[Grok-dev] Restarting web development after 6 years... With Zope based tools?

[Milind Khadilkar]

Hi all,

As a company we were actively into software development till about 2011-12, and we worked on projects in Zope2, Zope3, Grok (and also GAE/python).

We are considering restarting development again, largely for scientific/educational applications, and we expect Python to remain our primary language.

In the meantime, all internal knowledge and wisdom that we had on Zope, grok etc. has vanished and we would be starting really from scratch.

We are thinking of starting out with grok. At this point we haven't been able to get the latest grok working. (Ah! we aren't even sure which is the latest grok!).

I request your thoughts on this.

Thanks and best wishes

Milind Khadilkar

[Joe Steeve]

On Sun, 2017-07-02 at 15:57 +0530, Milind Khadilkar wrote:
> In the meantime, all internal knowledge and wisdom that we had on
> Zope, grok etc. has vanished and we would be starting really from
> scratch. We are thinking of starting out with grok. At this point we
> haven't been able to get the latest grok working. (Ah! we aren't even
> sure which is the latest grok!).

I would suggest you try Pyramid. Since you already have a zope
background, you'll feel at home (mostly :D).

--
Joe Steeve
HiPro IT Solutions Private Limited
http://www.hipro.co.in/

[Milind Khadilkar]

:)

Thanks.

Can Grok work with GAE, the way Flask or Django does?

In our earlier GAE work we had used ZPT and that had worked well. I suppose the newer recommendation is Chameleon...

I would try out Zopache. Why just for fun? 😃

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 7:41 PM, Christopher Lozinski <lozi...@freerecruiting.com> wrote:

 

On Jul 5, 2017, at 2:29 PM, Milind Khadilkr <zedo...@gmail.com> wrote:

As of now, my uneducated preferences are, in order, Grok, Zope2 (...4), Pyramid, Flask…

It is not that uneducated.  I really like grok.  

I would stay away from Zope 2.  Unless you have something really simple to do. 

Grok Zope and Pyramid have a much better view-on-objects model. 

I do not know much about Zope 4. 

For fun, you may want to take a look at Zopache.com. It offers through the web development with Folders, HTML, CSS, Javascript, File, Image and Jade objects. 

Really a successor to Zope 2. I dream of releasing it as a Docker container in the Docker store. 

Anyhow thanks for the interest.  I updated grok and grok.install on github.  We will see what happens with my grok pull request. 

Warm Regards

Chris

[Christopher Lozinski]

On Jul 6, 2017, at 11:08 AM, Milind Khadilkar <zedo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks.

Can Grok work with GAE, the way Flask or Django does?

Not well. 

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bDOLJMHfUy4J:talk.quintagroup.com/blogs/myroslav/zope-at-gae+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=pl

In our earlier GAE work we had used ZPT and that had worked well. I suppose the newer recommendation is Chameleon…

Chameleon is really nice.  Less rigid than ZPT.  It allows you to type in ${view.context.variable}  or any arbitrary python expression. 

I would try out Zopache. Why just for fun? 😃

Well it is not a supported product.  The issue is security between instances.  I would love to release it as a Docker container, then users could use a web gui to fire up an instance. Develop an app TTW, and never have to know anything about Unix.  That would be a huge step in the right direction.   There are a number of competing browser-based Javascript development environments.  Sadly that whole TTW development thing is disrespected by 99.9% of the people who have the skills to make it happen.  IMHO TTW is why ZOPE was a huge initial success, but also why it died, it was mostly ignored,  because the developers were developing for themselves, rather than for the entry level users. 

Right now I am fighting a bug, I will get back to you about an account.  My sense is that you are not in a huge rush to make a decision. 

Warm Regards

Chris

[Tom Russell]

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017, at 03:25 AM, Christopher Lozinski wrote:

IMHO TTW is why ZOPE was a huge initial success, but also why it died, it was mostly ignored,  because the developers were developing for themselves, rather than for the entry level users. 

I saw this firsthand as a developer in a fairly large deployment involving half a dozen programmers. The first thing we did was create a lengthy script to parameterize adding new content types to Zope. The team had significant expertise in client-server development using C++ and Motif. Several other technology stacks were considered for publishing to the web, such as Visual Studio and Java. When Zope came along it was all aboard. The project lead was a world-class software engineer.

[Milind Khadilkar]

Dear all,

Thanks a lot for your indulgence.

On our side, I don't yet feel empowered to take a decision and would wait till mid August, by when I hope to complete some experimentation with Zope2, Grok, Flask and GAE.

For a small project on our hands, we plan to use GAE, largely because there is someone available locally to do hand holding... and probably also because the customer is fine with anything Google. But that is only an ad hoc decision.

I will keep your advice nuggets in mind as I go forward and will keep reporting.

Thanks again.

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[lozinski]

On Jul 19, 2017, at 11:13 AM, Milind Khadilkar <zedo...@gmail.com> wrote:

For a small project on our hands, we plan to use GAE, largely because there is someone available locally to do hand holding... and probably also because the customer is fine with anything Google.

So here is what I know about GAE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_App_Engine

You will presumably be using the Google Cloud Database. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Cloud_Datastore

It is a relational database.  

I would argue that you would be way more productive if you used Persistent Python, the ZODB.  There are multiple major successful projects built by just one person using the ZODB, literally at 1/100th the price of competing project built using relational databases.  

https://pythonlinks.info/zodb-applications-built-by-just-one-developer

Of course persuading a client of that is impossible.  Why should they take any risk?  Best to just go for a big brand name.  Everyone else does. 

Hope that helps. 

Chris

 

[Milind Khadilkar]

Chris,

No, we would be using the object Datastore in GAE as we have used it earlier. But we would definitely try to use ZODB instead, as we have had good experience with it over our 15 year prior development regime.

As it is, we plan to place the necessary Zope components in GAE so as to allow use of ZPT/chamelion, especially for TALES.

Our earlier customers were willing to accept ZODB... Hope the trend continues.

Thanks.