Newb question: ZFS on daisy chained Thunderbolt drives

[Robert Piangozza]

Has anyone tried using or know if MacZFS or possibly any other ZFS setup would work with a Thunderbolt daisy chain? (e.g. a 4-bay RAID tower with a daisy chained SSD to keep ZiL and ARC Cache) Trying to find something to hook up to a MacbookPro for photo/video editing and backup. I would like to build my own since I have experience in that area and so I can keep the cost down. Any recommendations?

TIA,
Rob

[Jason Belec]

Works fine, have set it up in several client offices. I build each of the systems as the ones you can by are insanely priced. 

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Jason Belec

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[Robert Piangozza]

Ok good to hear Jason, thanks for the reply. Any recommendation on a build configuration? Should I build a standalone server with Thunderbolt or maybe get a DataTale SMART 4-Bay Thunderbolt™ RAID Enclosure? But then I'm having hard time finding a SSD Thunderbolt enclosure or or even a 2-bay.

Should I be concerned about extra load on my MacBook with ZFS and enclosures vs. a standalone server?

Thanks,

Rob

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[Dave Cottlehuber]

From: Robert Piangozza Robert Piangozza
Reply: zfs-...@googlegroups.com zfs-...@googlegroups.com
Date: 07. Oktober 2013 at 19:36:53
To: zfs-...@googlegroups.com zfs-...@googlegroups.com
Subject:  Re: [zfs-macos] Newb question: ZFS on daisy chained Thunderbolt drives

>
>Ok good to hear Jason, thanks for the reply. Any recommendation on a build
>configuration? Should I build a standalone server with Thunderbolt or maybe
>get a DataTale SMART 4-Bay Thunderbolt™ RAID Enclosure? But then I'm having
>hard time finding a SSD Thunderbolt enclosure or or even a 2-bay.
>
>Should I be concerned about extra load on my MacBook with ZFS and
>enclosures vs. a standalone server?
>
>Thanks,
>Rob
>
>
>On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 12:50 PM, Jason Belec wrote:
>
>> Works fine, have set it up in several client offices. I build each of the
>> systems as the ones you can by are insanely priced.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jason Belec
>> Sent from my iPad

Actually I'd love to see a "buy this config" listed on the FAQ pages. I don't even mind if its affiliate linked and supports one or more of the developers, or somehow get channeled for good intentions. Buying a 1000euro LaCie Big5 looks nice but seems a tremendous waste.

A+
Dave

[Jason Belec]

Yeah that's a ways off, this is still new and most companies are still in the fleecing stage.

Jason
Sent from my iPhone

[Jason Belec]

Just grab a bunch of drives and an enclosure if you like. A power supply. Now a card Addonics eSATA port multiplier for rack mount systems or several depending on size and configuration you want. Here in the mad science lab I have about 50TB in various configs. Now you need one of two options from Sonnettech, express card pro and card or echo express and card. You'll need some cables but that's should do. If you already have everything working as legacy then just swapping in the sonnettech thunderbolt tech would have you up and running. I have both approaches in use in real work locations. 

For specific questions, please ask. 

Jason

Sent from my iPhone

[Philip Robar]

Thunderbolt has been out for 2.5 years now, I think it's pretty clear that it's going to be like Firewire only worse, it's never going to leave fleecing state.

For instance, the Thunderbolt base for my external Seagate drive is still $150. That's just the base: no case, no drive, no cable!

The least expensive Thunderbolt option for 3.5" disks that I know of that even comes close to being reasonably priced is Delock 61971 Thunderbolt to SATA adaptor, which is akin to one of those SATA to USB dongles/boxes, and it's $120 w/o a cable. (http://www.synchrotech.com/products-thunderbolt/thunderbolt-sata-6gbps-hdd_ssd-drive-adaptor-with-ac-adapter-delock-61971.html)

The other option, if you can live with 2.5" disks, is to buy a Seagate GoFlex/Backup Plus Portable Thunderbolt adapter. ($86 at Amazon.)

If you're into DIY, here's a couple of articles on hacking the Seagate Thunderbolt bases:

http://camerarentalz.com/diy-thunderbolt-esata-adapter/

http://wolfgangtechnology.blogspot.com/2012/06/mac-with-seagate-thunderbolt-adapter.html

Phil

[Jason Belec]

Well it's Intel pushing Thunderbolt. Either way if it's your means of accessing external storage you'll have to figure an approach. A case has nothing to do with the tech, you can get a 12 drive case for that if you shop around. 

Jason

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[Raoul Callaghan]

I haven't stepped into Thunderbolt yet for storage...

I have a Belkin Dock that I'm playing with, but have discovered issues using it with DisplayPort monitors... (it flickers or simply doesn't pass through any video out)

And not a bras razoo from Belkin about it either...  grrr

I've also had 2 bad experiences with the LaCie 4TB 2big boxes too, where performance is in single digit MB/sec... (HFS or ZFS)

When you test each disk independently, > 100MB/sec, so I'm not all that keen to fully rely on TB just yet...

We did manage to fix the issue – somehow – as now one of the boxes is > 100MB/sec... but we can't explain what fixed it... 

We systematically swapped everything and tested: drives, cables, power, Energy Saver settings to no avail, and then the next day... it's fast...  most strange...

So do be careful and it would be wise to test first.

For further TB testing, I just bought a single Quo Computer mobo too...

It has 2 x TB ports on the board, FW 400 and FW 800 and being microATX, it might have some potential for some "all-in-one" solutions...

However, as time = money, I'm still rolling out SATA based enclosures using the following:

Zantec 4 x 2.5" bay enclosure that fits in a standard 5.25" housing for mirror Booting, ZIL and ARC.

RocketRaid 2744 (speaks for itself)

and whatever external drive bay that you're familiar/comfortable with that doesn't use Port Multipliers...

I too have been building my own, courtesy of Corsair's upgrade path for their Obsidian boxes, where I use their SATA backplanes...

Can anyone else recommend some storage boxes that are JBOD savvy, and may also accommodate the Zantec?

Cheers,

[Robert Piangozza]

Raoul,

I was just looking at that motherboard as well and after what Jason had posted I went searching for some drive bays and found the IcyDock 5-bay for internal tower use on newegg. Also some nice microATX cube sized cases. At the same time though I've come to the conclusion that I will wait till the new thunderbolt 2 comes out and see if any prices start dropping or when some new products come out like from Caldigit. 

Also did I read correctly that USB 3.0 is still a problem with ZFS configs or has that been resolved? I was also thinking about maybe getting something like the belkin dock or dual cards of a USB 3.0 PCIe card and putting that into what Jason had recommended, a Sonnet expansion box then connecting a bunch of USB 3.0 external raid drives to it.  Anyone experiment with that type of config or think it might work?

Rob

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[Jason Belec]

At this point USB anything is going to give you serious headaches. Just do some searching, check out the wiki.

I don't like most small enclosures as they are poorly designed and either the power supply or the control board are compromised. On my personal day to day system I have 5 drives in a metal chassis sitting over a power supply using that fan for cooling with an Addonics board mentioned earlier and a ESATA cable running to the Sonnet Express 34 pro card and SonnnetTech adapter with Thunderbolt. All modular, all parts easily and quickly replaced or upgraded. I also have as mentioned several large 12 drive enclosures I found on Newegg that I pulled the useless controller boards out and added an extra 12 drives with 6 Addonics boards and ESATA cables out. Very inexpensive approaches that I can guarantee work and work well under real world conditions (several locations).

Waiting for he new Thunderbolt is not really going to change much. All controllers have not upgraded to Mach throughput and most likely will not for some time. Macbook Air's are only at half of current Thunderbolt speeds and probably won't increase. Current systems won't go faster either, but will be functional. And of course new tech for the new speeds will cost more. It is best to just use Thunderbolt as intended and adapter and build whatever system you want that can be moved to any other adapter in the future by replacing a single module. Simpler and cost effective.

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[Robert Piangozza]

Maybe I'm thinking this through incorrectly or missing something, but with the Addonics board connected to 6Gb/s SATA and out of the eSATA, it looks like it can only do 3Gb/s. Isn't that sort of bottlenecking the true throughput of the 6Gb/s drives? or am I looking at the wrong controller?
http://www.addonics.com/products/st5.php

[Jason Belec]

Totally true per connection. However since I have a lot if legacy drives still it isn't an issue. You can find more powerful boards with a little Googling.   ZFS is not so much about speed but security of your data. 

Jason

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[Robert Piangozza]

I was trying to get both if I could. Like a RAID 10 config but with the added SSD drive(s) But you've certainly led me to the right stuff and I think I know what I need now, so thank you again Jason. I think I'm going to try the SAS route or a combination of something like this - http://www.addonics.com/products/ad2ems.php

Thanks,
Rob

[Jason Belec]

That'll do ya and the tech is solid. ;)

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Jason Belec

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[Raoul Callaghan]

Yeh, just what Jason said about TB2 and USB... 

I almost bought 28 of these suckers for the two xRaids I use for temp storage etc...

bumping the xRaids up to 28TB would be nice...

Can only replace the IDE disks with 1TB sata disks though, cos the firmware won't recognise anything greater...

Getting a bit on now in age, but I still use mine to push the odd snapshot to every now and then...

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[Raoul Callaghan]

Here's a nice TB box for those of us wanting to use ZIL/ARC...

It has four 2.5" drive-bays tucked inside...

Add a Rockraid 2744 for your spindles and a Silicon Image chipset to drive the four SSDs... all attached to an i7 MacMini and you're good to go.

Or, up the ante by whacking in four of Samsung's newest 1TB SSDs instead of using spindles, and throw in a  ioFX 420GB for the ZIL/ARC...

That would give Bonnie something to think about!

R.

[Daniel Becker]

And it’s only $1049 (empty, of course)!

[Jason Belec]

ROFL 

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Jason Belec

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[X Bytor]

On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 5:55 AM, Jason Belec <jason...@belecmartin.com> wrote:

ROFL 

Especially when you can get a 4 bay SansDisk with eSata controller for $60 at Newegg (sale and rebate).

[X Bytor]

Oops! I meant  Sans Digital TR4M+BNC.

[Raoul Callaghan]

$1k? that's not much if you want to connect a lappy to fibre/SAS/10GbE...

<tongue-in-cheek>Gee, from the comments, anyone would think you guys solely deal with PCs and 1% margins all day!</tongue-in-cheek>

[Daniel Bethe]

> Especially when you can get a 4 bay SansDisk with eSata controller for $60 at Newegg (sale and rebate).

As I understood it when I looked several months ago, the most economical mass storage for Thunderbolt was to connect such a device via an eSATA-to-thunderbolt adapter, which was about $100 or less.  If that's not worth of a mad science lab, I don't know what is, Jason.

[Jason Belec]

Oh dude trust me I have found deals. It just takes a little patience. The 12 bay enclosure was $134 on Newegg last year, it now is modded to 24 bay. Put in 2 power supplies and extra fans, pulled and tossed the useless backplanes so all drives can be connected to the controllers of choice (5 ports I've mentioned before, this time). All running into the 4 ESATA card from SonnetTech in the SonnetTech Thunderbolt card desktop box. Now that last bit is pricey to many, but you could swap in the the Express card connector(s) to get that price down. Other creative options continue to grow as people test new combinations.

I've also ordered all the new rack mount stuff from SonnetTech including the MacMini server enclosure to see how powerful a system can be built. Just because it's a 'mad' thing to do!

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Jason Belec

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