab territories
occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious
obstruction to achieving a comprehensive and lasting peace in the
Middle East; Calls once more upon Israel, as the occupying power, to
abide scrupulously by the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, to rescind
it’s previous measures and to desist from taking any action which
would result in changing the legal status and geographical nature and
materially affecting the demographic composition of the Arab
territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, and in
particular, not to transfer parts of its own civilian population into
the occupied Arab

Resolution 469: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe
the council's order not to deport Palestinians

Resolution 497: "...'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's
Golan Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescind its
decision forthwith

But work calls and I must go.

[sadness]

that only further proves that the UN hold bias against Israel. u
also forgot
Issues relating to the state of Israel, the Palestinian people and
other aspects of the Arab-Israeli conflict occupy a large amount of
debate time, resolutions and resources at the United Nations.

The adoption of UNSCOP's recommendation to partition Palestine by the
United Nations General Assembly in 1947 [50] was one of the earliest
decisions of the UN. Since then, it maintained a central role in this
region, especially by providing support for Palestinian refugees via
the UNRWA and by providing a platform for Palestinian political
revendications via the CEIRPP, the UNDPR, the SCIIP, the UNISPAL and
the International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People. The
UN has sponsored several peace negotiations between the parties, the
latest being the 2002 Road map for peace.

In recent years, the Middle East was the subject of 76% of country-
specific UNGA resolutions, 100% of the Human Rights Council
resolutions, 100% of the Commission on the Status of Women
resolutions, 50% of reports from the World Food Program, 6% of
Security Council resolutions and 6 of the 10 Emergency sessions. Of
note is Resolution 3379 (1975) stating that "zionism is racism"; it
was rescinded in 1991. These decisions, passed with the support of the
OIC countries, invariably criticize Israel for her treatment of
Palestinians. Many have qualified this degree of criticism as
excessive. In particular, the UNHRC was widely criticized in 2007 for
failing to condemn other human rights abusers besides Israel.

The United States has been criticized as well as supported for vetoing
most UNSC decisions critical of Israel on the basis of their biased
language, the so-called Negroponte doctrine.

Since 1961, Israel has been barred from the Asia regional group. In
2000, she was accepted within the WEOG group. The UNRWA has been
accused of perpetuating the plight of Palestinian refugees. Although
the UN condemns antisemitism, it has be accused of tolerating
antisemitic remarks within its walls. Some argue that disproportional
criticism of Israel constitutes a new form of antisemitism. UN
personnel have been accused of participating directly in the armed
conflict on several occasions.

[Jazzy-J]

...i can feeling it coming in the air tonight, hold on...

- JazzyJ

[sadness]

How's my buddy Jazzy doing.

Are u letting off a cyber fart LOL,

[Jazzy-J]

Oh I'm dandy JW, how about you?

- JazzyJ

[sadness]

I;m doing okay. I'm just running into a few minor porblems with
several high school friends.

I hope the world is treating u much better my friend.

[Jazzy-J]

Eh well if they cause you too many problems they're not really your
friends...take care of you and move on.

- JazzyJ

[rwhi...@elkcreek.net]

DANGER! WILL ROBINSON!!!...DANGER!!!

[Foxtrot]

dennis - for some strange reason most of us have it in for countries
that encourge their people to strap bombs around themselves then
detonate them killing innocent people.

On Aug 8, 5:41 am, dennis <dgeorg...@alltel.net> wrote:

[CyclePro]

Not at all Dennis,
I prefer to have a solid debate on this.

Thanks for the Resolutions: Are you now going to Provide Some Context
as to the Dates. Or would you like me to give the Context.

Are you prepared to state that there has been a great many hostilities
from Israels enemies and that the UN isn't exactly on Isreals side in
the last 30 years which makes it a biased organization?

By the way are you going to Choose Beer or Bugs?

Have Israels enemies fought with a Uniform of their Nation of
Origin?

Do Israel's Enemies follow the "Rules of Engagement"?

Again, I've asked you to Rank these Nations. Are you having a hard
time at this or what?

[sadness]

If your Louisville native or grew up watching Louisville News then
you should check this sit if you want to see some older stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ0VJr0aT-w&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/user/indylre
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mQAXxYmrMQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk5lc0L7Ojs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGfWiNuBXYM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9--jE9BVBE&feature=PlayList&p=D9C48327B3293756&index=17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1Y0Q3HnUDc&feature=PlayList&p=F7694D2999258666&index=24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biXGJk_ZQ7o&feature=PlayList&p=F7694D2999258666&index=1

[Jazzy-J]

Yet we go over there to "free" their people and spend billions of our money
doing so....

- JazzyJ

[lebanonfan]

Cyclepro, can you give us a better description of these "dual use"
labs you found? What exactly did they consist of? Got any pictures?

[sadness]

some arabs use bulldozers to kill isreali civilians.

crude,but effective..

[dennis]

Some Israelis use fighter jets cluster bombs to fill Arabs.

> > - JazzyJ- Hide quoted text -

[CyclePro]

And this is a video of what gets taught to Children in the West Bank.
Makes you wonder what types of people these children are going to grow
up as:

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1533.htm

Jihadi childrens shows are also quite popular:

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1510.htm

Graduation ceremonies people should be proud that these children are
getting such a Grand Education:

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1468.htm

Makes you wonder what TCF was thinking about when she openly used
propaganda as if a High School Student was innocent by attending such
a school. REALLY makes you Wonder doesn't it. I guess she must have
thought the West Bank is like Malibu California and all these children
and teen agers are just innocent victims of Israeli Aggression.

One thing though when we've had to engage such people, they sure don't
like wearing those Hoods with the Headbands so that you can Identify
them for who they are. Sure makes it easy for Plausible Deniability
when these individuals have been taught from birth to fight by a
cowards way of engagement.

Out of the "Mouths of Babes":
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1398.htm
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1304.htm
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/18.htm
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1184.htm

Teachings of Morality:
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1729.htm
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1625.htm
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1184.htm

There are more, Hey Dennis, RW, & TCF - can you see if the Jews have
been teaching their children in the same Manner. If not let me know.

Sure makes it difficult to maintain any type of "Order" or Peace when
these types of things are happening. Also, since members of Hamas,
Hezbollah and others are not National Actors, but Proxies. I wonder
why the UN doesn't have the same Resolutions against them as well.
Pretty Strange isn't it. Also makes you wonder since these
palastinians are acting in smaller groups with NO Authority accept a
Wall of Deception type authority it really must make one think about
Who & Whom is causing the Problems. It certainly isn't the Jews.
Even the Arabs that are Citizens in Israel can attest to this.

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[dennis]

Cycle
It should be obvious that I do not rank countries. Because some
countries are more affluent than others doesn't necessarily mean that
they should be ranked higher than others.
What are those famous words?
"Four score and seven years ago, our fathers brought forth on this
continent a new nation: conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the
proposition that all men are created equal. "
Obviously, you consider inhabitants of some countries more equal to
others.
You say that I am anit-Israel. I'd have to throw the ball back into
your court and say that you are very anti to those who oppose Israel.
Can you blame some of those in the Middle East who foster hatred
towards this country? What have we done to help some of those
countries that we have not done because of our self-interests?

Do you agree or disagre with the following?

History of Israel and Palestine:
1947 UN Partition Proposal

Population of Palestine 1947 TOTAL 1,845,000

67% non-Jewish
( 1,237,000 )

33% Jewish
( 608,000 )


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



UN Partition Recommendation
November 29, 1947


Proposed
Jewish State Percentage of the land of Palestine
that was proposed for each State


Proposed Jewish State on 56.47% of the land (excluding Jerusalem)



Proposed
Arab State


Proposed Arab Palestinian State on 43.53% of the land
(excluding Jerusalem)



Population for the International trusteeship regime in
Jerusalem




105,000 Arabs 100,000 Jews


It is the Zionists that pushed for the radical idea that the land be
divided up so that a "pure" racially established state of Jews could
be established. They didn't want to live as equal citizens as is
expected of all religions in America. But the division was only
considered temporary by them since their goal was and is to take over
all of Palestine.

The key Zionists had no intention of accepting that UN partition, a
recommendation to chop up Palestine into 7 parts. 67% of the
population didn't what that done. In 1938 Ben-Gurion said to other
Zionists, “after we become a strong force, as the result of the
creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand to the
whole of Palestine.” Sure enough, after the creation of the state in
1948, Menachem Begin made clear how serious the “Jews accepting the UN
partition” was in reality, “The partition of the Homeland is illegal .
It will never be recognized.The signature of institutions and
individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind
the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital.
Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of
Israel, All of it. And forever“.

[sadness]

Dennis why are u sympathizing with the Arabs cause to eradicate
Israel ans the united states.

can everybody leave the Jews in peace for once.

Hitler tried to kill off the Jews,but he failed thank god ,thanks
to the heroics of the united states and USSR.

> ...
>
> read more »

[dennis]

I did not say I am sympathizing with the Arabs cause to eradicate
Israel. However, I do believe other Middle Eastern countries should
have the same rights as Israel. I do believe that the Palestinians
should be allowed to return to their homeland just as the UN allowed
the Zionists to do.
You made a good point there. Hitler tried to kill off the Jews and
the movement to give Palestine back to the Zionists gained ground.
They would not accept a part of Africa. They wanted Palestinian land.

> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----

[rwhi...@elkcreek.net]

How 'bout: HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS....

[sadness]

no need to yell rwhitlock.

Use of caps in fourms is considered disrespectful because it's like
yelling.

On the nation Sims that i played.people got banned for Use of caps.

you get booed on youtube for making a comment in caps.

On Aug 9, 10:26 am, "rwhitl...@elkcreek.net" <rwhitl...@elkcreek.net>
wrote:

[rwhi...@elkcreek.net]

I'm sorry! DID I HURT YOUR EARS?

[rwhi...@elkcreek.net]

Dennis: I don't know if you read any history of the Zionist movement
in the years immediately before WWI but it demonstrates a fascinating
confluence between politics, coincidence, and just plain good luck in
the birth of the nation of Israel. It all starts with a man by the
name of...Lloyd George - any connection? - who as a young journalist
started an association with a Jewish Chemistry professor and began the
publication of Zionism in - of all places - Wales. Together they
would start a campaign to gain the sympathy of the British Public
which led to the Balfour Declaration - This was the first official
recognition of Zionism by a nation state...Now the term "nation state"
comes into the equation because before WW1 and the administration of
the British Empire throughout the Middle East there was no such
thing! The Middle East - as was true of most of the world - was
nothing more than a collection of monarchies, fiefdoms, and other
assorted relics left over from the Ottoman Empire. In asserting
control over these territories Britain pretty much changed the entire
paradigm for world politics. Which demonstrates that he who frames the
argument usually is victorious....Up until the next paradigm
shift...which is happening right.....NOW! I find it fascinating that
this all started in Manchester England - which is nowhere close to
Palestine or the Middle East. Which is probably the source of the
majority of the conflicts throughout the Middle and Near East right
now... By that I mean that often times borders were drawn up based
upon arbitrary caprice of British administrators which were more
probably influenced by graft and corruption than by any semblance of
administrative excellence. In my opinion, this is probably the root
cause to many of the conflicts that we are witnessing between
India,Pakistan,Afghanistan,Palestine,Lebanon etc...all former British
colonies who - like the other remnants of the Ottoman Empire - were
thrown together as nation states with little or no forethought or
input from the local populations. If you look hard enough you will
see the effects of the lack of planning in all modern conflicts - From
Ireland to Yugoslavia....So in the end the trite but true axiom comes
to bear: If you want peace, seek justice...It ain't gonna come any
other way.

> ...
>
> read more »

[dennis]

RW
I took a Middle Eastern history class (an as elective) my senior year
at UK.
I recall the things you mentioned.

On Aug 9, 12:01 pm, "rwhitl...@elkcreek.net" <rwhitl...@elkcreek.net>
wrote:

[CyclePro]

Dennis what a way to shunt your Critical thinking.

However, now you offered up just another main way one could rank a
country. Affluence.

Are you now claiming that Israel and the USA more Affluent than Iran
or Less Affluent? If countries are Less Affuent due to hatred, would
that be a problem for you to rank them lower or just a way that you'd
ignore the results of a list in view that the USA is #1 and Iran is
somewhere near the Bottom of the List?

How much do you value Affuency?

My wife has this theory about "Shoulda Woulda Coulda" thinkers... but
I'll leave that for another topic.

How about the Beer vs Bugs? Have you made your Choice???

On Aug 8, 3:32 pm, dennis <dgeorg...@alltel.net> wrote:
> Cycle
> It should be obvious that I do not rank countries.  Because some
> countries are more affluent than others doesn't necessarily mean that
> they should be ranked higher than  others.
> What are those famous words?
> "Four score and seven years ago, our fathers brought forth on this
> continent a new nation: conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the
> proposition that all men are created equal. "
> Obviously, you consider inhabitants of some countries  more equal to
> others.
> You say that I am anit-Israel.  I'd have to throw the ball back into
> your court and say that you are very anti to those who oppose Israel.
> Can you blame some of those in the Middle East who foster hatred
> towards this country?  What have we done to help some of those
> countries that we have not done because of our self-interests?
>
> Do you agree or disagre with the following?
>
> History of Israel and Palestine:
> 1947 UN Partition Proposal
>
>  Population of Palestine 1947 TOTAL 1,845,000
>
>  67% non-Jewish
> ( 1,237,000 )
>
>  33% Jewish
> ( 608,000 )
>

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----