Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: Physicists provide support for retrocausal quantum theory People Serge Patlavskiy Today at 2:22 PM To Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com BCC Yahoogroups Message body - Stanley Klein on July 6, 2017 wrote: >sending influences backwards in time is very, very different  >from sending signals. Sending influences can not be used for  >making decisions (like betting on the outcome of a roulette  >wheel) whereas sending signal could be so used. . [S.P.] Let us not play with words! Unlike physical signal, there is no such a material entity as "influence" -- so, the two cannot be compared in principle. We use the term "influence" to stand for interaction of two material systems which results in changing the state of both. (Here, by "material system" I mean as stones, so such physical signals as e-m radiation, air vibration, and the like.) For example, I take a stone and throw it into some material object -- in such a way I produce an influence upon that material object. So, the phrase "sending influences" is senseless because what can be "sent" are exclusively physical signals and other material objects.   . To the point, there is no such a material entity as "time". If anything exists, it must exist necessarily simultaneously with other existent events, processes, and things despite of the distance between them, otherwise the integrity of Reality as a whole complex system will be disturbed and destroyed. So, the very discussion of the problem of retro-causality is senseless and futile, ... unless we assume the existence of parallel realities, of course. . By the way, as follows from my approach, the idea of "parallel realities" may have sense only if the initial whole{Reality} is dissociated into other wholes with formation of the chain of wholes. So, the "realities" which, as whole complex systems, constitute the chain, are not some distinct or independent realities, but are "rooted" in the initial Reality. Then, instead of talking about "traveling back and forth in time" we will have to talk about "jumping" between the complex systems constituting the chain. . Best, Serge Patlavskiy From: Stanley A. KLEIN To: JACK SARFATTI Cc: "online_sadhu_sanga@googlegroups.com" Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2017 12:32 PM Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: Physicists provide support for retrocausal quantum theory, in which the future influences the past Dear Jack and all others,  Jack you implied that you were among the first claiming that the future can influence the past. That isn't the case.  If you Google "Interpretations of Quantum Mechanics" you will find a table with 14 rows for the main different interpretations of quantum mechanics. Most of the entries are from before 1970.  The columns of the Table give the main ontological characteristics of the different interpretations of QM. One of the columns is locality, and the majority of of the rows for that column say "no", meaning that  one can influence things in the past.  So Jack, you were by no means the first with backwards influences. Sending influences backwards in time has always been possible with many interpretations of QM. What is not possible is sending signals backwards in time. The standard retrocausation of QM is only about influences that can't be used for sending signals that could lead to actions. This has been well known since the very beginning of QM (Born, Bohr, Heisenberg and de Broglie).    Again, sending influences backwards in time is very, very different from sending signals. Sending influences can not be used for making decisions (like betting on the outcome of a roulette wheel) whereas sending signal could be so used.  Stan