My dilemma: G2, Lamy Safari, Vanishing Point, or Space Pen?

[Lead]

Okay, I'd like to say first that I do now own a Moleskine yet, but will
very soon. I'm really motivated to start putting all of my random
ideas, drawings, mockups, notes, etc., inside of one notebook instead
of sprawled across various scrap sheets of paper, notebooks, index
cards, and text files on my computer. Naturally, I'm also going to get
myself a new pen, a utensil that I know I'm going to have fun using,
one that will motivate me (along with the notebook itself) to write and
draw cleanly on the pages for future use. A cheap pen and a cheap
notebook pretty much drives you to scribble all over the pages with
sloppy writing that you probably won't be able to read in the next few
months (if the notebook lasts that long). So, which type of pen would
be best for this? Along with a pen that writes nicely on the silky
smooth moleskine pages, I want one I can carry around in my pocket,
throw in my bookbag, but still nice enough that I won't lose
carelessly. The ink is a second concern, of course I need a pen with
acid-free ink for preservation, but also ink that comes out of the pen
smoothly. I've become very accustomed to Pilot G2s, and I would hate to
switch to an ink that doesn't flow as well or is noticeably less dark
and rich on the page. This may be why a Space Pen wouldn't be as good
of a choice. The Safari and Vanishing Points interest me, but I haven't
had much experience writing normal text with fountain pens. Does your
handwriting end up better after use of one? Are they versatile enough
for use writing decorative text as well as personal notes and homework?

Well, I hope this garbled stream of questions makes some sort of sense,
I really am excited about getting a Moleskine and a pen well-suited for
me, personally.

[Scott Kitchen]

Speaking as a relative newcomer to the Moleskine phenomenon, I went
through a similar phase. I bought -- and believe it or not still buy
-- pens to check out how they perform on Moleskines, Miquelrius, and
other notebooks.

The pens that I found that will unquestionably perform well in a
Moleskine is the Uniball Signo 207 Micro, 0.5 mm or the Uniball Signo
RT Gel, 0.38 mm. They write clean, the ink flows well, and it doesn't
bleed through the page. 0.7 mm Uniball gel varieties also work pretty
well, but I prefer a finer line.

The problem I found with G2's is that they bled through the page too
much. Uniball rollerballs suffer from a similar problem, even the
micro vision elite and similar pens. I can't speak to fountain pens
or the space pen, though I've heard mostly good things about both.

The thing about the Uniballs that really seals the deal on them --
IMHO, of course -- is that they're cheap. I bought my first one in a
Walgreens. They're also available in the big office supply chains at
reduced prices. I recommend them highly.

Scott

--
Scott Kitchen | www.wheresgeorge.com |
------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar." -- Wash, Serenity

[dark...@gmail.com]

I've got a Safari, and they're great. Very durable, faily inexpensive
to run (you can get five cartridges for a couple of pounds). You can
dump these things in the bottom of a bookbag, not use them for months,
and they'll never fail you. And the ink is fine on MS paper, with very
little bleed through.

One provisio - if you're getting a Moleskine pocket, make the Lamy a
fine nibbed one. Those lines are awfully close together, at least too
much for a medium nib.

I haven't tried the Fisher or the rollerballs you specify though, but
the Safari is definitely okay!

[Lead]

Thanks!
Taking into consideration the fact that G2's bleed through pages and
the Safari's durability, the Safari is looking like the best candidate.
I've had some good experiences with the Uniball pens mentioned too,
thanks for the tip.

[MarcClarke]

Don't overlook the Namiki Vanishing Point pen. I speak as someone who
used the G2 ball point pens extensively, then abandoned the G2 series
for the Uniball Gel 207 Signo series, and has also used a Pilot/Namiki
NVP for years. The NVP is as convenient to use as a regular ball point
pen, the medium NVP point writes like a fine point from most other
manufacturers and works beautifully on Moleskine paper, and the pen
uses either cartridges or bottled ink. My NVP medium and fine point
inserts write more smoothly than my Mont Blanc fountain pens.

The down side to the NVP is that you have to clean it. With a
ballpoint you just send the eternal plastic to the landfill, there to
reside forever.

[AndyH]

I only have 3 of them, G2, Lamy and Safari.

NOT the G2. They blodge all over the place.

Lamy Safari. Buy an ink convertor and use Noodlers ink. Mine is
great.

Space Pen. Mine ran out of ink in no time. I expected it to last
astronauts until they got to Uranus and if not, to the moon at least.
I think these will run out before they have got up the steps of the
rocket.

[GM]

I used to just use whatever Bic was at hand, but was given a silver
Fisher bullet pen for being my pal's best man. I loved that pen, but it
got a bit beat up and when I went to change the refill, it seemed to
rattle and shake more than I would like so I abandoned it. I tried
these gel pens but didn't like them and was looking to switch to a
fountain pen like the NVP, but I found that they were just too
expensive for a pen that I wasn't too sure of. I'd need to audition the
pen for a bit and $100 was too much. Now they can be quite a bit more
too.

So, I was visiting my home town of Toronto a couple weeks back and I
came across the Fisher X750. When I saw it in the display case, I said,
let me see that one, and didn't even know it was another Fisher. It's
quite a sweet little black pen with silver accents, and suits my tastes
perfectly. It's versatile and small, but extends to a nice length and
has a good weight. The metal casing seems very hard (titanium or
something?), but particularly thin. I'm really pleased with it and
would recommend it.

[Beau]

I really like the Uniball Deluxe Micro. It isn't a fancy pen
(available in bulk at office supply stores), but it writes smoothly, is
cheap, is available in a variety of colors and the ink is waterproof.
I'm not one too lose them (a box of a dozen lasted me almost three
years), but if you do, the cost isn't something that brings a tear to
your eye.

I don't take my Moleskine out where it is wet; the waterproof
requirement came out of an earlier career path of mine.

I've started to travel a whole lot more and I don't know if this is an
issue with pens in general on airplanes, but I have had some pretty
serious leakage if I open the pen on an airplane. The leaking only
occurs when I take the cap off, not if I just carry the pen on a plane.
Just to make sure this is an honest and up front recommendation.

[tinyinkling]

First - What are you waiting for? ;-)

Second - I write in my moleskin with with a Sakura pigma micron. I use
the 03 size since it seems best suited to my style. If you're not
familiar with those, they're a felt-tip loaded with acid free india
ink. Satisfying black and rich for both drawings and notes, and I can
pick up a journal for a year ago and there's no fading.

Third - If a pen makes a difference in your handwriting, then it's not
the pen, it's the ritual around the pen. You can transfer that ritual
to opening the book. However, I didn't really start to *use* my
moleskines until I got over the ritual of opening the book. Now that I
use it for everything I write down... class notes, story ideas, phone
numbers, to-do lists, thoughts on books read, lists of books to read...
I want to have the book with me at all times which makes it much more
useful than leaving it at home because I'm pretty sure I won't have
anything profound to write in it today.

[Lead]

Haha, wow, I didn't even think of that. Microns are great pens, more
than a few artists I know swear by them (while I've stuck with dip pens
for inking my drawings). I can see how india ink would be a good choice
for moleskine paper.

[DRoot]

I hate hate hate Safaris. I've purchased three, and all three have gone
back to their respective place of origin. For pens that are heralded
for superior quality, I'm a firm believer you can duplicate the Safari
writing experience with a stick sharpened to a point. 0-for-3 indicates
some flaw in quality control, in my mind.

[Lead]

Could you be more specific; what exactly was wrong with them?

[Lead]

Oh, I don't think I mentioned that I'm buying a Moleskine sketchbook as
opposed to notebook... is that going to be a problem?

[Daly de Gagne]

I used to like Safaris -- the look, the colour, the unabashedly plastic feel.

But over time I noticed that they seem to leak a little ink, no matter how careful I was filling them, or handling them.

I tried a Pelikan Future pen, and loved it. I bought another one. Both are the silver grey, but they come in colours, and when my dealer gets new coloured stock, I will pick up a couple more.

They don't leak, and I think the nib is better than the Safari's nib.

This week I had a chance to pick up a couple of Pelikan M200 pens at 20 percent off. I have never experienced such a smooth writing nib -- and the medium nib writes fine enough to work well in my pocket Moleskine.

The M200 has the built-in piston fill mechanism, where the barrel is the reservoir -- it holds about a gallon of ink -- OK, a lot of ink.

Daly

--
Discuss and learn about David Allen's Getting Things Done:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Getting_Things_Done/

[tinyinkling]

A sketchbook broadens your options. They have thicker (and fewer)
pages. I have some Faber-Castell permanent pens that I was hoping would
be an alternative to the Sakura Pigma Microns, they're not. They're
basically tiny markers with all the bleed and smell that implies.

Anyway, the sketchbook is the only book I use them in.

One thing to be careful of with the sketchbook. It claims it's suitable
for all kinds of media. My first experiment with it, I used a resist
and watercolor because I was trying to capture some batik ideas. It's
not really suitable for that medium. And the pages are smooth, so I
wouldn't do pastel on them, though I would do oil pastel.

Overall, I think the sketchbook is kinda like working on manila file
folders.

[GM]

Just as a follow up... The other day I was horrified to find my Space
Pen X750, mentioned above, at the bottom of the washer as I unloaded
some laundry. I believe I actually shrieked slightly. Anyway, I pulled
it out, and it wrote immediately and as well as ever. There wasn't a
scratch on it. I disassembled it and let it dry and it's like it never
happened. Execept that it smells like Tide, but that's another story.
Tough little pen.

[Lead]

Ugh, I'm sorry, another mistake, I said sketchbook, but I was thinking
plain notebook. I am an artist, but my notebook will be primarily to
record ideas, secondarily for sketching. How hardy are the plain
notebook's pages?

Hahaha, that's amazing!

[Evan Edwards]

On Monday 09 October 2006 8:21, Lead wrote:
> Ugh, I'm sorry, another mistake, I said sketchbook, but I was thinking
> plain notebook. I am an artist, but my notebook will be primarily to
> record ideas, secondarily for sketching. How hardy are the plain
> notebook's pages?

The pages in the plain are very thin, somewhere between bible parchment
and typewriter paper. They are also very finegrain and tough. The color is
off-white, the color of bleached almonds.

If you are sketching with an eye to reproducing the sketches, I'd
recommend against the plain. The paper does bleed very lightly from back to
front, and so you can faintly see what is written on the opposite side of any
given page. If you fill a book with sketches and paragraphs, it gives a
very "journal" feel to the volume, feeling a bit more like a product of a
human hand than a printed book. Some people despise this and only use the
sketchbook, which has fewer pages per volume and thicker paper. Personally,
I prefer the high page count of the plain, and enjoy the worn, full feel that
the thin pages give. It's like the difference between a old brown leather
jacket with worn creases and a perfect fit versus a Motocross jacket with
stiff and unmarred shiny leather: two different choices as to what you want
your journal to look like.

Both work fine for sketches of ideas, IMO. I wouldn't do anything you'd
consider a final version in the plain, but then, the sketchbook is awfully
small for final versions of artwork as well. I'll toss in the secondhand
knowledge (having never bought them) that the watercolor have a different
paper, as thick as the sketchbook, but with a rougher, "spongy" nap. Some
sketchers prefer it.

For acrylics and gluing in items, the plain is perfectly tough, standing
up to fairly heavy coats of paint or glue without wrinkling, and pretty much
never tearing. I've torn apart some Moleskines for their base components,
and I've always been pleasantly surprised at the quality of the materials,
even the "invisible" ones.

--
Evan "JabberWokky" Edwards
http://www.cheshirehall.org/

[Lead]

Thanks a lot for clearing everything up, you answered a few questions
that I was actually about to ask, hehe. I'm a little put off by the
off-white paper, there seems to be some sort of irrational correlation
in my mind between the whiteness of paper and its quality. I'm sure
I'll manage. I'm going to need to exhaust a small bit more of your and
everyone's time by asking this: what pens should I buy for use with a
plain notebook? Fountain pens such as the Safari or Vanishing Point
with a specific type of ink? Signos and G2s? Space pens (if so, please
explain the smoothness of the Fisher and the richness of its ink, using
a G2 and a cheap Bic as two ends of a scale).

I really need to just shut up and spend my pen and moleskine savings
recklessly.

[Evan Edwards]

On Tuesday 10 October 2006 7:37, Lead wrote:
> Fountain pens such as the Safari or Vanishing Point
> with a specific type of ink? Signos and G2s? Space pens (if so, please
> explain the smoothness of the Fisher and the richness of its ink, using
> a G2 and a cheap Bic as two ends of a scale).

I think there you're on your own. Everybody has a different idea of what
is good. Artists tend to dislike sketching with anything with a ballpoint
(including gels), so you might skip the Signos, G2s and Spacepens and go
toward the Rotring or similar art markers (basically very fine felt tip pens)
or fountain pens (the latter of which has a dizzying array of opinions).

Personally, I like very very fine lines, so I like extra fine Lamy Safaris
on my desk (black and red) and a Signo RT 038 on my person (and in the car,
etc). I use a Waterman with a broad nib for the times when I need a wide
line (envelopes mostly).

But, that's just me. Pen choice tends to vary greatly, and of course,
when you go the fountain pen route, you add in choice of ink and nib. What I
like tends to be on the "very fine, dark line" side of things, which some
think is too "scratchy", but I like the feel. I also write two lines of text
on each Moleskine line, so I write small. If I wrote larger, a broader
nib/point would make sense.

By the way, if you find that you like the paper from the plain Moleskine
for art purposes, you can grab a three pack of the plain Cahiers cheaper than
a Moleskine. Get the Extra Large size and work in it, one sketch per side.
They can be torn apart easily to take a large detailed rough draft and pin it
alongside a work in progress. If you like the silky smooth feel of the plain
paper, it's the best way to get a supply of it. Same goes for mindmaps and
brainstorming.

[tinyinkling]

Hi Lead -

Color doesn't correlate with quality, as you know from pastel paper. It
does correlate with reproduceability. Moleskine pages have some clay
content. I can write in them just fine with my Roting art pen. My
roommate uses a Lamy Safari in his.

What color does correlate with is reproduceability. For some examples
of drawings in Moleskines and how they reproduce, check out this Flickr
group: http://www.flickr.com/groups/moleskinerie/

I carry a plain (unlined) notebook and a sketchbook. When I draw in the
notebook, it is to organize and capture thoughts... or for fun.

We're starting to re-hash ground we've already been over, and you seem
to have a lot of anxiety about this purchase... I don't know how you
make decisions, and this is a Moleskine fan group, but there are books
out there that contain sketching paper. You can see examples of some
other sketchbooks here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mattiasa/266841864/in/pool-sketchbook/

[kwo...@gmail.com]

I'll second the vote for the Lamy Safari. I also went with the ink
convertor and Noodlers ink. This is a great combination and an
extensive selection of ink colors is available.

[Daly de Gagne]

Because of leakage problems with the Safari, I would go for the Pelikan Future as a modern-looking, inexpensive quality fountain pen. It works well with converter and Noodlers Ink.

Daly

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Getting_Things_Done/

[S. William Schulz]

On 10/15/06, Daly de Gagne <daly.d...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Because of leakage problems with the Safari, I would go for the Pelikan
> Future as a modern-looking, inexpensive quality fountain pen. It works well
> with converter and Noodlers Ink.

Leakage?

[Daly de Gagne]

William, yeah, some leakage around where the cartridge/converter go. Not a big problem, but whenever I take the pen apart I always end up with ink on my hands, and you can see where ink has accumulated. I've never had that problem with Waterman or Pelikan.

Daly

[Evan Edwards]

On Sunday 15 October 2006 10:37, Daly de Gagne wrote:
> Not a
> big problem, but whenever I take the pen apart I always end up with ink on
> my hands,

I've never had a problem, and I have several, all with converters (Safari
and Joy). There's usually a couple small drops at the very end (where I dip
it in the ink to fill it), but that applies equally to all my pens from my
inexpensive Safaris to my Dukes to to my expensive Watermans (or my
inexpensive Watermans for that matter)... or any other with a similar fill
style.

Also, leaking ink when you take the pen apart is very different from
leaking ink when filled and assembled. I don't know about others, but it
sounded like you were complaining about the pen leaking when in use.

[sbraley]

Odd, my Safari never leaks and I'm pretty rough with the thing,
although I try not to be, but I'm constantly dropping it or subjecting
it to bright sun, so I'm thinking you might have a defective pen.

Where is everyone getting Noodler's ink? I live in the Boston area and
haven't found it yet. At one art supply place, a clerk was restocking
the fountain pen ink and I asked, quite friendly "do you have Noodler's
ink?" and she looked at me as though I had brought up a hairball and
said "I have no idea what you mean by noodling".

I'm told that J. Herbin is a good substitute, that it's very smooth and
lots of colors as well. Anyone having any luck with J. Herbin?

[AndyH]

Mine (and my partner's) have still not leaked.

[Daly de Gagne]

Evan, I'm not talking about a couple small drops.

When I put the Safari together there is no excess ink. Everything is tight and dry.

Next time I take the pen apart there is ink around where the cartridge/converter fits in.

Since that ink was not there prior to use, it has accumulated during use, and is a sign that there is a slow, but nonetheless concerning and potentially messy leak.

Yeah, take a pen apart you get ink on your hands.

But with two of my Safaris I can see the ink accumulated and wet when I take the pen apart.

Daly

[Daly de Gagne]

Pendemonium.com is a good source of Noodlers ink.

Pendemonium's exclusive Noodlers Legal Lapis is a beautiful blue/grey or blue/black -- not sure how to describe it -- and is part of the Noodler's waterproof when it hits the paper ink -- ie. it is water based as fountain pen ink should be, but a chemical in the ink binds with the cellulose in the paper to make the ink waterproof.

Daly

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Getting_Things_Done/

[Lead]

So I finally bought it, well, two. It felt good. I've been to a few
stores looking for the plain notebook, but it's strange that I found it
at a Barnes & Noble, behind the counter. I wonder how many times I've
seen them before without even wondering what they were.
Until I order my fountain pen (probably a Namiki or Lamy), I'm going to
be scribing with my G2, probably also sketching things with my dip pens
when I'm at the house (Hunt 102 and some low-end G-Pen). Thanks for
your help guys.

[Vramin]

Thanks for the tip on the Uniball 207's... they write well, even on the
"rough" side of Cahier's paper, where G-2 extra fine refills get
spotty.

The good news: Uniball 207 refills fit inside of Pilot G-2 Pro and Dr.
Grip Gel pens without alteration. The tip sticks out a little further
than normal, but it does hide completely when closed.

The bad news: I looked on the Uniball site, and the Micro (0.5mm)
refills are not available... apparently the only way to get them is
inside the pens. I was hoping to buy a bunch of refills and "upgrade"
my Pilots. Unless I'm willing to write with 0.7mm I can't do that.

I noticed that they have a 0.38mm version as well... who's tried these?

[theory]

I have, but the .38 is not a 207 pen. They're ok. To be honest I didn't
see much of a difference in line size compared to the .5 207.

I too experience the ink leak in my Safari's where the converter goes.
Not there when I start out and then there later on.

One of them is a fine nib and it seems to be pretty scratchy and skip
quite a bit. The other is a medium nib and it seems like it takes
FOREVER for the ink to dry in a Moleskine. I'm using Noodler's black.
It takes such an insane amount of time for the ink to dry I pretty much
never use them.

[Daly de Gagne]

On 11/5/06, theory <cam...@gmail.com> wrote:

I too experience the ink leak in my Safari's where the converter goes.
Not there when I start out and then there later on.

That's exactly my experience. It is like a slow seepage.

One of them is a fine nib and it seems to be pretty scratchy and skip
quite a bit. The other is a medium nib and it seems like it takes
FOREVER for the ink to dry in a Moleskine. I'm using Noodler's black.
It takes such an insane amount of time for the ink to dry I pretty much
never use them.

I am wondering if it is a question of the kind of ink.  Different inks flow differently, and dry at different rates.  There's a difference among the Noodler inks themselves.

The other thing -- with re to the fine nib Safari -- with fine nibs especially I find it necessary to run water through the nib more often.

Daly

[Thor]

> ... The other is a medium nib and it seems like it takes

> FOREVER for the ink to dry in a Moleskine. I'm using Noodler's black.
> It takes such an insane amount of time for the ink to dry I pretty much
> never use them.

I use a Waterman Phileas pen with a medium nib for almost all of my
writing, especially in my Moleskine notebook. I'm currently trying to
find a fine nib to replace the medium nib that is in the pen.

For ink, I am currently using Mont Blanc black; it seems to take only a
few seconds to dry on my Moleskine's pages. I first used the blue
Waterman ink that came with my pen, and it took a bit longer to dry. I
do also have a bottle of Mont Blanc burgundy ink that I fill my pen
with from time to time, and it too takes only a few seconds to dry.

[Craig]

I use Sakura Gelly Roll pens. I first became interested when I saw
photos on flickr of a test page being subjected to water, hair spray,
and bleach. The Gelly Roll held up the best, much better than a G2. I
read into it more and heard about their smooth feel, so I bought some
and it's very true. They write very, very smoothly. I use the 0.5mm in
my pocket lined Moleskine; you can use the 0.8mm (which I use for other
things) but only if you're very deliberate or clean in your writing,
since its thick line isn't too forgiving when it comes to fixing
misshapen characters. I bought a 0.4mm to try, but it's so scratchy
that I can't see using it for writing sentences; I use it to number the
pages since I can write them very tiny but clearly. There is no bleed
through with the 0.4 or 0.5, and the 0.8 you can see when you hold the
page up to the light, but otherwise with the book flat you won't see it
come through. I highly recommend the Gelato variety which is
retractable and has a nice grip. They're somewhat cheap -- a couple
bucks per pen with refills available for less.

On Sep 30, 1:12 pm, "Lead" <o.o.Pb....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Okay, I'd like to say first that I do now own a Moleskine yet, but will
> very soon. I'm really motivated to start putting all of my random
> ideas, drawings, mockups, notes, etc., inside of one notebook instead
> of sprawled across various scrap sheets of paper, notebooks, index
> cards, and text files on my computer. Naturally, I'm also going to get
> myself a new pen, a utensil that I know I'm going to have fun using,
> one that will motivate me (along with the notebook itself) to write and
> draw cleanly on the pages for future use. A cheap pen and a cheap
> notebook pretty much drives you to scribble all over the pages with
> sloppy writing that you probably won't be able to read in the next few
> months (if the notebook lasts that long). So, which type of pen would
> be best for this? Along with a pen that writes nicely on the silky
> smooth moleskine pages, I want one I can carry around in my pocket,
> throw in my bookbag, but still nice enough that I won't lose
> carelessly. The ink is a second concern, of course I need a pen with
> acid-free ink for preservation, but also ink that comes out of the pen
> smoothly. I've become very accustomed to Pilot G2s, and I would hate to
> switch to an ink that doesn't flow as well or is noticeably less dark
> and rich on the page. This may be why a Space Pen wouldn't be as good
> of a choice. The Safari and Vanishing Points interest me, but I haven't
> had much experience writing normal text with fountain pens. Does your
> handwriting end up better after use of one? Are they versatile enough
> for use writing decorative text as well as personal notes and homework?
>
> Well, I hope this garbled stream of questions makes some sort of sense,
> I really am excited about getting a Moleskine and a pen well-suited for
> me, personally.

[Thor]

> For ink, I am currently using Mont Blanc black; it seems to take only a

> few seconds to dry on my Moleskine's pages...

I forgot to mention that I experience no feathering using the Mont
Blanc inc, and though I do experience minor bleed through, I'm fairly
certain that this will be reduced some when I can replace my pen's
"medium" nib with a "fine" nib.

[Don]

Lead wrote:
> Well, I hope this garbled stream of questions makes some sort of sense,
> I really am excited about getting a Moleskine and a pen well-suited for
> me, personally.

Pardon my late entry here - I'm only just catching up on my reading.

Allow me to recommend the Kaweco sport line of fountain pens.

Swisher Pens offers them 'customized' with o-rings so you can use them
as eyedropper pens. They hold a ton of ink and you can order them in a
variety of nib sizes. If you get the clear/translucent ones, you can
easily keep an eye on your ink reserve.

The pens are quite compact when closed (screw on cap) but, when posted,
are of average length for writing.

I have three of these currently, and another (broad nib) on backorder.
Kaweco also makes a line of leather (2 pen) cases that are perfect for
slipping in a pants pocket.

Good Luck!

[Craig]

I finally tried some G2s and I was pretty unimpressed. I posted a
comparison in the thread "G2 Pilot Pens - Is their Greatness &
Popularity Just Fictional" if you're interested.