OS Package Systems (Was: Virtualization Progress)

[Alan Smith]

Gregg,

When we last did an OS reinstall (~May) we considered switching (we were first Debian and have been Gentoo for many years now). We rather seriously considered FreeBSD but didn't like its package system. While Portage was driving us nuts with how slow it had gotten to list new software as stable, its commands are simple and errors are much nicer than fBSD. It also defaulted to installing in /usr/local/bin rather than the structure Gentoo uses (that may not be so much of an issue since this change is big enough where things will break).

I hear what you're saying. I have no experience with the FreeBSD packaging system, but I get the impression that the entire OS has improved a lot over the years. It's likely that the system you experience is completely different than the one in existence today. I am downloading the FreeBSD ISO now and will run it through VMWare so I can get acquainted with it. If things really are as bad as you remember them, remedial action will have to be taken.

It's also evident through my readings of postings by FreeBSD lovers, that once your system is setup you rarely touch it. Servers are rarely given a complete system update (couple times a year) because there is no need. In addition, all the packages "just work" together and that seems to be a large selling point for it being used as a server. Once the packages we need are installed I doubt we'll use the ports system much.

But my main reason for bringing this up is to make sure we discuss and consider packaging systems and not just the virtualization options while considering OSes.

I don't think we have a whole lot to worry about, going by what people have said. However, I can understand your concern and it's definitely something I will look into.

Alan  

[Duncan]

Alan,

I'll expand a bit on what Gregory said about FreeBSD, since I did the testing before our reinstall. At the time, I set up a virtual machine with a current install of freeBSD and I tested it for a short time before our upgrade, trying to figure out the ports tree and trying to figure out if we could migrate over with a minimum of fuss for our users. At the time, and with admittedly limited testing, it looked like a lot of files would be moving around, which would have the potential to break stuff (in particular, stuff like Django which seems to like having the syspath variable set before projects will work). This isn't a complete deal-breaker, but it made me more reluctant to switch at the time. Also, in my limited testing ports wasn't as intuitive as Portage (the biggest annoyance, for me, was that it was harder to search packages and kicking off installs wasn't quite as easy). I'm sure I could learn Ports as well as I know Portage now, but those were my primary objections at the time. That said, I have't tried it as a primary OS, or even as an OS on one of my personal servers so it might be time to do so…

I quite like the BSD "no hacks" perspective on development. That is one of the things that most attracts me to the system, and I see the centralized mailing lists might make it easier to find fixes to esoteric issues. The FreeBSD document does make it look quite attractive.

-

Duncan

[Alan Smith]

Duncan,

Thank you, your extrapolation was helpful. We will definitely investigate this before settling fully on stock FreeBSD. I can't imagine so many people would use it as their server OS with a bad packaging system. However, a lot of people use Windows on their PCs...

That page that I sent out the link to is what made me fall in love with FreeBSD (or the concept of it anyhow). Ever since then I've been dying to try it as a server. As I said, I will install it on my laptop and look into the packaging system.

Alan

[Alexis Métaireau]

Le 10/15/2010 04:02 AM, Alan Smith a �crit :

> Gregg,
>
>> When we last did an OS reinstall (~May) we considered switching (we were
>> first Debian and have been Gentoo for many years now). We rather seriously
>> considered FreeBSD but didn't like its package system. While Portage was
>> driving us nuts with how slow it had gotten to list new software as stable,
>> its commands are simple and errors are much nicer than fBSD.

What kind of errors messages are you talking about ? Installation ones ?

>> It also
>> defaulted to installing in /usr/local/bin rather than the structure Gentoo
>> uses (that may not be so much of an issue since this change is big enough
>> where things will break).

In fbsd, we have two different places to place our binaries/libs,
regarding if they've been installed or if they're part of the system.

> I hear what you're saying. I have no experience with the FreeBSD packaging
> system, but I get the impression that the entire OS has improved a lot over
> the years. It's likely that the system you experience is completely
> different than the one in existence today. I am downloading the FreeBSD ISO
> now and will run it through VMWare so I can get acquainted with it. If
> things really are as bad as you remember them, remedial action will have to
> be taken.

The packaging system is a source based one, but you also have the
possibility to deal with packages (like gentoo portage for instance).

But I must admit that's not as easy to deal with than a debian system
for instance, 'cause we really know how to deal with those systems.

But once installed, fbsd is really simple to use/manage, and the jails
are really powerful !

> But my main reason for bringing this up is to make sure we discuss and
>> consider packaging systems and not just the virtualization options while
>> considering OSes.

Another option is to use OpenVZ, that's really a powerful system too,
and they have the ability to do live migrations, that fbsd jails dont
have. That's to consider :)

Cheers,
Alex

[Robert]

Hi everyone,

I'm not familiar with the subject, but I found that
the project OpenStack (http://www.openstack.org/)
deals with the similar systems.

KR,
Robert