Waco
Aonghas P MacKenzie
remember who. Found it! (THE ADDRESS!)
--
Aonghas Mackenzie
an.b...@zetnet.co.uk
Pam Massey
from Aonghas P MacKenzie <an.b...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> I promised someone the address of the waco list - but I cannot
> remember who. Found it! (THE ADDRESS!)
It was Linda Casey IIRC..why not post it, there may be others who are
interested..
Pam
Aonghas P MacKenzie
from Clair Barrass <clair....@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> The message <199811302...@zetnet.co.uk>
> from Aonghas P MacKenzie <an.b...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> > I promised someone the address of the waco list - but I cannot
> > remember who. Found it! (THE ADDRESS!)
> And then you neglected to share it with us!
> Clair
Yesterday, having found the article and the e-mail address at the
foot, I tried to import it into a NI: CANNOT READ FROM DRIVE A.
Forced my way in and found that the sig had turned into a block of
x's. I shall now have to e-mail a friend in the States and hope he
still has the address. FWIW the list is kept by Carol Moore, author
of a book on the subject.
APM
Aonghas P MacKenzie
WACO: FEBRUARY 28, 1993
EVIDENCE OF DEADLY GUNFIRE FROM BATF HELICOPTERS
Compiled by Carol Moore, author, The Davidian Massacre, 9/97
Probably the most blatant cover-up regarding the Bureau
of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms' (BATF) February 28, 1993
raid on the Branch Davidian religious group near Waco, Texas
is the cover-up of the fact that agents shot from helicopters,
killing as many as four Davidians. This act is unprecedented
in American law enforcement. Had it not been so successfully
covered up by federal agencies, Congress and the press, there
would have been a public outcry leading to prosecution and
imprisonment of BATF Agents.
During a May, 1995 televised debate, Carol Moore, author
of the book The Davidian Massacre, asked former BATF Director
Stephen E. Higgins, who approved the raid, if BATF agents
should be charged with murder should evidence of lethal firing
be indicated. He replied, "Absolutely. If they fire at
someone who was not firing at them or pointing a weapon at
them it would absolutely be murder." Mr. Higgins, like the
rest of the federal establishment, refuses to admit these
murders were in fact committed.
Many believe federal agents subsequently sabotaged
negotiations and conducted a vicious April 19, 1993 assault
which burned Mount Carmel to the ground in order to destroy
bullet hole evidence of helicopter gunfire, as well as
evidence of indiscriminate gunfire from the ground. (Davidian
survivor David Thibodeau claims firing from helicopters left
100 bullet holes in the walls and roofs. And it is well known
that one of the double front doors, the one containing
evidence BATF shot first and furiously, was never found after
the fire.)
Below is substantial evidence, presented in rough
chronological order, that BATF agents shot from at least one
of the three helicopters which approached Mount Carmel at the
beginning of the BATF raid. (Two helicopters were small
observation craft containing National Guard pilots and one
BATF agent; the third was a large Blackhawk containing two
National Guard pilots and approximately eight BATF agents.)
** Discussions of Using Helicopter Gunfire as a Diversion
One document indicating agents considered using such
gunfire was found among thousands turned over to Congress. A
handwritten note by some unknown Treasury Department review
official who had interviewed BATF agents read: "HCs
[helicopters] as a diversion. Simultaneous gunfire. Worked
in Seattle. Three to four hundred meters from boundary.
Hover. Practiced at Hood." (Assumedly BATF agents practiced
this maneuver at Fort Hood, where they trained for the raid.)
** Questionable Helicopter Pilot Testimony
At trial three National Guard helicopter pilots denied
the helicopters had circled Mount Carmel before the beginning
of the raid, as if scoping it out for targets. However,
KWTX-TV cameraman Dan Mulloney and reporter John McLemore testified
they saw the helicopters do just that. This cast doubt on the
guardsmens' testimony that there had been no shooting from the
helicopters.
** Agent Admitted Agents Were Armed and Willing to Fire
During the House Waco hearings, BATF agent Davy Aguilera,
who was in the Blackhawk helicopter, revealed that BATF agents
in that aircraft had had their weapons loaded during the raid.
He also disclosed agents had been told they would be permitted
to fire in self-defense. When asked if any agents had fired,
Aguilera answered, "No." Raid co-commander Phillip Chojnacki
responded to the same question with, "Not to my knowledge."
Representative Melvin Watt then submitted "for the record the
statements of a number of individuals who were actually on the
helicopters who deny that they fired at any point." However,
these were merely statements of National Guard helicopter
pilots, not BATF agents.
** Agent Admitted Agents Might Have Fired
BATF audio tapes reveal that immediately after the
gunfight, BATF agent James Cavanaugh, a temporary negotiator,
argued by telephone with David Koresh about whether there was
firing from the helicopters. Cavanaugh then admitted, "I'm
not debating the fact that there might have been fire from the
helicopters but what I'm telling you is there were no mounted
guns, no outside mounted guns, on those helicopters."
** Government Claims the Helicopters Took Davidian Gunfire
BATF agents and National Guard pilots claim that when the
helicopters got within 350 meters of the building, they were
fired upon and forced back. Photographs show several holes in
the aircraft. If the Davidians did indeed fire at the
helicopters--before or after BATF agents fired--Aguilera's
testimony makes it clear agents felt they did have a right to
fire back. And it is likely they did so.
** BATF Video Shows Helicopter Diving Towards Building
A BATF agent took video footage from the Blackhawk
helicopter which clearly shows the Blackhawk diving down
towards the back of the building--and that it is clearly
closer than 350 meters. The video clip ends abruptly at that
point. A simple projection of the speed and trajectory of the
helicopter's approach suggests it did fly over the swimming
pool and building, as Davidians allege below. The National
Guard pilot of the Blackhawk did admit at trial that the
helicopter flew as low as 50 feet off the ground.
Also, during this approach several sounds like gunfire
can clearly be heard on the BATF video. A civil suit attorney
calculates that these sounds only could have come from the
helicopter. (The BATF video reveals that a second video was
taken by BATF agent Ted Royster. BATF claims this is
Royster's personal video tape and refuses to release it,
claiming it contains no incriminating material.)
** KWTX-TV Video Shows Helicopter Shoot Davidian on the
Watertower
One of two KWTX-TV cameramen shot video from the road
southwest of Mount Carmel. As seen in the movie "Waco: The
Rules of Engagement," a helicopter southwest of the building
and water tower veers back towards them just as movement from
what is evidently a person is seen on top of the tower.
Seconds later, the individual disappears, very possibly shot
by agents in the helicopter.
** KWTX-TV Video Shows Shots Fired From Sky
Another KWTX-TV cameraman followed BATF agents onto the
grounds of Mount Carmel. His camera also caught footage of
the helicopter above veering back. Soon after, he took the
often shown video of an agent being shot at through the wall
of the second story room. This shot also displays evidence
that at least four bullets were fired from above just two to
three minutes into the raid. The sounds of aircraft overhead
can be heard. Bullet holes can be seen appearing in the roof
and eaves of the building and the projected trajectory of the
bullets appears much too steep to have come from the four
story tower, from which some Davidians were firing.
** Davidians Complained About Firing to 9-1-1 Operators
Early in the raid, in a phone call to 9-1-1, now-deceased
Davidian Wayne Martin cries out: "Another chopper with more
people; more guns going off. They're firing. That's them, not
us." Now-deceased Steve Schneider adds, "There's a chopper
with more of them. Another chopper with more people and more
guns going off. Here they come!" In the next hours Martin
warns repeatedly that BATF should keep helicopters at a
distance.
** Davidians Complained About Helicopter Gunfire On
Negotiation Tapes
During the 51 day siege, David Koresh and Steve Schneider
insisted to FBI negotiators that BATF agents had shot from the
helicopters and killed Davidians. They repeatedly claimed
that FBI agents wanted to burn Mount Carmel to destroy the
evidence of this and other lethal firing.
Aonghas P MacKenzie
** Thirteen Davidian Survivors Claim They Saw Firing or
Evidence of Firing
Marjorie Thomas testified under oath at trial that she
and two other women near their third floor window saw a
helicopter approaching the building with a person hanging out.
As the helicopter drew nearer, several bullets came through
the window, flying over the womens' heads.
Kathryn Schroeder testified under oath at trial that she
saw bullet holes in the ceiling of the four story tower, holes
that could only have been made from shooting from the sky.
Kevin Whitecliff stated at allocution before sentencing:
"There were three or four helicopters buzzing around shooting
at people. I thought I was going to die."
Rita Riddle told reporters in March, 1993, "I heard them
spraying the building when they went over," and stated in a
signed affidavit that she saw a bullet come down through the
ceiling from the sky.
Clive Doyle has testified before Congress and written in
an affidavit that Winston Blake was killed from a bullet that,
from the trajectory through the wall, only could have come
from a helicopter. (Jaime Castillo in a statement to Texas
Rangers and David Thibodeau before Congress and in a signed
affidavit make the same claim.) Doyle also states that he
himself saw a helicopter directly above the swimming pool.
Renos Avraam stated at allocution that BATF came in "with
helicopters blazing. Davy Aguilera, he was firing one of
them. He ain't going to deny it. Helicopters blazing."
(Both Clive Doyle and David Thibodeau have testified that
Avraam told them he was in the back of the building and saw
the firing himself.)
Derek Lovelock told attorney Jack Zimmermann that he
heard helicopters and saw bullets come down through the
ceiling of the first floor, one story cafeteria at the back of
the building.
Catherine Matteson claims that one or more helicopters
circled the building, firing at both the front and the back,
and that she had to fall to the floor to avoid the bullets
coming through the roof.
Annetta Richards claims she saw bullets come down from
above as the helicopters were flying overhead.
Gladys Ottman makes claims similar to those of Matteson
and Richards.
Davidian Child: Psychologist Bruce D. Perry, who
interviewed Davidian children who left Mount Carmel after the
raid, described a child drawing a picture of a house beneath
a rainbow. The child put bullet holes in the roof of the four
story tower.
** Attorneys Saw Evidence of Firing From Helicopters
Davidian attorneys Dick DeGuerin and Jack Zimmermann, who
visited Mount Carmel during the siege, have testified under
oath before Congress, at trial and in affidavits that there
were numerous bullet holes that obviously came from the sky in
the four story tower and in upper story walls. Zimmerman is
a former Army officer.
** Davidians Claim Helicopter Gunfire Killed Four
Winston Blake, a black from England, was killed instantly
by one bullet in the head as he sat on his bed. Survivors say
the bullet entered the room's wall at a downward trajectory
and only could have come from a helicopter. The American
coroner claimed Blake had been shot at close range; the
Manchester, England coroner could find no such evidence. The
discrepancy sparked an English police investigation. (The
government claimed other Davidians killed Blake.)
Jaydean Wendell, an Asian-American, was killed instantly
by one shot through the head as she lay in bed. Attorney Jack
Zimmermann said he saw bullet holes by the "upper bunk wall"
going in the direction of a pool of blood on the bed. (Two
Davidian prosecution witnesses testified that Wendell might
have been shooting a gun at the time of her death.)
Peter Gent, an Australian, was killed instantly by a shot
to the heart. Davidians assert he was cleaning the inside of
the water tower, heard the commotion, stuck his head out to
see what was going on, and was shot by an agent in a
helicopter. (A BATF agent on the ground claimed he shot an
armed man on the water tower.)
Peter Hipsman, an American, probably was shooting from
the fourth floor when he was shot in the chest and arm. The
medical examiner revealed that the shots traveled from left to
right, as if he was shot from the sky. Believing federal
agents meant to kill them all, he allowed another Davidian to
end his life.
Two other Davidians died February 28, 1993. David
Koresh's father-in-law Perry Jones was standing behind Koresh
when he opened the front door and tried to talk and cooperate
with attacking federal agents. Jones was mortally wounded in
the stomach as agents opened fire on the two unarmed men and
committed suicide. And Michael Schroeder was ambushed and
killed by federal agents as he approached Mount Carmel on foot
later that day. Four BATF agents shooting at the Davidians
were killed by defensive gunfire. There is evidence that at
least one agent was wounded by BATF friendly fire. Missing
bullets make it difficult to prove if others were injured or
even killed by such fire.
The Treasury and Justice Departments, Congress and the
press have ignored or suppressed this overwhelming evidence of
lethal helicopter gunfire. However, jurors in the 1.5 billion
dollar Davidian civil suits, which allege such firing, may
take it more seriously. Attorneys will produce ample evidence
like that above during the civil trial.
For more information
And this is the bit which went AWOL!
Stephen Brown
from Aonghas P MacKenzie <an.b...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> I promised someone the address of the waco list - but I cannot
> remember who. Found it! (THE ADDRESS!)
O.k. so i am thick - whats the waco list?
BB Wargames, purveyers of used Boardgames, AFV`s, Hinton Hunt 20mm
figs, and Kits.
We also pay cash, or trade any of the above.
bbwar...@zetnet.co.uk users.zetnet.co.uk/bbwargames
Carol...@my-dejanews.com
or related materials a month, email me:
Carol...@kreative.net
and check out my web page
http://www.kreative.net/carolmoore/davidian-massacre.html
Carol Moore in D.C.
----------------------------------------
In article <199812012...@zetnet.co.uk>,
Aonghas P MacKenzie <an.b...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> The message <199812011...@zetnet.co.uk>
> from Clair Barrass <clair....@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
>
> > The message <199811302...@zetnet.co.uk>
> > from Aonghas P MacKenzie <an.b...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
>
> > > I promised someone the address of the waco list - but I cannot
> > > remember who. Found it! (THE ADDRESS!)
>
> > And then you neglected to share it with us!
>
> > Clair
>
> Yesterday, having found the article and the e-mail address at the
> foot, I tried to import it into a NI: CANNOT READ FROM DRIVE A.
>
> Forced my way in and found that the sig had turned into a block of
> x's. I shall now have to e-mail a friend in the States and hope he
> still has the address. FWIW the list is kept by Carol Moore, author
> of a book on the subject.
>
> APM
>
>
--
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
murph...@my-dejanews.com
More on the Waco incident:
http://www.eclectica.org/v2n6/barrett_justice.html
M. Rood
--
A few observations and much reasoning lead to error;
many observations and a little reasoning to truth.
Eric H-T
says...
>
> O.k. so i am thick - whats the waco list?
>
>
--
Bye for now, Eric.
ICQ uin >> 2764113
Fidonet >> 2:256/651.26
HotMail >> eh...@hotmail.com
Freeserve >> er...@htuk.freeserve.co.uk
Mailto >> eric.he...@zetnet.co.uk
Frances Patricia Amas
from eric.he...@zetnet.co.uk (Eric H-T) contains these words:
> In article <199812011...@zetnet.co.uk>, ste...@zetnet.co.uk
> says...
> >
> > O.k. so i am thick - whats the waco list?
> >
> >
> I think it should be wacko list...... ;-)
> --
> Bye for now, Eric.
Eric, that wasn't nice! Waco, in Texas, was the scene of a shoot-out
some years back between the Branch Davidian cult and the FBI
(Alcohol, tobacco and something branch - firearms, I think) which
ended with what was considered at the time to be mass suicide, and
someone within the sect setting fire to the place. It is now being
presented by some elements of the media as murder by the forces
attempting entry.
Who knows. I don't. I read a book about the Branch Davidian types
and a thoroughly unsavoury bunch they seemed.
--
Fran
ja...@zetnet.co.uk
Aonghas P MacKenzie
from Stephen Brown <ste...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> > I promised someone the address of the waco list - but I cannot
> > remember who. Found it! (THE ADDRESS!)
> O.k. so i am thick - whats the waco list?
> --
> ste...@zetnet.co.uk
Mailing list with updates on the legal moves by or against the
participants on both sides of the Waco siege. (Branch Davidian Sect
gets slaughtered by massive onslaught of armoured vehicles and
helicopter gunships.)
APM
Martin Briscoe
from Frances Patricia Amas <ja...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> Eric, that wasn't nice! Waco, in Texas, was the scene of a shoot-out
> some years back between the Branch Davidian cult and the FBI
> (Alcohol, tobacco and something branch - firearms, I think) which
> ended with what was considered at the time to be mass suicide, and
> someone within the sect setting fire to the place. It is now being
> presented by some elements of the media as murder by the forces
> attempting entry.
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms - they are part of the Dept
of the Treasury. I think the FBI are part of Dept of "Justice".
Didn't the FBI previously shoot an unarmed woman dead outside her
log-cabin in Montana(??) whilst she had a young baby in her arms.
Don't think anyone was every prosecuted for that murder either.
> Who knows. I don't. I read a book about the Branch Davidian types
> and a thoroughly unsavoury bunch they seemed.
I seem to remember at the time that the local sheriff got on with
them OK. Some of the accusations against them seemed very dubious
and probably exaggerated to justify the FBI's action.
Martin
Gerald L R Stubbs
from Frances Patricia Amas <ja...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> Who knows. I don't. I read a book about the Branch Davidian types
> and a thoroughly unsavoury bunch they seemed.
> Fran
I'm unsavoury, but I don't see why that should
give anyone an excuse to send armed helicopters
after me.
Stubbsy stu...@zetnet.co.uk
<:)(((((><<
Eric H-T
>
> Eric, that wasn't nice! Waco, in Texas, was the scene of a shoot-out
> some years back
>
--
Bye for now, Eric.
ICQ uin >> 2764113
Frances Patricia Amas
from Gerald L R Stubbs <stu...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> I'm unsavoury, but I don't see why that should
> give anyone an excuse to send armed helicopters
> after me.
> Stubbsy stu...@zetnet.co.uk
>
Oh, Stubbsy, I wouldn't have said "unsavoury" exactly.
--
Fran
ja...@zetnet.co.uk
Frances Patricia Amas
from eric.he...@zetnet.co.uk (Eric H-T) contains these words:
> In article <199812022...@zetnet.co.uk>, ja...@zetnet.co.uk says...
> >
> > Eric, that wasn't nice! Waco, in Texas, was the scene of a shoot-out
> > some years back
> >
> I knew quite well what it was Fran, hence...wacko
> --
> Bye for now, Eric.
Rather thought you did!
--
Fran
ja...@zetnet.co.uk
Frances Patricia Amas
from Martin Briscoe <martin....@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms - they are part of the Dept
> of the Treasury. I think the FBI are part of Dept of "Justice".
Thank you for that.
> Didn't the FBI previously shoot an unarmed woman dead outside her
> log-cabin in Montana(??) whilst she had a young baby in her arms.
> Don't think anyone was every prosecuted for that murder either.
Yes. She was a member of another alleged sect.
> > Who knows. I don't. I read a book about the Branch Davidian types
> > and a thoroughly unsavoury bunch they seemed.
> I seem to remember at the time that the local sheriff got on with
> them OK. Some of the accusations against them seemed very dubious
> and probably exaggerated to justify the FBI's action.
> Martin
They had some pretty unpleasant ideas, though.
--
Fran
ja...@zetnet.co.uk
Gerald L R Stubbs
> from Gerald L R Stubbs <stu...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> > I'm unsavoury, but I don't see why that should
> > give anyone an excuse to send armed helicopters
> > after me.
> > Stubbsy
> Oh, Stubbsy, I wouldn't have said "unsavoury" exactly.
> Fran
I see; what would you have said, exactly?
Stubbsy stu...@zetnet.co.uk
<:)(((((><<
Aonghas P MacKenzie
from Gerald L R Stubbs <stu...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> I see; what would you have said, exactly?
>
> Stubbsy stu...@zetnet.co.uk
>
> <:)(((((><<
Are you angling for compliments?
=p__, =p__, =p__,
( / ( / ( /
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Jackson
from Aonghas P MacKenzie <an.b...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> =p__, =p__, =p__,
> ( / ( / ( /
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
. . .racking my brains to think of the name for a boat with three
scullers! Double for two, quad for four, oct for eight . . .
They can't be rowers 'cos the boat would go round in circles. ;-)
--
Dave
Frodsham
... He's not dead, Jim, he's just metabolically challenged.
Frances Patricia Amas
from Gerald L R Stubbs <stu...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> > > I'm unsavoury, but I don't see why that should
> > > give anyone an excuse to send armed helicopters
> > > after me.
> > > Stubbsy
> > Oh, Stubbsy, I wouldn't have said "unsavoury" exactly.
> > Fran
> I see; what would you have said, exactly?
>
> Stubbsy stu...@zetnet.co.uk
>
Well, I've never found anything you've said to be unsavoury -
pig-headed, stubborn, out-of-date dinosaur-ish (I could go on but I
won't), but definitely not unsavoury :-)))).
--
Fran
ja...@zetnet.co.uk
Aonghas P MacKenzie
from David Jackson <dija...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> The message <199812040...@zetnet.co.uk>
> from Aonghas P MacKenzie <an.b...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> > Quack =p__, Quack =p__, Quack =p__,
> > ( / ( / ( /
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> . . .racking my brains to think of the name for a boat with three
> scullers! Double for two, quad for four, oct for eight . . .
> They can't be rowers 'cos the boat would go round in circles. ;-)
> --
> Dave
> Frodsham
> ... He's not dead, Jim, he's just metabolically challenged.
/| /| /|
v( | v( | v( |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Marion Pearcey
from Gerald L R Stubbs <stu...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> The message <199812022...@zetnet.co.uk>
> from Frances Patricia Amas <ja...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> > Who knows. I don't. I read a book about the Branch Davidian types
> > and a thoroughly unsavoury bunch they seemed.
> > Fran
> I'm unsavoury, but I don't see why that should
> give anyone an excuse to send armed helicopters
> after me.
> Stubbsy stu...@zetnet.co.uk
>
> <:)(((((><<
When you say unsavoury do you mean around the armpits and such, or
generally?
--
Marion
do...@zetnet.co.uk
Christa
from Frances Patricia Amas <ja...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> Who knows. I don't. I read a book about the Branch Davidian types
> and a thoroughly unsavoury bunch they seemed.
> --
> Fran
> ja...@zetnet.co.uk
Wasn't their leader David Koresh? I remember listening to a man on
the television (British) who had lost his entire family at Waco. Wife
and children. He holds no malice though. There was nothing he could
do to stop them going to join the Branch Davidians...free-will etc.
He has since remarried and is making a new life for himself.
Christa
Frances Patricia Amas
from Christa <frees...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> Wasn't their leader David Koresh? I remember listening to a man on
> the television (British) who had lost his entire family at Waco. Wife
> and children. He holds no malice though. There was nothing he could
> do to stop them going to join the Branch Davidians...free-will etc.
> He has since remarried and is making a new life for himself.
> Christa
That's the one! I couldn't remember his surname.
--
Fran
ja...@zetnet.co.uk
David Jackson
from Aonghas P MacKenzie <an.b...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> > > Quack =p__, Quack =p__, Quack =p__,
> > > ( / ( / ( /
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I know what they were _meant_ to be . . . (I'm not totally quackers - yet)
. . . but my train of thought moved on because No2 son is looking
for a rowing sig which is only 4 lines, and I was planning to send
him this one, slightly modified.
My question remains unanswered . . .
Aonghas P MacKenzie
WACO UPDATE: December 3, 1998
Carol Moore
Author, The Davidian Massacre
Member, Committee for Waco Justice
WACO: RULES OF ENGAGEMENT ON HBO DECEMBER 6
The Academy Award nominated film “Waco: Rules of Engagement”
will
air Sunday, Dec. 6, at 7:30 E/PT, on HBO Signature cable channel. In
most
markets, if it is available, it is listed as HBO3, but the designation
may vary
with location. For more information on the movie, or to order the
video, go
to: http://www.waco93.com
DECEMBER 10 NEW COURT DATE FOR MOUNT CARMEL
PROPERTY
After five years of legal wrangling and a number of postponed court
dates, Davidian survivors are awaiting a December 10, 1998 court date
regarding the Mount Carmel property. The local judge will decide who
technically is the Branch Davidian Association that owns Mount Carmel
Surviving followers of David Koresh, some of whom lived there for
many years, or Amo Roden, former common-law wife of former Davidian
leader George Roden. Meanwhile another pre-Koresh former member, Doug
Mitchell, suddenly showed up last winter and made his own claim to the
property. Over the last five years survivors who do have the strongest
legal claim--have paid taxes on the land, planted 82 memorial trees
there and constructed a museum. The Davidians themselves have less
and less faith in the judicial system. Federal Judge Walter J. Smith
currently is
refusing to take action regarding the Davidian prisoners’ appeals and
the civil suits.
DAVIDIAN APPEALS BACK BEFORE 5TH CIRCUIT
After a year of procrastination and delay by the office of federal Judge
Walter J. Smith, Davidian appeals attorneys finally obtained the written
order and transcripts of the September, 1997 Court hearing where Smith
reimposed long sentences on six Davidian prisoners. A copy of
prisoner Jaime Castillo’s brief, filed by his attorney Steve
Halbrook, can be found at:
http://www.kreative.net/carolmoore/waco-brief-10-98.html (The
Government has til December 21st to file its reply and then the
Davidians will have an opportunity to reply to the government.) It
probably will be a good six months before the Appeals Court makes a
decision on the case. If they do not find in favor of the Davidians,
they will appeal to the Supreme Court. For complete information on
the trial and appeals go to:
http://www.kreative.net/carolmoore/waco-trial.html
MORE SMALL VICTORIES ON BATF VIDEO FOIA REQUESTS
Attorney David Hardy, who is helping with Freedom of Information Act
suits for Branch Davidian civil suits against federal agents and
officials, is continuing to have small victories in his fight to get
information from the Treasury and Justice Departments. He has had to
go to court to get some of the most sensitive and critical information.
In May he convinced a judge to consider requiring ATF to bring forth
photographs stored in the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City. But ATF
managed to convince the judge that Oklahoma City wasn’t an official
depository; an agent named as a source of such photos presented an
affidavit that he had never seen them. So the judge ruled an
"adequate" search had been done.
Recently Hardy participated in oral arguments in his second FOIA suit
against the Justice Department and the FBI. He is still trying to track
down BATF videos and infrared videos taken February 28, 1993 and then
given to the FBI. As has long been rumored, one video which Hardy
seeks may contain footage of David Koresh standing at the front door,
trying to persuade BATF agents to stop their attack and talk with
him. Civil suit attorneys received a rough photograph taken from
video in a round-a-bout fashion a while back. It certainly increased
their eagerness to get a hold of the full footage.
The Justice Department tried to confuse the issue by arguing Hardy had
petitioned the wrong "component" of the Justice Department, but the
Judge *an honest and fair one* told them to quit playing games and turn
over the requested materials. He also insisted the FBI process the request
as if it had been submitted July 10. Hardy writes this gives him two
advantages: he’s got four month's jump on a relatively simple request
and he is enforcing a court order, which gives some tactical
advantages. As Hardy continues his good work, the government may yet
have to give up this evidence of crimes against citizens. Check out
Hardy’s excellent web site at: http://www.indirect.com/www/dhardy/
COURT DISMISSES SIEGE-RELATED PRESS SUIT
Television reporter John McLemore, who followed BATF cattle trucks
up the driveway in the February 28, 1993 raid against the Branch
Davidians, sued another television station for libel. This is because
its reporter Valerie Williams reported that federal agents claimed
Waco reporters were hiding in trees at Mount Carmel before the attack
began, tipping off the Davidians. Williams' story repeated an
allegation told to ABC's "Night Line" program by a Houston Chronicle reporter.
In late September, 1998 the Texas Supreme Court decided that the
Waco reporter had no case because McLemore was a "public figure," one who
"clearly voluntarily interjected himself into the controversy" over why
the raid failed and portrayed himself to other reporters as a hero by
risking being shot to assist wounded federal agents. Being deemed a
public figure, McLemore would have to prove that WFAA's reporter knew
what she reported was false or that she was reckless about whether it was true.
WACO ACTIVISTS AT IMPEACH RALLY
On October 31 2,500 people protested on the Mall in Washington, D.C.
for the impeachment of President Bill Clinton. Committee for Waco Justice
members were there to remind the crowd of Clinton’s greatest crime:
permitting federal agents to murder 82 Davidians and then helping obstruct
justice by covering up those crimes. Photos of the rally are at:
http://www.kreative.net/carolmoore/10-31-98-photos.html
Free Republic, which hosted the first rally, will sponsor another on
the Capitol Steps Saturday, December 5th starting at 10:00 a.m. For more
information contact: Connie Hair Free Republic Director of Media Relations
E-mail: c...@e-orchard.com or go to http://www.freerepublic.com
MY VISIT TO THE NATIONAL HOLOCAUST MUSEUM
In early July I visited the National Holocaust Museum in Washington,
D.C., where I live. It was something I’d been meaning to do for a few
years. I was motivated, in part, by my disgust with Carol Valentine’s
Holocaust Museum and her recent Holocaust denial rants on usenet.
Under the guise of being an *investigator,* Ms. Valentine has now
called *both* the Davidian survivors of Mount Carmel and the Jewish
survivors of Nazi massacre liars and fabricators.
While Valentine charges the original BATF attack was a grand federal
scheme to kill all the Davidians, she questions whether the Nazis really
meant to kill Jews at all. She dismisses groups like Jews for Preservation
Firearms Ownership as "phonies" and "designated critics," i.e., government
operatives. While a dispassionate investigator might find anomalies
in facts about both Waco and the Holocaust, it is the allegations of
massive fabrication which brand Ms. Valentine a crackpot with some
strange hidden agenda.
The national Holocaust Museum presented ample evidence of Nazi
crimes against political and religious activists and resisters, gypsies, the
disabled, homosexuals, as well as those against Jews. The museum’s
decor of brick, grey metal and unpainted wood simulates concentration camp
architecture. The three floors of the permanent exhibit detail in
video, audio and artifacts the rise of the Nazis, the massacres, the
concentration camps and the liberation of the few survivors. One
glass wall of a hallway lists the names of hundreds of predominantly
Jewish communities and towns decimated by the Nazi’s. The Nazi’s
committed hundreds of *Wacos* against Jews alone. (And destroyed
thousands of other villages on their march through Eastern Europe and
the Soviet Union.)
I was most strongly reminded of Waco at the end of the 15 minute
movie that described the museum’s exhibits. In the final scene an American
flag flies as the commentator says something like, _And_Americans_must
make_sure_that_something_like_this_never_happens_here_in_America_or_
anywhere_again._ Well, I hadn’t intended to do so, but I
spontaneously called out, _No_More_Wacos._ I’m sure a few of the
other visitors understood my concern and that it was in the spirit of
the Museum and not against it.
Y2K, MARTIAL LAW AND WACO
There have been a number of developments over the last several months
that have made citizens fear for their freedom especially should their
be any declaration of national emergency or martial law due to year 2000
computer problem emergencies. Considering that Congress and the
Courts let the federal agents and officials get away with the mass
murder of civilians at Waco, many citizens remain very concerned.
Below is an article by Y2K expert and middle-of-the-road alarmist Jim
Lord which discusses some of the related possibilities. His daily
column can be obtained from: http://y2ktimebomb.com/Tip/Lord/
-----------------
Is Y2K a National Emergency? By Jim Lord November 16, 1998
A recent report (Oct 8, 1998) from Congressman
Steven Horn's Subcommittee on Government
Management, Information and Technology provides a
detailed status of where the US Federal Government
and the nation stand vis-à-vis the Year 2000
Computing Problem. In the report, Congressman Horn
makes these statements:
"It is now clear that a large number of Federal computing systems will
simply not be prepared for January 2000. At the same time, the
utilities industry, the financial services industry, the
telecommunications industry, vital modes of transportation, and other
indispensable industrial sectors are all at risk."
"It is time for the President to declare that the Year 2000 Problem is a
National Priority. If sufficient progress is not made by an intermediate
deadline, he may even need to escalate the Year 2000 Problem to a
National Emergency." (my emphasis)
Could the Year 2000 Computing Crisis be used as justification for the
declaration of a national emergency? What is a national emergency
and what legal mechanism exists for its declaration? These are
delicate questions because many ultra-conservative political
organizations believe the government might use the imposition of a
national emergency for sinister purposes. Many Internet sites operated
by these groups discuss various Presidential Executive Orders that are
construed to give the President extraordinary powers to impose strict
control over virtually all aspects of the American society and economy.
For this reason, the subject demands specific, hard documentation
instead of opinion, interpretation or speculation. To begin, most of
these sites quote a multitude of Executive Orders (10998 and 11490
for example) that are no longer in force. A visit to the National
Records and Archives Administration web site provides a historical
record of all Executive Orders as well as their current status as
found in the Federal Register.
The current, in-force Executive Order (EO) governing the subject
supersedes all those above. It is EO 12656, "Assignment of
Emergency Preparedness Responsibilities," signed by Ronald Reagan
on November 18, 1988. The official document appeared in the Federal
Register, Volume 53. No. 228 on November 23, 1988
For a copy of this document, as well as EO 12472, which governs
telecommunications, visit the National Communications System (NCS)
website
The Preamble of EO 12656, in Section 101(a) defines a "national
security emergency" as,
"... any occurrence, including natural disaster, military attack,
technological emergency, (my emphasis) or other emergency, that
seriously degrades or seriously threatens the national security of the
United States."
This statement seems to clearly indicate the President could use Y2K
(should it cause civil disorder or widespread infrastructure failures,
for example) to justify the declaration of a national emergency. So, what
happens if he chooses this course of action? Here is a sampling of the
language used in these directives.
"(Provide for the) emergency management and control of civil
transportation resources and systems, including privately owned
automobiles, (my emphasis) urban mass transit (and) inter-modal
transportation systems." (EO 12656)
"Develop national plans to set priorities and allocate (my emphasis)
health, mental health, and medical services resources among civilian
and military claimants." (EO 12656)
"(Develop) plans for the management, control, and allocation (my
emphasis) of all usable waters from all sources within the jurisdiction
of the United States." (EO 12656)
"Develop plans and issue guidance to ensure effective use of civilian
work force resources during national security emergencies." (EO
12656)
"Develop plans for the operation of privately owned (my emphasis)
railroads, motor carriers, inland waterway transportation systems and
public storage facilities and services in national security
emergencies." (EO 12656)
"(Develop plans for) the mobilization and use of the Nation's
commercial, government and privately owned telecommunications
resources (my emphasis) in order to meet national security or
emergency preparedness requirements." (EO 12472)
As can be readily seen, these executive orders effectively empower the
President to nationalize (and thus, control) all businesses and even
some personal property. Congress has no role in the declaration itself
nor is it necessary for them to give approval. After six months, they
may review the action.
Many conservative political analysts believe executive orders are
unconstitutional at their core but the orders have been used
continuously since Abraham Lincoln's presidency. I suspect, therefore,
the Supreme Court would uphold the constitutionality of the system if it
were brought before the court.
To put the above into a Y2K context, consider the following quote from
the October 27, 1998 "Globe and Mail" newspaper (Toronto and
Ottawa),
"The Canadian Armed Forces have been ordered to spend the next
14 months preparing for what could be their biggest peacetime
deployment - tens of thousands of troops spread across the country
and frigates standing by in major ports - in case computer problems
in 2000 bring civil chaos."
"Rules for the use of force are being drafted should soldiers have to
make arrests or back up police dealing with riots and looting."
Will there be a declaration of a national security emergency in the
United States? Well, Congress has certainly sent an encouraging
message and our neighbors to the north have been most forthcoming
about their plans. I would say the chances are very high the same will
be done here. I suspect that the "spooks" in the basement of the
Pentagon are well along in their plans for a mobilization of our own
troops in preparation for Y2K riots and disturbances. Will the plans be
made public? Probably not. It seems to be the policy of the Clinton
Administration to keep the lid on Y2K to prevent panic. I guess I would
ask this question.
Has there been panic in Canada?
What we face here is the great policy debate of Y2K. Should the
government tell us the truth about Y2K and their plans for management
of the crisis? If they do, can we take it in stride without panic? It
seems that the government believes, if we know the truth, we will
crash the banking system and the stock market. And then burn down the cities, I
suppose. I would propose, however, the best way to prevent these
things from happening is to let people act rationally on the basis of
knowledge rather than irrationally based on suspicion and rumor.
In "Roll Call," online, Senator Robert Bennett said, not long ago, "The
size and scope of the Y2K crisis is still unknown. What is known is that
it has the potential to be a major national disaster. We can hope for
the best, but we must not rule out preparation for the worst."
That statement concisely describes what the Y2K policy of this nation
should be. The longer we delay the preparations called for above, the
more severe will be the results if Y2K does turn out badly. The "happy
face" put on by John Koskinen and the avoidance of the Y2K issue by
Bill Clinton, Al Gore and the congressional leadership is destructive.
It prolongs the denial that is still so prevalent across the country.
At this point, the greatest danger facing this nation from the Year 2000
Computing Crisis is the growing likelihood of gross federal
mismanagement.
End, Waco Update
Carol...@kreative.net
http://www.kreative.net/carolmoore/davidian-massacre.html
Aonghas P MacKenzie
from David Jackson <dija...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> My question remains unanswered . . .
> --
> Dave
> Frodsham
Well, one with eight is known as 'an eight' - - - Coxless three mayhap?
ô
_______<)_(>_______
\T/
~~ ~~ ~~ ~~~ ~~ ~~ ~~
APM
David Jackson
from Aonghas P MacKenzie <an.b...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> Well, one with eight is known as 'an eight' - - - Coxless three mayhap?
Telephone conference with No2 son reveals that it would probably be
known as a "tri" . . . but there aren't any. Oh well, interesting thought.
In rowing: 2 oarsmen = a pair, 4 oarsmen = a four (both these can
be coxed or coxless), 8 oarsmen = an eight
In sculling: 1 oarsman = a single scull, 2 oarsmen = a double, 4
oarsmen = a quad (doubles and quads can be coxless, a single is
always coxless), 8 oarsmen = an oct.
. . . so I'm told!
I've always been a mine of useless information.
--
Dave
Frodsham
Aonghas P MacKenzie
from David Jackson <dija...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> > Well, one with eight is known as 'an eight' - - - Coxless three mayhap?
> Telephone conference with No2 son reveals that it would probably be
> known as a "tri" . . . but there aren't any. Oh well, interesting thought.
I had visions of a three being used on a circular course.
APM
David Jackson
from Aonghas P MacKenzie <an.b...@zetnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> I had visions of a three being used on a circular course.
8-)
Scullers have two sculls each. In a coxless boat the bow oarsman
deals with the steering (his/her shoe is liked to the rudder).
Theoretically it's possible for sculling boats to be built for any
number of oarsmen but 1,2,4, and 8 are the usual numbers.
HTH
sfa...@bigfoot.com
Aonghas P MacKenzie <an.b...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote,
> (re-posting for Carol...@my-dejanews.com):
>
> MY VISIT TO THE NATIONAL HOLOCAUST MUSEUM In early July I visited the
> National Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C., where I live. It was
> something I'd been meaning to do for a few years. I was motivated, in part,
Easy to understand why. There ain't nothin' a phony hates 'n
fears more than havin' the real thing come to town. Been kinda
eatin' your liver for years, ain't it?
> and her recent
> Holocaust denial rants on usenet. Under the guise of being an
> "investigator," Ms. Valentine has now called *both* the Davidian survivors of
> Mount Carmel and the Jewish survivors of Nazi massacre liars and fabricators.
Callin' the Waco survivors liars? You been asked before to post
your cites on that, 'n I'm callin' you again.
> While Valentine charges the original BATF attack was a grand federal scheme
> to kill all the Davidians,
Can't you spit out two words without whelpin' a lie between
'em? Show your cards or leave the table.
> she questions whether the Nazis really meant to
> kill Jews at all. She dismisses groups like Jews for Preservation Firearms
> Ownership as "phonies" and "designated critics," i.e., government operatives.
> While a dispassionate investigator might find anomalies in facts about both
> Waco
"... might find anomalies in facts" about Waco? There's
the test a' your coin right there, and you come up like
a wooden nickle. If you don't see nothin' wrong with
sending Bradley tanks, armed helicopters, laser weapons,
'n ninja suited grenade throwers to arrest one alleged
child molester--you gotta be on the guvermint payroll.
Even you don't come that stoopid naturly.
> and the Holocaust, it is the allegations of massive fabrication which
> brand Ms. Valentine a crackpot with some strange hidden agenda.
Oh, right. The government TRIED to tell the truth about Waco,
but they just ain't had no practice. You got ta giv 'em credit
though, fer tellin' semi-transparent lies. Makes ya feel all
gooey inside, thinkin' maybe there's hope for 'em yet.
> The national
> Holocaust Museum presented ample evidence of Nazi crimes against political
> and religious activists and resisters, gypsies, the disabled, homosexuals, as
> well as those against Jews. The museum's decor of brick, grey metal and
> unpainted wood simulates concentration camp architecture.
Makes the case right there. Maybe I was wrong about you bein'
a phony investigator.
> The three floors
> of the permanent exhibit detail in video, audio and artifacts the rise of the
> Nazis, the massacres, the concentration camps and the liberation of the few
> survivors. One glass wall of a hallway lists the names of hundreds of
> predominantly Jewish communities and towns decimated by the Nazi's. The
> Nazi's committed hundreds of "Wacos" against Jews alone. (And destroyed
> thousands of other villages on their march through Eastern Europe and the
> Soviet Union.)
Exactly what the USHMM musta been thinkin' the day they had
Clinton dedicate the Museum in April, 1993. They needed a
real mass murderer there jes' to bless the stones, like.
And that brings us back to the souvenir shop, where I'm sure
y'all want to spend your precious pennies on something for the
folks back home. This is your USHMM hostess, sayin' good
night.
--Slade
P.S.: For those takin' notes, Valentine's Waco Museum is at:
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum
It's all free, and she won't try to sue you for the
paintings on your walls, or bilk you for souvenirs at
the end of the trip.