Gmail: POP is retrieving e-mails from All Mail folder instead of Inbox
VanguardLH
sent e-mail from the All Mail folder during a POP mail poll. Only
items in the Inbox should get retrieved using POP. Under the
"Forwarding and POP/IMAP" settings:
- Disable forwarding.
- POP enabled (all mail delivered after when POP got enabled).
- Delete Gmail's copy (so it behaves like POP).
- Disable IMAP
Using the webmail interface to my Gmail account, all folders have been
emptied. That means Sent Items, All Mail, and Trash are empty, and so
is the Inbox. It's all empty.
I compose a new e-mail using the webmail interface and send it. A copy
(or link to it) shows up in the Sent Items and All Mail folders. That's
expected. The e-mail arrives okay. Now what would you expect is you
used POP to poll the Gmail account at this point?
I just *sent* an e-mail using Gmail's webmail interface. I have NOT
received any e-mails so the Inbox is empty. All folders are empty
except for the copy of the sent e-mail in Sent Items and All Mail
folders. The Inbox is empty so a POP mail poll from a local e-mail
client should show that there are no e-mails in my Gmail account. Nope,
the POP e-mail client gets a value back from the UIDL command which is
the mail server telling it that there is an item in the mailbox (which
is the Inbox folder for POP access). Yet the webmail interface shows
there are no messages in the Inbox.
And what might that new mail be that the local e-mail client sees? It
is the message that I just composed and sent out using the webmail
interface to my Gmail account. Huh? I *sent* that e-mail. I did not
receive it. I looked at the headers in the e-mail received by the
local e-mail client and they are:
Received: by 10.142.143.20 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Aug 2008 22:48:39 -0700
(PDT)
Message-ID: <myGmailmessageID>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 00:48:39 -0500
From: "myname" <myGmailaddress>
To: <myISPaddress>
Subject: testing ghost message's source
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_Part_56989_11591284.1218347319350"
Delivered-To: <myGmailaddress>
<blank line>
<content of my test message>
So something is wrong in the headers in that there is only one Received
header and the Delivered-To header says it got delivered to
<myGmailaddress> instead of to <myISPaddress> (although the test e-mail
does show up at myISPaddress). It has only a single Received header
because it is NOT a message in the Inbox. It is an internal copy of
the e-mail that I sent - and that is in the All Mail folder. Sure
enough if I delete the copy of the *sent* e-mail in the All Mail folder
an re-poll using the local POP e-mail client, that message disappears
from the list of messages in the e-mail client.
So Gmail is farked yet again (for my account, that is). POP access to
my Gmail account is yanking copies of messages from the All Mail folder
instead of from the Inbox folder. Well, the All Mail folder contains
copies of messages that were SENT along with those that were received.
I don't need my local e-mail client to retrieve a copy of an e-mail
that was *sent* using the webmail interface. I'm using POP, not IMAP,
so the only folder from which I expect to retrieve messages should be
from the Inbox folder, and that's all.
I have tried disabling POP and reenabling it. Didn't help. I tried
changing "delete Gmail's copy" to archive it and leave in Inbox but
then those settings shouldn't apply since there is nothing in my Inbox
to retrieve by a POP client. When the POP client issues the UIDL
command, Gmail is listing the messages in the All Mail folder. Jesus
Christy Brinkley, so what has Gmail screwed up now. Apparently they
wired my All Mail folder to the Inbox folder but only when using their
half-arsed and non-RFC compliant emulated POP3 interface. The webmail
interface shows the right contents in each folder but that's not what
their POP interface goes by. Again there is a synchronization problem
between their webmail and POP3 interfaces.
So what is your guess as how to get their interfaces synced up and stop
having Gmail report sent messages in my All Mail folder as if they were
items in my Inbox to a POP e-mail client? So far, I haven't figured
out a way to get Gmail kicked in the butt to get it straightened out
regarding which folder is what when using the POP interface.
There have been problems in the past experienced by myself and others
where Gmail will report there are no items in the Inbox. It would
return a null list for both the LIST and UIDL command and yet the
webmail interface showed several messages in the Inbox. For that, the
cure was to delete all items from the Inbox after which a POP mail poll
would probably work. I haven't come up with a trick for this one where
the POP interface is grabbing items from the All Mail folder instead of
the Inbox folder.
Rhonda Lea Kirk Fries
> E-mail sent using the Gmail webmail interface will return a copy of
> that sent e-mail from the All Mail folder during a POP mail poll.
<snipped nearly 100-line dissertation on how Vanguard thinks Gmail is
supposed to work>
Here's how it works, by design:
http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=16418
Some of us like this feature. If you don't, create a filter.
Sheesh.
--
Rhonda Lea Kirk Fries
"You know you can indict a ham sandwich if you want to."
William J. Martini, Judge, United States District Court
VanguardLH
> VanguardLH wrote:
>> E-mail sent using the Gmail webmail interface will return a copy of
>> that sent e-mail from the All Mail folder during a POP mail poll.
>
> <snipped nearly 100-line dissertation on how Vanguard thinks Gmail is
> supposed to work>
So did my explanation leave out anything that someone might've wanted to
know to help analyze the problem? I treat Usenet how it should be
treated: NOT as a chat room full of disconnected posts and where
respondents have to keep prodding the OP for more information in
piecemeal fashion.
No, my "dissertation" wasn't on how "Gmail is supposed to work". It was
quite obvious that I know how "POP is supposed to work" and Google says
(but obviously lies) that they support POP access. In other testing,
I've also discovered that their poorly emulated POP access doesn't
properly handle the TOP command. Apparently the Gooligans are too lazy
to be bothered reading the RFCs regarding how POP is defined. When
someone mentions Post Office Protocol (POP), it actually has a meaning
that isn't defined by Google (or Microsoft or your ISP).
> Here's how it works, by design:
>
> http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=16418
>
> Some of us like this feature. If you don't, create a filter.
>
> Sheesh.
Thanks for the web help page. Unfortunately, they don't bother to
explain HOW to define a filter (i.e., on what to look for in the
non-received e-mail which is a copy of *sent* e-mail when their webmail
interface is used). My guess is to look for when the From and
Delivered-To headers both have my e-mail address; however, not all
e-mail clients let you specify any header to include in their filters
(i.e., you may not be able to include the Delivered-To header in a
filter). So just how will I differentiate between a truly RECEIVED
e-mail into the Inbox of my Gmail account from a copy of an e-mail that
was SENT using their webmail interface?
I already have a rule to that looks for my e-mail address in the From
header for received e-mails (since I don't send e-mails to myself except
when I need to test a setup). Such e-mails are from spammers. While
this will work to identify this circumlocutive e-mails (emails retrieved
via POP from the All Mail folder that were sent, not received), I don't
use the "me in From" filter to delete those messages but treat them as
spam and moved into the Junk folder. They are suspect of being spam but
that doesn't necessarily make them spam. Gee, now I get something more
to fill up my Junk folder: e-mails sent when using the webmail interface
will end up getting yanked when using POP access and get moved into my
Junk folder.
If Gmail is going to use their own customized behavior for POP access,
they really should call it GPOP so users are not misled. POP actually
has a standardized definition. Even pompous Microsoft didn't try to
redefine POP and instead chose to devise their own proprietary e-mail
protocols (DAV and Deltasync). If Gmail wants to bastardize POP then
they should call it something other than POP. If you ordered a steak,
you wouldn't be a bit surprised to find fish on your plate?
Thanks for the web help page explaining yet another Googlism. Basically
it says, "We don't do *real* POP".
Rhonda Lea Kirk Fries
Basically what Google says is "We offer a free service. If you don't
like our free service, use a different service." Me, I'm thrilled that
Gmail allows me to download my "sent" mail, and I wish that the other
mail servers I use, paid and unpaid, would do the same.
I'm good with complaining about what I have to pay for, but if I'm not
paying for it, I figure I have no gripe. From what I see around me,
however, I'm in something of a minority in that regard.
As for your problem, you can always tell Google *right on that page*
that their answer isn't helpful and why (with a brief comment). You can
also search through the help groups. I took a quick browse through, and
I did find several topical posts, but not knowing what mail client
you're using, I didn't look for detailed information.
VanguardLH
> Basically what Google says is "We offer a free service. If you don't
> like our free service, use a different service."
Yeah, right, the old, stale, and childish stance that I have to accept
'what is' because it's free (rolls eyes). I did thank you before for
your help in providing Google's web help page explaining that they
further bastardized the definition of POP. In following with your
eloquent summary and since you thought it appropriate:
Sheeesh.
Yeah, that "you can only bitch if you pay" argument has been used many
times by those that want to push off complaints. It doesn't work
because it presupposes that humans must become automatons or wholly
subservient peons when they accept free stuff. It also presupposes that
anyone providing free stuff doesn't want any feedback on what they
produce.
No one cares about the vacuous command "thou shalt not complain or
question against what thee receives for free". Everyone you spout that
at is just going to roll their eyes.
> Me, I'm thrilled that Gmail allows me to download my "sent" mail, and
> I wish that the other mail servers I use, paid and unpaid, would do
> the same.
They do. *It's called IMAP.* Gmail has IMAP, too, yet they screwed up
POP and tried to incorporate some of IMAP's features into POP (actually
I suspect they didn't try to do anything and this behavior is a side
effect of how they setup their webmail interface; i.e., it was an
accident). POP is not IMAP. Those are 2 *different* e-mail protocols.
If you want the retrieval of your sent messages then use IMAP, not POP.
Of course, since Google doesn't know or care what is POP, there are
probably anomalies with how they implement IMAP.
So the list continues as to how Google can't manage to properly support
POP (and that is the POP that everyone else understands, not Google's
peculiar definition):
- E-mails *sent* from the webmail interface will get listed by the UIDL
command issued by a POP-compliant client, a command that should only
list *received* items.
- The TOP command is handled as if it were a RETR command.
- The RETR command is not handled like a retrieve but instead a compound
function depending on a server-side configuration that alters the
response behavior for a RETR command to do instead: RETR+LEAV(e),
RETR+ARCH(ive), and RETR+DELE. Yet real POP has a definition of what
RETR does and also what the separate DELE command does but Gmail wants
to combine the RETR with DELE or completely ignore the DELE depending on
server-side configuration.
I doubt I've hit all the anomalies of Gmail's so-called "POP" access
method. There aren't that many commands in the POP protocol. Gmail has
already violated the STAT, LIST, UIDL, TOP, RETR, and DELE commands. So
what's left? Just the USER and PASS commands (APOP is probably not
supported since Gmail demands SSL connects). Yeah, right, Gmail
supports POP, uh huh, and yet it doesn't comply with the defined
behavior for any of the POP commands. That it works (but only for a
single e-mail client polling the account) does not qualify that Gmail is
a POP service as POP is defined by standards outside the control of
Google to modify for their own purposes. That's why they should call it
something else, like GPOP and they should actually provide a definition
for their own customized POP-like protocol.
> I'm good with complaining about what I have to pay for, but if I'm not
> paying for it, I figure I have no gripe. From what I see around me,
> however, I'm in something of a minority in that regard.
So if it is free, they shouldn't be required to use the same definitions
when speaking to you as someone else to whom you pay. Must be pretty
tough to get a conversation going at a party without first having to pay
them to converse with them because otherwise they all come up with
different definitions for the same words.
Unfortunately no one is developing an e-mail client that complies with
Google's peculiar concept of what is POP. Google hasn't published a
document to define their own GPOP protocol. Like the Tower of Babble
story, it's impossible to have a conversation unless there is
commonality in the definition of the words.
Yep, it's a given that you are in the minority regarding users of free
stuff in that such users should not be permitted to discuss, question,
or complain about that free stuff. The existence of forums and
newsgroups to discuss free software evidences that you are in a minority
of automatons that automatically relinquish the ability to announce
problems or incite discourse over displeasure with free stuff. Hey,
viruses are free, too. Some users become complacent when they accept to
use free software. That's definitely not me, and definitely not the
attitude of many users.
> As for your problem, you can always tell Google *right on that page*
> that their answer isn't helpful and why (with a brief comment). You can
> also search through the help groups. I took a quick browse through, and
> I did find several topical posts, but not knowing what mail client
> you're using, I didn't look for detailed information.
That feedback is to assist Google in updating their help pages should
they notice (and take the time to notice) that many users have given
negative scores for a particular web help page. Do you really think
that anyone working on their web help pages is going to have the
influence needed to get the admins or developers that regulate the
behavior of Gmail itself to either comply with e-mail protocol standards
(so they actually speak the same language as everyone else) or stop
declaring they support POP and instead announce their own somewhat
POP-like but customized GPOP protocol which will exhibit side effects if
a POP-compliant client is used against their GPOP protocol? Expecting
negative feedback to their web help to affect the behavior and
compliance to standards by their mail server is like pushing a
disconnected cross-walk button: both have no effect except to placate
the user.
Thanks but we probably shouldn't continue further. This subthread will
probably devolve into an argument over whose opinion is best. Pretty
much it has been evidenced that Gmail has screwed up yet another
definition of what is POP. That is works that way which differs from
how POP is defined to function does help in me figuring out to use the
Gmail service. However, you are really spouting the "don't complain if
its free" mantra to the wrong person. *I am never complacent whether
using free or paid products.* Nothing changes without an impetus.
At this point, I suspect we'll just end up pushing each other buttons in
arguing what I should and should not be allowed to complain about, that
I should never question on how to use a free product, that a free
product should be able to profess support of a standard but does not, or
why I use a free product if I have problems with it.
The Real Vanguard
>
> I suspect we'll just end up pushing each other buttons..
Oh, do give the transgendered k00k a reach-around.
That would be about your speed, YOU JOBLESS IDIOT!