ZoomFloppy vs 1541-II

[Andy]

I've had my 1541-II for a while and the ZoomFloppy for almost longer! Previously I was able to connect to my PC (Windows 10) with CBM Transfer, format floppies, transfer d64, get directory, no problems. I have a homebrew I wanted to copy to a disk which I haven't tried in years now. Since upgrading to Windows 11, I had to reinstall CBM Transfer and I can't get the drive to work properly. I can connect to the drive and the status gives 00,OK,00,00. If I try to format through CBM the drive chatters for a few seconds then the DRIVE light just flashes repeatedly and never recovers. If I reset the drive the status gives 73, CBM DOS V2.6 1541, 00, 00. I can format through cbmformat and it appears successful. When I try to get a STATUS in CBM Transfer I see 74, DRIVE NOT READY, 00, 00.

What am I doing wrong? Why can't I seem to format the floppy correctly then transfer a d64?

[Andy]

I didn't realize I was using a commercial flopp, trying to format it. I tried an actual blank floppy and it appears to actually format. I try to transfer the d64 through CBM and it freezes at an arbitrary value between 3% and 5%. I have to restart it ad recover thedrive. It seems to have titled the disc correctly but contains no files after a directory command.

[RETRO Innovations]

On 4/26/2023 7:10 PM, Andy wrote:

I didn't realize I was using a commercial flopp, trying to format it. I tried an actual blank floppy and it appears to actually format. I try to transfer the d64 through CBM and it freezes at an arbitrary value between 3% and 5%. I have to restart it ad recover thedrive. It seems to have titled the disc correctly but contains no files after a directory command.

I would try to image the drive using the command line d64copy command.  See if you can do that successfully.  If so, then CBM Transfer might be the issue.

Jim

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 7:04:23 PM UTC-4 Andy wrote:

I've had my 1541-II for a while and the ZoomFloppy for almost longer! Previously I was able to connect to my PC (Windows 10) with CBM Transfer, format floppies, transfer d64, get directory, no problems. I have a homebrew I wanted to copy to a disk which I haven't tried in years now. Since upgrading to Windows 11, I had to reinstall CBM Transfer and I can't get the drive to work properly. I can connect to the drive and the status gives 00,OK,00,00. If I try to format through CBM the drive chatters for a few seconds then the DRIVE light just flashes repeatedly and never recovers. If I reset the drive the status gives 73, CBM DOS V2.6 1541, 00, 00. I can format through cbmformat and it appears successful. When I try to get a STATUS in CBM Transfer I see 74, DRIVE NOT READY, 00, 00.

What am I doing wrong? Why can't I seem to format the floppy correctly then transfer a d64?

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[Spiro Trikaliotis]

Hello,

* On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 09:05:17PM -0500 RETRO Innovations wrote:
> On 4/26/2023 7:10 PM, Andy wrote:
>
> I didn't realize I was using a commercial flopp, trying to format it. I
> tried an actual blank floppy and it appears to actually format. I try to
> transfer the d64 through CBM and it freezes at an arbitrary value between
> 3% and 5%. I have to restart it ad recover thedrive. It seems to have
> titled the disc correctly but contains no files after a directory command.
>
> I would try to image the drive using the command line d64copy command.  See if
> you can do that successfully.  If so, then CBM Transfer might be the issue.

Adding to this: I do not have an Windows 11 machine, and I doubt I will
have one in the near or even more far away future.

Is here anyone who had tried to install OpenCBM on Windows 11, and can
report success or failure?

Regards,
Spiro

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[Andy]

Hi Jim, thanks for the response. I have tried d64copy and every attempt gives a Warning read error. Ultimately it keeps trying to copy the image then gives up and I have to BREAK the loop.

[Andy]

Hi any further advice?

[Tregare]

Have you told windows defender to exclude the various executable pieces like d64copy, etc? I’ve had win 10 and 11 windows defender cause time sensitive usb and serial communications to get corrupted, I also trim down the crud Microsoft installs to run at boot to help.  If you have disk space, you could install virtual box or such and set up a win 7 install in it, and capture the usb device to the virtual machine. (What I had to do on my Mac Pro at one point when my windows drive ate itself.)

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/zoomfloppy-users/1ead31d2-6a4a-4978-a77b-8b0758937010n%40googlegroups.com.

[RETRO Innovations]

On 4/27/2023 4:15 AM, Andy wrote:

Hi Jim, thanks for the response. I have tried d64copy and every attempt gives a Warning read error. Ultimately it keeps trying to copy the image then gives up and I have to BREAK the loop.

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 10:05:20 PM UTC-4 go4r...@go4retro.com wrote:

On 4/26/2023 7:10 PM, Andy wrote:

I didn't realize I was using a commercial flopp, trying to format it. I tried an actual blank floppy and it appears to actually format. I try to transfer the d64 through CBM and it freezes at an arbitrary value between 3% and 5%. I have to restart it ad recover thedrive. It seems to have titled the disc correctly but contains no files after a directory command.

Would you happen to have a 64 or 128 to try the disk on?  The fact that the ZF is reading data and such implies it's the drive, but I don't want to just punt.

Jim

[Andy]

Sorry this took me 10 days to test, I appreciate the help! I dragged my primary 1541 up from the basement and plugged into the ZF. Same result unfortunately. I figured out the disk I was using as a known good disk was borked, so I tried another and I'm now able to get a directory of a disk!

What's the preferred method to format a disk, is it with CBM transfer? We know the drive is working now, shouldn't I be able to format and copy? I found a disk I thought was formatted and tried copying a d64 with CBM Transfer it stuck at 94%. Sorry this sounjds like a waste of time, but this was working gangbusters a few years ago and nothing except possibly the Windows version has changed.

[RETRO Innovations]

On 5/14/2023 1:13 PM, Andy wrote:
> Sorry this took me 10 days to test, I appreciate the help! I dragged
> my primary 1541 up from the basement and plugged into the ZF. Same
> result unfortunately. I figured out the disk I was using as a known
> good disk was borked, so I tried another and I'm now able to get a
> directory of a disk!
>
> What's the preferred method to format a disk, is it with CBM transfer?
> We know the drive is working now, shouldn't I be able to format and
> copy? I found a disk I thought was formatted and tried copying a d64
> with CBM Transfer it stuck at 94%. Sorry this sounjds like a waste of
> time, but this was working gangbusters a few years ago and nothing
> except possibly the Windows version has changed.

From the command line:

cbmctrl pcommand 8 "n0:jim,ji"

[Andy]

My device is at 9 not 8, so I replaced 8 with 9 in your command. Regardless, it just kept accessing the disc for 5 minutes before shutting it down. Is there a way with CBMTransfer?

[RETRO Innovations]

On 5/16/2023 4:59 PM, Andy wrote:
> My device is at 9 not 8, so I replaced 8 with 9 in your command.
> Regardless, it just kept accessing the disc for 5 minutes before
> shutting it down. Is there a way with CBMTransfer?

If cbmctrl does not work, CBMtransfer won't, as it uses the same
commands under the covers.

Since a real drive works with a real 64, the only thing I can surmise is
the ZF is bad.

Jim

[Spiro Trikaliotis]

Hello,

* On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 12:44:44AM -0500 RETRO Innovations wrote:
> Since a real drive works with a real 64, the only thing I can surmise is the
> ZF is bad.

I do not agree.

If *this* drive works with a real 1541 and can format a floppy with it,
I do not see any way the PC or the ZF can create problems using the
cbmctrl pcommand 9 "n0:jim,ji" format.

Both (the C64 and the PC+JF) just issue the command (OPEN
1,9,15,"N0:JIM,JI" on the C64 side) and then wait for the floppy to
terminate it (CLOSE 1). There is almost nothing the PC and the ZF can do
to cause problems once the format started:

1. The ZF could play with the IEC lines. Unless it is the RESET line,
the floppy will happily ignore that.

2. If it is the RESET line, the floppy would reset. In this case, this
would be visible, and we could try to find out why this happens.

3. The ZF could accidentially drive some lines low. Whatever happens,
this would come to one of the cases 1. or 2.


Of course, you could issue the command with PC + ZF, and, once started,
disconnect the ZF from the floppy, in order to make sure that it is not
the ZF that causes problems. (Please, do NOT do this on a regular basis,
just for this one test here! Unplugging devices while powered on can
cause harm to the devices!)

[Andy]

What command do you suggest I enter and when should I power down the ZF? What result would I look for, a successful format?

[RETRO Innovations]

On 5/17/2023 7:48 AM, Andy wrote:
> What command do you suggest I enter and when should I power down the
> ZF? What result would I look for, a successful format?

I would just wait until the unit starts the format, and then pull the
IEC cable from the drive.  It will not hurt the drive, and that should
render the ZF out of circuit.

Jim

[Andy]

I did that, the format continued on for 5 minutes. I don't see how it's the zoomfloppy if it's connecting and accepting commands buth GUI and CLI.

[Andy]

Unfortunately not skilled enough with a C64 and haven't used it in years. I do not remember how to format a disk on the actual C64, though i suppose I could look into it. I did not mean to convince anyone I had done this!

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 8:27:02 AM UTC-4 Spiro Trikaliotis wrote:

[RETRO Innovations]

On 5/18/2023 4:31 AM, Andy wrote:
> I did that, the format continued on for 5 minutes. I don't see how
> it's the zoomfloppy if it's connecting and accepting commands buth GUI
> and CLI.

Yeah, I stand corrected.  I am surprised that a 64 format completes
quickly, but a ZF one would run longer and never finish.

Which CBM machine did you try the format with?

Jim

[RETRO Innovations]

On 5/18/2023 6:48 AM, Andy wrote:
> Unfortunately not skilled enough with a C64 and haven't used it in
> years. I do not remember how to format a disk on the actual C64,
> though i suppose I could look into it. I did not mean to convince
> anyone I had done this!

Oh, I mis understood then.

To format a disk on a 64, it's open 15,9,15,"no:jim,ji":close15


Jim

[Andy Riecker]

I am swapping back and forth between CBMTransfer 2 Beta and trying the CLI with cbmctrl.

I tried

cbmctrl open 15,9,15,"no:jim,ji":close15

it aborted saying Not Enough Parameters

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[Spiro Trikaliotis]

* On Thu, May 18, 2023 at 10:31:09AM -0400 Andy Riecker wrote:
> I am swapping back and forth between CBMTransfer 2 Beta and trying the CLI with
> cbmctrl.
>
> I tried
> cbmctrl open 15,9,15,"no:jim,ji":close15

The command-line

OPEN 15,9,15,"NO:JIM,JI":CLOSE15

that JIM mentioned is for formatting the disk from a C64!


As your format does not finish with the ZF attached, I am absolutely
sure that you do not have an OpenCBM or ZF problem, but your drive is
faulty.

So, it would be best if you could either fix it, or try with a known
good drive.

[RETRO Innovations]

On 5/18/2023 9:31 AM, Andy Riecker wrote:
> I am swapping back and forth between CBMTransfer 2 Beta and trying the
> CLI with cbmctrl.
>
> I tried
> cbmctrl open 15,9,15,"no:jim,ji":close15
>
> it aborted saying Not Enough Parameters

As Spiro says, my comment was in relation to your statement about doing
this from a c64.  It will only work from there.  And, it does look like
I have a typo.  It should be

open15,9,15,"n0:jim,ji":close15

Where n0 is n zero, not n shiftO.

letters should be typed in as written from the startup screen. On the
64, the chars will all be uppercase, which is fine.

Jim

[Andy Riecker]

I assume this is addressing a drive at 9, while my actual C64 drive attached to my 64 is at 8. Regardless, when I enter the command with a blank disk inserted in my 1541, the red light flashes and makes no noise. Even if I was to get the disk to format correctly, I'd have no way of getting my homebrew d64 file to the disk. I was able to format the disk successfully by using the ZoomFloppy and the CLI. "cbmformat 9 GAMES,4" was the example given in the docs, and once I submitted the command I pulled the power to the ZF. I was able to get a directory through CBMTransfer multiple times in a row. I know at least the ZF works for reading disks properly. What I can't do now is transfer the d64 to the disk as every attempt results in the error I reported in my 2nd or so post the "Warning: read error". I'm more lost than ever ;)

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[RETRO Innovations]

I think this might be better solved via a Zoom Call.  Do you have any
availability Friday afternoon/evening to get on a quick
Discord/Zoom/Hangout/Slack call so we can debug that way?  I think I am
confused about your setup(s), so I am giving bad information on how to
diagnose.

Let me know and let me know which technology is preferred, as I think I
can use all of the above.

Jim

[Stephen Chrzanowski]

Andy;

The thing about the 1541/1571/1581 is that they have their own DOS built in.  So if you get the Zoom to start TALKING to initiate the command to do the work, the Zoom has done its job.  When you close the channel, the Zoom is waiting for the drive to finish its business.  The drive itself does the formatting via it's own ROM, not by will of the PC or by the will of any code on the Zoom. 

All the Zoom is doing is sending a few bytes of data to the drive (In this case) to send a command over the IEC.  The command is received and the drive itself does the work.  All of it.  The Zoom is just a bridge, it doesn't DO anything.

I had a lot of fights with the Zoom and my PC and I gave up on it for a couple of years.  I couldn't even get the USB drivers to work at all.  It threw a good chunk of errors and such.  I came back to it probably 6 months ago, and I somehow managed to knock some sense into it, and have it working with Win8 and Win10.  I was able to get D64s copied, and get some disk images ripped that weren't copy protected to G64. Now, I'm using a 1571, not a 1541 to do disk imaging, but even for a 1541-II, a simple format should work.

For example, if you send the OPEN command, and leave the CLOSE command until later, you'll note that the OPEN statement returns immediately.  Once you send the CLOSE command, the prompt waits until the drive is done.

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[Andy Riecker]

I'll add my different setups below, but I'll say I'm not an expert. I understand what the ZF does, I think it's probably working. I'l just trying to get a guide or some bog standard method of doing what I'm attempting. Those with success, what is your process from soup to nuts on how you get a d64 to a disk? Like I said this was working a few years ago last time I copied a d64. I realize it's 40 year old tech, but I feel there must be a tutorial out there.

PC - known good USB - ZF v1.0 (2010) - known working 6 pin cable - serial port of 1541 II, device ID 9 - powered by original 1541 II PSU

TV - Original C64 powered by electroware PSUC64 - known working cable - serial port of original 1541

If I bring the 1541 II drive and attach to the TV, I'm able to load a disk and run. If I bring the 1541 to the PC I get the same results I've gotten with the 1541 II.

[Raj Wurttemberg]

Hi Andy,

There are a few good tutorials for the ZoomFloppy on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+to+use+zoomfloppy

/Raj W.

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[Andy Riecker]

I have 30 new old stock disks that will hopefully do the trick. I went to the Basic Bites video on how to do this in 2022. Very informative! He uses a 1571, then i remembered I had a 1571 attached to my old C128 that I've never used. I hooked it up and am only using cbmctrl at this point. I was able to format a disk, copy a disk to a d64 file, then copy a d64 file to a blank disk. I was able to load the game on my 1541/C64, so progress! I think using the command line must be the way to go, I don't think CBM Transfer is worthwhile.

My next question is about the remainder of the disks. The game has 4x d64 files and I bought DSDD disks. Basic Bites said it's not possible to format or copy to both sides of the disk with a 1571. I was hoping I could use 2x disks with a d64 on each side, is that possible with my current setup? I tried formatting the B side of the disk and it gave a read error.

[Dan Gahlinger]

Just in case- you need to notch the other side of the disk in order to format it.

Many people have forgotten about disk notching. And disk notchers are hard to find.

You can use scissors if you're very careful,

A hole punch can also do the job, again carefully.

Without the notch, the drive considers the disk write protected and won't format it.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/zoomfloppy-users/ef6b2244-1df3-448d-a12c-12d3ccc0ba91n%40googlegroups.com.

[Andy Riecker]

Oh my gosh, of course I forgot to notch the other side. Luckily I bought a notcher years ago just for this purpose. I can now copy to both sides of the disk! Thank you all who helped!

[Andy Riecker]

I also went back to my 1541 II to try seeing if I could get it to work and it can't. It does the same thing where I tell it to format and it goes on without stopping. I send the command and it makes the ratcheting sound for a second then never finishes. Even if I pull the ZF USB after sending the format command, it stops formatting the disk eventually but the DRIVE LED continues to flash. After I reset the drive and take a dir on the disk I get a READ ERROR. I wonder if the 1541 II is broken and if I can repair it?

[Carsten Jensen]

It can happen that the drive needs initialization on the C64.

try first:

OPEN 1,8,15,"I0":CLOSE 1

then:

OPEN 1,8,15,"N0:Label,S1": CLOSE 1

replace 8 with the correct drive ID


and make sure when making these tests, that no other devices are installed in your setup.

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[Andy Riecker]

Which setup do I do this? You folks keep giving me commands and not specifying if it should be done through a C64 or cbmctrl/zoomfloppy

[Carsten Jensen]

on the C64

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[Spiro Trikaliotis]

Hello,

* On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 05:24:54PM -0700 Andy Riecker wrote:
> then never finishes. Even if I pull the ZF USB after sending the format
> command, it stops formatting the disk eventually but the DRIVE LED continues to
> flash.

Oh, it stops formatting and the drive LED flashes? I must have
overlooked this information.

In this case, do the following:

1. Issue the format command ("cbmctrl pcommand 9 n0:name,id") from the
PC side via the ZF.

2. Do *not* pull the ZF from the USB or the floppy side!

3. Once the LED starts flashing (and the drive stops), issue the
following command from the PC:

cbmctrl status 9

4. You should get a line starting with a number as a response. This
is an error message. Please send it to this list here.

[Andy Riecker]

Did exactly as instructed, the status error is: 21,read error,00,00

[Spiro Trikaliotis]

Hello,

* On Sun, May 21, 2023 at 01:30:19PM -0700 Andy Riecker wrote:
> Did exactly as instructed, the status error is: 21,read error,00,00

Well... 21,read error,00,00 means that it cannot read any SYNC mark on
the disk. When you try to format a disk and you get this error on
(pseudo-)track 0 und sector 0, it seems the R/W head is broken or does
not work correctly.

Additionally, you mentioned elsewhere that you get a 74,DRIVE NOT READY
when trying to read a disk.

To me, it very clearly indicates either the R/W head is broken, or the
circuitry that goes there. I think you need some knowledgeable person
who can try to fix the drive. This is nothing we should try to do via
mail from a distance.

[Dan Gahlinger]

There is one thing, but might not likely solve it, however, cleaning the r/w head.

Of course you have to be careful not to damage it.

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[Andy Riecker]

I cleaned the heads and brush of the 1541-II, but they sure didn't look dirty. I have grease incoming for the rails as well. I took the drive to my C64 and reset it with "OPEN 15,9,15,"I":CLOSE15". I then reattached to my ZF. using the CLI I was able to use the cbm commands to format both sides of the disk and d64copy images to both sides. I don't have a clue why the latest beta of CBMTransfer doesn't want to work properly, but I'll just stick to the CLI from now on.