Fwd: [BM_mumbai] Harvard Commencement Address by Bill Gates

[Abhijit K]

for bm members to comment on. please read the communication ahead..
- abhijit

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Abhijit K < abhi...@gmail.com>
Date: Jul 18, 2007 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: [BM_mumbai] Fwd: [rait1991] Harvard Commencement Address by Bill Gates
To: BM_m...@yahoogroups.com

I dont know whether that was sarcasm or an expectation. Anyways,

I believe I am one among those people trying to find alternatives.. as they are doing in countries like Venezuela.. 

Not knowing an alternative should not mean that Unjust should let pass by.. a System that is unjust must be opposed..  the alternatives will keep emerging.. 

People have always thrown away an unjust system as they did in India against British, In Russia against Communists, in Venezuala against Capitalists.. 

Participatory democracy (or direct democracy) in Venezuela,  Co-operative economy, Social Economy (as Vivek Claire www.nirmansanvad.org suggests), ways suggested by Vandana Siva, or Noam Chomsky ( www.chomsky.info) are some of the emerging promising ways..

We must keep trying and thinking..
- Abhijit

On 7/18/07, Nikhil Kulkarni <kulkarn...@gmail.com > wrote:

I feel that you were probably wanting to write more but didnt have time ....  that you do have an 'alternate system' in mind which you are proposing as a 3rd alternative to capitalism and communism .....

I would want to wait for your complete thoughts on that before responding - because otherwise my comments might fall into incorrect context.

Nikhil

On 7/18/07, Abhijit K < abhi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sorry for delay in replying.. was busy in National Convention related work..

I was disappointed not to see anyone except Akalpita at Gwalior..

.Please read ahead in blue font.

On 7/8/07, Nikhil Kulkarni < kulkarn...@gmail.com> wrote:

My thoughts ....

* How much impact do you think 2 or 3 or 10 b$ by bill gates will make to world poverty, in statistical terms?

First a correction - its $90 bn not $2-10 bn... However, I do agree that the actual effect of the money directly will be very quite less as compared to that caused by economic development. However, it is necessary to note that in certain parts of the world (read: Africa) people are not even fit to take advantage of simple economic reforms also - these people need to be brought to that level first - they need to cross that threshold of stepping into a civilized world from a tribal set up they are used to ... this critical step needs a support from people like Gates and their foundations .....

I dare say we don't need such 'push beyond threshold' foundations in India - even if there are deprived people - we Indians ourselves should be able to help our brethren ...

Ok 90b$ to trust you.. now there are lot of things that you talked about.
a) What makes you/us determine that the tribal setup is not civilised? What is civilisation?
b) How do you determine that people are fit or not fit? 
c) How do you think we Indians should help our brethern. To be more specific, how do you think we can eliminate poverty?

* Why it should be Bill Gates to decide how 2b$ should be spent on "people" ?

Why not?? He has earned this money through his own efforts - his own innovations, his own business shrewdness, his

He earned  most of his money by monopolizing and killing competition.
Competition does not exist in today's world where 90% of the research money goes for making weapons.

own business acumen ... he might as well have set up amusements parks using this money .. or invested in other startups or simply bought islands - just the fact that he has decided to use it for charity does not mean that he looses its possession - that it becomes public property --- any such thinking smells of the FAILED economic system called Leninist

.Disagreed. It does not become public property. If the system stays the same, the money goes back to where it came from -- the rich. 

communism ....

Thanks for saying that. I had already appreneded that I am writing at the risk of being called a leftist.. Nikhil went one step further..

Why is it that one whould think that there are only two alternatives? Where is that "innovation" that you talked about Bill Gates.. ?  Is naything that talks against current capitalist setup to be called communist?

The point was: Who owns the earth? The current setup plans to sell each and everything on earth to individuals.. those who already have money.. .. did you read the news about crowfard market?

If the doubt however is whether Gates has the required intellectual capacity to decide the best way to use this money for charity - then I am sure he himself realizes his limitations on philanthropy and has employed experienced social workers to manage the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.

Again. Who are the social workers? What makes them understand the needs of people?

isnt it the People, directly themselves, hwo understand their nees better?.

3 examples from http://www.gatesfoundation.org/AboutUs/QuickFacts/LeadershipStaff/

Before joining the foundation, Scott served for seven years as president and CEO of the Seattle-based Group Health Cooperative, one of the oldest and most respected integrated health-care systems in the U.S.

Before joining the foundation, Burwell served in the Clinton administration as deputy director of the Office of Management and Budget, assistant to the president, deputy chief of staff to the president, and chief of staff to secretary of the treasury. She serves on the Board of Directors for MetLife Inc. and the Governing Council of the Miller Center of Public Affairs at the University of Virginia.

Before joining the foundation, Yamada served as Chairman of Research and Development and was a member of the Board of Directors at GlaxoSmithKline. Prior to that, he was chairman of the Department of Internal Medicine at the University of Michigan Medical School and Physician-in-Chief at the University of Michigan Medical Center. Yamada is a past president of the American Gastroenterological Association and the Association of American Physicians, a master of the American College of Physicians, and a member of the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Science in the United States and the Academy of Medical Sciences in the United Kingdom.

Wow. Such a good setup of people. I am sure with all their experience at eliminating poverty and unemployment they will run the Gates fundation very sucessfully. I wonder why he did not employ any of Enron executives .. :)).
 

* Why should a corporation, the primary aim of which by definition is to make profit, involve in philanthropy ? Is it its area of expertise ? Is "kalyaan of garib log" its area of expertise?

No corporation is involving in philanthropy. Bill has created a separate foundation called Bill & Melinda Gates foundation. So has Google - it is called Google.org and is managed separately from Google Corp.

Again, are you kidding? What is the difference? It is the same money that Gates earned through Internet Explorer monopoly, isnt it?.

It is just that these organizations are allocating a part of their profits to philanthropy - just like you and me would donate a part of our salary to charity. In fact the case of Bill Gates is further similar because it is not Microsoft but Bill himself who is donating his personal wealth to the Foundation.

Very good. Appreciated.

* Excluding its initial years, how much has Infosys stayed true to its philosophy ? How many employees of Infosys are trully stake holders in infosys? How much salary infosys pays to a new joinee and is it in direct correspondence with the "socialist heart" of N'murthy ?

There is a popular misconception that a corporate must create value throughout its lifetime. This is not necessarily true.

The Corporation is supposed to create profits NOT value. Value is created as byproduct of profit earning. Often

.So some entirty can continue creating profit without any value for society. Thats what you said. Thanks for saying my point.
That is the loophole.

A rich person need not do anything "productive", just play in stock markets, or exchange markes and can still make money.. 

maximmum value is created within organizations at the time of conception - because there is a lot of steam in the engine then. There are some organizations like 3M who have an extreme innovation focus and hence continue wealth creation long after their conception - but again such wealth creation happens essentially due to new ventures. Routine work, say for example - power generation - is meant to create profits only ...

Specifically, Infosys has helped empower people in 3 ways ..

1. It created immense value at the inception stage making Rupee millionaires out of many of its initial employees.

So ? How does that affect the poor?

2. It continues to inspire entrepreneurs in India who want to repeat its success

So ? How does that affect the poor?

3. It creates value every time it records profits and its share price soars allowing many people to become millionaires by trading these shares - though this contribution would be minimal compared to what it did inits initial years.

So ? How does that affect the poor? Only 1% of people trade on stock markets..  half of them get poor on stock markets.. 

* Where does capitalism grow after it has exhausted all the resources/markets available to itself (as you must be knowing american economy has become stagnant since decades.. and now growing much.. ) ? I hope all of you know that continuous perpetual "growth" is essential  element of capitalist system. (I'm asking this question, at the risk of being called a leftist.. because nowadays anyone who speaks against existing system is supposed to be a leftist )..

Misconception again ... The US is still one of the faster growing economies of the world. It is economies like Japan and Europe who have slowed down. But this fact anyway does not negate the point you are trying to make that capitalism needs new markets to grow.

Where did you read that US is a fastest growing economy?

  https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html#Econ This is US gover website.

Says that it is ~3%. That is considered to be an almost stagflating economy.

Yes, capitalism needs new markets to keep growing - but that does not mean it needs new markets for the SAME products. We are getting confused because of disparities that NON-ECONOMIC or NON-MARKET factors like  imperialism have created giving rise to a situatation where the demand of some old goods is picking up NOW in poor countries and so new markets are being discovered for old products in newly developing economies.

Exactly. Isnt it what the British did to India?

However, look at the world today - is it only the developing world where new markets are being discovered ?? Think of iPods, iPhones, Mobile technologies, Social Networking, Biotechnology, fashion technology, Carbon trading exchanges - are these not newer markets ??? Was any of these envisaged when the US and USSR were fighting the battle of industrialization and manufacturing of goods ???

Ans to last que is yes. Most of these things are a fallout of the space race.. USSR was quite ahead in space race..
Did  USSR not progress in Science and Tech?

How did Madam Curie invent Radioactivity or Newton found gravitation.. they did not need any of these neocolonial liberalism thingsy 

Yes, capitalism needs new markets to thrive but Capitalism also gives rise to new markets!! Capitalist economy is a self sustaining chain of creation of new markets and serving them - this is development - this is value creation.

It does not. It can not. The physical resources in the world are limited. That is why the West is coming to east seeking markets.. again.. 

Calling capitalist economy a self sustaining one is a big joke. How many times have you heard about "sustainability" in today's newspapers? ... the fact is this model cant beocme sustainable..

Grwoth is essential.. for that consuming more resources is essential. It cant be sustainable.
?

* Finally, can anyone please tell me how exactly the 2-5-10 b$ of Bill gates will be spent and how exactly will they eliminate poverty (eliminate in a sustained manner.. that is it should not lead to regenreation of poverty)?

Read all this here: http://www.gatesfoundation.org/AboutUs/OurWork/OurApproach/

Yeah i read that. It does not say anything. 

* What Md. Yunus is doing.. is it really capitalism ?

No, according to me not. In fact I feel that the whole concept of microfinance (while having its benefits) is being over glamorized. But that would be another topic of discussion - would love to do a discussion on Micro Finance especially whether and how should we at BM use the concept in our work.

Bm should use all such things ofcourse.

I think that both communism (in the Russian form) and Capitalism (in the European/American form) have failed. The world is realising this..

Md. Yunus or Bill Gates philonthrophy are just a reflection of this realisation..  People have good intentions.. but the system destroys the intentions..  all these attemps are some escapes from the system..  but not concrete ones..

Real democrasy did not exist in USSR.. neither does it exist in US..  in Russia the burecracy ruled... in US the corporations rule..  people have/had no say in the running of the country..

The world needs different mechanisms..
- Abhijit

--
Abhijit Meenakshi
About my name: www.geocities.com/abhijit1303/aboutname.txt
www.bharatudaymission.org

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Abhijit Meenakshi
About my name: www.geocities.com/abhijit1303/aboutname.txt
www.bharatudaymission.org

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Abhijit Meenakshi
About my name: www.geocities.com/abhijit1303/aboutname.txt
www.bharatudaymission.org

[Vignesh S K]

Abhijit,

 

Can you help me (and others) here, the www.nirmansanvad.org is not opening up, there could be a spelling error and the other site   www.chomsky.info contains too many articles, which one are you specifically mentioning here about.

 

Thanks and Regards

 

S.K.Vignesh