Koja je vera najbolja?
Oliver Subotic
Od davnina se medju pripadnicima razlicitih veroispovesti postavljalo
pitanje koja je vera najbolja, koja nosi i otkriva najvecu punocu Istine.
Bilo je neizbezno prepucavanj eapologeta razlicitih strana, pa su potezane
"tone" citata, teksta, dogadjaja i sl.
Medju najbolje pravoslavne apologete danas svrstavam, nesumljivo, Dr.
Lazara Milina, a mislim i da se ostala pravoslavna bratija slaze sa mnom. Za
ovu priliku evo i jedne anegdote vezane za njegov odgovor na ovo
(problematicno) pitanje.
Elem, koliko se dobro secam bilo je to na nekom ekumenskom skupu (dakle
skup na kome ravnopravno ucestvuju pripadnici svih veroispovesti) i poteglo
se gornje pitanje. Pocela je rasprava, koja je trajala sve do trenutka kada
je otac Milin uzeo rec i kratko odgovorio : "Najbolja je ona vera koja ima
najvise Svetitelja". Usledio je tajac...
Svaki komentar je suvisan...
Svako dobro u Gospodu Hristu zeli svima Oliver
predanost
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Oliver Subotic <o...@infosky.net> wrote in message
news:9cee68$ao4$1...@news.InfoSky.Net...
> Pomaze Bog svima
>"Najbolja je ona vera koja ima
> najvise Svetitelja".
Sta podrazumijevas pod pojmom "svetitelj"?
Oliver Subotic
Svetitelj je covek koji je "osvecen" bogougodnim zivotom, neizmernom
ljubavlju prema Bogu i vatrenom verom, a nekada ispovednistvom i
mucenickom smrcu za Gospoda. Najcesce Bog proslavlja takve ljude
na razlicite nacine. Bilo da je to preko svetih i netruleznih mostiju ("Jer
neces dati da svetac Tvoj vidi trulost" - Psalmi Davidovi), bilo preko cuda
i znamenja koja su se desavala na njegove molitve (opet, po recima
Gospodnjim da ce oni koji ga svim srcem prime ciniti cuda u Ime Njegovo) ili
recimo preko svari koje su im pripadale (ogroman broj primera iz Svetog
Pisma).
Nekada Gospod to ucini na veoma cudan nacin (jer su voistinu cudni
putevi Gospodnji). Evo, reci cu ti primer Svetog Nektarija, Svetitelja koji
je ziveo u ovom veku, da ne bi neko rekao da je to izmisljena licnost,
nad cijim netruleznim mostima su se mnogi izlecili od najtezih bolesti
Sveti Nektarije je umro u jednoj bolnici u Grckoj, dvadesetih godina
ovog veka. Pored njega je lezao covek koji je godinama bio paralizovan.
Monahinje su nakon smrti svukle prsluk sa Sv. Nektarija, zeleci da ga
presvuku, i bacile ga na susedni krevet, tako da je "slucajno"
(ovo citaj Bozijim Promislom) pao preko nogu paralizovanog coveka.
U tom trenutku isti je ustao i prohodao, a lekari nisu mogli da dodju sebi
i verovatno nista drugo nisu mogli da ucine do da upisu taj slucaj u knjigu
fenomena. Eto, cak je i prsluk koji je Svetitelj nosio u sebi imao Bozansku
silu iscelenja.
Svaka religija ima svoje "heroje vere", ali ih je u pravoslavlju ubedljivo
najvise,
u sta se lako mozemo uveriti jer pored nebrojenih svetitelja iz davnih
vremena i
u nasem veku postoje Svetilnici vere koji svojim zivotom svedoce o
Istinitosti
Evandjelja Hristovog. Navescu samo neke (iz 20.veka) : Sv. Jovan Kronstatski
(lecio cak i na daljinu), Sv. Jovan Sangajski (poznat je slucaj isceljenja
HIV
pozitivne devojke iz San Franciska nad njegovim mostima), Sv. mucenik
Nestor,
gorepomenuti Sv. Nektarije (iscelitelj bolnih od raka), pa i Srbi svetitelji
ovog veka,
Sv. Nikolaj Velimirovic, episkop Zicki, i Ava Justin Celijski.
Hriste Gospode, Raspeti i Sveti, pomiluj nas molitvama Svetih ugodnika
Tvojih!
Svako dobro
Oliver
Andreja Peković
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Oliver Subotic <o...@infosky.net> wrote in message
news:9cguqs$ka0$2...@news.InfoSky.Net...
> > Sta podrazumijevas pod pojmom "svetitelj"?
>
> Svetitelj je covek koji je "osvecen" bogougodnim zivotom, neizmernom
> ljubavlju prema Bogu i vatrenom verom, a nekada ispovednistvom i
> mucenickom smrcu za Gospoda.
I koliko si izbrojao takvih ljudi u pravoslavlju?
A koliko u budizmu?
predanost
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Andreja Peković <ape...@EUnet.yu> wrote in message
news:9ci1kb$aco$1...@news.EUnet.yu...
> Ona koja čini ljude boljima kad ľive po njoj.
>
>
Slazem se, a dodao bih jos i:
svakom je iskrenom vjerniku njegova vjera najbolja!
Mladen Adamovic
Ona koja cini ljude blizima Bogu.
Mladen Adamovic
> > ljubavlju prema Bogu i vatrenom verom, a nekada ispovednistvom i
> > mucenickom smrcu za Gospoda.
> I koliko si izbrojao takvih ljudi u pravoslavlju?
> A koliko u budizmu?
:))). Edine, sta cemo da dobijemo ovim prebrojavanjem?
Oliver Subotic
"Andreja Peković" <ape...@EUnet.yu> wrote in message
news:9ci1kb$aco$1...@news.EUnet.yu...
Skoro svaka to cini, ali svaka ne nosi istu punocu Istine
Oliver Subotic
> A koliko u budizmu?
U pravoslavlju sto je zapisano i kanonizovano, sigurno nekoliko hiljada
konkretnih primera (Ime, poreklo, zivot, dela i na kraju Bozije
proslavljenje istih), jer za svaki dan u Zitijama Svetih imas oko desetak
svetitelja.
A zamisli sad da je neko zapisao samo sve novomucenike u Rusiji, koji su
stradali od komunista zbog pravoverja, sto je delic mucenicke krvi prolivene
za Hrista. Koliko je tu, ne hiljada, vec miliona? A da ne govorimo o svim
ispovednicima pravoverja do sada, taj broj zna samo Bog. Da li sada imas
predstavu o "broju"?
Pozdrav
Oli
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Mladen Adamovic <ad...@infosky.net> wrote in message
news:9cimv0$81k$1...@news.InfoSky.Net...
Eeeeeee, to pitaj Olija.
On ih je vec prebrojao!
predanost
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Oliver Subotic <o...@infosky.net> wrote in message
news:9cj8og$n66$2...@news.InfoSky.Net...
Odavno imam predstavu o broju vasih uzora.
Ali otkud znas koliko ih ima u drugim vjerama?
Oliver Subotic
> Ali otkud znas koliko ih ima u drugim vjerama?
Svako o svome svedoci. Na osnovu svega sto sam citao ranije o ostalim
religijama (recimo, u burnom delu moje rane mladosti veoma me je zanimao
budizam, pa sam o njemu dosta citao) shvatio sam da i kod ostalih postoje
sveti i mudri ljudi, Bogu ugodni zasigurno, ali da nigde Bog nije proslavio
toliko svojih prijatelja i na tako velicanstven nacin kao u pravoslavlju.
"Divan je Gospod u Svetima svojim", kako to rece psalmopevac David.
Bas bih voleo da cujem od tebe primere heroja vase vere i nacin na koji Bog
njih proslavlja. Ne kazem da ih nema, ali ti ih navedi kako sam ja naveo
svoje kada si me pitao o svetiteljima, pa neka ostali prosude o svemu...
Svako dobro
Oli
Oliver Subotic
"> > :))). Edine, sta cemo da dobijemo ovim prebrojavanjem?
> >
>
> Eeeeeee, to pitaj Olija.
> On ih je vec prebrojao!
Oli kaze ovako : Samo Bog zna koliko je hriscanskih svetitelja, a ja, ti i
Mladen cemo to saznati tek na Strasnom sudu.
Jedno je sigurno -ima ih vise no u ostalim religijama (pogledaj samo koliko
svetih mostiju ima kod pravoslavnih pa ce ti biti jasno koja je vera Bogu
najugodnija).
Pozdrav
Oli
Enoh
Bog ti pomogao, prijatelju.
> Elem, koliko se dobro secam bilo je to na nekom ekumenskom skupu (dakle
>skup na kome ravnopravno ucestvuju pripadnici svih veroispovesti) i poteglo
>se gornje pitanje. Pocela je rasprava, koja je trajala sve do trenutka kada
>je otac Milin uzeo rec i kratko odgovorio : "Najbolja je ona vera koja ima
>najvise Svetitelja". Usledio je tajac...
>
>Svaki komentar je suvisan...
Milin je zaista mudar covek. Ali, iako je komentar suvisan ja moram da
bar malo komentarisem. Mislim da ipak to nije fakat koji ce neku
religiju, ili konkretno veroispovest, uciniti najboljom, tj. najblizoj
istini.
Na primer, judaizam je bio istinita religija, ali judaizma ne poznaje
ni jednog Svetitelja. U judaizmu postoje ljudi koji su bili velikani
vere, koji su bili zacetnici ili ocevi judaizma, ali do dana danasnjeg
ni jedan od njih se ne slavi kao svetac. Jahve je bio jedini Svetitelj
u Izraelu, samo jedan.
iznogud
On Mon, 30 Apr 2001 14:04:47 +0200, you wrote:
>Oli kaze ovako : Samo Bog zna koliko je hriscanskih svetitelja, a ja, ti i
>Mladen cemo to saznati tek na Strasnom sudu.
> Jedno je sigurno -ima ih vise no u ostalim religijama (pogledaj samo koliko
>svetih mostiju ima kod pravoslavnih pa ce ti biti jasno koja je vera Bogu
>najugodnija).
Ja bih preporucio oprez pri ovakvim izjavama. Po pravilu se zaboravlja
na Indiju. Govori se recimo o monoteistickim religijama i navode se
samo judaizam, hriscanstvo i islam, a zaboravlja se na izvorni, vedski
monoteizam. Valjda je Indija daleko.
Neumesno je porediti ostale religije sa vedskom. Vedska se ne
objavljuje pojavom proroka, nego Stvaranjem. Ostale religije imaju
svoj pocetak, vedska nema. Nijedna druga religija nema takvu punocu i
raznolikost odnosa sa Bogom. Velike su specificnosti ... Recimo, ako
za svetitelje uzmemo samo one cije su se mosti posvetile, kako to
primeniti na Indiju, u kojoj nema grobalja, nego se mrtvi spaljuju ?
Onima koji su se za zivota proslavili kao svetitelji gradi se obicno
skromna grobnica, ali niko ne proverava u kakvom su stanju mosti.
Izuzetak je npr. Ramanuja iz XII veka, bio sam u hramu gde je
sahranjen. Saznao sam da mu je telo neraspadnuto, ali sam to cuo
uzgred, jer niko nam nije naglasavao nesto slicno. Cuda takve vrste su
uobicajena za Indiju. Takodje je nezgodno kalkulisati o brojci zato
sto je mnogo svetitelja anonimno. Povukli su se od sveta i ziveli su a
da niko za njih nije saznao. Neumesno je porediti apsolutni broj
svetitelja zbog velicine indijske populacije. A proporcionalno
poredjenje je na strani Indije, jer nigde nisam video toliko
duhovnosti u odnosu na broj stanovnika. Ako se govori o mucenicima -
pa, treba ustanoviti sta se pod time podrazumeva i koliko je to
relevantno. Jer, mozemo proglasiti bitku na Kuruksetri za svetinju i
svrstati 60 miliona zrtava u mucenike, i to samo pozivajuci se na ovaj
jedan dogadjaj ... Svaka religija je specificna i nije cudo ako je
blagoslovena cudesima koja su nepoznata drugim. Recimo, samo kod
katolika postoji stigmatizam. Sad, ne verujem da je rimokatolicizam
bogougodan koliko i pravoslavlje, ali je bitno da Bog uzvraca na
pozive rimokatolika na specifican nacin. Koliko je danas zivih svetih
osoba ? Ne znam, ali ne bih se cudio da ih je samo na Himalajima vise
nego u citavom ostatku sveta. A jedna od specificnosti, podsetili su
me Himalaji, je da su neke svete osobe tamo zasticene i tako sto su
nevidljivi posetiocima. Prosto, zive u svojoj pecini i prolaznik ih ne
primeti nego samo prodje. To se desava bez ikakvog ucesca ili namere
sveca, nego priroda po nalogu Gospoda sama pravi takav aranzman da ih
zastiti od uznemiravanja.
iznogud
On Mon, 30 Apr 2001 14:21:16 +0200, you wrote:
>toliko svojih prijatelja i na tako velicanstven nacin kao u pravoslavlju.
Sto se tice nacina, ne sme se zaboraviti da i religije mogu biti u
gunama vrline, strasti i neznanja. Sto je nekome milo i najbolje,
drugome je smesno ili gadno. Nacin na koji Bog proslavlja hriscanske
svetitelje je primeren mentalitetu koji je specifican za hriscanstvo,
a to je sklonost mistici. Mistika je tu bitan faktor verodostojnosti,
dok kod drugih moze biti samo nuspojava ili prateci balast.
Eto, Milin je kao presudan naveo broj svetitelja, a ja bih da se
navede broj spasenih.
predanost
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Oliver Subotic <o...@infosky.net> wrote in message
news:9cjkrj$33f$1...@news.InfoSky.Net...
> Oli kaze ovako : Samo Bog zna koliko je hriscanskih svetitelja, a ja, ti i
> Mladen cemo to saznati tek na Strasnom sudu.
> Jedno je sigurno -ima ih vise no u ostalim religijama
Nije mi jasno kako mozes da budes toliko siguran???
Ti si ih izgleda stvarno brojio u svim svjetskim religijama.
>(pogledaj samo koliko
> svetih mostiju ima kod pravoslavnih pa ce ti biti jasno koja je vera Bogu
> najugodnija).
Mi sve nase mrtve ukopavamo.
Ono sto vi radite sa mostima vasih svetaca je po nasem vjerovanju
uznemiravanje umrlog.
predanost
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Oliver Subotic <o...@infosky.net> wrote in message
news:9cjlg6$3mq$1...@news.InfoSky.Net...
Kazi mi koliko hoces da ti navedem primjera, a ja cu fotokopirati tekstove
za svaki primjer i sve cu to poslati svakom ko bude zainteresovan - pa neka
onda svi daju svoj sud.
(Ali budi korektan, jer cu i ja od tebe traziti isti broj, kao i da navedes
osnovne
historijske podatke o svakom od njih, kao i ono zbog cega su bili po tebi
izuzetni.)
Imaj na umu jos i sljedece, to su samo tekstovi koji su prevedeni sa drugih
jezika (uglavnom sa arapskog), a mnogo je vise neprevedenih tekstova.
Imaj i ovo na umu, najveci stepen kod Boga postizu sehidi, a to su oni koji
poginu na Bozijem putu. A takvim se nezna ni broja.
Oliver Subotic
> navede broj spasenih.
To cemo videti tek na Strasnom Sudu. Daj Boze da i ja i ti budemo medju
njima.
Pozdrav
Oli
Oliver Subotic
navedes
> osnovne
> historijske podatke o svakom od njih, kao i ono zbog cega su bili po tebi
> izuzetni.)
Vec sam naveo nekoliko u prvim postovima na ovu temu i svi su ziveli u ovom
veku, zna se gde su rodjeni i cime su se bavili, postoje ocevici njihovih
dela. Ja bih bas voleo da i ti navedes neke savremenike tvoje vere koje je
Bog proslavio.
> Imaj i ovo na umu, najveci stepen kod Boga postizu sehidi, a to su oni
koji
> poginu na Bozijem putu. A takvim se nezna ni broja.
Boziji put? Ako tako zovete opravdanje za brutalne osvajacke ratove, onda
ste u teskoj prelesti.
Pozdrav
Oli
Oliver Subotic
"Recimo, ako
> za svetitelje uzmemo samo one cije su se mosti posvetile, kako to
> primeniti na Indiju, u kojoj nema grobalja, nego se mrtvi spaljuju ?
Svete mosti su samo jedan oblik Bozijeg projavljivanja Svetitelja. Cuda na
njihovim grobovima, iselenja njihovim molitvenim zastupnistvom su mnogo
brojniji primer. Mosti Svetog Save su spalili, ali ogroman je broj ljudi
koji su osetili Savino zastupnistvo u svom zivotu.
Takodje je nezgodno kalkulisati o brojci zato
> sto je mnogo svetitelja anonimno.
Apsolutno se slazem. Ali me niko ne moze ubediti da ijedna religija ima vise
mucenika za Boga i veru od hriscanske, to je vec fakat.
Jer, mozemo proglasiti bitku na Kuruksetri za svetinju i
> svrstati 60 miliona zrtava u mucenike, i to samo pozivajuci se na ovaj
> jedan dogadjaj ...
Da, ali zasto bi proglasili tu bitku za svetinju?
Sad, Koliko je danas zivih svetih
> osoba ? Ne znam, ali ne bih se cudio da ih je samo na Himalajima vise
> nego u citavom ostatku sveta.
To samo Bog zna. Zbog takvih ljudi Bog i drzi svet.
A jedna od specificnosti, podsetili su
> me Himalaji, je da su neke svete osobe tamo zasticene i tako sto su
> nevidljivi posetiocima. Prosto, zive u svojoj pecini i prolaznik ih ne
> primeti nego samo prodje. To se desava bez ikakvog ucesca ili namere
> sveca, nego priroda po nalogu Gospoda sama pravi takav aranzman da ih
> zastiti od uznemiravanja.
Vec sam ranije rekao da se slazem da u Indiji, Kitaju i sl. ima svetih
ljudi, milih
Bogu. Ali ni u jednoj religiji nisam pronasao primere tolike LJUBAVI prema
Bogu i bliznjem kao kod svetitelja-hriscana. Licno ne mogu porediti onoga ko
je u potrazi za mudroscu otisao na Himalaje i odvojio se od sveta, i onoga
koji celog sebe predaje Bogu, iz ljubavi prema
Njemu, kao primarnog razloga. Prvi primer je verovatno masovan da
dalekom istoku, a drugi je karakteristican za hriscanske Svetitelje (koji su
se takodje cesto odvajali od sveta u zabiti i pustinje, ali opet kazem,
Hrista Gospoda
radi).
Pozdrav
Oli
Oliver Subotic
"> Na primer, judaizam je bio istinita religija, ali judaizma ne poznaje
> ni jednog Svetitelja. U judaizmu postoje ljudi koji su bili velikani
> vere, koji su bili zacetnici ili ocevi judaizma, ali do dana danasnjeg
> ni jedan od njih se ne slavi kao svetac.
Mozda se ne slavi medju Jevrejima, zaista, ali Bog ih je proslavio kao
Svete, to je bitno. I hriscani sve Svetitelje judaizma postuju kao svoje,
iako su ziveli pre Hristovog dolaska. Jer ceo Stari Zavet je bio priprema za
Novi.
Pozdrav
Oli
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Oliver Subotic <o...@infosky.net> wrote in message
news:9clsg2$5as$1...@news.InfoSky.Net...
> > (Ali budi korektan, jer cu i ja od tebe traziti isti broj, kao i da
> navedes
> > osnovne
> > historijske podatke o svakom od njih, kao i ono zbog cega su bili po
tebi
> > izuzetni.)
>
> Vec sam naveo nekoliko u prvim postovima na ovu temu i svi su ziveli u
ovom
> veku, zna se gde su rodjeni i cime su se bavili, postoje ocevici njihovih
> dela. Ja bih bas voleo da i ti navedes neke savremenike tvoje vere koje je
> Bog proslavio.
Da prekucavam ne mogu. Rekao sam da cu svakom zainteresovanom poslati
kopije tekstova vezanih za tu temu.
>
> > Imaj i ovo na umu, najveci stepen kod Boga postizu sehidi, a to su oni
> koji
> > poginu na Bozijem putu. A takvim se nezna ni broja.
>
> Boziji put? Ako tako zovete opravdanje za brutalne osvajacke ratove, onda
> ste u teskoj prelesti.
Izvini, na koje to brutalne osvajacke ratove mislis?
Svako dobro,
Edin
predanost
Oliver Subotic <o...@infosky.net> wrote in message
news:9clr1f$3u6$4...@news.InfoSky.Net...
> Jer, mozemo proglasiti bitku na Kuruksetri za svetinju i
> > svrstati 60 miliona zrtava u mucenike, i to samo pozivajuci se na ovaj
> > jedan dogadjaj ...
>
> Da, ali zasto bi proglasili tu bitku za svetinju?
>
Pa zato sto je on smatra za svetu.
Ako za tebe ona nije sveta, za njega jeste.
U tome i jeste stvar kod tebe. Ti sabiras babe i zabe.
Nikako da shvatis da u svakoj religiji postoji sistem vrijednosti za sebe.
Inace si ti u pravu... stvarno ni u jednoj vjeri nema toliko svetitelja kao
u tvojoj (onakvih kakvi ti mislis da trebaju biti).
Tvoje insistiranje na tvom licnom stavu po ovom pitanju, govori o tvojoj
nemogucnosti da vodis jedan medjureligijski dijalog?
Stvarno, kako ti zamisljas jedan takav dijalog?
Svako dobro,
Edin
Enoh
Da. Ali nigde nije zabelezeno da je ijedan apostol slavio bilo kog
sveca. Mozda ces da primetis da su oni sami bili svetitelji, ali
zapazi da cak ni sam Jovan koji je najduze preziveo nijednog od njih
nikada nije smatrao za svetitelje kojima se treba klanjati. Smatrao ih
je za svece po tome sto su oni zaista prosli kroz "trpljenje svetih",
ali ni u jednom slucaju nijednog od njih nije smatrao za posrednika
izmedju Boga i njega. Tu ulogu je u Jovanom zivotu, a trebalo bi u
svacijem, imao samo Isus Hristos. "Jer je jedan Posrednik izmedju Boga
i ljudi, covek Isus Hristos."
Oliver Subotic
Izvini, a da se ti malo ne pravis lud? Pa dovoljno ti je da pogledas sta su
Turci sve radili na ovim prostorima, svodeci svoja osvajanja na "sveti rat
protiv bezboznika".
Oliver Subotic
> sveca. Mozda ces da primetis da su oni sami bili svetitelji, ali
> zapazi da cak ni sam Jovan koji je najduze preziveo nijednog od njih
> nikada nije smatrao za svetitelje kojima se treba klanjati.
Niko se ni u pravoslavlju ne klanja svecima, vec se klanjamo Bogu koji ih je
osvetio (svojim poklonom pred mostima izrazavamo postovanje Svetima i
klanjanje Bogu koji ih je proslavio). Takodje ih prizivamo u molitvama, jer
"Molitva pravdenika moze puno pomoci".
Smatrao ih
> je za svece po tome sto su oni zaista prosli kroz "trpljenje svetih",
> ali ni u jednom slucaju nijednog od njih nije smatrao za posrednika
> izmedju Boga i njega.
Zasto onda apostol Pavle kaze da se molimo jedni za druge? I zasto
u Starom Zavetu pise da molitva pravednika moze puno pomoci? Gledajmo samo
konkretno koliko je ljudi isceljeno od dusevnih i telesnih nemoci nad
mostima Svetitelja ili njihovim molitvenim zastupnistvom, pa to samo Bog
zna. Da Bogu nije ugodno da pored molitava koje Njemu direktno upucujemo
prizivamo i Presvetu Bogorodicu i Svete u pomoc, nijedan od tih stradalnika
ne bi zalecio svoje rane.
Da rezimiram, Svetitelji su najverniji Hristovi Prijatelji i kao takve ih
treba uvazavati i moliti za zastupnistvo pred Gospodom.
>Tu ulogu je u Jovanom zivotu, a trebalo bi u
> svacijem, imao samo Isus Hristos. "Jer je jedan Posrednik izmedju Boga
> i ljudi, covek Isus Hristos."
Najveci je problem kada ljudi parcijalno posmatraju Sv. Pismo, a ne
celovito - tada odmah dolazi do jeresi, na zalost. Dobro, naveo si svoj
citat. Znas li zasto je Gospod jedini Posrednik? Zato jer je sebe prineo na
zrtvu radi spasenja svih ljudi. Takvu zrtvu niko nikad niti je prineo niti
ce prineti. I kada se molimo Svetiteljima, mi od njih i trazimo molitve za
nas pred Jedinim Zastupnikom. Da li si se ikada molio za nekoga? Ako jesi,
pa i ti si bio neka vrsta njegovog zastupnika, zar ne? A zar nije Gospod
svoje prvo cudo, na svadbi Simonovoj u Kani Galilejskoj ucinio na molitve
Svoje Preciste Matere? Ona je bila ta koja ga je umolila da im pomogne. Ovde
nije potrebno puno teologije, dovoljno je otvoriti srce i videti da su
najlepsi dusom oni ljudi koji se podjednako mole za sebe i za druge.
Pozdrav
Oli
Oliver Subotic
> Ako za tebe ona nije sveta, za njega jeste.
Pitanje nije da li je sveta za mene ili za njega, vec koliko je sveta pred
Bogom.
> U tome i jeste stvar kod tebe. Ti sabiras babe i zabe.
> Nikako da shvatis da u svakoj religiji postoji sistem vrijednosti za sebe.
Shvatam ja to, ali ti nikako da shvatis da se Bog ni u jednoj religiji nije
tako savrseno otkrio ljudima kao u hriscanstvu.
> Inace si ti u pravu... stvarno ni u jednoj vjeri nema toliko svetitelja
kao
> u tvojoj (onakvih kakvi ti mislis da trebaju biti).
Najzad i ti da priznas
> Tvoje insistiranje na tvom licnom stavu po ovom pitanju, govori o tvojoj
> nemogucnosti da vodis jedan medjureligijski dijalog?
> Stvarno, kako ti zamisljas jedan takav dijalog?
Da postujem tudje i ispovedam svoje. To sto tebe postujem znaci da necu
pljuvati po tvojoj religiji, a to sto cu ispovedati svoje znaci da cu
iznositi svoje argumente zasto je hriscanstvo vera koja nosi najvecu punocu
Istine
Pozdrav
Oli
Enoh
Mislim da ne bi trebao da svrstavas u isti kos veru koju islam
ispoveda i ono sto su radili bezbozni ljudi koji su se mozda krili pod
okriljem, ovoga puta islama. Takodje su i mnogi islamisti, jevreji,
kao i uostalom i sami hriscani, stradali od ruke "hriscana" koji su
vodili krstaske pohode. Da li ces da posmatras hriscane u svetlu onih
ljudi koji su ucinili onakvu strahotu u Bartolomejskoj noci? Nadam se
da neces, jer ja u tim "hriscanima" ne vidim ama bas nista hriscansko
i pobozno.
Enoh
>Smatrao ih
>> je za svece po tome sto su oni zaista prosli kroz "trpljenje svetih",
>> ali ni u jednom slucaju nijednog od njih nije smatrao za posrednika
>> izmedju Boga i njega.
>
>Zasto onda apostol Pavle kaze da se molimo jedni za druge? I zasto
>u Starom Zavetu pise da molitva pravednika moze puno pomoci?
Apostol Pavle govori o tome u onom trenutku kada kaze sta mi trebamo
da cinimo kada je neko od brace bolestan. Ja mislim da Bog tu kaze da
ukoliko si ti pravednik, tvoja molitva nad bolesnikom veoma mnogo moze
da pomogne u izlecenju istog.
>>>Tu ulogu je u Jovanom zivotu, a trebalo bi u
>> svacijem, imao samo Isus Hristos. "Jer je jedan Posrednik izmedju Boga
>> i ljudi, covek Isus Hristos."
>
>Najveci je problem kada ljudi parcijalno posmatraju Sv. Pismo, a ne
>celovito - tada odmah dolazi do jeresi, na zalost. Dobro, naveo si svoj
>citat. Znas li zasto je Gospod jedini Posrednik? Zato jer je sebe prineo na
>zrtvu radi spasenja svih ljudi. Takvu zrtvu niko nikad niti je prineo niti
>ce prineti. I kada se molimo Svetiteljima, mi od njih i trazimo molitve za
>nas pred Jedinim Zastupnikom. Da li si se ikada molio za nekoga? Ako jesi,
>pa i ti si bio neka vrsta njegovog zastupnika, zar ne? A zar nije Gospod
>svoje prvo cudo, na svadbi Simonovoj u Kani Galilejskoj ucinio na molitve
>Svoje Preciste Matere? Ona je bila ta koja ga je umolila da im pomogne. Ovde
>nije potrebno puno teologije, dovoljno je otvoriti srce i videti da su
>najlepsi dusom oni ljudi koji se podjednako mole za sebe i za druge.
Dobro, slazem se sa tobom kada kazes i tumacis Hrista kao posrednika.
Ali, da ne okolisem mnogo i filozofiram, razlika u nasim misljenjima
je sledeca: ti verujes da su sveci danas zivi ljudi! Je li tako? Ja
verujem da nisu! Gore si spomenuo i jeretike. Smatraj ti mene zasta
cime god hoces, ja sada necu da iznosim moje stihove u vezi ove teme,
ali te pozivam da mi ti jasno pokazes iz Biblije, posmatrajuci je
"celovito" da je danas, na primer, ziv apostol Petar, ili Jovan, ili
mozda pak Lazar, Nikodim, ili bilo ko drugi (navodim bez veze, svi su
oni bili pravednici).
Mozes li ti meni bilo kojim stihom iz Biblije da potvrdis
predanost
www.geocities.com/predanost
Oliver Subotic <o...@infosky.net> wrote in message
news:9cn027$641$3...@news.InfoSky.Net...
> > Inace si ti u pravu... stvarno ni u jednoj vjeri nema toliko svetitelja
> kao
> > u tvojoj (onakvih kakvi ti mislis da trebaju biti).
>
> Najzad i ti da priznas
Ne, ovo je tvoje priznanje o tvojoj iskljucivosti.
Ti bi voleo da cujes kako jedan musliman, ili budista, ili svi drugi
nehriscani, hvale na sva usta samo hriscanstvo, mada nisu hriscani.
E to neces nikada cuti!
Svako dobro,
Edin
predanost
>
> Izvini, a da se ti malo ne pravis lud?
aleksandar uskokov
ubedljivo
> najvise,
> u sta se lako mozemo uveriti jer pored nebrojenih svetitelja iz davnih
> vremena i
> u nasem veku postoje Svetilnici vere koji svojim zivotom svedoce o
> Istinitosti
> Evandjelja Hristovog. Navescu samo neke (iz 20.veka) : Sv. Jovan
Kronstatski
> (lecio cak i na daljinu), Sv. Jovan Sangajski (poznat je slucaj isceljenja
> HIV
> pozitivne devojke iz San Franciska nad njegovim mostima), Sv. mucenik
> Nestor,
> gorepomenuti Sv. Nektarije (iscelitelj bolnih od raka), pa i Srbi
svetitelji
> ovog veka,
> Sv. Nikolaj Velimirovic, episkop Zicki, i Ava Justin Celijski.
>
> Hriste Gospode, Raspeti i Sveti, pomiluj nas molitvama Svetih ugodnika
> Tvojih!
1. Kazes "Svaka religija ima svoje "heroje vere", ali ih je u pravoslavlju
ubedljivo najvise". To bi znacilo da sve ostale religije poznajes jednako
dobro kao i pravoslavlje -- kako bi inace znao koliko je u njima svetitelja.
Sta znas o drevnom i savremenom budizmu i svim njegovim varijantama
(sektama)? Sta znas o vaisnavizmu i njegovim svetiteljima? itd...
Svako svoga konja hvali.
2. Isceljiteljstvo i slicne gluposti nikako nisu dokaz svetosti. To su
natprirodne moci koje covek stice zahvaljujuci asketskom zivotu. Recimo, Sai
Baba radi mnogo vise stvari od svetitelja kojih si ti naveo, a ispostavilo
se da je pedofil. Merilo svetosti moze biti SAMO ljubav prema Bogu, a to je
nesto sto se vidi SAMO po tome koliko ljudi naucis da vole Boga.
Pozdrav,
Aleksandar
iznogud
On Mon, 30 Apr 2001 23:29:45 +0200, you wrote:
>Svete mosti su samo jedan oblik Bozijeg projavljivanja Svetitelja. Cuda na
>njihovim grobovima, iselenja njihovim molitvenim zastupnistvom su mnogo
>brojniji primer. Mosti Svetog Save su spalili, ali ogroman je broj ljudi
>koji su osetili Savino zastupnistvo u svom zivotu.
Da, to je normalno. Sada mogu po secanju da navedem primer tibetanskog
yogija Milarepe, cije su telo takodje spalili. Tokom spaljivanja cula
se nebeska muzika i padala je kisa cveca, a nakon toga se u pepelu
njegovog tela pojavilo drago kamenje, koga su kao prvorazrednu
relikviju ugrabila nebeska bica.
>Jer, mozemo proglasiti bitku na Kuruksetri za svetinju i
>> svrstati 60 miliona zrtava u mucenike, i to samo pozivajuci se na ovaj
>> jedan dogadjaj ...
>
>Da, ali zasto bi proglasili tu bitku za svetinju?
Bog je bio prisutan.
>Vec sam ranije rekao da se slazem da u Indiji, Kitaju i sl. ima svetih
>ljudi, milih
>Bogu. Ali ni u jednoj religiji nisam pronasao primere tolike LJUBAVI prema
>Bogu i bliznjem kao kod svetitelja-hriscana. Licno ne mogu porediti onoga ko
>je u potrazi za mudroscu otisao na Himalaje i odvojio se od sveta, i onoga
>koji celog sebe predaje Bogu, iz ljubavi prema Njemu,
Zar mislis da se pravoslavni pustinjak i isposnik odvoji od sveta zato
sto mu nedostaje ljubavi ? Zasto onda to pripisujes yogijima ? Svakako
da motivisanost moze biti razlicita, i ja sam ranije govorio o tome,
ali ovde je sada u pitanju samo neinformisanost. Meni je poznata
ljubav pravoslavnih prema svetu i Bogu, ali tebi verovatno nije
poznato da je ta ljubav srz bhakti-yoge. Bhakti znaci devocija,
zanosna ljubav prema Bogu, emocija koja se moze osetiti samo prema
Njemu. Bhakti yoga zna za devocijske odnose i dubine ljubavi prema
Bogu koje drugi sistemi ne mogu ni da naslute. Zato se i izdvaja kao
posebna yoga, ona koja je najstrucnija po ovom pitanju.
iznogud
On Tue, 01 May 2001 23:09:55 GMT, you wrote:
> razlika u nasim misljenjima
>je sledeca: ti verujes da su sveci danas zivi ljudi! Je li tako? Ja
>verujem da nisu! Gore si spomenuo i jeretike. Smatraj ti mene zasta
>cime god hoces, ja sada necu da iznosim moje stihove u vezi ove teme,
>ali te pozivam da mi ti jasno pokazes iz Biblije, posmatrajuci je
>"celovito" da je danas, na primer, ziv apostol Petar, ili Jovan, ili
>mozda pak Lazar, Nikodim, ili bilo ko drugi (navodim bez veze, svi su
>oni bili pravednici).
>Mozes li ti meni bilo kojim stihom iz Biblije da potvrdis
Da ne preturam po Bibliji, mislim da je opste poznato da je sveti
Ilija ziv, u telu, vaznet na nebo. Meni nikada nije palo na pamet da
svetitelji nisu i danas zivi. Treba samo znati da telo sacinjeno od
elementa zemlje nije i jedino telo, kao i da postoje i druga bica iz
nebeske hijerarhije, koja postoje u svojim telima i ravnima i kojima
su se, po mom misljenju, nakon smrti pridruzili svetitelji.
Ne mora sve pisati u Bibliji, zato postoji teologija.
Enoh
> Ilija ziv, u telu, vaznet na nebo. Meni nikada nije palo na pamet da
> svetitelji nisu i danas zivi.
Da. Za njega se zna, kao sto se smatra i da je Mojsije takodje uzet k
Bogu, jer se ne zna gde mu je grob. A upravo su njih dvojica, tj.
Mojsije i Ilija bili sa hristom na Gori Preobrazenja. Mislim da na njih
dvojicu primenjen sud pre vremena, kao na primer za Ananiju i Sapfiru
koji su osudjeni, ali ne na zivot.
Medjutim, sta je bilo sa Hristom nakon smrti? Bio je u grobu! Sta je
bilo sa Lazarom koga je vaskrsao? I Lazar je bio u grobu, a Hristos je
stanje u kome se Lazar nalazio uporedio sa snom. Lazar je izasao iz
groba, a ne pao sa neba ili izasao iz utrobe zemlje. A sta je sa onim
stihom: "I niko se ne pope na nebo osim onaj koji sidje s neba, sin
covecij koji je na nebu." (Jovan 3:13)?!
> Ne mora sve pisati u Bibliji, zato postoji teologija.
Da, ali teologija koja se bazira na Bibliji. Ja samo Bibliju smatram za
autoritet, i nista vise. Hristos je svojim zivotom pokazao znacaj Starog
Zaveta, a apostolska nauka se pridruzila kao Novi. Hristos je proucavao
Stari Zavet, tumacio, ucio i na sva kusaceva kusanja se odbranio sa
"Pisano je...". Znase gde je pisano, jasno je citirao i meni ne treba
nikakva visa mudrolija sem Biblije. Po meni Biblija je Bozja nadahnuta
rec koja predstavlja temeljno, potpuno, dovoljno i jedino pravilo
verovanja i zivota. "Sve je pismo od Boga dano..." 2. Timotiju 3:16
ziko
<usk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>natprirodne moci koje covek stice zahvaljujuci asketskom zivotu. Recimo, Sai
>Baba radi mnogo vise stvari od svetitelja kojih si ti naveo, a ispostavilo
Iznositi neistine, teško blatiti drugo ljudsko biće je veliki greh.
...Neki ljudi postanu ljubomorni na tuđi uspjeh. Zavist je poput
demona. Ako koren stabla prepunog lišća, voća i cveća napadne
štetočina, ono će ubrzo uvenuti. Štetočina, oku nevidljiva, podmuklo
rije. Nije stablo za to krivo. Zavidna osoba skriva svoju ljubomoru u
srcu i potajno je prenosi i na druge. To je pokvareno...
Roger
Enoh <mve...@eunet.yu> wrote in message news:9cpn7b$nto$1...@news.eunet.yu...
> > Da ne preturam po Bibliji, mislim da je opste poznato da je sveti
> > Ilija ziv, u telu, vaznet na nebo. Meni nikada nije palo na pamet da
> > svetitelji nisu i danas zivi.
hvala vam puno na ovim podacima...nikad mi ne bi palo tako nesto na
pamet...e ovakve stvari volim da vidim ...:))
pozdrav
Roger
aleksandar uskokov
Sai
> >Baba radi mnogo vise stvari od svetitelja kojih si ti naveo, a
ispostavilo
>
Jos je veci greh zavoditi, varati ljudi predstavljajuci se kao Bog na osnovu
prljavih trikova i beznacajnih moci kakvih svaki jogi sa Himalaja ima deset
puta vise, samo se ne razmece njima jer zna da ce time prouzrokovati
sopstveni pad.
Visvamitra je stvorio celu planetu -- nije mu na pamet palo da se proglasi
Bogom. Brahma stvara citavu vasionu, pa ipak kaze da su oni koji ga smatraju
Bogom u iluziji.
aleksandar uskokov
ziko <n...@way.com> wrote in message
news:g0q0ftcfc71h1iunv...@4ax.com...
Sai Baba Child Abuse Allegation
THE DAILY TELEGRAPH, UK
Divine downfall
The guru Sai Baba has left India only once, yet his devotees across
the
world are estimated at up to 50 million. They worship him as a living god
who,
at the very least, can change people's lives and possibly even work
miracles.
But now his followers are bitterly divided by allegations that their guru
has
for years been systematically sexually abusing boy disciples summoned to his
presence. By Mick Brown driving into town from the small Midwest airport
where
Carrie Young and her husband had met me off the plane, she pulled a large
picture from the back seat of the station wagon. Framed in gilded-gold, the
picture showed the couple and their three children posing with an elderly,
chubby-faced Indian man with an ostentatious Afro haircut, dressed in a red
robe. Staring out of the picture, it seemed the Youngs were shining with
happiness. 'And to think,' said Carrie, 'this is the man we used to think
was
God.'
Sathya Sai Baba: for years the subject of rumbling allegations of
fakery,
fraud and worse.
I had been with the Youngs for less than 30 minutes, but I had already
decided - in the way you sometimes do - that I liked them, that they were
what
Americans call 'straight arrows': honest, decent and truthful. A handsome,
clean-cut couple in their mid-40s; both worked in the computer industry. The
past year, said Jeff, had been difficult, what with all that had happened,
but
they were pulling things together. Any experience offers potential for
growth,
he said; even one as traumatic, as unbelievable, as this one. The Youngs put
a
lot of value in growth.
A year ago, their son Sam had come to them with a shocking assertion:
Sathya Sai Baba, he told them - the man the Youngs had revered as God for
more
than 20 years - was, in fact, a sexual abuser. Over the course of four
years,
in his ashram, while Sam's parents sat a few yards away - thrilled that
their
son should be in such close proximity to the divine, secure in their belief
that the god-man was ministering to their son's spiritual welfare - Sai Baba
was actually subjecting him to sustained and systematic sexual abuse.
'You'll
meet Sam at the restaurant,' said Carrie. 'He's prepared to talk about this.
He
thinks it's important too.'
Sam was a tall, blue-eyed, dreadlocked boy with a look that could only
be
described as angelic. The Youngs ordered hamburgers and beer - a gesture, it
seemed, almost of defiance; for the 23 years they followed Sai Baba the
family
were all strict vegetarians. For the next four hours, they told me the story
of
how they had come to Sai Baba; of their spiritual aspirations, the dreams,
the
visions, the miracles - and the nightmare their lives had turned into. And
always, throughout the conversation, the same question repeated itself: how
could it possibly have come to this?
For more than 50 years, Sai Baba has been India's most famous and most
powerful holy man - a worker of miracles, it is said, an instrument of the
divine. His following extends not only to every corner of the Indian
sub-continent, but also to Europe, America, Australia, South America and
throughout Asia. Estimates of the total number of Baba devotees around the
world vary between 10 and 50 million.
To even begin to appreciate the scale and intensity of his following,
it
is necessary to have some understanding of what his devotees believe him to
be,
and of the powers that are attributed to him. Much of what follows exists in
a
realm beyond rational explanation. Among his devotees, Sai Baba is believed
to
be an avatar: literally, an incarnation of the divine, one of a rare body of
divine beings - such as Krishna or Christ - who, it is said, take human form
to
further man's spiritual evolution.
According to the four-volume hagiography written by his late secretary
and disciple, Professor N Kasturi, Sai Baba was born 'of immaculate
conception'
in the southern Indian village of Puttaparthi in 1926. As a young boy, he
displayed signs of miraculous abilities, including 'materialising' flowers
and
sweets from 'nowhere'. At 13 he declared himself to be the reincarnation of
a
revered southern Indian saint, Shirdi Sai Baba, who died in 1918. Challenged
to
prove his identity, Kasturi writes, he threw a clump of jasmine flowers on
the
floor, which arranged themselves to spell out 'Sai Baba' in Telugu.
In 1950 he established a small ashram, Prasanthi Nilayam (Abode of
Serenity) in his home village. This has now grown to the size of a small
town,
accommodating up to 10,000 people, with tens of thousands more housed in the
numerous hotels and apartment blocks that have sprung up around. So great
are
the numbers of pilgrims that in recent years an airstrip has been
constructed
near the town. There is a primary school, university, college, and hospital
in
the ashram, and innumerable other institutions around India bearing Sai
Baba's
name.
In India, his devotees include the former prime minister, PV Narasimha
Rao, the present Prime Minister, Atal Bihari Vajpayee, and an assortment of
senior judiciary, academics, scientists and prominent politicians. Unlike
other
Indian gurus who have travelled in the West, cultivating a following among
faith seekers and celebrities, Sai Baba has left India only once, in the
Seventies, to visit Uganda. His reputation in the West spread largely by
word-of-mouth. His devotees tend to be drawn from the educated
middle-classes.
It is said that as an instrument of the divine, Sai Baba is
omniscient,
capable of seeing the past, present and future of everyone; his 'miracles'
include materialising various keepsakes for devotees, including watches,
rings
and pendants, as well as vibhuti or holy ash. Like Christ, he is said to
have
created food to feed multitudes; to have 'appeared' to disciples in times of
crisis or need. There are countless accounts of healings, and at least two
of
his having raised people from the dead.
Unlike the infamous Rolls-Royce-driving guru Rajneesh, who preached a
philosophy of heady libertarianism, or the Maharishi of Beatles fame, who
marketed traditional meditation techniques as an aid to better health and
efficiency, Sai Baba's teachings resemble a synthesis of all the great
faiths,
with a particular emphasis on Christian charity, enshrined in his most
ubiquitous aphorism, 'Love All, Serve All'. Perhaps his most improbable
disciple is Don Mario Mazzoleni, a former Vatican priest and the author of A
Catholic Priest Meets Sai Baba, in which he expresses his conviction that
Christ and Sai Baba are the same manifestation of God on earth. Mazzoleni
was
excommunicated in 1992 because of his belief.
The principal event in Prasanthi Nilayam is darshan, in which Sai Baba
emerges twice daily from his quarters adjacent to the main temple and walks
among the thousands of devotees seated on the hard marble floor. Hands reach
forward to touch his feet or to pass him letters of supplication.
Occasionally
he pauses, to offer a blessing or to 'materialise' vibhuti in an
outstretched
hand. It is during darshan that Sai Baba, by some unseen criteria, chooses
people from the crowd for private interviews. When I visited the ashram
three
years ago, researching a book on India, my application to the secretary to
interview Sai Baba was politely refused; a formal letter of request to Baba
himself went unacknowledged. For the next week I sat on the marble floor of
the
temple waiting to be chosen for interview. I never was. Some devotees might
wait for years.
It is difficult to describe the atmosphere of fervent devotion that
permeates the ashram. Devotees talk of having been 'called' by dreams,
visions
or curious flips of synchronicity, impossible to explain and too powerful to
ignore. People jockey for favour and position, endlessly recycling stories
of
his miracles and powers. It is a catalyst for every imaginable emotion -
piety,
hope, desperation, jealousy and pride. One person described it as 'like
metals
being smelted - all the crap comes up to the top'.
Inevitably for such a potent figure, Sai Baba has, for years, been the
subject of rumbling allegations of fakery, fraud and worse. But he has
proved
remarkably immune to controversy, the accusations doing little to dent his
growing following or the esteem in which he is held. But all that, it
appears,
is about to change.
In recent months, an extraordinary storm of allegations have
appeared -
spurred by a document called The Findings, compiled by an English former
devotee named David Bailey - which threaten to shake the very foundations of
Sai Baba's holy empire. Sai Baba may represent an ancient tradition of
belief,
but the instrument of accusation against him is an altogether modern one.
Originally published in document form, The Findings quickly found its way on
to
the internet, where it has become the catalyst for a raging cyberspace
debate
about whether Sai Baba is truly divine or, as one disenchanted former
devotee
describes him, 'a dangerous paedophile'.
It is one of the many imponderables of this story that the charges
against Sai Baba should have begun with a rotund and jocular concert pianist
from Llandudno.
David Bailey became a devotee of Sai Baba in 1994, at the age of 40,
drawn by an interest in the guru's reputation as a spiritual healer. 'I
couldn't see him as a God,' says Bailey, 'but I did think, this could be a
great holy man who has certain gifts.'
An extrovert man, Bailey quickly became a ubiquitous and popular
figure
among devotees. He travelled all over the world, speaking and performing at
meetings and would visit the ashram in India three or four times a year,
often
performing during darshan and teaching music to students at the Sathya Sai
Baba
College. Over the course of four years Bailey claims to have had more than
100
interviews with Baba. At Baba's instigation, Bailey married a fellow
devotee,
and together they edited a magazine to propagate Sai Baba's teachings. But
the
closer he came to Sai Baba, Bailey told me, the more his doubts multiplied.
The
'miracles', he concluded, were 'B-grade conjuring tricks', the healings a
myth,
and Baba's powers of being able to 'see into people's minds and lives'
merely a
clever use of information gleaned from others.
Bailey's dwindling faith was finally crushed when students from the
college came to him alleging that they had been sexually abused by the guru.
'They said, "Please sir, can you go back to England and help us." They were
unable to tell their parents because they were afraid of being disbelieved,
and
feared for their personal safety.'
Shocked by the allegations, Bailey severed his association with Sai
Baba
and began to assemble a dossier of evidence from former devotees around the
world. The Findings is a chronicle of shattered illusions. It contains
allegations of fakery, con-trickery and financial irregularities in the
funding
of the hospital and over a Sai Baba project to supply water to villages
around
the ashram, which is habitually trumpeted as evidence of his munificence.
Some of these allegations have been aired before. A former devotee, B
Premenand, has made a virtual career out of debunking Sai Baba through his
publication, The Indian Skeptic. But the charges contained in The Findings
are
of an altogether different magnitude. They include verbatim accounts of
abuse
from devotees in Holland, Australia, Germany and India. Conny Larsson, a
well-known Swedish film actor, says that not only did Sai Baba make
homosexual
advances towards him, but he was also told by young male disciples of
advances
the guru had made on them.
In April, Glen Meloy - a retired management consultant and a prominent
Californian devotee of some 26 years standing - received a letter from an
American woman who had read The Findings on the internet. Her 15-year-old
son,
she said, had also been abused. Included in the letter was a four-page
statement from the boy himself alleging multiple sexual abuse.
Meloy launched his own internet campaign to spread the allegations.
The
effects of this have been enormous.
There has been a rash of defections from Sai Baba groups throughout
the
West. In Sweden the central group has closed down, and so too has a school
based on the Human Education Values programme devised by educationalists at
the
Puttaparthi college.
From other devotees, however, the response has been one of disbelief
and
denial. 'Sai Baba', says Bailey, 'is a simple sex maniac who's on an ego
trip,
after money, after power. He is a sheer conman.' No, say others, 'Sai Baba
is
God.'
The Young family are not among those listed in The Findings, but the
story of how they had come to Sai Baba was not atypical. In the early
Seventies, Jeff had become interested in 'the spiritual quest', initially
through psychedelics, then through yoga and meditation. He learned of Sai
Baba
through a friend, and in 1974, at the age of 18, visited India for the first
time, driven, he says, by 'an intense and burning desire to feel and
experience
God'.
The teachings of Sai Baba, he said, struck him to the core. 'The first
thing I read by him was, there is only one caste, the caste of humanity;
there
is only one language, the language of the heart; there is only one religion,
the religion of love; there is only one God, and he is omnipresent. That
made
perfect sense to me. He wasn't claiming to be part of any religion. It was
just
all about love.'
A month before leaving for India Jeff had a dream in which, he says,
he
was in a queue, waiting to see Sai Baba. Baba passed him by, then turned,
looked over his shoulder, winked and said the word 'talk'. On his first day
in
India he sat in a queue as Sai Baba walked past. 'Then he stopped and he
looked
over his shoulder, and he winked at me and he said "Talk" - exactly as he
had
done in the dream.'
Three weeks later Jeff had a private interview with Sai Baba. 'And I
remember feeling peace like I had never felt before; feeling loved like I'd
never been loved before.'
He returned to Los Angeles, where he lived in a community with fellow
Baba devotees. He met Carrie, whose childhood had been characterised by
parental abuse, and her teenage years by drug abuse. She too became a
devotee
of Sai Baba, putting her troubled past behind her. They married, moved to
the
Midwest and started to raise a family. Over the years, they visited Sai Baba
from time to time. They founded a community, home-schooled their children
according to his teachings, and strove to lead a life of purity and
self-discipline based on the principles of 'Love All, Serve All'.
Then, in 1995, things began to change. Their son, Sam, who was now 16,
visited the ashram with a family friend and was singled out for a private
interview with Sai Baba. Eighteen months later, the Youngs returned to
Puttaparthi; again Sai Baba singled out Sam and called him and the family
for
an interview. 'He made [a big fuss of] our group,' said Jeff. 'He
materialised
a ring for my son. He told everybody that Sam had been a great Shirdi Sai
devotee in a previous life - he just poured it on.'
During the course of that visit, the Youngs were called for seven
interviews, while Sam had some 20 private meetings. The family felt
blissfully
privileged. Baba advised Jeff on his business, signed the bylaws for their
community and told them that one day he would come to their home. He
materialised rings, watches, bracelets, gave them robes and the silk lungi
he
wore next to his skin. 'People were saying, what's with you guys?' said
Jeff.
'One guy actually said to me, when I die I want to come back as you. And
Baba
was telling us not to talk a lot, to keep it quiet, because it causes
jealousy
in others - which is true.'
The following year, the family returned to Puttaparthi three times. On
each occasion they would be gifted with two or three interviews. Sam had
twice
as many. 'We had no idea what was going on,' said Jeff. 'We'd ask Sam, and
he'd
say Baba was talking about his future. Every day there'd be another watch, a
ring. We thought maybe our son deserved this attention because he'd done so
much for Shirdi Sai. We just rationalised things. You can rationalise
everything.'
In 1995, Sam had come to his father. In a private interview, he said,
Sai
Baba had 'materialised' some oil in his hand, unbuttoned Sam's trousers and
rubbed his genitals. Jeff told his son he had had a similar experience when
he
first met Sai Baba at 18. 'I said to Sam, what did you think about it? He
said
he didn't feel there was anything sexual about it; it was like Sai Baba was
doing his job. And I'd kind of had that experience. A doctor gives a boy an
exam. I'd taken it as some kind of healing.' Thereafter, Sam said nothing
about
his experiences.
What had actually occurred was this: from anointing with oil, Sam told
me, Sai Baba's advances had grown progressively more abusive and forceful.
Sai
Baba, he said, had kissed him, fondled him and attempted to force him to
perform oral sex, explaining that it was for 'purification'. On almost every
occasion Sai Baba had given him gifts of watches, rings, trinkets and cash,
in
total around $10,000. He had told him to say nothing to his parents.
So why had Sam continued to go into interviews, and to say nothing?
From
the day he was born, he said, he had been raised to believe that Sai Baba
was
God. 'All my life, that was my goal, to get an interview and have Sai Baba
talk
about my life. And then I get in there, and my mum's so happy out in the
crowd,
and then I see what's really in there for me. I'm thinking, maybe this is
for
love, and he might want to be experiencing that with me, but I don't want
that.'
When Sam asked Baba why he was doing this, he would tell him it was
because Sam was 'a special devotee - that it was a great blessing'. When Sam
attempted to resist, he said, Baba would threaten not to call his parents
for
any more interviews. 'I felt obligations, to my parents, our friends, all
the
thousands of people sitting outside who all wanted to be in the position I
was
in, not knowing what was really there.
'And then the big thing was the concept that he is God, from day one,
so
when he says, don't tell anybody.'
In fact, Sam did tell somebody. He confided what was happening to two
other American teenagers who were students at the Puttaparthi college. They
had
had similar experiences. 'They justified it as a divine experience. But we
didn't talk about it too much because of the idea that he was omniscient,
that
he'd know what we were talking about and what was in our heads.
'If you listen to what Baba says, he's talking about taking charge of
your life, and I was thinking, "I'm with you, so everything must be good."
But
he was doing things to me that I didn't want to do, and I was just letting
it
happen.'
In 1998, according to Sam, Sai Baba attempted to rape him. The
following
year, the day before the family were leaving for Puttaparthi, he told his
father he did not want to see Sai Baba alone, without specifying why. Jeff
sensed something was amiss: 'I told him, you must always be true to your
conscience. The family don't care if we never have another interview again.'
In Puttaparthi Sam was again called for a private interview. When Sai
Baba attempted to get him to perform oral sex, Sam walked out for the last
time, although it would be some months before he summoned the nerve to tell
his
parents. Jeff said it took some weeks to 'process' what they were hearing.
'We
knew that Sam was telling the truth, but I still asked myself, what could
this
mean?'
The Youngs contacted a leading figure in the American Sai Baba
organisation. 'He said it must be some kind of test,' said Jeff, 'and for a
moment we felt better.'
Then Dr Michael Goldstein, the man in charge of the entire Baba
organisation in America, flew in from California to meet them. 'He said,
we've
got to talk to Baba about this; words are not enough; faith must be
restored.'
Goldstein immediately flew to India. He returned to tell the Youngs that Sai
Baba had told him 'he is pure', and that Goldstein accepted that. He asked
Jeff
if he thought his son might be 'delusional'. The Youngs no longer speak with
Goldstein.
I attempted to contact Goldstein in America, but was told he was away,
in
Puttaparthi. However, another senior devotee, a trustee for the Sathya Sai
Baba
Society of America, did return my call. Jerry Hague told me that he and his
wife had been devotees for 25 years. He said he was deeply shocked at the
allegations and could not begin to understand them.
'All I know in my heart is that Swami is the purest of the purest, and
that everything he does is for the highest good of everybody. If other
people
feel something else, that's how they feel. It's a mystery to me, and that's
how
I'm leaving it. I just know in my heart what I've found.'
This denial - Sai Baba is God, God doesn't do these things - was a
theme
that was echoed by innumerable other devotees I spoke to in America and
Britain. One woman told me the allegations were 'utterly inconsistent' with
her
experience of Sai Baba over the past 30 years. Others said they were
convinced
they were a result of 'delusions', or 'the projections' of boys and young
men
at a difficult time sexually.
Surfing the internet, I came upon a site called The Sai Critic,
established by some devotees to answer The Findings and to 'counsel' those
whose faith might be wavering in the face of the allegations. The anonymous
authors of the site urge devotees to believe only their own experiences and
quote an aphorism of Sai Baba's: "When doubt walks in the front door, faith
walks out out the back door. Keep your doors closed."
Addressing the allegations of sexual abuse, the authors state that
because 'Sai Baba is a divine incarnation, one cannot attribute human sexual
motives to him, nor interpret him in the light of human sexual experience.'
In
other words, because Sai Baba is divine, whatever he does is beyond
understanding and beyond accountability.
Among those people named in The Findings is Dr D Bhatia, the former
head
of the blood bank at the Sathya Sai Super Speciality Hospital, who, it is
claimed, had a longstanding sexual relationship with Sai Baba. Bhatia
resigned
from his post at the hospital in December 1999 and is now an administrator
at a
hospital in New Delhi.
Contacted by phone, Bhatia said that he had become a devotee of Sai
Baba
in 1971, at the age of 20, and that he had had sexual relations with Sai
Baba
for a total of '15 or 16 years'. In that time, he said, he was also aware
that
Sai Baba had relations with 'many, many' students from the college and
school,
and with devotees from overseas.
Bhatia said he had never questioned Sai Baba over his conduct, or
Baba's
explanation that it was 'God's activity'. 'Devotion,' said Bhatia, 'doesn't
need any justification. In my philosophy of life, everything good and
everything bad belongs to God. That is my belief, and that is why whatever
he
does, does not affect me in that way.' Was he saying that he still believed
Sai
Baba is God? 'Yes.'
Like many people I spoke to, Isaac Tigrett described himself as a
spiritual seeker. Among devotees, Tigrett is famous as the man who built Sai
Baba's hospital. Co-founder of the Hard Rock restaurant chain, Tigrett sold
out
his share in the business in the early Nineties and donated $20 million to
build the Sathya Sai Super Speciality Hospital. He went on to found another
chain of club-restaurants in America, the House of Blues, and now lives in
London, where he is setting up the Spirit Channel, an internet site
dedicated
to exploring spiritual teachings.
A large, barrel-chested man in his early 50s, dressed in an immaculate
double-breasted suit, Tigrett has the ostentatious appearance and expansive
charm of a theatrical impresario. We met at his London club. Tigrett drank
beer
and smoked cigarettes; a man, it seemed, firmly grounded in the real world.
By normal standards, Tigrett's story of how he came to Sai Baba is
extraordinary; by the standards of stories one hears of Sai Baba, it seems
almost commonplace. Born in the American South and raised as a Baptist,
Tigrett
had always had a curiosity about spiritual matters. In 1974, he told me, he
was
travelling in India, checking out the guru scene. Eating breakfast one
morning
in the dining-room of a hotel in northern India he heard a voice clearly
saying, 'You've come at last; I've been waiting for you.' Turning round, he
saw
a picture on the wall of Sai Baba, whom he had never heard of and knew
nothing
about.
He travelled immediately to Sai Baba's ashram. It was a festival day,
he
remembered; 5,000 people were gathered for darshan. 'He just came right over
to
me and said, "You've come at last; I've been waiting for you." ' Sai Baba
then
'materialised' vibhuti in Tigrett's hand. 'He said, wait here; we have many
things that we are going to do together.' It would be another 15 years, he
said, before Baba spoke to him again.
Tigrett said he was 'very cynical and very suspicious. I believe in
the
inner guru - following your own heart - not the outer guru. It had never
occurred to me that it would be some sort of outer master that would draw me
down the path.'
Over the next 15 years, however, he found himself subject to a range
of
'amazing teachings' that he attributed to Sai Baba. The most extreme
occurred
in 1976. It was a time, he said, when his doubts about Sai Baba were at
their
greatest. Driving a Porsche Turbo through the Hollywood Hills after a
late-night party, he came off the road at 80mph and crashed through a
barricade
into a 200ft gully. 'I had no seatbelt on. At the moment I knew I was going
to
die I could feel pressure on my shoulders, and I look and, seemingly to me,
there is Sai Baba sitting beside me with his arms around me. The car hits
the
ground and turns more than a dozen times before it lands upright, totally
demolished. And there's not a scratch on me. I'm thinking, this can't be
true.
Was it him? Was it my imagination? Did I call him and somehow create this
belief in my mind that he was there?'
The next day Tigrett flew to India, 'to thank him'. Tigrett spent
three
months sitting in darshan, 'and he didn't so much as look at me once'. It
would
be another 13 years, he said, before Sai Baba finally summoned him for an
interview.
'I said, why did I have to wait so long? He said, "Big ego." '
These things were difficult to explain, Tigrett said, impossible to
explain. He does not believe that Sai Baba is God, he said. He would not
even
describe himself a devotee. 'But to me, it's as simple as this: whatever it
was
I experienced changed my life; whatever it was he did kept me on a spiritual
path, for which I am ever grateful. And I will never be able to deny that
experience; nothing he could do could change that.'
How then could Tigrett square his experiences of Sai Baba with the
allegations of sexual abuse? 'I can't. There's two camps here. Are you
against
Sai Baba or are you for him? I think if you say you're for him, you're just
in
denial, saying these things didn't happen, that it's made-up stories. I
don't
believe that. I believe the allegations are true. And if you're against,
you're
supposed to take up your sword and kill him. I'm not in either of those
camps.
For me, the only meaningful relationship with him is the personal one, and
everyone has to make a personal decision based on that.'
As to trying to understand Sai Baba, Tigrett said he had given up on
that
many years ago. 'I know that he materialises things, because I've seen him
do
it. And I know he fakes materialisations, because I've him seen him do that
too. I don't know why. Maybe it's just a game.'
Tigrett said he believed that everything Sai Baba does is 'a
teaching'.
Perhaps, he said, the growing scandal was also a teaching, a way of forcing
devotees to stop worshipping the form of Sai Baba, and instead consider the
divinity within themselves. 'I remember him telling me three or four years
ago
that people would be leaving him in droves. He said, "I'm not a new
religion;
I'm not a personality cult. People come here to see miracles, to have a
vacation, and they don't even get the teachings." He said this several
times,
it's about following the inner guru, not following Sai Baba.'
Tigrett has been back to the ashram several times since then, he said,
but he has never again been called for interview. He sipped at his beer. For
those who worship Sai Baba as a god, he said, the allegations 'must be
totally
devastating. Because they've lost their god, their master. But I never saw
him
as God.' How then would he describe Sai Baba? Tigrett shook his head: 'A
total
and complete enigma.'
Among the most remarkable facets of this controversy has been the role
of
the internet. Even 10 years ago, it is doubtful whether the allegations
against
Sai Baba would have spread so far and so fast. In a discourse in October
1999,
Sai Baba instructed devotees that 'Swami has nothing to do with internet
[sic].
Not only now, even in future [sic] also. You should not indulge in such
wrong
activities.' But in the realms of cyberspace the accusations, the
justifications and the denials continue to multiply. Alongside the lurid
accounts of abuse, there are accounts of miracles, healings and calls to
faith.
Conny Larsson has set up a support group for those claiming abuse by
Sai
Baba, and says he receives some 20-30 emails a day from victims 'crying out
for
help. You cannot leave these people in the desert.'
In America, the campaign organised by Glen Meloy has concentrated on
'e-bombing' copies of the allegations to senators, the White House, the FBI
and
Indian newspapers. The most conspicuous success of the campaign came in
September when Unesco withdrew its co-sponsorship and participation from an
education conference at Puttaparthi, citing 'deep concern' over the
allegations
of sexual abuse.
Meloy is also attempting to bring a class action lawsuit against the
leaders of the Sai groups in America that, he said, have 'conspired to cover
this up'.
In this country, similar representations have been made to the Charity
Commissioners (there is a British branch of the organisation registered in
this
country) and to the Home Office, urging them to issue a public warning to
visitors to India about the allegations, and pointing out that failure to
warn
could constitute a breach of the Government's international obligations
under
UN Human Rights covenants.
For all the allegations laid against him over the years, Sai Baba has
never been charged with any crime, sexual or otherwise. And his exalted
position in India has until now kept him safely insulated from any kind of
public inquiry.
In June 1993 he was the subject of an apparent assassination attempt
when
five young men broke into his private residence. Two of his personal
attendants
were stabbed to death and four of the assailants were shot dead by police
'in
self-defence'. Sai Baba allegedly escaped by rushing out of his room and
activating an alarm system. In a subsequent discourse, he said the attack
was
caused by 'jealousy'. Dr Bhatia told me he believed the attack was linked to
Baba's sexual activities. The guru was never interrogated by police over the
attack. The Indian press raised the obvious question: if Sai Baba is
omniscient, why couldn't he see it coming?
Among former devotees, there is a sense of shock, betrayal, anger - a
hunger, if not for revenge, then for accountability. We know that many
victims
have been physically molested,' Glen Meloy told me, 'but in reality all the
former devotees have been spiritually raped because we chose to believe that
this man was the highest. I certainly considered him to be the God of gods,
the
creator of all creation, my friend, my everything. The intense desire I have
to
expose him now is directly proportionate to the amount of devotion I gave
him.'
Meloy said he shredded all the pictures he had of Sai Baba in his
house
the moment he heard the allegations. He knew of former devotees who were now
selling their homes, determined to purge any taint of association with Sai
Baba
from their lives. 'We completely gave away our power.
And now we can look back and see what we did. You cry and out and
wonder,
how in the world could this happen?'
How does this happen? In an imperfect world, we crave some evidence of
perfection, some symbol of ineluctable goodness. The guru becomes the
expression of the dream.
Sitting in the restaurant in a small, homely Midwest town, Jeff Young
struggled to understand what had led him to believe that an Indian guru
could
be God. Thinking back to his first interview - 'I remember feeling peace
like I
had never felt before' - he now thinks he was simply deluded. 'There were so
many people who desired to have that interview, I convinced myself it was so
extraordinary and special and I must be in bliss, because I'd been chosen.'
Now, he said, he could see how he had ignored all the contradictions,
manufactured explanations for anything that didn't fit. 'I knew the
materialisations were fake. I'd sit there and watch him pulling things from
under a pillow. It was totally obvious. And he'd see that we saw and he'd
kind
of laugh. But I just thought, he's testing me to see if I'm focused on the
love
or on the external. Because Baba says, love my uncertainty. You'll never be
able to understand the avatar.'
Looking back, he said, when Sam finally told him about the sexual
abuse,
he didn't find it difficult to believe at all. 'I realised, I'd really known
this for a long time but didn't really know it.' Jeff shook his head. 'It
goes
so far into your mind. You ask yourself, how could millions of people be
wrong?
How could millions of people be tricked? I think a lot of people deny these
things are happening because they're afraid of being embarrassed. I felt
that
myself. We'd spent 23 years raising our family to believe in him, going
upstream against a river. You think, how could I have been so wrong?'
When Sam told Jeff and Carrie the truth about his meetings with Sai
Baba,
Jeff said, both of them threw their arms around him. 'We said, that's it; we
don't care if we never see Sai Baba again. He told us it was the happiest
day
of his life.'
Since leaving Sai Baba, he said, the family had been trying to find a
basis for faith in their own hearts. He believed following Sai Baba's
teachings
for 23 years had made him a more humble, honest and kind human being. 'My
wife
hates him for what he did to our son. I feel betrayed. I think it's
despicable.
But as I look back over my life I would have to say that I honestly don't
regret anything that's happened and that I've grown through all of it.'
Finding
Sai Baba, and then discarding him, 'I'm happier now than at any point in my
life.'
Sam said the experience had brought him to see his life in 'a whole
other
perspective. It made me realise, all my life I've spent following some other
human being around, trying to do what he says.' Freed from the prison of
false
belief, he said, 'I'm just trying to live up to myself.'
Whether he is divine, 'a demented demonic force', as Glen Meloy now
describes him, or simply the most accomplished fakir and confidence
trickster,
Sai Baba has said nothing publicly about the allegations laid against him.
When
the Telegraph Magazine contacted K CHAKRAvarthi, secretary of the
Puttaparthi
ashram, he said, 'We have no time for these matters. I have nothing to say'
and
terminated the call.
Sai Baba's principal English translator, Anil Kumar, was more
forthcoming. Every great religious teacher, he said, had faced criticism in
their lifetime. Such allegations had been levelled at Sai Baba since
childhood,
'but with every criticism he becomes more and more triumphant'. Kumar said
he
considered the controversy 'all part of [Sai Baba's] divine plan. It's a
paddy
field with husks around the rice. Eventually all the unwanted parts will go
to
leave the true substance inside.'
Jerry Hague, the American trustee, seemed to share that view. Sai
Baba,
he told me, would never say anything about all this. 'Why would he? That's
the
human way. That's not his way.
'You can try and write about this,' he cautioned me, 'but you won't be
able to make any intellectual sense of it. Nobody can.'
'Some people,' said Jeff Young, 'when we tell them our story, they
drop
Sai Baba like a rock. Some just don't want to hear it. And others hear it
all
and say, well, he's God! It's all a test. I laughed when I heard that.
Because
to me, passing the test is having the courage to stand up on your own two
feet
and say this is not acceptable.'
It's a curious thing, said Young, but when he first told his friends
and
fellow devotees he was leaving Sai Baba, he had the sense - 'and I still
feel
that way' - that Baba was 'standing over my shoulder, saying, 'Good boy,
you're
doing a good job.'
ziko
<usk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Jos je veci greh zavoditi, varati ljudi predstavljajuci se kao Bog na osnovu
>
>Visvamitra je stvorio celu planetu -- nije mu na pamet palo da se proglasi
Zar ne poznaješ izreku: Guru je Bog.
Ukoliko kritikujete veru drugih, onda vaša vlastita pobožnost nije
prava jer, ako ste sami ispravni, vi ćete znati ceniti ispravnost
drugih. Greške drugih možete videti samo ako ih i sami posedujete,
inače ne.
iznogud
On Wed, 2 May 2001 21:28:23 +0200, you wrote:
>Medjutim, sta je bilo sa Hristom nakon smrti? Bio je u grobu! Sta je
>bilo sa Lazarom koga je vaskrsao? I Lazar je bio u grobu, a Hristos je
>stanje u kome se Lazar nalazio uporedio sa snom.
Mislim da postoji sustinska razlika, zbog koje cu upotrebiti ovu
terminologiju : Hristos je vaskrsao, a Lazar je oziveo. Hristovo
vaskrsenje je spasonosne prirode. Lazar je ustao, ali time nije bio
udostojen spasenja, samo je oziveo bez neke sustinske promene.
>A sta je sa onim stihom: "I niko se ne pope na nebo osim onaj
>koji sidje s neba, sin covecij koji je na nebu." (Jovan 3:13)?!
Treba znati tumaciti taj stih. Ovako napisan bez konteksta i
poznavanja namere Jovanove, bez verodostojnog predanja koje bi nam
prenelo taj bitan preduslov za razumevanje svih konotacija koje ima
taj stih, ne bih preporucio da se donose prenagljeni sudovi.
Poznato mi je da se na slicne momente u vedskoj literaturi mogu pisati
tomovi, a secam se da je i u jevrejskoj tradiciji bilo slucajeva, npr.
nasiroko je pisano i o znacaju upotrebe priloga 'ha' u stihu 'Berasit
bera elohim et *ha* samaim va et *ha* erec', tj. 'U pocetku stvori
Gospod *bas* nebo i (bas) zemlju. Zato postoje komentari u tumacenja,
koji nam crno belu sliku konvertuju u kolor i izazivaju u nama
spoznaju kojom se ta slika pretvara u 3D ...
Zbog informacija o prirodi duhovnog i materijalnog sveta iz vedskog
predanja i mojeg razumevanja Hristove prirode, sasvim mi je prirodno
da prihvatim izjavu iz ovog stiha, dopustajuci istovremeno i da se
drugi ljudi spasu i popnu na nebo pre ikakvog suda. Bez obzira koliko
mi prirodno izgledalo, ovo je tumacenje izvan svega sto hriscanstvo u
bilo kom meni poznatom obliku uci, tako da ne bih da objasnjavam kakve
to alternativne teorije postoje, niti je to bitno. Moja poruka je da
mnoge za hriscansku teologiju kljucne biblijske izjave iz moje
perspektive imaju toliko skrivenih i suptilnih nagovestaja, da je
bolje ipak ostati oprezan pri tumacenju i slediti ono sto uci
predanje. Tako mozda neces biti na svom sedistu, ali ces barem ostati
u vozu.
>> Ne mora sve pisati u Bibliji, zato postoji teologija.
>
>Da, ali teologija koja se bazira na Bibliji. Ja samo Bibliju smatram za
>autoritet, i nista vise.
In medias res. Stvar je u sredini. Treba biti umeren ...
Buddha se prosvetlio kada je cuo razgovor na camcu koji je plovio
rekom - muzicar je poducavao ucenika kako ce zica na instrumentu puci
ako je previse zategne, a ako je previse labava onda se nece cuti
zvuk. Umetnik ce znati kako da proizvede zvuk, gde je taj optimalni
napon. Fanatik nikada ne moze biti ovakav umetnik. Treba biti
striktan, ali ne fanatican, jer se pod time podrazumeva slepo
zagovaranje necega za sta ne postoji sopstveno autenticno iskustvo kao
merilo, tj. ne postoji ta umetnicka majstorija. Postoje i sekte, cini
mi se neki 'samaricani' ...?, koji su "striktni", npr. i danas peku
jagnjad na nacin koji je nagovesten u Starom zavetu?, kopaju jame koje
pune gorivom, pa mesom, pa pokriju i potpale. Zbog necega je njima
bitno da zadrze taj arhaicni formalizam. Nemam nista protiv, samo se
pitam kakav ce biti njihov dozivljaj Boga - isto tako arhaican, kroz
svesnost osoba koje su pripadale kulturi od pre par hiljada godina,
ili ce imati svoju religioznu svest, primerenu trenutku u kome se
nalaze. Jer je moguce imati autenticnu religioznu svest koja je
aktuelna, zato sto je vera zivi odnos sa Bogom, koji je stoga uvek
aktuelan. A to znaci da se mnoge 'istine' upgrade-uju, objasnjavaju se
na novi nacin, jer kako vremenom evoluira religiozna svest i raste
kapacitet da se razluce i tananije istine, tako se i tumacenja Pisma
menjaju u skladu sa vremenom. Hriscanstvo ne bi bilo
katolicka/univerzalna religija kada ne bi moglo da se pronadje u datim
okolnostima.
aleksandar uskokov
osnovu
> >
> >Visvamitra je stvorio celu planetu -- nije mu na pamet palo da se
proglasi
>
Guru je Bog u smislu da ga treba sluziti i obozavati kao Bog zato sto je
BOZJI PREDSTAVNIK. To mu NI U KOM SLUCAJU ne daje za pravo da naziva sebe
Bogom i da dozvoljava da ga drugi tako zovu (ili Bhagavan). Pravi guru zna
da je tek sicusna dusa, uvek i u svim okolnostima podredjena Bogu, i ne
zloupotrebljava moci koje je stekao (a koje su tek majusni delici Bozje
raskosi) kako bi druge ubedio u svoju apsolutnu Bozanstvenost.
> Ukoliko kritikujete veru drugih, onda vaąa vlastita poboľnost nije
> prava jer, ako ste sami ispravni, vi ćete znati ceniti ispravnost
> drugih. Greąke drugih moľete videti samo ako ih i sami posedujete,
> inače ne.
Je l'? Cudna neka logika. Ako vidim da je neko lopov i kazem da je lopov, to
bi znacilo da sam i sam lopov. Jer, kako bih inace to video?!
Pismo A.C. Bhaktivedante Swamija Prabhupade Sai Babi:
Dear Sai Baba, just recently in the Blitz paper, published on-give the
date-we were surprised to find one article "God is an Indian." And you have
claimed to become an incarnation of God to save the human society. What is
the
ground of your claiming as incarnation? And what you have done to save the
human society? Will you explain for enlightenment of us. Or many of us. We
have
got the list of incarnations recorded in the Vedic scriptures and their
respective activities also. So where is that record in the Vedic scripture
about your appearing as incarnation? Lord Krsna's incarnation is fully
described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam.
- SRILA PRABHUPADA
ISKCON Founder-Acarya
September 13, 1976
Odgovor, naravno, nikada nije stigao.
PS. Ne smetaju meni druge religije. Stavise, volim ih i vidim ih kao Bozje
ocitovanje za odredjene ljude u skladu s odredjenim okolnostima. Tvrditi da
je moja religija jedina ispravna znacilo bi ogranicavati Bozje prisustvo.
Ono sto mi smeta jeste zloupotreba religije zarad licne koristi i iz licnih
pobuda. Smeta mi i u mojoj religiji i kod drugih.
Enoh
> >bilo sa Lazarom koga je vaskrsao? I Lazar je bio u grobu, a Hristos
je
> >stanje u kome se Lazar nalazio uporedio sa snom.
>
> Mislim da postoji sustinska razlika, zbog koje cu upotrebiti ovu
> terminologiju : Hristos je vaskrsao, a Lazar je oziveo. Hristovo
> vaskrsenje je spasonosne prirode. Lazar je ustao, ali time nije bio
> udostojen spasenja, samo je oziveo bez neke sustinske promene.
To je jasno. Lazar je vaskrsnut na ovaj zivot, a Hristos na onaj drugi.
Medjutim, ja sam ovo napisao kako bih primetio ne gde su vaskrsnuli, vec
to gde su se nalazili pre tog vaskrsenja. Lazar nije otisao posle smrti
ni u raj, ni u pakao, niti je "reinkarnirao", da se tako izrazim, vec je
bio u grobu.
> Zbog informacija o prirodi duhovnog i materijalnog sveta iz vedskog
> predanja i mojeg razumevanja Hristove prirode, sasvim mi je prirodno
> da prihvatim izjavu iz ovog stiha, dopustajuci istovremeno i da se
> drugi ljudi spasu i popnu na nebo pre ikakvog suda.
> Moja poruka je da
> mnoge za hriscansku teologiju kljucne biblijske izjave iz moje
> perspektive imaju toliko skrivenih i suptilnih nagovestaja, da je
> bolje ipak ostati oprezan pri tumacenju i slediti ono sto uci
> predanje.
Evo sta govori apostol Pavle: "...svi cemo pomreti, i svi cemo se
pretvoriti. Ujedanput, u trenucu oka u poslednjoj trubi; jer ce
zatrubiti i mrtvi ce ustati u neraspadljivi, a mi cemo se pretvoriti..."
(1. Korincanima 15:51.52) Mislim da su ovi stihovi jasni i bez znanja
predanja. Svi cemo biti mrtvi, ali cemo kako tako vaskrsnuti na sud.
Medjutim, moje je pitanje: kada? Apostol kaze da ce to da bude _u
poslednjoj trubi_, a mislim da nema potrebe da sada obrazlazem kada ce
da zatrubi ta poslednja truba (Oktrivenje nasiroko govori o tome, a
trube ce trubiti pred Hristov dolazak).
ziko
<usk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Guru je Bog u smislu da ga treba sluziti i obozavati kao Bog zato sto je
>BOZJI PREDSTAVNIK. To mu NI U KOM SLUCAJU ne daje za pravo da naziva sebe
>Bogom i da dozvoljava da ga drugi tako zovu (ili Bhagavan).
...''Morate razumeti razliku između Božanstva (kao Univerzalne svesti)
i Avatara (Božanskog u obliku)'', kaže Sai Baba i objašnjava:
''Univerzalna svest nije subjekt koji se menja. Avatar ima ime i oblik
i podložan je promeni svojom sopstvenom voljom. Univerzalna svest nema
ni ime ni oblik. Razlika između to dvoje može se ilustrovati primerom
Sunca i sunčevih zraka. Oni su jedno...''
>> Greške drugih možete videti samo ako ih i sami posedujete,
>> inače ne.
>
>Je l'? Cudna neka logika. Ako vidim da je neko lopov i kazem da je lopov, to
>bi znacilo da sam i sam lopov. Jer, kako bih inace to video?!
Ono čega nema u tebi ne možeš ni da primetiš. U očima svetog čoveka
svet je savršen, bezgrešan .
>Pismo A.C. Bhaktivedante Swamija Prabhupade Sai Babi:
>
>Odgovor, naravno, nikada nije stigao.
Ako želiš biser nije dovoljno da stojiš na obali i kritikuješ more ili
ga tučeš prutom. Ipak moraš da otplivaš od obale i zaroniš...
>PS. Ne smetaju meni druge religije. Stavise, volim ih i vidim ih kao Bozje
>ocitovanje za odredjene ljude u skladu s odredjenim okolnostima. Tvrditi da
>je moja religija jedina ispravna znacilo bi ogranicavati Bozje prisustvo.
>Ono sto mi smeta jeste zloupotreba religije zarad licne koristi i iz licnih
>pobuda. Smeta mi i u mojoj religiji i kod drugih.
>
Ovome nema prigovora. Međutim, opasno je donositi prebrze zaključke na
osnovu nekoliko 'rekla kazala' informacija sa interneta.
P.S. Razmisli malo o onome što si sam napisao (ogranicavati Bozje
prisustvo).
Ivan Nikolic
Enoh <mve...@eunet.yu> wrote in message news:9d0ugt$7gg$1...@news2.EUnet.yu...
> Evo sta govori apostol Pavle: "...svi cemo pomreti, i svi cemo se
> pretvoriti. Ujedanput, u trenucu oka u poslednjoj trubi; jer ce
> zatrubiti i mrtvi ce ustati u neraspadljivi, a mi cemo se pretvoriti..."
> (1. Korincanima 15:51.52) Mislim da su ovi stihovi jasni i bez znanja
> predanja. Svi cemo biti mrtvi, ali cemo kako tako vaskrsnuti na sud.
> Medjutim, moje je pitanje: kada? Apostol kaze da ce to da bude _u
> poslednjoj trubi_, a mislim da nema potrebe da sada obrazlazem kada ce
> da zatrubi ta poslednja truba (Oktrivenje nasiroko govori o tome, a
> trube ce trubiti pred Hristov dolazak).
Da li bi ipak mogao da navedes zadnju trubu ? Kod mene u kuci je pogresna
Biblija- katolicka, da ti ne objasnjavam kako se bezveze nasla u kuci
pravoslavaca.... Znam da je peta truba bila "Pelen" a pelen na ukrainskom
znaci- Cernobilj ! Znaci nije jos mnogo daleko... No, ja ne vrujem u to, jer
su mnogi proroci u mnogim stvarima omanuli...
Roger
Ivan Nikolic <ivan...@EUnet.yu> wrote in message
news:9d1b4m$cc2$6...@news2.EUnet.yu...
>
> Da li bi ipak mogao da navedes zadnju trubu ? Kod mene u kuci je pogresna
> Biblija- katolicka, da ti ne objasnjavam kako se bezveze nasla u kuci
> pravoslavaca.... Znam da je peta truba bila "Pelen" a pelen na ukrainskom
> znaci- Cernobilj ! Znaci nije jos mnogo daleko... No, ja ne vrujem u to,
jer
> su mnogi proroci u mnogim stvarima omanuli...
zar nisi pomislio da su oni koji su "omanuli", u stvari tumaci tih tekstova?
...sto se tice Cernobila...on se dogodio zar ne?....
>
>
Enoh
> > pretvoriti. Ujedanput, u trenucu oka u poslednjoj trubi; jer ce
> > zatrubiti i mrtvi ce ustati u neraspadljivi, a mi cemo se
> > pretvoriti..." (1. Korincanima 15:51.52) Mislim da su ovi stihovi
> > jasni i bez znanja predanja. Svi cemo biti mrtvi, ali cemo kako tako
> > vaskrsnuti na sud. Medjutim, moje je pitanje: kada? Apostol kaze da
> > ce to da bude _u poslednjoj trubi_, a mislim da nema potrebe da
> > sada obrazlazem kada ce da zatrubi ta poslednja truba (Oktrivenje
> > nasiroko govori o tome, a trube ce trubiti pred Hristov dolazak).
>
> Da li bi ipak mogao da navedes zadnju trubu ? Kod mene u kuci je
> pogresna Biblija- katolicka, da ti ne objasnjavam kako se bezveze
> nasla u kuci pravoslavaca....
To je ona truba koja ce da zatrubi kada Hristos bude dolazio, a "dana ni
casa" kada ce se to dogoditi mi ne mozemo da znamo. Sve trube u
Otkrivenju su simbolicnog karaktera i donose odredjene dogadjaje sa
sobom, ova truba ce samo da obznanjuje dolazak Hrista. "Jer ce sam
Gospod sa zapovescu, sa glasom arhandjelovim i sa trubom Bozjom sici s
neba; i mrtvi u Hristu vaskrsnuce najpre" (1. Solunjanima 4:16).
> Znam da je peta truba bila "Pelen" a pelen na ukrainskom
> znaci- Cernobilj ! Znaci nije jos mnogo daleko...
Nisam mislio na te trube koje simbolicki predskazuju odredjene
dogadjaje. Mislio sam na Hristov dolazak koji ce biti propracen sa
trubama. A svrha mog pominjaja svega toga je ta sto se govori da ce
mrtvi vaskrsnuti kada Hristos bude dolazio, u toj poslednjoj trubi.
> No, ja ne vrujem u to, jer
> su mnogi proroci u mnogim stvarima omanuli...
Postujem tudja misljenja. Ali, moras da pazis i koji proroci. Mozes li
mi navesti ijedno biblijsko prorocanstvo koje se nije ispunilo (osim
naravno ona koja tek treba da se ispune)?
Pozdrav,
Enoh
Ivan Nikolic
> Postujem tudja misljenja.
>Ali, moras da pazis i koji proroci. Mozes li
> mi navesti ijedno biblijsko prorocanstvo koje se nije ispunilo (osim
> naravno ona koja tek treba da se ispune)?
Nisam toliki poznavalac Biblije da bih mogao da komentarisem, reci cu ti
kada je procitam :)
Roger
predanost <pred...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9cnco5$39b$5...@zmaj.etf.bg.ac.yu...
>
> Ti bi voleo da cujes kako jedan musliman, ili budista, ili svi drugi
> nehriscani, hvale na sva usta samo hriscanstvo, mada nisu hriscani.
> E to neces nikada cuti!
...interesantno je kako vi koji ste "predani" veri, raspravljate o tome koja
bi se vera najvise dopala Bogu...:))
Bog je coveka nacinio prema sopstvenom liku, stoga ce onaj koji zeli
prvenstvo u onome u sta veruje, ili u onome sto izucava,shvatiti da je
odgovor u njemu samome. Jedino na taj nacin on biva oslobodjen sebicne
zelje, jer shvata da je on sam provodnik kosmicke volje i da svaka njegova
rec moze da ima stvaralacki akt. Naravno, te promene su subjektivne jer se
zbivaju u svesti coveka . Cak ako neko i kaze: "hriscanstvo je najbolja
vera"...ili ma kojoj veri da kazemo da je najbolja i jedina....to ne menja
Istinu: Bog je onoliko u nama koliko smo u stanju da ga pronadjemo u
sebi...a dali ce neko to uspeti na ovaj ili onaj nacin-nebitno... Glupo je
pitati koja je ljubav Bogu milija.....jedino sto znam...sto onaj deo
bozanskog u meni tvrdi je: Bog NE VOLI mrznju izmedju onih koje je stvorio.
Kad raspravljate o tome ko je imao vise mucenika dali razmisljate o onome
sto je SADA? Gde je ta vera oko koje se raspravljate sada? Sta se desilo u
Bosni? Sta se desilo u Hrvatskoj? U ime kojeg Boga?....Sta ce se desavati
ubuduce dok se ne svati da smo svi mi nastali od istog izvora, a da su
potocici i reke koje su proistekle iz njega ista voda, samo nas je obala
razdvojila te ne vidimo druge od sopstvenih.
pozdrav
Roger
Mladen Adamovic
> kada je procitam :)
Ivane, to moze potrajati godinama :)))
Leopold
Roger wrote in message <9d3t5n$4fl$1...@news.InfoSky.Net>...
Tetka Ro, rekla si sve sto o ovoj temi ima da se kaze. Rekao je to i
Patrijarh Pavle dok se gluposti ovde jos nisu rasplamsale. Jasno se secam
njegovih reci "Svi smo mi braca, samo nerazumna".
_/ G R E E T I N G S :))) \_
\ leo...@EUnet.yu /
Roger
Leopold <leo...@EUnet.yu> wrote in message
news:9d4t7h$oqv$1...@news.eunet.yu...
> Tetka Ro, ...........
jeli Leopolde, sta tebi znaci ovo "tetka Ro"?....to je neka tvoja posalica
ili......?
pozdrav
Roger
Leopold
znas, pronadji negde kasetu sa predstavom "Radovan III".
_/ G R E E T I N G S :))) \_
\ leo...@EUnet.yu /
Roger wrote in message <9d58gp$9hk$1...@news.InfoSky.Net>...
Roger
Leopold <leo...@EUnet.yu> wrote in message
> >jeli Leopolde, sta tebi znaci ovo "tetka Ro"?....to je neka tvoja
posalica
> >ili......?
> >pozdrav
> >Roger
> >
da
> znas, pronadji negde kasetu sa predstavom "Radovan III".
....i ti sebe smatras za osobu koja moze govoriti o duhovnosti?
to moze biti samo duhovito...i nista vise
pozdrav
Roger
odgovor
koju nema nikakve sumnje, uputstvo je svima onima koji se budu Allaha bojali;
. i onima koji budu vjerovali u ono sto se objavljuje tebi i u ono sto je
objavljeno prije tebe, i onima koji u onaj svijet budu cvrsto vjerovali.
Njima ce Gospodar njihov na Pravi put ukazati i oni ce ono sto zele ostvariti.
Onima koji nece da vjeruju doista je svejedno - opominjao ih ti ili ne opominjao
- oni nece vjerovati.
Allah je zapecatio srca njihova i usi njihove, a pred ocima njihovim je koprena;
njih ceka patnja golema.
Hocu da razmislite za ove bozje reci.prijatno.
Leopold
Roger <aga_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9d6dem$kqp$1...@news.InfoSky.Net...
Tooo, tetka Ro, przhi me!
--
_/ G R E E T I N G S ! ! \_
\ leo...@EUnet.yu /
Roger
Leopold <leo...@EUnet.yu> wrote in message
>
> > da
> > > znas, pronadji negde kasetu sa predstavom "Radovan III".
> >
> >
> > ....i ti sebe smatras za osobu koja moze govoriti o duhovnosti?
> > to moze biti samo duhovito...i nista vise
>
> Tooo, tetka Ro, przhi me!
vidim prija ti prica na praznu temu...polovican pri informacijama kao i
uvek...
i moram opet da te ispravim jer "ona" nije tetka Ro...nego "tetka
Ru".....:))
Leopold
Roger wrote in message <9du38c$v9u$1...@news.InfoSky.Net>...
Josh, tetka Ro, josh!!! (ovih dan imam napade mazohizma ;)
BTW, jel' ti se svidela predstava?
_/ G R E E T I N G S :))) \_
\ leo...@EUnet.yu /
Leopold
Mladen Adamovic wrote in message <9e8157$194$4...@news.InfoSky.Net>...
>Leopold <leo...@EUnet.yu> wrote:
>> Tooo, tetka Ro, przhi me!
>
>Kako tetka przhi, a?
Tetka razvaljuje :))
_/ G R E E T I N G S :))) \_
\ leo...@EUnet.yu /
Mladen Adamovic
> >Kako tetka przhi, a?
> Tetka razvaljuje :))
A zna li tetka sta je centrifuga vesh mashine? :))))
Roger
Mladen Adamovic <ad...@infosky.net> wrote in message
news:9egasn$lvo$2...@news.InfoSky.Net...
Mladen Adamovic
> a zna li Adamovic sta je to sto ga navodi na ovakva pitanja?
ajde tetka ti SVE znas, ajde reci sta?
Roger
> Roger wrote:
> > a zna li Adamovic sta je to sto ga navodi na ovakva pitanja?
>
> ajde tetka ti SVE znas, ajde reci sta?
pa da krenemo od osnovne kulture npr...zatim nezrelosti, pa onda
nepromisljenosti (nemas licnog razloga nikoga na ovoj konfi na vredjas, cak
iako TI MISLIS da je to vredjanje a drugi da su to gluposti), zatim zbog
svojih unuarnjih razloga koje cu ostaviti tebi......:))
Leopold
Roger wrote in message <9en9j3$rs4$1...@news.InfoSky.Net>...
E, tetka, u ovom threadu treba da przis mene, a ne Mladena. On ti je tu
kao slucajni prolaznik koji pita sta se desava i nije ti nista kriv. Stvarno
ne vidim cime te je izazvao da njegove unutarnje razloge ostavljas njemu...
Roger
Leopold <leo...@EUnet.yu> wrote in message
Stvarno
> ne vidim cime te je izazvao da njegove unutarnje razloge ostavljas
njemu...
kad se vec nudis, evo ostavljam tebi "njegove unutarnje razloge".......:))
Leopold
Roger wrote in message <9epdtq$l41$1...@news.InfoSky.Net>...
Hehe, da li si vise zainteresovana za njegove spoljasnje atribute ili ga
u potpunosti odbacujes?
Roger
Leopold <leo...@EUnet.yu> wrote in message
> >> ne vidim cime te je izazvao da njegove unutarnje razloge ostavljas
> >njemu...
> >
> >kad se vec nudis, evo ostavljam tebi "njegove unutarnje
razloge".......:))
>
> Hehe, da li si vise zainteresovana za njegove spoljasnje atribute ili
ga u potpunosti odbacujes?
samo sam te poslusala i tebi ostavila ono sto si trazio, a sto se tice
necijih spoljasnjih atributa, ja to gledam ovako: lepota se radja iznutra i
odrazava na sopljasnjost, tako da Mladenovic nije u opasnosti, a koliko
vidim ni ti.....:))
Pera
Ne u popove i manastire.
Pera.
Leopold
Roger wrote in message <9er397$to$1...@news.InfoSky.Net>...
Ajd' za mene jos i mogu da razumem, ali ako ti se Mladen ne svidja kako
ti uopste mislis da se udas?
Roger
Leopold <leo...@EUnet.yu> wrote in message
> Ajd' za mene jos i mogu da razumem, ali ako ti se Mladen ne svidja
kako
> ti uopste mislis da se udas?
>
Mladen Adamovic
kako
> ti uopste mislis da se udas?
Hej, ali ko je rekao da ja hocu da se zenim?
Eto tetke tebi ja cu da odem u manastir ;).
Leopold
Mladen Adamovic wrote in message <9f32bg$lv$1...@news.InfoSky.Net>...
Pa da mi celog zivota prebacuje "Mladen ovo, Mladen ono...". Moracemo da
je udamo za Olivera, izlgeda...
Mladen Adamovic
> >Eto tetke tebi ja cu da odem u manastir ;).
>
> Pa da mi celog zivota prebacuje "Mladen ovo, Mladen ono...". Moracemo
da
> je udamo za Olivera, izlgeda...
Eh, ali tetka Ru Mladena ne poznaje a ne mora ga ni upoznati. Dok ne znas za
bolje, dobro ti je i ono sto imas :). Kad se naviknes na nesto dobro, onda
ti se tesko pomiriti sa necim losim, ne vazi dzaba kletva "dabogda imo pa
nemo". A otkud ti znas btw da ja vredim nesto? Para nemam, prodajem patike i
racunar da bih dao pare onom sto vice "dajpare dajpare aaaamin" a nisam ni
maestro u krevetu - ne desava mi se da me zove nepoznata riba i kaze "ej,
Mladene, cula sam da si ti najtigar, ocu da...". Tako da... ako oces da se
zenis... mozda ti i nisam neka konkurencija :))))).
btw, moram priznati da mi Oli nedostaje... OLI... OLI!!!!! NASLI SMO TI
ZENU!!!
[sala mala, osecam da ce posle ovoga Roger da me strpa u filter a moze i Oli
da se naljuti... jao niko me ne voli... pitam se zasto!!!]
Leopold
Mladen Adamovic wrote in message <9f3u3e$pg7$2...@news.InfoSky.Net>...
>Eh, ali tetka Ru Mladena ne poznaje a ne mora ga ni upoznati. Dok ne znas
za
>bolje, dobro ti je i ono sto imas :). Kad se naviknes na nesto dobro, onda
>ti se tesko pomiriti sa necim losim, ne vazi dzaba kletva "dabogda imo pa
>nemo". A otkud ti znas btw da ja vredim nesto? Para nemam, prodajem patike
i
>racunar da bih dao pare onom sto vice "dajpare dajpare aaaamin" a nisam ni
>maestro u krevetu - ne desava mi se da me zove nepoznata riba i kaze "ej,
>Mladene, cula sam da si ti najtigar, ocu da...". Tako da... ako oces da se
>zenis... mozda ti i nisam neka konkurencija :))))).
Potcejnujes sebe, a nisi ni svestan svojih mogucnosti. Falio ti je do
sada pravi podsticaj. A kada bi te tetka podstakla ti bi prosto podivljao. I
sta onda tu imam ja da trazim.
>btw, moram priznati da mi Oli nedostaje... OLI... OLI!!!!! NASLI SMO TI
>ZENU!!!
Hehe, ako ne odes u manastir tetka ce biti prva zena sa dva muza. Pa da!
Ako mogu pederi da imaju jednog muza zasto ona ne bi imala dva?
>[sala mala, osecam da ce posle ovoga Roger da me strpa u filter a moze i
Oli
>da se naljuti... jao niko me ne voli... pitam se zasto!!!]
Tetka te voli, samo se pravi :)
Mladen Adamovic
> sada pravi podsticaj. A kada bi te tetka podstakla ti bi prosto podivljao.
I
> sta onda tu imam ja da trazim.
Neka hvala, dosta mi je tog divljanja....
Sto ti malo ne divljas ;)
> Tetka te voli, samo se pravi :)
Ma svi me vole... samo se prave :)
Roger
Leopold <leo...@EUnet.yu> wrote in message
Leo> Potcejnujes sebe, a nisi ni svestan svojih mogucnosti. Falio ti je
do
Leo> sada pravi podsticaj. A kada bi te tetka podstakla ti bi prosto
podivljao. I
Leo> sta onda tu imam ja da trazim.
>
Leo> >btw, moram priznati da mi Oli nedostaje... OLI... OLI!!!!! NASLI SMO
TI
> >ZENU!!!
>
Leo> Hehe, ako ne odes u manastir tetka ce biti prva zena sa dva muza.
Pa da!
Leo> Ako mogu pederi da imaju jednog muza zasto ona ne bi imala dva?
>
Leo> >[sala mala, osecam da ce posle ovoga Roger da me strpa u filter a moze
i
> Oli
> Leo>da se naljuti... jao niko me ne voli... pitam se zasto!!!]
>
Leo> Tetka te voli, samo se pravi :)
evo naterao si me da priznam: moj izbor je Leo, pa jos ako je u znaku
lava...zabolece glava......:))))
(leopold je samo nekulturan a to se da promeniti...nije decko imao do sada
priliku da nauci...ali Mladen je nepopravljivo glup)
Roger
Milic <biv...@eunet.yu> wrote in message
news:9f6bht$5br$1...@news.eunet.yu...
L > [sala mala, osecam da ce posle ovoga Roger da me strpa u filter a moze i
> Oli
>L> da se naljuti... jao niko me ne voli... pitam se zasto!!!]
>
M> Mladjo, mi te volimo!
M> Mladjo, mi te volimo!
M> Mladjo, mi te volimo!
..he...a ja se pitala odakle Leopoldu padaju na pamet "visokoumni" komentari
o udaji i zenidbi pedera...ccc........:))))))
Leopold
Leopold
Roger wrote in message <9fbl9j$hil$1...@news.InfoSky.Net>...
Bojim se da gresis kada je u pitanju to da li sam imao prilike da naucim
ili ne. Ja jednostavno volim da ponekad budem neqlturan, uzivam u tome. I
kako godine prolaze sve je gore i gore. Ja sam beznadezan slucaj...
Sad ozbiljno, sto ne volis Mladju? Za njega bih mogao da pomislim sve
osim da je glup, ruzan ili impotentan (sto nisam zensko?)...
Milic
i
> > Oli
> >L> da se naljuti... jao niko me ne voli... pitam se zasto!!!]
> >
> M> Mladjo, mi te volimo!
> M> Mladjo, mi te volimo!
> M> Mladjo, mi te volimo!
>
> ..he...a ja se pitala odakle Leopoldu padaju na pamet "visokoumni"
komentari
> o udaji i zenidbi pedera...ccc........:))))))
Volim i ja tebe, Roger. Znash? :)
Volim te i vishe od Mladena, makar samo zbog toga shto si zhena, mada sam
siguran da bi tu ljubav zasluzhila i svojim osobinama. Zar ne, divna moja
Roger? :)
Mladen Adamovic
> Ja jednostavno volim da ponekad budem neqlturan, uzivam u tome. I
> kako godine prolaze sve je gore i gore. Ja sam beznadezan slucaj...
E beznadezni neqlturni slucaju, zar ti to treba pod stare dane?
> Sad ozbiljno, sto ne volis Mladju?
Ma tetka me ne voli zato sto volim da joj ga zavuchem...
Ali zato voli tebe - jer ga ti ne zavlachis... Ili joj zavlachis ali ne
dovoljno duboko.
Joj, a posle kazu da su drugi beznadezhni neqlturni slucajevi...
cccc.... E da me sad vidi moja mila majka.
....
.
.
.
Ej ljudi, necemo valjda da pravimo novi YHV?
Roger
Milic <biv...@eunet.yu> wrote in message news:9fea8o$8c7$3...@news.eunet.yu...
M> Volim i ja tebe, Roger. Znash? :)
M> Volim te i vishe od Mladena, makar samo zbog toga shto si zhena, mada sam
M> siguran da bi tu ljubav zasluzhila i svojim osobinama. Zar ne, divna moja
M> Roger? :)
vidim, mudro si cutao da bi jos mudrije odgovorio ali tek onda kad si se ti
osetio napadnutim....i to je osobina zar ne?
Roger
Leopold <leo...@EUnet.yu> wrote in message
> >
Ro >evo naterao si me da priznam: moj izbor je Leo, pa jos ako je u znaku
>Ro >lava...zabolece glava......:))))
>Ro >(leopold je samo nekulturan a to se da promeniti...nije decko imao do
sada
>Ro >priliku da nauci...ali Mladen je nepopravljivo glup)
>
L> Bojim se da gresis kada je u pitanju to da li sam imao prilike da
naucim
L> ili ne. Ja jednostavno volim da ponekad budem neqlturan, uzivam u tome. I
L> kako godine prolaze sve je gore i gore. Ja sam beznadezan slucaj...
L> Sad ozbiljno, sto ne volis Mladju? Za njega bih mogao da pomislim sve
L> osim da je glup, ruzan ili impotentan (sto nisam zensko?)...
velis "Mladju"...oho...pa ovde je palo tepanje....pa nije ono...mi o vuku a
Leopoldu se svidja "Mladja"?.........:)))))))))
Mladen Adamovic
> siguran da bi tu ljubav zasluzhila i svojim osobinama. Zar ne, divna moja
> Roger? :)
Nemoj sad da se izvlacis.. Sve si rekao... Odao si se... u PLAKARU si!!!
Leopold
Roger wrote in message <9fegrn$1cp$1...@news.InfoSky.Net>...
:)))) e sad si me sredila. Al' kad smo vec poceli u tom smeru da
razmisljamo, kako to da se tebi Mladja ne svidja? Da nisi i ti pomalo
zbejkale? Mozda u svakom od nas chuchi (cak i u Edinu ;) neki mali zli nomos
koji ceka svoj trenutak?
Roger
Leopold <leo...@EUnet.yu> wrote in message
> >velis "Mladju"...oho...pa ovde je palo tepanje....pa nije ono...mi o vuku
a
> >Leopoldu se svidja "Mladja"?.........:)))))))))
>
> :)))) e sad si me sredila. Al' kad smo vec poceli u tom smeru da
> razmisljamo, kako to da se tebi Mladja ne svidja? Da nisi i ti pomalo
> zbejkale? Mozda u svakom od nas chuchi (cak i u Edinu ;) neki mali zli
nomos
> koji ceka svoj trenutak?
...ha...haaaa...ma razumem ja sto si ti navalio na "Mladju"......a sto se
mene tice, ja bih se ipak odlucila za "starije"..........:)))))))))
Milic
> M> Volim te i vishe od Mladena, makar samo zbog toga shto si zhena, mada
sam
> M> siguran da bi tu ljubav zasluzhila i svojim osobinama. Zar ne, divna
moja
> M> Roger? :)
>
> vidim, mudro si cutao da bi jos mudrije odgovorio ali tek onda kad si se
ti
> osetio napadnutim....i to je osobina zar ne?
Karakterni mudrac sam ja tralalalala ;)))
Leopold
Mladen Adamovic
> mene tice, ja bih se ipak odlucila za "starije"..........:)))))))))
Ispao ja ovde neki predmet trgovine: "ajde evo tebi Mladja...".
Shutate se sa mnom kako vam je volja. Bash ste zlobni.
Necu vise da se igram sa vama :))))))))
Lepo mi je govori mama da se cuvam loseg drustva...
O;>