[Fwd: Moussaoui says he was to hijack 5th plane ( / ASSOCIATED PRESS)]

[Cousin Oscar]

Al Qaeda conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui testified today that he and
would-be shoe bomber Richard Reid were supposed to hijack a fifth
airplane on Sept. 11, 2001, and fly it into the White House.

Moussaoui's testimony on his own behalf stunned the courtroom. His
account was in stark contrast to his previous statements in which he
said the White House attack was to come later if the United States
refused to release a radical Egyptian sheik imprisoned on earlier
terrorist convictions.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20060327-014346-9681r.htm

--
Oscar Lewis
iamcou...@yahoo.co.jp

[Jon Spencer]

Who knows whether to believe this guy or not. According to written
testimony from Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, Moussaoui was slated for a follow up
attack.

Just more ties to OBL, of course. They all look and smell a lot like
Gadianton-wannabes to me.

Jon

[John W Redelfs]

On 3/28/06, Jon Spencer <Jon.S...@ldsraleigh.com> wrote:

Who knows whether to believe this guy or not.  According to written
testimony from Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, Moussaoui was slated for a follow up
attack.

Just more ties to OBL, of course.  They all look and smell a lot like
Gadianton-wannabes to me.

Oh, I'm sure that they are Gadiantons, using the broader definition of the term.  Anyone who conspires in secret to commit a crime to get gain or power by committing murder is a Gadianton.  That doesn't mean that all Gadiantons are connected by conspiratorial ties.  But it also doesn't exclude the possibility that some such organizations are much, much more powerful and wealthy than others.

I speculate, and I do so with perfect logic as far as I'm concerned, that there are secret combinations or modern Gadianton bands that are as large, as powerful, and as well organized as any of the Fortune 500.  That doesn't mean that everyone so organized is aware of everything their "company" is doing.  I mean, how many employees of large multinational corporations know about everything their company is doing?  It often serves the purposes of any human organization to keep in the dark many of the aims and objectives of the top leaders.  Gadianton bands aren't anything mystical or supernatural, any more than the Church is.  They are made up of men, many of whom suppose that they are engaged in a good work.  But it is really only the CEO and the Chairman of the Board of Directors, and possible some of those who sit on the board who really know what the corporation is doing in all of its various activities.  Even shareholders don't know what these corporations are doing unless the activities are reported in the annual report or discussed at the annual shareholder's meeting.

People who deny the existence of modern Gadianton Robber bands are denying human nature and the way that men organize themselves to do a task or achieve and objective.  The Book of Mormon clearly teaches that they are had among all nations and peoples, that they prosper when men worship money more than God, and that they do not prosper when the people are righteous.  But the Book of Mormon also clearly teaches that these organized criminals can corrupt the righteous part of the people so that they are supporting the evil that the band does even though they may be doing so unwittingly.

The Savior says that we can discover the wolves among the sheep that come unto us in sheep's clothing "by their fruits."  Well how can we discover these bands led at the top by evil men "by their fruits" if we assign all those "fruits" to mere happenstance or coincidence?  If we aren't looking for "fruits" to discover the existence of these evil organizations, how are we ever going to ferret them out and destroy them from among us?

People can be so naive.  If men are not good or evil just because they are poor, why would they be good or evil just because they are rich?  Because we live in a relatively free country where Everyman fervently believes that he can become rich, we are loath to think that there are any among the rich and powerful who are evil.  But that is a complete denial of human nature.  Just because some rich men are not evil does not mean that none of them are.  And if an evil rich man is an expert in organizing a legal corporation that straddles the globe, why would he be any less competent in organizing such a corporation that engages in criminal activities such as murder, illegal drug production and distribution, fraudulent banking, and even financing both sides in a military conflict which he lobbied to instigate himself?  Don't men and organized groups of men contribute to both sides in political campaigns?  Why do you suppose they do that?  Isn't that the very definition of graft and corruption?  In other nations we call it bribery.  In this country we call it lobbying.  What is the difference?

We all really need to try harder to apply the Book of Mormon teachings about secret combinations to our own day.  We know those stories weren't put there for the benefit of the ancient Americans.  They were put there for our benefit.  Why don't we use them? At the very least, they could help us vote more wisely.  The people in our nation are obviously having some problem in that area in recent decades.  If Bush is not a convincing example, consider Clinton.

John W. Redelfs                                jred...@gmail.com
***********************************************************************
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down
his life for his friends." (John 15: 13)
***********************************************************************
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

[Jon Spencer]

Strangely enough, John, I agree with most, if not all, of what you have
written below. Note that in one of my recent posts I was referring to your
statement that Bush was responding to a command from some Gadianton Leader
to do stupid things and throw the next election to the Dems. Hopefully, I
misunderstood you; your message below would seem to me to indicate that I
did.

It would be downright stupid and naive to think that there are not well
connected, highly placed organizations of criminals who are attempting to
control the affairs of men for their benefit. Of course, they shall fail.
The Plan of Salvation cannot be thwarted by any being. Anyone, including
Bush and/or Clinton, could be unknowingly manipulated by these folks. There
is even some diminishingly small chance that they are knowingly
participating, but I simply do not accept that. Of course, I could be
wrong.

It is clear to me, however, that Satan is actively promoting these groups
with all his might, mind and strength. And Satan is no 98 lb weakling.
But, when we align ourselves with the Lord and with others who do the same,
Satan doesn't stand a chance (in the long run at least).

Jon

----- Original Message -----
From: "John W Redelfs" <jred...@gmail.com>
To: <Zio...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 1:11 PM
Subject: [ZION] Re: [Fwd: Moussaoui says he was to hijack 5th plane ( /
ASSOCIATED PRESS)]

[John W Redelfs]

On 3/28/06, Jon Spencer <Jon.S...@ldsraleigh.com> wrote:

Strangely enough, John, I agree with most, if not all, of what you have
written below.  Note that in one of my recent posts I was referring to your
statement that Bush was responding to a command from some Gadianton Leader to do stupid things and throw the next election to the Dems.  Hopefully, I
misunderstood you; your message below would seem to me to indicate that I
did.

I would like to reaffirm what I have perhaps said in the past less clearly.  I have no way of knowing whether or not Bush is a willing or knowing participant in any Gadianton Robber band.  I suspect that he is, but the extent of his knowledge and accountability is impossible for me to know.  I suspect that only a seer could know, and then only if it was need-to-know information that the Lord wanted him to have.

I do know that both Bush and his father were members of the secretive Skull and Bones secret combination at Yale, but I do not know what can be accurately concluded from that.  Conspiracy theorists, who include many crackpots among their ranks, allege that their are deep, dark, connections between the Skull and Bones Society and the mysterious Illuminati and so forth, much of which may be wild, fanciful speculations for all I know.  That both Bushes have taken secret oaths to secret organizations is beyond dispute.  How well connected, powerful or extensive those hidden networks are is impossible to determine.  They may be involved in something no more sinister than any other Greek house fraternity on any American campus.  Or Lucifer accompanied by his Master Mahan may have administered oaths to them in connection with their membership in Skull and Bones.  There is no way to tell that I know.  Nor do I think it is important to know such information.

But with any secret society, there is a organizational culture just as we speak of the culture at Microsoft or the culture of Google.  We have our own culture in the Church.  And people get trained over time into thinking in certain ways that reflect those cultures.  When I suggest the possibility that Bush was commanded by his Gadianton bosses to throw the election to the Democrats, I have no way of knowing if his controllers have military like control over him or merely influence him in various ways as "advisers" always do.  In a Bishopric, the counselors do not command the Bishop.  But neither does the Bishop go about acting in complete independence from his counselors.  Depending upon the Bishop and the relationship that he has with his counselors, they can have less or greater influence on the Bishop's decisions.  I speculate that much the same could be said of George W. Bush and advisers he surrounds himself with in the White House.  These men are not just his employees, they helped him get into office.  He has respect for their opinions.  And it is entirely possible that they may belong to any number of private groups (secret combinations?) that he too belongs to.  It takes a lot of organization and money for any man to get into the White House.  But it is almost impossible for a person on the outside to understand in any detail the inner workings of such an organization or what its relationship may be to other organizations.  So much of that kind of organizing takes place behind closed doors in the proverbial "smoke filled rooms" as part of various "old boy networks."  How could anyone know everything that is involved in these "old boy networks?"  We have seen at various times how evil can get loose on one of these email lists.  Surely some of these old boy networks have a similar problem, wouldn't you think?  I'm pretty sure that being a Mormon from Utah, Ezra Taft Benson was excluded from some of these networks when he was in Washington during the Eisenhower days.  But he may have been aware of them.  Weren't we all aware of the various cliques that operated in our high schools when we attended public school?  And is it not possible to discern some of the evil when it is present if by no other means than by hearing what kind of ideas they promote and disparage?

I think that many conspiracy theorists go way off the deep end in their speculations about the internal workings of these various networks.  Beyond a certain point, I think it is an unhealthy, morbid fascination.  But to ignore or deny the existence of such networks seems equally foolish to me.  And where there is evidence of criminal wrong doing, I believe that responsible citizens should demand meaningful investigations to uncover these networks if they are in any way involved.  Unfortunately, it is hard to investigate corruption in high places because all too often the very networks that need investigating are involved in the process of choosing who will conduct the investigation.  We have seen this repeatedly in local situations where federal investigators have to be called in to gather evidence against corruption in country sheriff's offices, or in various city governments.  But what if there is such corruption in the federal government?  Who is going to investigate that?  The federal government?

People have to be righteous or they will see corruption grow out of control among themselves.  We don't even need to know about the Book of Mormon to realize that.  And the Book of Mormon makes it abundantly clear that when a nation becomes wicked, when it worship money more than God, these secret bands of criminals grow unchecked.  I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that there is a possibility that such groups could have gained sufficient power in our government to influence if not absolutely control our elections.  And when their influence becomes great enough to actually determine the outcome, where is our democracy?  Where are our free elections?

It would be downright stupid and naive to think that there are not well
connected, highly placed organizations of criminals who are attempting to
control the affairs of men for their benefit.  Of course, they shall fail.
The Plan of Salvation cannot be thwarted by any being.  Anyone, including
Bush and/or Clinton, could be unknowingly manipulated by these folks.  There
is even some diminishingly small chance that they are knowingly
participating, but I simply do not accept that.  Of course, I could be
wrong.

And I could be wrong too.  There is really no way to know without inside knowledge that we do not have nor can we get.  All we can do is study the fruits of evil and speculate as to its possible source.  Bush may be entirely innocent of knowingly cooperating with evil men.  He might even know he is cooperating with good men who are themselves misled by others.

It is clear to me, however, that Satan is actively promoting these groups
with all his might, mind and strength.  And Satan is no 98 lb weakling.
But, when we align ourselves with the Lord and with others who do the same,
Satan doesn't stand a chance (in the long run at least).

I agree completely.  The final victory is assured.  What grief and misery we will have to endure between now and then is yet uncertain.  I see a lot of grief headed down the road at us Americans because we have largely abandoned the principles upon which this nation was founded, many of which are embodied in a Constitution that we no longer interpret as it was originally intended.  President Benson said:

To all who have discerning eyes, it is apparent that the republican form of government established by our noble forefathers cannot long endure once fundamental principles are abandoned. Momentum is gathering for another conflict-a repetition of the crisis of two hundred years ago. This collision of ideas is worldwide. The issue is the same that precipitated the great premortal conflict-will men be free to determine their own course of action or must they be coerced.

We are fast approaching that moment prophesied by Joseph Smith when he said: "Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground, and when the Constitution is upon the brink of ruin, this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean, and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction" (Church Historian's Office, Salt Lake City, July 19, 1840). (The Constitution: A Heavenly Banner, pp. 27-28.)

He said this many years ago, and in my opinion we are seeing it fulfilled in our news reports today.  There are ways in which terrorism could be diminished and even defeated without establishing a police state.  But none of those ways are being discussed in the public forum today because they are not politically possible.  We have a drastic problem on our hands, one largely of our own making over a period of many years, and we are not willing or able to implement the drastic measures that would be needed to solve the problem.  Terrorism will be the end of our ancient liberties, and even the police state that we erect to combat it will be unable to put a stop to it.  What it will do is give the people an opportunity to witness government terror, something that has been all too common around the world throughout history.  Fortunately we faithful saints have refuge.  I feel really bad for the many Americans who don't.  I wish I could persuade them to join the Church.