Re: [OmoOdua] Odu Ifa Ose Meji

[toyin adepoju]

thanks Batokkinc.

It might be me who has mixed it up,not knowing of a difference between Ose Meji and Osa Meji.I will see Gleason again and hopefully check other sources.I will also keep the Indiana info in mind.They are clearly strong in African studies.Perhaps I should have studied there instead of coming to England from Nigeria since they also have a very powerful comparative literature department,that being my field.I might consider finding my way there still.

Batokkinc,I know your respect me and I respect you.At the same time,however,I would like us to examine critically our contrastive perspectives on the development or creation of ese ifa.I would like us to do it in a way that does not shy from taking apart the other person's argument while keeping our mutual respect in mind.

I am putting it this way because I have some strong feelings on Ifa,in spite of the fact that my exposure to the practice of Ifa in a traditional sense is quite limited.I am of the view that a number of traditionalist perspectives on Ifa are based on a misunderstanding of Ifa,such as the view that creating new ese ifa that reflect social conditions different from those of Yoruba land is adulteration and profanation,as you claim.Why should this be so?

Ese Ifa  are  fundamentally a body of literature,at times with a formulaic structure which can be easily imitated. One  can compose a basic ese ifa if they know the structure,particularly the kind used in Abimbola's An Exposition of Ifa literary Corpus and Ifa Divination Poetry.I suspect that whatever spiritual  power the ese ifa might have might be not so much in the literature as a structure of words in and of itself but in other factors relating to the relationship between the literature and the human and performative context in which it is used.

There is a critical need to understand the dynamics of Ifa. Does it work and how does it work? What is its value to different kinds of enquiry? I would also hold that ese ifa cannot be described as identical with the fixed character of Biblical literature where a group of people fixed the canon once and for all. The significance of the oral aspect of the ese ifa and the very practical manner in which they are used implies that they are more amenable to modification and to addition than works like the Bible.Was it not human beings who composed the existing ese ifa? Bascom describes some of the process in which this is done,such as dream inspiration.

One should note,though,some very intriguing statements made by Pierre Verger on the value of the transmission of ase-the creative,cosmic  force that sustains and makes possible universal processes in nature and human life-through the oral dimension of ese ifa in his introduction to Ewe.I get the impression, however,that ase is a concept of universal applicability  and that ase is also transmitted through literature of various kinds.It might not be different from the proclamation of the English poet John Milton "A good book is the life blood of a master spirit,sealed and transmitted to a life beyond life"

I also suspect that the memorization of ese ifa might be unnecessary,even for  a babalawo.I suspect,as some scholars in modern African philosophy have argued,that memorization,being a device used largely bcs of the absence of writing,has both its strengths and weaknesses. One of these weakness is that valuable effort is made in committing information to memory and less in analyzing that information. Such limitations of analysis now means that such a system is liable to be stuck in repeating old ways of doing things because the essential value of a practice cannot be interpreted apart from its manner of expression.

Are we saying that one cannot grasp the meaning of an ese ifa without memorizing the whole poem or story? I doubt it.Is it also necessary to chant an entire poem in the divinatory process in the exact form in which one got it? I doubt it.Can one not improvise,even on the spot within a divinatory session, ,make changes as one wants while keeping to a core meaning? Can one not even compose a new poem on the spot,inspired by the old poem?Can the process of composition not be part of the act  of divining? I think so.

I would hold that the babalawo,among other skills he or she cultivates,is a student of literature who is being trained,to some degree as a literary artist.If I might use the example of Jesus,who,like the creators of the ese ifa, was an oral  literary artist,a storyteller,who created stories to communicate his ideas.If he did not do that and relied only on old scriptures,he could not have communicated that message as effectively.As it is his brilliant and but simple parables have become part of world literature.He used images derived from his very simple,pre-industrial society,such as images from sheep herding and other images that are universal across time,such as those  traveling,having a party etc. Now,can similar points not be made using other imagery? Is Lagos less a fitting setting for such stories than Galilee? The Ifa stories seem less local in imagery than some of Jesus stories but the general point  holds,I think.

I suggest that there is a critical need to take forward the achievement represented by the creation of Ifa.Ifa has grown in terms of geographical spread.It should also grow in terms of approaches to its practice in a situation where various perspectives are proffered and possibly applied.

I heard some years ago that Wande Abimbola was working on creating an Ifa university with the aid of UNESCO.I hope such ideas are realized one day and that a critical examination and adaptation of Ifa is central to such initiatives.I wonder,though,if there is not a critical need to look again at to what degree the Western classroom teaching style would fit Ifa studies for aspiring babalawos.

I would hold that it is possible and even crucial that babalawos should be trained simultaneously in the traditional Ifa disciplines as well as in the full range of contemporary knowledge,and trained to critically examine their  own practices and the beliefs underlying Ifa.I am convinced that at the core of Ifa is an essence that is robust and elastic enough to grow under such expansive learning and scrutiny.Susanne Wenger put it well in relation to the Orisa tradition,although,in my view,with some exaggeration-there is no superstition in the Orisa tradition.I have performed an Orisanla invocation using a technique of Western magic and it seemed to have worked for me.I got the results I was looking for.My experience of Ifa also suggests that whatever spiritual force or forces work with Ifa will come if you invite them through interest and action,wherever you are,whatever medium you are using,whether in academic work or some more traditional medium.As the Bini babalawo Joseph Ohomina puts it,the odu,the forces behind action in Ifa, are spirits,although they are also represented in terms of literature. They do not speak a human language.Yoruba is essentially the language first used in the discovery of communicating with them but they cannot be restricted to the forms of Yoruba or related cultures.As Jesus,who was a keen student of spirit,put it in another context-the spirit bloweth where it listeth,and none knows whence it cometh and whither it goeth. People like him,though, used disciplines like prayer,fasting and withdrawal from society to attract, concentrate and focus the presence of spirit,or ase,a closely related category...The babalawo Awo Falokun Fatumbi also presents an invocation to achieve a similar goal in one of his essays on the document archive Scribd.

I  make theses propositions even though  I am not a babalawo because I am convinced that whatever  the babalawo  are doing must have some relationship to the scope of human possibilities already established in other human  practices,spiritual  and otherwise.

The Pierrer Verger Ewe book, along with his other books,can be got at the Pierre Verger Foundation which you can easily find through a Google search.I dont know how efficient their method of collecting payment is though since they dont seem to have a card payment option,although they look very well organized otherwise. There is a US publisher who sells the book although I have not been able to get her site again for some time.When I do I will let you know.You could also  try Ebay and random searches from time to time.It crops up occasionally but sells quick.

Do you mind if I share this discussion with other groups? Its always helpful to get a cross current of opinion.

Thanks

Toyin

On 5 April 2010 01:07, <Bato...@aol.com> wrote:

 

You can contact University of Indiana at Bloomington.  They have some Ese Ifa saved on CD.  The Eses were recorde in 1965 at Oshogbo.  I have a copy.

 

In a message dated 4/4/2010 4:39:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, toyin....@googlemail.com writes:

One of the best things anyone can do is to collate all renditions of ese ifa in writing,so as to help to give an idea of the scope oif literary inventivenes compassed under each odu and the entire corpus in general.It would also be wonde4fyul to gather together all existing ese Ifa, in all languages,incuding Yoruba and the languages used by Ifa students in the diaspora as in Brazil and Cuba,for example.The University of Ibadan Yoruba department is already taping and  and translating   Ifa literature,keeping the records in audio tapes and writing.At least I  got that impression when I visited there some years ago.An effort to collate as many ese ifa as possible and make them available,perhaps both in written form,in audio from,to give a feel of their spoken expression and online,would indicate the sheer wealth of the literature  for the world to see.

 

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[Obafemi Origunwa]

Not exactly... Each ritual language is a logic unto itself and with it comes its corresponding method. So as Yoruba grammar is best understood in Yoruba linguistic terms so is our epistemology (theory of knowledge formation) best understood according to Yoruba indigenous knowledge systems. Ese fa is the living word of Olodumare. Its not literature. Its not a formula. It is a living principle of creation and in the same way that even an accomplished doctor cannot simply dream up a new operation or medicine, a lawyer cannot just invent a law, a babalawo cannot just have a dream and invent an ese fa. Likewise, we approach the mysteries as living entities to whom responsible elders introduce us and facilitate our relationships. The point is that they are alive.

toyin adepoju wrote:
> thanks Batokkinc. It might be me who has mixed it up,not knowing of a difference between Ose Meji and Osa Meji.I will see Gleason again and hopefully check other sources.I will also keep the Indiana info in mind.They are clearly strong in African studies.Perhaps I should have studied there instead of coming to England from Nigeria since they also have a very powerful comparative literature department,that being my field.I might consider finding my way there still.
> Batokkinc,I know your respect me and I respect you.At the same time,however,I would like us to examine critically our contrastive perspectives on the development or creation of ese ifa.I would like us to do it in a way that does not shy from taking apart the other person's argument while keeping our mutual respect in mind.
> I am putting it this way because I have some strong feelings on Ifa,in spite of the fact that my exposure to the practice of Ifa in a traditional sense is quite limited.I am of the view that a number of traditionalist perspectives on Ifa are based on a misunderstanding of Ifa,such as the view that creating new ese ifa that reflect social conditions different from those of Yoruba land is adulteration and profanation,as you claim.Why should this be so?

> Ese Ifa  are  fundamentally a body of literature,at times with a formulaic structure which can be easily imitated. One  can compose a basic ese ifa if they know the structure,particularly the kind used in Abimbola's An Exposition of Ifa literary Corpus and Ifa Divination Poetry .I suspect that whatever spiritual  power the ese ifa might have might be not so much in the literature as a structure of words in and of itself but in other factors relating to the relationship between the literature and the human and performative context in which it is used.

> There is a critical need to understand the dynamics of Ifa. Does it work and how does it work? What is its value to different kinds of enquiry? I would also hold that ese ifa cannot be described as identical with the fixed character of Biblical literature where a group of people fixed the canon once and for all. The significance of the oral aspect of the ese ifa and the very practical manner in which they are used implies that they are more amenable to modification and to addition than works like the Bible.Was it not human beings who composed the existing ese ifa? Bascom describes some of the process in which this is done,such as dream inspiration.
> One should note,though,some very intriguing statements made by Pierre Verger on the value of the transmission of ase-the creative,cosmic  force that sustains and makes possible universal processes in nature and human life-through the oral dimension of ese ifa in his introduction to Ewe.I get the impression, however,that ase is a concept of universal applicability  and that ase is also transmitted through literature of various kinds.It might not be different from the proclamation of the English poet John Milton "A good book is the life blood of a master spirit,sealed and transmitted to a life beyond life"
> I also suspect that the memorization of ese ifa might be unnecessary,even for  a babalawo.I suspect,as some scholars in modern African philosophy have argued,that memorization,being a device used largely bcs of the absence of writing,has both its strengths and weaknesses. One of these weakness is that valuable effort is made in committing information to memory and less in analyzing that information. Such limitations of analysis now means that such a system is liable to be stuck in repeating old ways of doing things because the essential value of a practice cannot be interpreted apart from its manner of expression.
> Are we saying that one cannot grasp the meaning of an ese ifa without memorizing the whole poem or story? I doubt it.Is it also necessary to chant an entire poem in the divinatory process in the exact form in which one got it? I doubt it.Can one not improvise,even on the spot within a divinatory session, ,make changes as one wants while keeping to a core meaning? Can one not even compose a new poem on the spot,inspired by the old poem?Can the process of composition not be part of the act  of divining? I think so.
> I would hold that the babalawo,among other skills he or she cultivates,is a student of literature who is being trained,to some degree as a literary artist.If I might use the example of Jesus,who,like the creators of the ese ifa, was an oral  literary artist,a storyteller,who created stories to communicate his ideas.If he did not do that and relied only on old scriptures,he could not have communicated that message as effectively.As it is his brilliant and but simple parables have become part of world literature.He used images derived from his very simple,pre-industrial society,such as images from sheep herding and other images that are universal across time,such as those  traveling,having a party etc. Now,can similar points not be made using other imagery? Is Lagos less a fitting setting for such stories than Galilee? The Ifa stories seem less local in imagery than some of Jesus stories but the general point  holds,I think.
> I suggest that there is a critical need to take forward the achievement represented by the creation of Ifa.Ifa has grown in terms of geographical spread.It should also grow in terms of approaches to its practice in a situation where various perspectives are proffered and possibly applied.
> I heard some years ago that Wande Abimbola was working on creating an Ifa university with the aid of UNESCO.I hope such ideas are realized one day and that a critical examination and adaptation of Ifa is central to such initiatives.I wonder,though,if there is not a critical need to look again at to what degree the Western classroom teaching style would fit Ifa studies for aspiring babalawos.

> I would hold that it is possible and even crucial that babalawos should be trained simultaneously in the traditional Ifa disciplines as well as in the full range of contemporary knowledge,and trained to critically examine their  own practices and the beliefs underlying Ifa.I am convinced that at the core of Ifa is an essence that is robust and elastic enough to grow under such expansive learning and scrutiny.Susanne Wenger put it well in relation to the Orisa tradition,although,in my view,with some exaggeration- there is no superstition in the Orisa tradition .I have performed an Orisanla invocation using a technique of Western magic and it seemed to have worked for me.I got the results I was looking for.My experience of Ifa also suggests that whatever spiritual force or forces work with Ifa will come if you invite them through interest and action,wherever you are,whatever medium you are using,whether in academic work or some more traditional
medium.As the Bini babalawo Joseph Ohomina puts it,the odu,the forces behind action in Ifa, are spirits,although they are also represented in terms of literature. They do not speak a human language.Yoruba is essentially the language first used in the discovery of communicating with them but they cannot be restricted to the forms of Yoruba or related cultures.As Jesus,who was a keen student of spirit,put it in another context- the spirit bloweth where it listeth,and none knows whence it cometh and whither it goeth.  People like him,though, used disciplines like prayer,fasting and withdrawal from society to attract, concentrate and focus the presence of spirit,or ase,a closely related category...The babalawo Awo Falokun Fatumbi also presents an invocation to achieve a similar goal in one of his essays on the document archive Scribd.

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[Ayaba Bey]

Thank you, as I could not have said it better. Having been born and raised in the US and participating in the ritual of  baptism in the  so called Christian Church(so called, because it does not reflect the idea of the "Christ" spirituality, of its origins, as revealed in ancient Kemit or Ethiopia) This is not a people who ever acknowledge on a public level, the contributions of our ancestors to sacred teachings, scientific advancements or knowledge of any kind. If it had not been for Cheik Ante Diop, Dr. Ben Jochannan, Dr. John Henri Clarke,Dr. Theo Obenga, Dr. Jacob Carruthers, Dr. Asa Hilliard and Ivan Van Sertima and others.http://www.ascac.org/commissions/research.html

 I had an experience when I was 11 years old that led me to seek answers to questions that  children are discouraged to ask.  Eventually I was actually invisibly or spiritually pinned against the wall in my apartment and given instructions and information on my life's future events.  Whether it was ancestors or deities or angels I do not say because the information was not identified as such.  I knew nothing about those things then.  It was only after another similar experience in Guyana that the Yoruba Culture came into my life.  I was not seeking it. 

As I began an extensive course of study and research, that is lasting unto this day, I gained answers to questions about traditions in my own family from my Great Grand Mother on down to my Mother that they did not even know why they did what they did, except to say Mama did it. From that I studied the methodology that the US, England, Arabia and all the  invaders use whenever they engage in conquering a people and their land.  Religion,  the gun and the appearance of helping them to recover. One generation is destroyed and the next generation is "rescued".  It is a diabolical many tentacled method of engagement, but it has worked and continues to work. I am 65 and in 1970's they brought AIDS to the Motherland and about 10 years ago George Bush gave free pills to Uganda. So they see America as the hero.  The great giver of hope. You cannot argue with that when you do not know or want to know the entire story.  Go online and look up World Population Control Board Rockefeller Foundation... I am not saying do not accept the help.  I AM saying I know there is something in  the other hand, because history has shown me that something else is coming.  Then what followed the new  religion? (which is really old and originated in Africa anyway) The psychological ramifications are endless.  Why is it that no one else  is sending missionaries all over the world to dismantle other people's religions except Christians and Muslims? I do want to say here that some elements practiced in some indigenous religions and cultures were inhumane, but much of that was due to having been forced away from the original foundation of understanding, as well as, the barren environments over time, that has a tendency to push people into the most basic  and barren survival responses.  I personally practice elements of faiths that pertain and subscribe to love, peace, higher consciousness, seeing and seeking truth in all people.  I do not prescribe to slavery in any form, war, starvation, neglect, deceit, fear, evil intentions, selfishness, ego centered behavior, lies, lack of compassion from anyone or  religion.  Nor do I see removing the sacredness principle in favor of an intellectual one from our traditional practices. 

  We will not go on the Rosicrucian website and see any intellectual dismantling of their secret(sacred) sciences and systems.  Their research to uncover this knowledge goes back to our ancestors and ancient traditions uncovered in Africa.   Nor do they relegate the metaphysical ideologies and systems to poetry and literature. The way to truly learn about these things and the authenticity, relevance or reality is to become initiated, to learn these traditions and righteously apply the principles to ones' life.  Although I am 3/4ths Native American  my African ancestor came here on one of the last slave ships.  She was a feisty woman who dressed in white from head to hem.  She was forced to have babies for a man named Hill Carter, the Grandfather of Robert E. Lee.  I can only imagine what it must have been like to see a white baby come out of your body.  But now we gladly have babies for them.  We gladly march forward to buy and use skin whitening creams, hair chemicals to straighten our hair,  surgery to our noses and lips, genitals, and the "practice" of homosexuality as a lifestyle as opposed to a response to a more traumatic experience, whether in the womb or after birth.   Many caucasians do just the opposite.  They buy sun tan oils, lie down in tanning beds, get hormonal injections in their lips and hips and now they even have a product called Bootylicious.  Why?  They admire our  beauty and we admire theirs.  CRAZY?  No!  Programming. 

 Our women, especially, demonstrate to their children by what they wear and do to their hair, that white is beautiful. (Beyonce is a good example of that)  So do not get upset when we see so called Black men with white women.  The God they gave our terrorized ancestors to serve was and is white, so do not get angry with those of us who have escaped the illusion of a God that was handed to us on a platter of blood.  We must at least look at the traditions of spirituality that our ancestors practiced before the Maafa because the God that created us and that we created is not a God of wrath and death, but one of Love and continuous self elevation.  It can only manifest through our acts and deeds. So according to ancient teachings, the way we act is the God we serve.  Take the time to study and see that ALL indigenous people on this planet share many similar ideals and rituals that we practice, as a means of representing our connection to the indwelling intelligence that the Euro now has us calling by the name God.(Which has its origins  from another people)  The European mind calls all of us Ethnic groups, but not himself.

Since the origins of the Helios Biblos (The Book of Light) or Bible are from ancient people of Kemit, Ethiopia and not European, it is safe to quote: "My people are destroyed for LACK OF KNOWLEDGE" Hosea 4:6   So let's not stop at a point but continue along the lines of knowledge that leads us to Sankofa..."return and get what we left behind."  For we are our ancestors returned and that is why we have the duty to return our Mother's purse that was stolen a long time ago and must NEVER give up the quest or replace it with someone else's Mama's purse. 

 

Our people have and are still suffering in Africa.  But it is time to hear the stories of our people from all over this globe.  We are related to one another and have no idea who our cousins and nieces and nephews are and perhaps never will.  That alone is one of the greatest injustices and tragedies of the enslavement and kidnapping of our ancestors.  The other is the stripping of our minds and memories of our culture and spiritual knowledge. So, I would weigh very seriously the idea of just what and how much we should "share with the world". The third is that it continues to this day.  Only now it is called education and democracy.  (Demo...cracy) (Demo is also the root for demon) Study to learn the connection between what was and what is.  As I told my African brothers 30 years ago, if you want to see what Africa will look like 25 years from now, look at the black community here.  We are the experiment and what they have learned about us will be exported throughout the African world.

Love you all, Keep communicating until thinking becomes a criminal act.

Odabo,

Mama Ayaba

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That which you seek is seeking you.

Dr.Ayaba Bey,PhD  Divinity/Metaphysics
804-329-8778 (H)   317-5363177 (Fax)
     Universal Truth Afrikan Temple
   Sankofa Institue for Esoteric Science
                  &  Spiritual Growth

[toyin adepoju]

C. Now to Pius critique.

 

1. What is spiritual technology? A spiritual technology is a procedure for relating with what is understood as spirit within a particular world view. Spirit can be described in relation to the Orisa tradition's concept of ase, which can be described as a cosmic force that enables being and becoming. This definition is a philosophically oriented restatement of the concept of ase in the standard literature, such as the work of Pemberton, Babatunde Lawal and Rowland Abiodun, among others.

The concept of technology here is derived from Frances Stewart Technology and Underdevelopment where she describes technology in terms of process and product. She expounds on this in an essay:

Technology consists of knowledge about how to do and make useful things. It is not just matter of the hardware of the system-knowledge related to machines and processes; it also includes the associated software-administration and infrastructure, management, banking, and education, for example. The technology defines what is made, or the nature and characteristics of goods and services, as well as how they are made (Technology and Underdevelopment, Development Policy Review,Volume A10 Issue 1, Pages 92 – 105.

 

Wikipedia presents complementary perspectives on technology:

 

Technology is the usage and knowledge of tools, techniques, and crafts, or is systems or methods of organization, or is a material product (such as clothing) of these things. Technology can be most broadly defined as the entities, both material and immaterial, created by the application of mental and physical effort in order to achieve some value.  In this usage, technology refers to tools and machines that may be used to solve real-world problems. It is a far-reaching term that may include simple tools, such as a crowbar or wooden spoon, or more complex machines, such as a space station or particle accelerator. Tools and machines need not be material; virtual technology, such as computer software and business methods, fall under this definition of technology.

 

More recently, scholars have borrowed from European philosophers of "technique" to extend the meaning of technology to various forms of instrumental reason, as in Foucault's work on technologies of the self.

Technologies of the self (also called care of the self or practices of the self) are what Michel Foucault calls the methods and techniques ("tools") through which human beings constitute themselves. Foucault argued that we as subjects are perpetually engaged in processes whereby we define and produce our own ethical self-understanding. According to Foucault, technologies of the self are the forms of knowledge and strategies that “permit individuals to effect by their own means or with the help of others a certain number of operations on their own bodies and souls, thoughts, conduct, and way of being, so as to transform themselves in order to attain a certain state of happiness, purity, wisdom, perfection, or immortality.”

 

Ursula Franklin is best known for her writings on the political and social effects of technology. For her, technology is much more than machines, gadgets or electronic transmitters. It is a comprehensive system that includes methods, procedures, organization, "and most of all, a mindset".

 

 

So when the babalawo-Ifa priest- divines or engages in any procedure meant to relate human and non-human words as in divining or to create a herbal preparation, they can be said to be employing particular forms of technology, according to these  defintions. The concept of a spiritual technology is also used in Teresa Washington’s “Nickels in the Nation Sack:  Continuity in Africana Spiritual Technologies” (The Journal of Pan African Studies, vol.3, no.5, March 2010).

 

2. I stated ""Most of the ese Ifa in Abimbola's books for example,do not have the poetic intensity and linguistic sophistication of the Biblical psalms, for example." Their kind of strength is different.

 

I am still studying the subject though and realise that a careful reading of the Yoruba originals will be vital in such comparisons, particularly since I can hardly read Yoruba although i can not read the original Biblical languages either.

 Pius is correct, though, to observe a contradiction between my seeming downgrading of Ifa literature in relation to the Biblical Psalms and my valoristic analysis of the ese ifa dealing with the vicissitudes of the squirrel. I think that contradiction might result from my effort to understand the distinctive character of the literary qualities of the varieties of ese ifa I have come across, leading me to state as an opinion what should properly be stated as a hypothesis. That hypothesis remains relevant and I am responding to it in the light of the qualification I made to my comment on differences between ese ifa and the Biblical Psalms in which I stated that the Psalms demonstrate a poetic density and linguistic sophistication not evident in ese ifa but that the literary strength of ese ifa is of a different kind.

 In stating that their strength is different, I imply that the bible and the psalms derive their power from a sense of gravitas, a solemnity that derives from language and how the subjects are presented. To give a very general example let me use a psalm most of us know Psalm the “Lord is my Shepherd”. This poem proceeds in terms of characterisations of the human being as a sheep, led by the shepherd,God,in terms of imagery that constantly subordinates the human supplicant and poet to the divine master:

 The Lord is my shepherd

I shall not want

He makes me to lie down in green pastures

He restores my soul

He leads me in the path of righteousness for his name’s  sake

He leads me beside the still waters

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil

 

Your rod and your staff they comfort me.

You lay a table before me in the presence of my enemies

You anoint my head with oil

My cup runs over.

 

There might some mistakes in the quotation since I am writing it from memory but that is essentially the poem and it is representative of the tone of the Psalms and of the attitude established between the poet and the poem’s subject: the relationship between human beings and God.

 Now look at this example from Abimbola’s Ifa Divination Poetry (Odi Meji a)which is also in Abosede Emmanuel’s Ifa Festival:

 We build a tiny house,

And ask a divinity to accept it as his dwelling place.

If the divinity refuses to accept it,

Let him go into the forest to cut building poles,

Let him go to the grassland to fetch building ropes,

And see for himself the difficulties involved.

Ifa divination was performed for he who cuts palm fronds,

Ifa divination was also performed or he who ties palm fronds

together,

On the day both of them were coming from heaven to earth.

 In Abimbola’s translations  and Ibie’s Ifism (not quoted here) we see Orunmila in various kinds of  pursuits. In Ambiola’s  Ifa Divination Poetry  he steals the wife of Death with the help of his loyal sidekick Esu, in Ibie he washes the clothes his intended  wife uses in sleeping with her lover as a show of patience to win her over and later ask his henchman Esu to deal with the trespassing man, in Abimbola’s  Sixteen Great Poems of Ifa he is running from opponents and finds himself in the house of a childless woman who offers him space to sleep. While purportedly sleeping, he edges closer and closer to the woman until they do it, leading to her conceive  a child;Bolaji Idwu in Olodumare  Idowu quites an ese ifa in which presents the comic image of Olodumare,the creator of the universe, covering his hair with chalk to simulate old age.

 I dont have a broad knowledge of ese ifa but I have read enough to observe certain trends which might relate to the peculiarities in orisa metaphysics as different from the Bible and Christianity, as it emerged in the Western Roman Empire, of which Europe was a part and as it eventually found its way to Africa, as   different from the Eastern Roman Empire, where the characterisation of Christianity seems to have had significant differences.

 You will never find God or a prophet engaging in activity that would be undignifying for a human being,as in the way Orunmila,the founder of Ifa, the adviser to Olodumare at the time of creation,is depicted in those ese ifa, not to talk of stealing someone’s wife. God and the angels are never challenged, never made fun of,  in the ese ifa that asks the divinity to build a house for itself if it not satisfied with what its devotees have provided.

 You will not find fables, animal  stories in the Bible,as you find in ese ifa. All these examples between ese ifa and the Bible suggest  a significantly different conception of the sacred.

 How can the characterisation of the sacred  in the ese ifa I have given examples of be described? I will borrow a term from the nglo-Irish writer James Joyce:joco-serious-jocular and serious.

 Does Orunmila’s theft of the wife of Death mean he is not the same Orunmila in another poem in an  Abimbola essay who marries Iwaspele,GentleCharacter, suggesting the value of such traits of character in the Ifa world view? Of course not. Orummila operates in these poems not as the divine intelligence described as advising Olodumare at the creation of the universe, Elerin Ipin,Witness to Creation, The Little Man with a Head Full of Wisdom, but as a narrative frame, a literary device, an imaginative character. This does not mean the ifa priest will imitate the fictional  Orunmila by stealing  someone’s wife, not to talk of the wife of Death. Ifa priests  have their rules which preclude such behavious, which according to Ohomina, deals with adherence to spiritual law and its actions and reactions, and which, like natural law, are described as acting impersonally.

 How do we distinguish between such characterisations of Orunmila and others which present Orunmila in a positive light,as the one in in Abimbola’s  An Exposition of Ifa literary Corpus where  his disciples meet him in orun,the spirit world,nthe zone of origins, and he gives them the Ifa system. Is this  passing on of knowledge in orun necessarily to be understood literally. I would not think so. All theses questions need to be responded to in terms of  thorough study of Ifa hermeneutics, and like all literary forms, the Ifa priests  cannot have the last word on the literally or imaginative character of ese ifa because they constitute texts which they too are trying to understand.

 The jocoserious characterisations in these ese ifa are close to the spirit of Zen Buddhism, where the following expression characterises the relationship between the Zen practitioner and the founder of Buddhism, the Buddha, who died centuries before the development of Zen but whose ideas eventually led to Zen, among other Buddhist groups: “If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him!”.This suggests the need to divorce oneself from literal adherence to the teachings of the historical Buddha, in order to better recreate the essence of the founder’s teachings. Killing the Buddha implies the creative radicality  of Zen.

 3.Then you claim: "6.Ifa is literature. The Bible is literature. The Koran is literature." Yes, Toyin, but that is only half the truth. These are also belief systems and ways of life. They are faith. Literature is not belief and it is not a way of life. Literature is not faith. Nobody wakes up in the morning to pour libation to Things Fall Apart and Arrow of God. At best, you could go the way of Auerbach and call literature mimesis, it still doesn't elevate it to the level of faith. That is why your claim in no 6 is utterly reductionist and cannot stand.

 Please see the following from my last post:

 The major difference between Ifa,Charles Dickens and Arthur Miller,whom you [Afis]mention is that Ifa literature is directed at serving  an overtly sacred purpose as part of a spiritual technology while the others are overtly secular.But that purpose in Ifa is partly served through literary devices similar to those of Dickens and Miller.

 Religious writings are both deliberately literary and religious. Note that the lines between the two in terms of faith can be blurred. The Matrix was first a philosophical work of art but it has also inspired a religion, for example. The relationship between religion and literature has long recognised in scholarship as demonstrated works like The Literary Guide to the Bible by Alter and Kermode, among other works in mainstream scholarship.

 Its also true that purportedly secular works cn also demonstrate sacred significance on account of the convergence between their content and the sacred. Since you have studied   French literature you might want to look at the Symbolists, as the work of Rimbaud and Baudelaire and even the Absurdist work of Samuel Beckett in Waiting for Godot. The sacred in Rimbaud and Beckett is different from that in conventional spirituality, but its evokes the sense of human yearning for that which is beyond the mundane.

 4."The fact that interaction between diviners and squirrels is not a conventional part of human reality"

 My broda, what do you mean here? Hunting for okere and other eran igbe is a conventional part of human reality anywhere in Yoruba land and how does this exclude diviners? Or do you think that a diviner roaming the forest for "ewe" (leaves) would close his eyes to any careless "okere" (squirrel)? He is likely to thank ifa for that added gift. The remainder of your post is spent doing a literary appreciation of ifa - is it still poetically inferior to psalms at this point?

 These comments of yours shows that you might not have read my comments on this point carefully. I quote from my last post:

 The fact that interaction between diviners and squirrels is not a conventional part of human reality, if at all, makes this personification of the squirrel, making it a figure that can talk and be spoken to, a literary device and the poem where this appears literary.

 A good part of what is in ese ifa is fictive because it is not meant to be taken literally.Do SQUIRRELS TALK WITH BABALAWO,[an addition for clarity here-DO BABALAWO TALK] with Chicken Egg ( Eji Ogbe b),Menstrual Flow ( Iwori Meji b) Cock( Okanran Meji b) Ojontarigi,the wife of Death (Ogunda Meji a) Lion (Ogunda Meji b)-all examples from Wande Abimbola,Ifa Divination Poetry,with the particular odu in which the example appears in brackets. Its being fictive and imaginative does not mean it is deceptive. It communicates an idea that is not literally, directly presented. One understands, for example, the folly of the squirrel's actions even though it is practically untrue that such an incident ever took place. That is a quality of literature,what Biodun Jeyifo calls the "truthful lie".

 I believe the point is clearer now. Its not about a babalawo interacting with okere –squirrel- in the bush-it is about a babalawo engaging in dialogue with, divining for okere,with Chicken Egg, Lion and even with a form that is both a material form and a process-Menstrual Flow.!

 Do diviners talk with, engage in dialogue with, cast divination for,in order to provide a service to these forms of nature?!

 toyin

On 5 April 2010 19:05, Pius Adesanmi <piusad...@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

Toyin:   This is a quick one. Egbon Afis has nothing to explain until you clear up all the confusion you wove into your post below. First, what is "spiritual technology" tori oloun? Then you serve us this curious statement:   "Most of the ese Ifa in Abimbola's books for example,do not have the poetic intensity and linguistic sophistication of the Biblical psalms, for example."   Really? Toyin? Helloooo!!!! Since you assume the mantle of a literary critic here, the least you could do is give us examples from the psalms to back up this your theory of superior "poetic intensity" and "linguistic sophistication". Toyin, give us two verses, one from ifa and one from the Book of psalms. Do a conventional poetic appreciation of both and lets see if your assertion stands scrutiny. You can't get away with making this sort of claim without backing it up. Then you claim: "6.Ifa is literature. The Bible is literature. The Koran is literature." Yes, Toyin, but that is only half the truth. These are also belief systems and ways of life. They are faith. Literature is not belief and it is not a way of life. Literature is not faith. Nobody wakes up in the morning to pour libation to Things Fall Apart andn Arrow of God. At best, you could go the way of Auerbach and call literature mimesis, it still doesn't elevate it to the level of faith. That is why your claim in no 6 is utterly reductionist and cannot stand.   After postulating ese ifa's inferiority to the psalms in terms of poetic intensity, you proceed to heap literay praise on it even while misreading the ese you cite from Abimbola. You write:   "The fact that interaction between diviners and squirrels is not a conventional part of human reality"   My broda, what do you mean here? Hunting for okere and other eran igbe is a conventional part of human reality anywhere in Yoruba land and how does this exclude diviners? Or do you think that a diviner roaming the forest for "ewe" (leaves) would close his eyes to any careless "okere" (squirrel)? He is likely to thank ifa for that added gift. The remainder of your post is spent doing a literary appreciation of ifa - is it still poetically inferior to psalms at this point?   All the literary devices and figures of speech in your cited ifa verse you then proceed to read literally as evidence of ifa's exclusive fictionality. That's a completely flawed discursive procedure and it has led you to the false questions you are asking Egbon Afis to answer. When your father summons you for a father-son talk and says: "at a certain age, a child is expected to own a hoe and cutlass. Son, we are waiting. Don't be the exception to this rule". He could very well stop the conversation here. If you thank him and promise to do his bidding, do you then go and buy a hoe and a cutlass or you go and propose marriage to your fiancee? Does the fact that he did not mention marriage reduce all he told you to literature and fiction?   Pius ====================================================================== "A fun won l'aso sokoto lo fo won" - Kollington Ayinla --- On Mon, 5/4/10, toyin adepoju <toyin....@googlemail.com> wrote: From: toyin adepoju <toyin....@googlemail.com> Subject: [NaijaPolitics] Re: Odu Ifa Ose Meji To: "afis" <odide...@yahoo.com> Cc: naijap...@yahoogroups.com, "Odua" <omo...@yahoogroups.com>, Bato...@aol.com Date: Monday, 5 April, 2010, 18:13   Afis, Please.... 1.How do you know odu Ifa were handed down by Orunmila? Does Orunmila really exist? Ih he exists,in what form does he exist? To what degree is Orunmila a creation of the human mind and to what degree is he an entity,personality or force that exists independent of the human mind? Must I believe unequivocally in the existence of Orunmila to be able  to advantage of Orisa and Ifa spiritual technologies? Can Orunmila manifest himself so that his existence becomes a matter of knowledge rather than of faith? What is meant by the Yoruba  idea that without human beings there would be no orisa? How plausible in actuality is the account in Chinua Achebe's Arrow of God that a particular deity was self consciously, deliberately,  created by the people of its community?  2.Is it not more probable that a human being,perhaps Setilu, actually created the Ifa system? And others built on it? Is there anything about the system that is beyond human mental capacity to create? How do we account for the similarities between Ifa and other divinatory and knowledge systems,from divination to computing,as in the use of binary structure? Do these  similarities indicate a common divine creation or similarities in the workings of the human mind? Does creation by a human being rule out divine inspiration? For an imaginative depiction of how Ifa might have been created,one could see the earliest  posts in my blog ifastudentandteache r.blogspot. com. 3. Why do people not create more Biblical verses? Simple.At a point in time a group of people came together and decided that they would decide what should be in the Bible and what should not. After that they declared the process closed.no more additions. The canon formation is purely a human affair arranged for purposes of doctrinal organization. The Bible is written by human beings, at times inspired,but humans. Even if God inspired part of the Bible he did not write it himself.He worked through human beings.As for the Quran, Muhammed presents it as dictated by an angel, which,to me, is possible.He describes himself as the last of the prophets.He is welcome to his point of view on that.He is not the first or the last person to ascribe a privileged role to themselves at the centre of divine affairs. The ECKANKAR group claims that their teacher,a an Anglo-American, is the emissary of the ultimate being and is the highest spiritual teacher in the universe. 4. Why should Ifa  recitations not change? What would they lose from changing? I read them and frankly speaking a good number of the ones I  have read can be changed without altering their meaning or even their poetic strength. Most of the ese Ifa in Abimbola's books for example,do not have the poetic intensity and linguistic sophistication of the Biblical psalms, for example. Their kind of strength is different,since they were created for easy memorizing,lending them to easy modification. What is there in their content that is so sacrosanct that they cannot be modified and still have value? 5. You concluded by asserting the unchanging meaning, not just the form of ese Ifa.So? A work of literature can be modified and its meaning remain intact.In fact,meaning, particularly with reference to the elasticity of ese Ifa can easily  be expanded or contracted depending on how one chooses  to use the existing forms. Anyway,must one use only existing Ifa literary forms in practicing Ifa?True,creating or modifying ese Ifa leads to the question of authenticity, but the question is-must the authentic be what does not  change? 6.Ifa is literature. The Bible is literature. The Koran is literature. What is literature? Literature can be described as an imaginative form of expression.It is imaginative because ,in its language and general  presentation of its subject,it relies to a greater or lesser degree on recreating what it presents so that the audience can experience the subject matter more intimately,in particular directions evoked by the artist.In doing that,it uses distinctive but universally used  forms of language as well as reshapes reality  imaginatively Such qualities of reshaping reality imaginatively  are represented by the ese ifa in Abimbola's Ifa Divination Poetry (Otua Meji a) in which the squirrel is advised by Ifa not to talk too much-: The slippery mouth; The mouth that cannot keep secrets; The trap set by mouth never fails to catch victims; It is the mouth of the talkative which kills the talkative; It is the mouth of he who talks at large which kills he who talks at large; It is talking too much which kills the eavesdropper. Ifa divination was performed for the Squirrel Who built a nest near the road The Squirrel was warned to be very careful Because he could not keep secrets... The fact that interaction between diviners and squirrels is not a conventional part of human reality,if at all,makes this personification of the squirrel,making it a figure that can talk and be spoken to, a literary device and the poem where this appears literary. The squirrel forgets the warning of Ifa and announces to passing humans that he has just had children. The humans ask to see the children and the poem concludes on a sadly delightful note.In Yoruba it reads   Won fi awon omo okere leri  iyan Won si ba obe lo  which Abimbola translates as  They put the children on the Squirrel on top of pounded yam And they disappeared with soup  but,the second part of which,perhaps, can also  read "they escorted soup away" as one sees off or escorts a friend some distance from one's house,thereby creating an ironic description of the plight of the baby squirrels who have become part of soup. This ese ifa creates a delightful narrative through making the squirrel seem human,thereby playing on the  chattering sound it makes with its teeth as well as its fate as a human dietary delicacy. By highlighting the squirrel as a family man,which it actually is,the poem could provoke in the audience an identification with the animal as a creature who shares human qualities,facilitat ing perception from within the squirrels perception of itself,however limited,possibly evoking a reconsideration of the act of feeding on animals as well  projecting a quality that is widespread in human life-the danger of lack of discipline in speech. All these interpretive possibilities emerging from the personification of the squirrel are introduced by the striking opening lines,which through rhythmic patterning of lines,repetition of a central idea in each  lines with an new expansion of the idea in each succeeding line-the talkative mouth: it cannot keep secrets;its is trap that catches victims,it never fails to do so;it kills the talkative;it kills the who talks at large;it kills the eavesdropper. The mouth is described as if it is an independent agent,as if it is the entire human being, thereby suggesting the compulsive character of being talkative-one's mouth seems to control one-one's  brain seems to be in one's mouths....The parallelism of using similar sentence structures in each line,varying them by repeating the basic idea using a similar or identical word-talking- talkative- adding new elaborations of the idea in each line,adds to the force of the basic idea-being talkative can kill,illustrated in subsequent lines by the tragic story of the squirrel. Is it not possible to write a poem guided by the literary principles eviodent in this poem?Would such a poem be less worthy as an ese ifa? Is it not possible to write a poem different in form from any ese ifa  that can be helpful in learning about Ifa? Each ese ifa in Abimbola's  book opens with striking poetic lines like   No wise man can tie water into a knot on the edges of his garment No sages knows the grains of sand on the earth in which,as in this example,commonplace observations are articulated in a manner that suggests proverbial truths and possibly deeper philosophical ideas. This is literature because it creates a fresh appreciation of the commonplace (The English poet William Wordsworth's description of poetry) Along with this Ifa literature has some striking erotic passages,as in the descriptions of Iyanla in Babatunde Lawal'[s Gelede Spectacle,like the Biblical Song  of Songs is totally an erotic poem,however the church has tried to pretty it up.When the Koran in Sura al Nur describes Allah as light,a glittering star,that is literary because it evokes a physical image which helps us imagine the qualities of something not physical -Allah. A good part of what is in ese ifa is fictive because it is not meant to be taken literally.Do squirrels talk with babalawo,with Chicken Egg ( Eji Ogbe b),Menstrual Flow ( Iwori Meji b) Cock( Okanran Meji b) Ojontarigi,the wife of Death (Ogunda Meji a) Lion (Ogunda Meji b)..all examples from Wande Abimbola,Ifa Divination Poetry,with the particular odu in which the example appears in brackets.Its being fictive and imaginative does not mean it is deceptive.It communicates an idea that is not literally,directly presented. One understands, dor example,the folly of the squirrel's actions even though it is practically untrue that such an incident ever took place.That is a quality of literature,that Biodun Jeyifo calls the "truthful lie". The major difference between Ifa,Charles Dickens and Arthur Miller,whom you mention is that Ifa literature is directed at serving  an overtly sacred purpose as part of a spiritual technology while the others are overtly secular..But that purpose in Ifa is partly served through literary devices similar to those of Dickens and Miller. Thanks toyin  On 5 April 2010 13:24, afis <odidere2001@ yahoo.com> wrote: "Someone on the blog Ifa Yesterday,Ifa Today, Ifa Tomorrow has even suggested the possibility of creating new ese ifa that reflect  the realities of social  conditions of Ifa practitioners in places  different from Yorubaland,such as in the US."  By Brother Toyin Adepoju.       My comment:  Ifa is not a literature book like "A Christmas Carol" or "Death of A Salesman" kind of.  Brother Toyin, do you ever think of creating more "verses" in the Bible or "Al Qur'an"?  Yes, Ifa "verses" can be reviewed and opinions shared on them, but creating new verses would demean Ifa and relates it to mere fiction. Ifa is a Way. It was the guiding light (Ohun atani si ona) of the Yoruba, until the "White Dusts" arrived in cyclonic storm, blinding and burying the souls of the Yoruba in self-created religious sand dunes.   Though Ifa was not in written form for decades, the Ifa verses had remained intact from one area of Yoruba to another.  Ifa was handed down by Orunmila Baba Ifa, just as Muhammad brought the "Al Qur'an".    Its recitations never change.  Eji Ogbe is Eji Ogbe anywhere, "Ose Meji" is "Ose meji" in Yorubaland.   Anyone who adds more "verses" therefore, has added non- Ifa "verses".   It's blasphemous and sacrilegeous, and I say it candidly, those added "verses" would not work for the Ifa-seer.  The Odu Ifa known as "verses" by the "emumunication" community, are not just there for mere adulation and admiration.  The "verses" are there to show the "Way", to tell the future, or to right a wrong to an individual or to a community. Odu Ifa is used to bring peace between a man and his "Ori lonise", or between a community and the Gods.   When you visit an Ifa priest, the Odu that is seen must come from those Odu-s that Orunmila handed down to his followers.  It's from those Odu-s that a prediction can be made and pronounced on the seeker of the Truth.  The seer cannot see thru what is not given from Orunmila. For example, an  Odu "Oyeku" may be for the avoidance of impending havoc, as in "Oyeku yeku l'orimi".  The "Oyeku" must be seen on the "opele" before the seer could conclude his findings.  Ifa "verses" cannot be "created" as if it's a literary work, they all have meanings relating to the findings by the Ifa priest.    Make una "gba brake" small small  oooo, with dis una "emumunication" without borders.  Shikena. afis   --- In OmoOdua@yahoogroups .com, Batokkinc@.. . wrote:   Re: [OmoOdua] Odu Ifa Ose Meji That would be tantamount to adulteration and profanation.     In a message dated 4/4/2010 4:39:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, toyin.adepoju@ googlemail. com writes: Someone on the blog Ifa Yesterday,Ifa Today, Ifa Tomorrow has even suggested the possibility of creating new ese ifa that reflect  the realities of social  conditions of Ifa practitioners in places  different from Yorubaland,such as in the US.

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Acknowledgements

 

Thank you Afis, Pius, Bimbola, Obafemi, Ojo,Fama and all other respondents to this debate on Ifa  for this opportunity to explain myself  further.

 

Introduction

 

    Ifa as a System of Knowledge Within the Context of Other Knowledge Systems

 

Ifa can be understood as a system of knowledge and should treated as such. The claims it makes to knowledge must be clearly outlined, the kind of knowledge it claims to demonstrate, its methods of arriving at this knowledge and the criteria and methods for verifying this knowledge should be clearly spelt out. The metjod(s) of training through  which this knowledge is developed and understood should also be made clear. The degree to which Ifa diverges from and agrees with other approaches to knowledge should be made clear. All these propositions represent a research agenda that cannot so much be fulfilled within a period of time as being  an ongoing process of enquiry as long as Ifa continues to be of interest of anybody.

 

I insist on Ifa’s character as a system of knowledge because central to its character is its role as a divinatory system. Ifa has  religious, magical, cultural, historical, literary, mathematical, medicinal , artistic, philosophical and other  aspects but all these are brought to a focus through its role as a divinatory  system. A divinatory system is a system of knowledge because it purports to arrive at knowledge through methods not available to the ratiocinative  mind that arrives at knowledge through reasoning and inference from sense data.

 

To describe Ifa in terms of only any of its multiple aspects is to limit it. My response to this debate is based on this perspective of Ifa as multidisciplinary system of knowledge.

 

Contrastive Approaches to Understanding Ifa as Represented by this Debate

 

First, I will characterize what I understand as the major differences between my position and those of  my critics. I will  use the criticism of my position by  Afis and Pius as frameworks to include the others.

 

First, Afis is a traditionalist who wants to treat Ifa the way that literalist, fundamentalist Jews and Christians  treat the Bible. That approach will not  stand up to scrutiny in relation to the centrality of human agency in all aspects of human culture, of which religious systems, like  Christianity  and religious and cognitive systems like Ifa are examples. We can insist on their divine creation, but that remains an act of faith, particularly in the light of the fact that the earliest books of the Bible are called the Books of Moses, which I expect means Moses  wrote them. We can also claim Jesus was the son of God, a claim that is certainly not self evident as true. If he really lived though, then he was born of a woman and had the characteristics  of a human being, both physically and psychologically, no matter how profound his mind and self sacrificing his commitment to his vision. That means he was a man. Any other characterization that makes him divine is a matter of faith. If it is based on knowledge, it is not knowledge readily available to human beings.

 

The same holds for whoever created Ifa. We might not know who it was, but one does not need a divine being to explain the creation of Ifa. The Chinese I Ching and the Malagasy Sikidi, among other divinatory systems, share significant similarities with Ifa. Of course, adherents of various systems  insist  that their system was divinely created. Perhaps they were. But their creation is perfectly within the realm of human possibility.

 

It seems Afis is insisting on the immutablity of ese ifa,Ifa literature. That means he is not taking account of scholarship that shows the historical development of Ifa, leading Abimbola to publish an essay on the use of ese ifa in the study of history and Babatunde Lawal to argue in “Ejiwapo” for changes in Yoruba Orisa literature-not necessarily identical with ese ifa but related to the corpus, reflecting the influence of the patriarchal stance of Christianity and Islam, obscuring what he understands as the male-female duality in the conception of Osumare/Olodumare, the creator, in favour of Olodumare as a single male creator. Whatever one thinks one has to contend with these positions. Margaret  Drewal in The Yoruba Artist also writes about ese ifa that address Islam. Of course since ese ifa are expected to be older than the later emergence of Islam in general and its eventual penetration into Yorubaland, those ese ifa were created after Islam came to Yorubaland. Are we going to argue that, with the omniscient wisdom of Ifa they were created in anticipation of the emergence of Islam and its coming to Yorubaland? Or perhaps that such verses do not exist?  It could also be helpful to see Judith Glason's speculations in A Recitation of Ifa on relationships between Ifa,Islamic geomancy and Babylonian astrology as a continuation of traditions in which Ifa is the latest development.

 

As for Pius,I get the impression he has not read my post carefully. I suggest you read it carefully and note the qualifications I make of particular assertions and the specific  claims  I make  about the ontology, the mode of being about natural forms, the character of reality projected at various levels of meaning  in Ifa literature. It is tempting to be eager to defend what one thinks is a critique of Ifa,a move  which I see at times among those who see Ifa  as an unassailable cultural icon. But that perspective on Ifa  will   not stand critical scrutiny. He and some others have not examined carefully the points I make about why ese ifa as  properly understood as literary forms that operate in terms of the imaginative and fictive character of literature, in terms of their use of the metaphorical character of figures of speech and the creation of fictional scenarios to project ideas. Pius is correct, though, to observe a contradiction between my seeming downgrading of Ifa literature in relation to the Biblical Psalms and my valoristic analysis of the ese ifa dealing with the vicissitudes of the squirrel. I think that contradiction might result from my effort to understand the distinctive character of the literary qualities of the varieties of ese ifa I have come across, leading me to state as an opinion what should properly be stated as a hypothesis. That hypothesis remains relevant and I am responding to it in the light of the qualification I made to my comment on differences between ese ifa and the Biblical Psalms in which I stated that the Psalms demonstrate a poetic density and luingustic sophistication not evident in ese ifa but that the literay strgeth of ese ifa is of a different kind.I will clarify this assertion about forms of literary power with comparison between ese ifa and the Psalms, along with Hinduism and Buddhism,thereby comparing ese ifa with religious literature from the Middle East and Asia which are two of the most prominent continents in the development of ancient and still very visible religious traditions.

I  will address this when I come to dealing with Pius’s response.

 

A.Now to start with Afis’ objections:

 

1. Afis responds to my quoting Wande Abimbola’s translations of ese ifa by stating that he does not know of that schjolar and that his work is not Ifa and must be made up. Who is Wande Abimbola? What makes his work authoritative? As far as I know,the earliest  major book English translations of ese ifa from Nigeria are William  Bascom's Ifa Divination and Abimola's texts.Ayo Salami,Aboesede Emmanuel, Cromwell Ibie etc came after Bascom and Abimbola. Abimbola's account of Ifa remains  the most lucid and comprehensive of Ifa fundamentals that I know. I saw earlier  that the writer of the text on Ifa in Wikipedia did not include his work. That is  mistake. I should correct that.

 

2. Now, I could quote more examples from Abosede Emmanuel,Adegboyega Orangun,Bolaji Idowu,Cromwell Ibie and Bacom, which I have to hand right now,or Salami,whom I dont have to hand right now, or go online to Ifalola  Sanchez blog and others and get examples from the Diaspora that will support my point about Ifa as literature. I think its even possible to postulate some fundamental recurring structures in Ifa literature but I have not read it enough to do that now.

 

3. I see that you simply reassert  your position on the divine origin of Ifa. Again the question is how do you know?

 

4. I will address this very important statement by you:

"The Ifa verses are incantations, not mere poetry.  A Holy recitations, not creative writing 101."

You have a point. You are arguing that the verses represent verbal structures that communicate a spiritual force, what is called ase in the orisa tradition. According to one writer on the origins of poetry,however,poetry began with incantations. Incantations can be described as  created in terms of  two factors:form and intention. Form:a structure often designed to create a rapport between intent and language,at times using a structure that climaxes in an invocatory centre. Intention:the purpose of the speaker.You can see examples of Yoruba incantations,as in the essay of Rowland Abiodun with a title like “Verbalising Ase” and Karen Barber’s wonderful “How Man Makes God in West Africa”-although the examples in the last might be more of oriki than incantations, although I wont pretend to have a thorough knowledge of the difference between oriki and incantations in the Yoruba or Orisa tradition when oriki are used in a ritual context.

Incantations are human constructs. They are linguistic forms used to achieve magical or spiritual ends. The process for creating incantations are part of the training process of spiritual technologies. They also occur in most non overtly spiritual literature. For examples of truly powerful incantations, see Wole Soyinka's A Shuttle in the Crypt as in the poems "O Roots" and "I Anoint my Voice",and in Christopher Okigbos Labyrinths, the opening and closing lines of the poem and the climax in the section titled "Distances" are remarkable.

Other examples outside Africa:the last paragraph  of James Joyces A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man,the poetry of W.B Yeats,as "A Dialogue between Self and Soul",the poetry of T.S Eliot,Dante,Milton among so many.

According to Israel Regardie's The Tree of Life: A Study in Magic, some incantations might even have no lexical meaning, no dictionary meaning. The purpose is to create a dissociation between the ratiocinative and imaginative mind, so as facilitate   reaching into another world.

Even your name Afis,can be used as an incantation, by yourself, depending on how you use it, with focused intention, with a well trained mind, like a babalawo traditionally undergoes many years of training. If you repeat your name to yourself, with a concentrated mind,perhaps to evoke to yourself certain values that name has for you,or to evoke your ori (Yoruba for the immortal inner self),or chi( Igbo  for the immortal spirit that is co-creator of the self,according to one view)your spirit,you are using your name as an incantation.

You can learn how to create incantations.It is a fundamental tool in spiritual training and,to some degree, literary writing.

The fundamental points of difference between us are your traditionalist,literalist and perhaps fundamentalist view of Ifa which you see as divinely created,and my view which sees it as  humanly  constructed,perhaps inspired but still a human creation and amenable to adaptation by humans.I will see how I can address this approach of mine  later with a closer focus on the questions I asked in my first point in my last mail about the burden of proof in relation to claims about Ifa.

On 5 April 2010 18:52, afis <odide...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Brother Toyin:   I have not read Abimbola's "Ifa Divination Poetry", but the way you describe the contents, in my view, that is not Ifa divination per se.  Abimbola's poetry maybe some literary creation out of the Odu Ifa divination.  That Abimbola named his poetry "Ifa Divination" does not make the poetry Ifa.   Anyone could create a book out of the Bible to make the reading lively for the uneducated. But the verses in the Bible remains, according to the believers, the words of God. So it is with Ifa.  I'm not around some of the Ifa books right now, but let me borrow from the wikkipedia which gives definition of Ifa as such:     In traditional Yoruba culture, Ifá refers to a system of divination and the verses of the literary corpus known as the Odú Ifá presented in the course of divination. Orunmila is the deity associated with Ifa diviniation. In some instances, the name Orunmila is used interchangeably with the word Ifa. Orunmila brought Ifa diviniation to the world.   Ifá originated in West Africa among the Yourba ethnic groups. It is also practiced among believers in Lucumi, (sometimes referred to as Santería), Candomblé, West African & Diaspora Vodou, and similarly transplanted Orisa'Ifa lineages in the New World. In Togo, it is known as Afa, where the Vodou deities come through and speak. In many of their Egbes, it is Alaundje who is honored as the first Bokono to have been taught how to divine the destiny of humans using the holy system of Afa."  Wikkipedia.     Ifa is a system of divination, not creative writing 101. Ifa is Orunmila, and Orunmila is the father of Ifa.      In short, The verses of Ifa were brought by Orunmila, not Setilu, not Abimbola's poetry, and not a literary creation of the kind that Brother Toyin defines in his essay below.    Ifa is a way of life. The verses have meanings and relate to events and palpable actions.  It tells of divination and what sacrifices one should make to avoid impending disaster. The Ifa verses are incantations, not mere poetry.  A Holy recitations, not creative writing 101.     Brother Toyin, I'll look around and read your Abimbola's poetry, then hopefully by the end of the week we'll discuss further. Shikena. afis

--- On Mon, 4/5/10, toyin adepoju <toyin....@googlemail.com> wrote:

From: toyin adepoju <toyin....@googlemail.com> Subject: Re: Odu Ifa Ose Meji To: "afis" <odide...@yahoo.com> Cc: naijap...@yahoogroups.com, "Odua" <omo...@yahoogroups.com>, Bato...@aol.com Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 1:13 PM

Afis, Please.... 1.How do you know odu Ifa were handed down by Orunmila? Does Orunmila really exist? Ih he exists,in what form does he exist? To what degree is Orunmila a creation of the human mind and to what degree is he an entity,personality or force that exists independent of the human mind? Must I believe unequivocally in the existence of Orunmila to be able  to advantage of Orisa and Ifa spiritual technologies? Can Orunmila manifest himself so that his existence becomes a matter of knowledge rather than of faith? What is meant by the Yoruba  idea that without human beings there would be no orisa? How plausible in actuality is the account in Chinua Achebe's Arrow of God that a particular deity was self consciously,deliberately,  created by the people of its community?

2.Is it not more probable that a human being,perhaps Setilu, actually created the Ifa system? And others built on it? Is there anything about the system that is beyond human mental capacity to create? How do we account for the similarities between Ifa and other divinatory and knowledge systems,from divination to computing,as in the use of binary structure? Do these  similarities indicate a common divine creation or similarities in the workings of the human mind? Does creation by a human being rule out divine inspiration? For an imaginative depiction of how Ifa might have been created,one could see the earliest  posts in my blog ifastudentandteacher.blogspot.com.

3. Why do people not create more Biblical verses? Simple.At a point in time a group of people came together and decided that they would decide what should be in the Bible and what should not. After that they declared the process closed.no more additions. The canon formation is purely a human affair arranged for purposes of doctrinal organization.The Bible is written by human beings, at times inspired,but humans. Even if God inspired part of the Bible he did not write it himself.He worked through human beings.As for the Quran, Muhammed presents it as dictated by an angel, which,to me, is possible.He describes himself as the last of the prophets.He is welcome to his point of view on that.He is not the first or the last person to ascribe a privileged role to themselves at the centre of divine affairs. The ECKANKAR group claims that their teacher,a an Anglo-American, is the emissary of the ultimate being and is the highest spiritual teacher in the universe.

4. Why should Ifa  recitations not change? What would they lose from changing? I read them and frankly speaking a good number of the ones I  have read can be changed without altering their meaning or even their poetic strength. Most of the ese Ifa in Abimbola's books for example,do not have the poetic intensity and linguistic sophistication of the Biblical psalms, for example. Their kind of strength is different,since they were created for easy memorizing,lending them to easy modification. What is there in their content that is so sacrosanct that they cannot be modified and still have value?

5. You concluded by asserting the unchanging meaning, not just the form of ese Ifa.So? A work of literature can be modified and its meaning remain intact.In fact,meaning,particularly with reference to the elasticity of ese Ifa can easily  be expanded or contracted depending on how one chooses  to use the existing forms. Anyway,must one use only existing Ifa literary forms in practicing Ifa?True,creating or modifying ese Ifa leads to the question of authenticity,but the question is-must the authentic be what does not  change?

6.Ifa is literature. The Bible is literature. The Koran is literature. What is literature? Literature can be described as an imaginative form of expression.It is imaginative because ,in its language and general  presentation of its subject,it relies to a greater or lesser degree on recreating what it presents so that the audience can experience the subject matter more intimately,in particular directions evoked by the artist.In doing that,it uses distinctive but universally used  forms of language as well as reshapes reality  imaginatively Such qualities of reshaping reality imaginatively  are represented by the ese ifa in Abimbola's Ifa Divination Poetry (Otua Meji a) in which the squirrel is advised by Ifa not to talk too much-: The slippery mouth; The mouth that cannot keep secrets; The trap set by mouth never fails to catch victims; It is the mouth of the talkative which kills the talkative; It is the mouth of he who talks at large which kills he who talks at large; It is talking too much which kills the eavesdropper. Ifa divination was performed for the Squirrel Who built a nest near the road The Squirrel was warned to be very careful Because he could not keep secrets... The fact that interaction between diviners and squirrels is not a conventional part of human reality,if at all,makes this personification of the squirrel,making it a figure that can talk and be spoken to, a literary device and the poem where this appears literary. The squirrel forgets the warning of Ifa and announces to passing humans that he has just had children. The humans ask to see the children and the poem concludes on a sadly delightful note.In Yoruba it reads   Won fi awon omo okere leri  iyan Won si ba obe lo  which Abimbola translates as  They put the children on the Squirrel on top of pounded yam And they disappeared with soup  but,the second part of which,perhaps, can also  read "they escorted soup away" as one sees off or escorts a friend some distance from one's house,thereby creating an ironic description of the plight of the baby squirrels who have become part of soup.

This ese ifa creates a delightful narrative through making the squirrel seem human,thereby playing on the  chattering sound it makes with its teeth as well as its fate as a human dietary delicacy. By highlighting the squirrel as a family man,which it actually is,the poem could provoke in the audience an identification with the animal as a creature who shares human qualities,facilitating perception from within the squirrels perception of itself,however limited,possibly evoking a reconsideration of the act of feeding on animals as well  projecting a quality that is widespread in human life-the danger of lack of discipline in speech. All these interpretive possibilities emerging from the personification of the squirrel are introduced by the striking opening lines,which through rhythmic patterning of lines,repetition of a central idea in each  lines with an new expansion of the idea in each succeeding line-the talkative mouth: it cannot keep secrets;its is trap that catches victims,it never fails to do so;it kills the talkative;it kills the who talks at large;it kills the eavesdropper. The mouth is described as if it is an independent agent,as if it is the entire human being, thereby suggesting the compulsive character of being talkative-one's mouth seems to control one-one's  brain seems to be in one's mouths....The parallelism of using similar sentence structures in each line,varying them by repeating the basic idea using a similar or identical word-talking-talkative-adding new elaborations of the idea in each line,adds to the force of the basic idea-being talkative can kill,illustrated in subsequent lines by the tragic story of the squirrel.

Is it not possible to write a poem guided by the literary principles eviodent in this poem?Would such a poem be less worthy as an ese ifa? Is it not possible to write a poem different in form from any ese ifa  that can be helpful in learning about Ifa? Each ese ifa in Abimbola's  book opens with striking poetic lines like   No wise man can tie water into a knot on the edges of his garment No sages knows the grains of sand on the earth in which,as in this example,commonplace observations are articulated in a manner that suggests proverbial truths and possibly deeper philosophical ideas. This is literature because it creates a fresh appreciation of the commonplace (The English poet William Wordsworth's description of poetry) Along with this Ifa literature has some striking erotic passages,as in the descriptions of Iyanla in Babatunde Lawal'[s Gelede Spectacle,like the Biblical Song  of Songs is totally an erotic poem,however the church has tried to pretty it up.When the Koran in Sura al Nur describes Allah as light,a glittering star,that is literary because it evokes a physical image which helps us imagine the qualities of something not physical -Allah.

A good part of what is in ese ifa is fictive because it is not meant to be taken literally.Do squirrels talk with babalawo,with Chicken Egg ( Eji Ogbe b),Menstrual Flow ( Iwori Meji b) Cock( Okanran Meji b) Ojontarigi,the wife of Death (Ogunda Meji a) Lion (Ogunda Meji b)..all examples from Wande Abimbola,Ifa Divination Poetry,with the particular odu in which the example appears in brackets.Its being fictive and imaginative does not mean it is deceptive.It communicates an idea that is not literally,directly presented. One understands,dor example,the folly of the squirrel's actions even though it is practically untrue that such an incident ever took place.That is a quality of literature,that Biodun Jeyifo calls the "truthful lie".

The major difference between Ifa,Charles Dickens and Arthur Miller,whom you mention is that Ifa literature is directed at serving  an overtly sacred purpose as part of a spiritual technology while the others are overtly secular..But that purpose in Ifa is partly served through literary devices similar to those of Dickens and Miller. Thanks toyin

On 5 April 2010 13:24, afis <odide...@yahoo.com> wrote:

"Someone on the blog Ifa Yesterday,Ifa Today, Ifa Tomorrow has even suggested the possibility of creating new ese ifa that reflect  the realities of social  conditions of Ifa practitioners in places  different from Yorubaland,such as in the US."  By Brother Toyin Adepoju.       My comment:  Ifa is not a literature book like "A Christmas Carol" or "Death of A Salesman" kind of.  Brother Toyin, do you ever think of creating more "verses" in the Bible or "Al Qur'an"?  Yes, Ifa "verses" can be reviewed and opinions shared on them, but creating new verses would demean Ifa and relates it to mere fiction. Ifa is a Way. It was the guiding light (Ohun atani si ona) of the Yoruba, until the "White Dusts" arrived in cyclonic storm, blinding and burying the souls of the Yoruba in self-created religious sand dunes.   Though Ifa was not in written form for decades, the Ifa verses had remained intact from one area of Yoruba to another.  Ifa was handed down by Orunmila Baba Ifa, just as Muhammad brought the "Al Qur'an".    Its recitations never change.  Eji Ogbe is Eji Ogbe anywhere, "Ose Meji" is "Ose meji" in Yorubaland.

Anyone who adds more "verses" therefore, has added non-Ifa "verses".

[toyin adepoju]

D. Response to Adelakun's contribution at the bottom of this mail:

 1.The fact that it is oral doesnt mean that it should be subjected to regular review otherwise, the integrity will be tampered with.

 What is integrity  in relation to ese ifa? Exact pattern of words in Ifa literature? Again,I assert that my reading of Ifa literature so far indicates that its form is more flexible of manipulation than modern Western and African poetry, for example. With Ifa prose literature, which is not as linguistically closely woven as poetry, the point holds even better. Most, if not all, the ese ifa I have read so far from various sources, though not many, are amenable to modification without loss of meaning or even imaginative force, which is the core of literary value.

 2. I don't think they[ babalawos-Ifa priests] are not analytical. If you have spent all your life studying ifa, you will apply it to life situations the way people do the Bible. The fact that we crammed texts in school doesnt mean we cannot subject it to analysis when required to...

 I agree to the point about application. I will need to examine your point carefully, particularly in the light of other religious traditions which had writing and memorization, Judaism and Islam, and also had a critical relationship to texts, as in Judaism. I will see what a philosopher like Paulin Hountondji who holds a similar negative view on orality  and an anthropologist like Jack Goody has to say on this and chew them in relation  to your views. For the moment, however, the question is-what is gained or lost by memorizing or not memorizing? Does an emphasis on memorising not suggest a limitation in relation to the meaning and form of a text as components that can be appreciated without such  learning by rote? For me, I never try to memorise. I am more interested in understanding, after which with time, memorisation might emerge spontaneously through repeated engagement with the text. I never encouraged my students to memorise because I see it as blocking appreciation of the structure and meaning of literature as not dependent on literal memorising of literature. One  can memorise and not understand.

 3.Jesus could have created verses of Scripture cos he was a key player but none of the pastors who preach in his name today can do that. Babalawos, like pastors, can repeat ese ifa and Scritures but are not supposed to add to it! Otherwise, the human factor comes in and ruins everything. 

 You have a point about levels of authority as they emerge in the course of  religious history. The validity of your point hinges partly on the notion of creation of al ese ifa by a founder remote in time, like Jesus. I doubt if that will hold. Abimbola,Emmanuel and Lawal demonstrate change in the development of the Orisa tradition in Yorubaland and in ese ifa. Those claims must be taken on board and tackled before one  can hold that ese ifa is an unchanging form. We also need to tacke Drewal’s claim that babalawo create new ese ifa, at times through dream inspiration. The babalawo Kolwaole Ostiola who proved this info to Drewal has led to most insightful  perspecctives on Ifa, and has published on the subject valuable work verifiable when comparing  Ifa literature in Africa and the Diaspora.

 4.why do we need to 'upgrade' these books like some academic material

 The key factor here is on the notion of scripture. You, like many religious people, hold that scripture does not change, cannot be modified or added to,particularly after a period of canonisation. It seems to me though, that such characterisations of Ifa are contradicted by the evidence. If ese ifa have been created at different historical periods that means the system has been growing. Joseph Ohomina also claims that Ifa used to take human sacrifice at one time. Abosesde  Emmanuel in Ifa Festival tries to map the various stages in Yoruba corporate  and religious history.

 My argument can be summed up as follows-to each his own and do what works for you. Why  must a babalowo insist on traditional forms when they can create their own forms more suited to the individual history and experience of material context of life of themselves and their clients?

toyin

On 5 April 2010 19:53, bimbola adelakun <adunn...@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

My two kobo contribution:

 

I would also hold that ese ifa cannot be described as identical with the fixed character of Biblical literature where a group of people fixed the canon once and for all. Precisely why not? The significance of the oral aspect of the ese ifa and the very practical manner in which they are used implies that they are more amenable to modification and to addition than works like the Bible. I do not think so. I guess it is because the Jews discovered writing first. The fact that it is oral doesnt mean that it should be subjected to regular review otherwise, the integrity will be tampered with. Was it not human beings who composed the existing ese ifa? Just like the Bible verses, yes
 

 

I also suspect that the memorization of ese ifa might be unnecessary, even for  a babalawo.I suspect,as some scholars in modern African philosophy have argued,that memorization, being a device used largely bcs of the absence of writing,has both its strengths and weaknesses. One of these weakness is that valuable effort is made in committing information to memory and less in analyzing that information. I don't think they are not analytical. If you have spent all your life studying ifa, you will apply it to life situations the way people do the Bible. The fact that we crammed texts in school doesnt mean we cannot subject it to analysis when required to... Such limitations of analysis now means that such a system is liable to be stuck in repeating old ways of doing things because the essential value of a practice cannot be interpreted apart from its manner of expression.

I would hold that the babalawo,among other skills he or she cultivates,is a student of literature who is being trained,to some degree as a literary artist.If I might use the example of Jesus,who,like the creators of the ese ifa, was an oral  literary artist,a storyteller, who created stories to communicate his ideas.If he did not do that and relied only on old scriptures,he could not have communicated that message as effectively. I suppose this is different. Jesus could have created verses of Scripture cos he was a key player but none of the pastors who preach in his name today can do that. Babalawos, like pastors, can repeat ese ifa and Scritures but are not supposed to add to it! Otherwise, the human factor comes in and ruins everything. As it is his brilliant and but simple parables have become part of world literature.He used images derived from his very simple,pre-industri al society,such as images from sheep herding and other images that are universal across time,such as those  traveling,having a party etc. Now,can similar points not be made using other imagery? Is Lagos less a fitting setting for such stories than Galilee? The Ifa stories seem less local in imagery than some of Jesus stories but the general point  holds,I think. I agree but why do we need to 'upgrade' these books like some academic material

 

I heard some years ago that Wande Abimbola was working on creating an Ifa university with the aid of UNESCO.I hope such ideas are realized one day and that a critical examination and adaptation of Ifa is central to such initiatives. I wonder,though, if there is not a critical need to look again at to what degree the Western classroom teaching style would fit Ifa studies for aspiring babalawos.

The school has been built. I suppose it is the one called 'School of ifa studies' in Oyo town.

---

From: toyin adepoju <toyin....@googlemail.com>

To: Omo...@yahoogroups.com; Yoruba Affairs <yoruba...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Mon, 5 April, 2010 8:23:22

Subject: Re: [OmoOdua] Odu Ifa Ose Meji

 

thanks Batokkinc.

It might be me who has mixed it up,not knowing of a difference between Ose Meji and Osa Meji.I will see Gleason again and hopefully check other sources.I will also keep the Indiana info in mind.They are clearly strong in African studies.Perhaps I should have studied there instead of coming to England from Nigeria since they also have a very powerful comparative literature department,that being my field.I might consider finding my way there still.

Batokkinc,I know your respect me and I respect you.At the same time,however, I would like us to examine critically our contrastive perspectives on the development or creation of ese ifa.I would like us to do it in a way that does not shy from taking apart the other person's argument while keeping our mutual respect in mind.

I am putting it this way because I have some strong feelings on Ifa,in spite of the fact that my exposure to the practice of Ifa in a traditional sense is quite limited.I am of the view that a number of traditionalist perspectives on Ifa are based on a misunderstanding of Ifa,such as the view that creating new ese ifa that reflect social conditions different from those of Yoruba land is adulteration and profanation, as you claim.Why should this be so?

Ese Ifa  are  fundamentally a body of literature,at times with a formulaic structure which can be easily imitated. One  can compose a basic ese ifa if they know the structure,particula rly the kind used in Abimbola's An Exposition of Ifa literary Corpus and Ifa Divination Poetry.I suspect that whatever spiritual  power the ese ifa might have might be not so much in the literature as a structure of words in and of itself but in other factors relating to the relationship between the literature and the human and performative context in which it is used.

There is a critical need to understand the dynamics of Ifa. Does it work and how does it work? What is its value to different kinds of enquiry? I would also hold that ese ifa cannot be described as identical with the fixed character of Biblical literature where a group of people fixed the canon once and for all. The significance of the oral aspect of the ese ifa and the very practical manner in which they are used implies that they are more amenable to modification and to addition than works like the Bible.Was it not human beings who composed the existing ese ifa? Bascom describes some of the process in which this is done,such as dream inspiration.

One should note,though, some very intriguing statements made by Pierre Verger on the value of the transmission of ase-the creative,cosmic  force that sustains and makes possible universal processes in nature and human life-through the oral dimension of ese ifa in his introduction to Ewe.I get the impression, however,that ase is a concept of universal applicability  and that ase is also transmitted through literature of various kinds.It might not be different from the proclamation of the English poet John Milton "A good book is the life blood of a master spirit,sealed and transmitted to a life beyond life"

I also suspect that the memorization of ese ifa might be unnecessary, even for  a babalawo.I suspect,as some scholars in modern African philosophy have argued,that memorization, being a device used largely bcs of the absence of writing,has both its strengths and weaknesses. One of these weakness is that valuable effort is made in committing information to memory and less in analyzing that information. Such limitations of analysis now means that such a system is liable to be stuck in repeating old ways of doing things because the essential value of a practice cannot be interpreted apart from its manner of expression.

Are we saying that one cannot grasp the meaning of an ese ifa without memorizing the whole poem or story? I doubt it.Is it also necessary to chant an entire poem in the divinatory process in the exact form in which one got it? I doubt it.Can one not improvise,even  on the spot within a divinatory session, ,make changes as one wants while keeping to a core meaning? Can one not even compose a new poem on the spot,inspired by the old poem?Can the process of composition not be part of the act  of divining? I think so.

I would hold that the babalawo,among other skills he or she cultivates,is a student of literature who is being trained,to some degree as a literary artist.If I might use the example of Jesus,who,like the creators of the ese ifa, was an oral  literary artist,a storyteller, who created stories to communicate his ideas.If he did not do that and relied only on old scriptures,he could not have communicated that message as effectively. As it is his brilliant and but simple parables have become part of world literature.He used images derived from his very simple,pre-industri al society,such as images from sheep herding and other images that are universal across time,such as those  traveling,having a party etc. Now,can similar points not be made using other imagery? Is Lagos less a fitting setting for such stories than Galilee? The Ifa stories seem less local in imagery than some of Jesus stories but the general point  holds,I think.

I suggest that there is a critical need to take forward the achievement represented by the creation of Ifa.Ifa has grown in terms of geographical spread.It should also grow in terms of approaches to its practice in a situation where various perspectives are proffered and possibly applied.

I heard some years ago that Wande Abimbola was working on creating an Ifa university with the aid of UNESCO.I hope such ideas are realized one day and that a critical examination and adaptation of Ifa is central to such initiatives. I wonder,though, if there is not a critical need to look again at to what degree the Western classroom teaching style would fit Ifa studies for aspiring babalawos.

I would hold that it is possible and even crucial that babalawos should be trained simultaneously in the traditional Ifa disciplines as well as in the full range of contemporary knowledge,and trained to critically examine their  own practices and the beliefs underlying Ifa.I am convinced that at the core of Ifa is an essence that is robust and elastic enough to grow under such expansive learning and scrutiny.Susanne Wenger put it well in relation to the Orisa tradition,although, in my view,with some exaggeration-there is no superstition in the Orisa tradition.I have performed an Orisanla invocation using a technique of Western magic and it seemed to have worked for me.I got the results I was looking for.My experience of Ifa also suggests that whatever spiritual force or forces work with Ifa will come if you invite them through interest and action,wherever you are,whatever medium you are using,whether in academic work or some more traditional medium.As the Bini babalawo Joseph Ohomina puts it,the odu,the forces behind action in Ifa, are spirits,although they are also represented in terms of literature. They do not speak a human language.Yoruba is essentially the language first used in the discovery of communicating with them but they cannot be restricted to the forms of Yoruba or related cultures.As Jesus,who was a keen student of spirit,put it in another context-the spirit bloweth where it listeth,and none knows whence it cometh and whither it goeth. People like him,though, used disciplines like prayer,fasting and withdrawal from society to attract, concentrate and focus the presence of spirit,or ase,a closely related category...The babalawo Awo Falokun Fatumbi also presents an invocation to achieve a similar goal in one of his essays on the document archive Scribd.

I  make theses propositions even though  I am not a babalawo because I am convinced that whatever  the babalawo  are doing must have some relationship to the scope of human possibilities already established in other human  practices,spiritual  and otherwise.

The Pierrer Verger Ewe book, along with his other books,can be got at the Pierre Verger Foundation which you can easily find through a Google search.I dont know how efficient their method of collecting payment is though since they dont seem to have a card payment option,although they look very well organized otherwise. There is a US publisher who sells the book although I have not been able to get her site again for some time.When I do I will let you know.You could also  try Ebay and random searches from time to time.It crops up occasionally but sells quick.

Do you mind if I share this discussion with other groups? Its always helpful to get a cross current of opinion.

Thanks

Toyin

On 5 April 2010 01:07, <Batokkinc@aol. com> wrote:

 

You can contact University of Indiana at Bloomington.  They have some Ese Ifa saved on CD.  The Eses were recorde in 1965 at Oshogbo.  I have a copy.

 

In a message dated 4/4/2010 4:39:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, toyin.adepoju@ googlemail. com writes:

One of the best things anyone can do is to collate all renditions of ese ifa in writing,so as to help to give an idea of the scope oif literary inventivenes compassed under each odu and the entire corpus in general.It would also be wonde4fyul to gather together all existing ese Ifa, in all languages,incuding Yoruba and the languages used by Ifa students in the diaspora as in Brazil and Cuba,for example.The University of Ibadan Yoruba department is already taping and  and translating   Ifa literature,keeping the records in audio tapes and writing.At least I  got that impression when I visited there some years ago.An effort to collate as many ese ifa as possible and make them available,perhaps both in written form,in audio from,to give a feel of their spoken expression and online,would indicate the sheer wealth of the literature  for the world to see.

 

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[toyin adepoju]

RESPONSE TO OBAFEMI ORIGUNWA'S CONTRIBUTION AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS MAIL 

B.Your point about the divine origin of Ifa can also be related to Obafemi Origunwa's  rich and impressively stated assertions:

Each ritual language is a logic unto itself and with it comes its corresponding method. So as Yoruba grammar is best understood in Yoruba linguistic terms so is our epistemology (theory of knowledge formation) best understood according to Yoruba indigenous knowledge systems. Ese Ifa is the living word of Olodumare. Its not literature. Its not a formula. It is a living principle of creation and in the same way that even an accomplished doctor cannot simply dream up a new operation or medicine, a lawyer cannot just invent a law, a babalawo cannot just have a dream and invent an ese ifa. Likewise, we approach the mysteries as living entities to whom responsible elders introduce us and facilitate our relationships. The point is

that they are alive.

1. His points about understanding Yoruba epistemology in terms of Yoruba indigenous knowledge systems is a most vital point and one of the signal achievements of the development of modern studies in Yoruba visual art,as in the work Rowland Abiodun,Babatunde Lawal, Farris Thompson and others, along with scholars in Nigeria of which my acquaintance is more limited than the ones I have mentioned because it seems their works are more prominent. A lot of work still needs to be done in this field and the work of Pierrer Verger in Ewe:The Uses of Plants in Yoruba Society is a vital contribution here since it indicates principles of classification of c expected outcomes and the materials and plants and their methods of use for producing those outcomes, including incantations and odu ifa,to which the incantations are often related. He also provides a fascinating discussion of the significance of ase in terms of oral verbalisation as a method of teaching along with other vital points. I expect there other works in this field one will find if one searches.

There is much to gain from meditating on the content and spirit of Obafemi’s rich summations. His statement about endogenous-integral to a context-epistemology is also vital to the point made by maxima175(see text of contributions to the debate) about developing African technologies in scientific terms, and will help us to point out the challenges and implications of such an aspiration, which it seems Maxima is not adequately sensitive to. For now, though, I respond to Pius below about relationships between literature and scripture, which is the point being made by Obafemi about ese ifa being the living word of Olodumare.

 First, I note that the texts are created by human beings, meaning that describing them as the word of Olodumare is either an act of faith, of speculation or of a form of knowledge not available to most humans and which, therefore, cannot be adequately evaluated by people who want to assess the validity of the claim of the divine origin or validity of Ifa.. Even if we admit that Olodumare inspired the ese ifa,is this inspiration not mediated by the dispositions of those who communicate the divine inspiration? After all the Bible shows that the Biblical writer of the Old Testament claims that the Jews were commanded by the creator of the universe to steal other people’s lands and commit genocide against them, because God had promised the land to them. Any human being who showed such values would be considered a demon but the Bible says God did it.

 It is also true that the practice of Ifa is significantly patriarchal in Nigeria and the more prominent women who have become Ifa priests have been from outside Nigeria. I wait to be challenged on this, if at all. Do Olodumare and Orunmila  not recognise women too? Why is Ifa priesthood  mostly if not entirely an all male  affair in spite of the prominence  of the female personality of Odu in Ifa,being the wife of Ifa who is central to the wisdom and power of Ifa?

2. Its not literature. Its not a formula.

All scriptures, I know, ,African, Asian and Western are works of imaginative literature. I gave an example of the ese ifa in which  Ifa  divines for a   squirrel. A work in which something that does not happen in actuality- a squirrel being divined for and the squirrel talking with human beings- is shown as taking place  to make a point, is an imaginative work, and, as a piece of verbal expression, it is therefore a work of literature. Diviners do not talk to and cast  Ifa for squirrels, therefore that ese ifa and many more which present fictive scenarios  are works of literature because such imaginative, and at times fictional accounts of reality are central techniques of literature. I have stated that they are different from secular literature because they are directed towards an overtly sacred or magical purpose, as the case may be, unlike secular literature, which might also have a sacred or magical value, but which are not generally understood  in that sacred or magical  context or not in terms of  that context as being indispensable to their significance. Maxima tries to debunk my claim that ese ifa  are often dramatisations of fictive scenarios,  depicting scenes that never took place and which are not meant to be taken literally as fact. Maxima claims that ese ifa use metaphor not fiction. An ese ifa as in the example I gave, a poem that consist wholly of an account of discussions between a diviner and a squirrel, and between the squirrel and human beings is more a work of fiction than simply a metaphor. A metaphor is style of expression in which the main idea being referred is referred to indirectly through another referent. In that sense, the story of the squirrel is metaphorical for the dangers of talking too much. It goes beyond metaphor into full blown fiction, however, on account of the length of the metaphorical elaboration in the story of the encounter between the squirrel, the diviner and the people who ate the squirrel’s children. The same goes for many Ifa narratives, including those dealing with Olodumare, the  Orisa or deities. In fact, it is likely to be true that most ese ifa are works of fiction, and deliberately so. In that sense, they would be closer to the fictive parables of Jesus and the parables of the Islamic poet Rumi, than to the purported historical sections of the Bible. Fiction is one form of religious writing and Yoruba sacred literature is a delightful example of that. The delightful challenge for the audience challenge is trying to understand the metaphorical meaning being evoked by these fictions. This fictive quality and the quality of whimsy, of playfulness, they oftem demonstrate, more in keeping with Zen Buddhist parabolic narrative and the short stories of Rumi, than to the gravitas of the Bible, suggest, to me, suggest a creative flexibility of  world view by the artists who created the ese ifa, as well as a sense of not taking themselves too seriously, thereby creating a situation that enables the world view to remain alive and flexible and adaptable. In that sense, it is different from the unwavering gravitas of the Bible and the insistence on doctrinal conformity in monotheistic traditions. I suspect that this suggests the Orisa tradition is based more on engagement and practice than on doctrine. I will give more examples of ese ifa,some of which show a delightful irreverence towards the Orisa or deities, that buttress this point, in my response to Pius below.

 Also, Ifa literature, as I have seen it so far, is at times formulaic. That means that it is written according to a pattern that is  repeated in various ese ifa. This pattern is evident in similarities between various ese ifa in the opening structure, body and  conclusion. I have seen this particularly in the short poems in Abimbola’s  works but I expect other patterns in other ese ifa, even though this expectation is speculative. These  formulaic forms  are  easy to remember and use as means of recognising particular human issues and challenges prescriptions for addressing them in the divinatory context, or even as a form of reflection on human issues outside such a context.

  Even if they are inspired by Olodumare,this inspiration can be expressed through a formula. Inspiration and  human creativity can converge. But I want to note that the existence of Olodumare, Orisa and other spiritual  entities are not self evident and are acts of faith, speculation or forms of knowledge not generally available to most people. So they can not be presented as conclusive arguments, although such  ideas are vital to explaining a world view and an epistemology.

3.It is a living principle of creation and in the same way that even an accomplished doctor cannot simply dream up a new operation or medicine, a lawyer cannot just invent a law, a babalawo cannot just have a dream and invent an ese fa. .

If Ifa is a living principle of creation, is the training of the Ifa priest not to enable him enter into relationship with his living principle? If that is so why can he not create  new ese ifa under the inspiration of this living principle? Its important to distinguish between inspiration in religion and canon formation. There are works that were not out in the Bible while others were left out, for example. There exist works today which to me are superior to   what is in the Bible, certainly superior to the genocidal sections of the Bioble in which Yahweh is described as commanding the Jews to wipe out an entire people and all their livestock. But they are not in the Bible. Those who decided on the Biblical canon and the religious authorities closed the door to any further additions. At the same time, however, various sub groups in various religions have their own  revered writings, which approach the status of scripture that stand alongside the majors scriptures, even, if, as with Judaism and Islam, they don’t replace the central scriptures. Examples of those are the stories of Nahman of Bratslav in the Jewish Hasidic sect,a number of Kabbalistic works in Judaism, of which the Zohar is prominent, the poetry of Milarepa in Tibetan Buddhism and the poetry  of  Rumi in Islam, and perhaps the Islamic works of Al Arabi. In Judaism and Islam, such texts are not the  he level of the closed scriptures of the Torah ,the Talmud and the Koran but the picture seems different in Hinduism and Buddhism, which are not monotheistic religions, and  which seem to recognise the validity of the accretion of a variety of scriptural texts  across time, even up till the present, understood as a continuity from the Vedas, the earliest Hindu scriptures and in Buddhism, from the inspiration, if not the literal words of the Biddha.

The point being made by here by Obafemi   is more forceful  in relation to the examples from medicine and law, which derive from  different social and epistemic contexts  than  that assumed by Bimbola’s  assertion of ese ifa as " a living principle of creation" and  "the living word of Olodumare." The significance of the examples for the more intellectually based professions of medicine and law is centred on the value of consensus in making new laws, new medications and new surgical  procedures. Of course, lawyers contribute new laws, politicians sponsor bills that are  passed into law, doctors and pharmacists create new medications and new surgical  procedures. Of course, these innovations have  to be passed through specific processes before they are accepted by their peers. It is not the same as scriptural canons like the Koran and  the Bible that are not added to after they have been fixed. I would hold, though, that I cant see why new ese ifa can not be created with the understanding that older ese ifa  were created across a period  of time by individuals responding to personal and social developments and other bababalwo deciding whether or not to learn and use the new ese ifa created by one babalawo or another. A  useful model here   is that that of the ritual chalk  graphic art of Olokun Bini  priests  which vary and are unique according to each priest although formed according to a standard symbolic visual  morphology.

  It would be helpful to know when the idea that eses ifa are not created by ordinary human being such as babalawo, but instead are divine creations   became  so visible .

 4. a babalawo cannot just have a dream and invent an ese fa.

Why not? The English astrologer/scholar Geoffrey Cornelius describes dreams as the earliest from of divination. People have reported seeing the future in dreams. Dreams are the point of interaction between human and non human forms of being in various epistemologies. L. E. Roache In “Psychological Aspects of Edan Ogboni”( African Arts, Vol. 4, No. 2 (Winter, 1971), pp. 48-53+80) describes how the spirit of the edan ogboni interacts with its owner through dreams. People describe interaction with ancestors and departed parents in dremas. Sussane Wenger described a dream encounter with symbols  that led to her work at Osun Osogbo. The French philosopher Rene Descartes describes three symbolic   dreams as central to his discovering his calling in life, leading to his achievement as the founder of modern Western philosophy. The chemist Friedrich  Kekule describes two dreams  as central to his pioneering work in organic chemistry, climaxing in the second dream which enabled him synthesise his previous research  leading to his  discovery of  the chemical structure of the benzene ring. Interestingly this dream involves a snake, a recurring image in the design of opon ifa, the ifa divination tray, evocative of Osumare,the cosmic serpent who holds the world together, perhaps a cosmic presence that enables cosmic unity which it  represents by the coiling of its body in a circle around the world, and in relation to the snake motif ascribed by Mazisi Kunene to classical Zulu thought in his introduction to Anthem of the Decades,

In dreams the conscious mind is at rest and the subconscious and other aspects of the self are free. People fly in dreams and even at time engage in lucid dreaming, in which they dream while knowing that they dreaming. Benin Olokun priests place their symbols by the side of the bed so that Olokun can communicate  them while dreaming. In fact, using dreams as a doorway to knowledge is a discipline that everyone needs to learn. People can be particularly creative through dreaming.

 5. we approach the mysteries as living entities.

The idea of ese ifa in terms of mystery is vital because of their conception as manifestations of or  as related to spiritual entities. This conception implies that even though ese ifa are works of verbal expression, they derive from odu, which,to put it in my own way,are children or expressions of Odu, the wife of Ifa, who as Igba Odu, is the calabash of existence, the ground and totality of being  from whom flows the wisdom of Ifa. Mystery here therefore represents a recognition of aspects of being that are not easily available to ratiocinative  or sense based knowledge or knowledge derived from emotions  and are therefore esoteric, meaning, in this sense ,that they  have to accessed through the development of faculties of knowledge not available to the person not exposed to them through a specialised training. This training is described as  not being part of the general epistemic resources available  through convetional education.

If this is the point Bimbola is making I would argue that I suspect that the Yoruba epistemology he speaks of through which Yoruba indigenous knowledge systems can be appreciated might not be as esoteric, as hidden, as unavailable to non practitioners of the traditional system  as they   might seem. I would hold that enough knowledge might be available in the public domain about the Yoruba and Orisa traditions and other mutually illuminating systems for an adequately informed person to gain access to these aspects of existence, perhaps involving spiritual entities, without being trained in the traditional sense. How could this be possible? Because, first, you need access to information from practitioners, which you can get if you interact with them, and secondly through published texts, to the ideas, descriptions and characterisations  associated with the odu. The description of Odu suggests that it refers to a particular characterisation of the ground of being, the source of existence, understood in terms of the procreative capacities associated with female biology and the spiritual associations linked to that in classical Yoruba and Orisa thought.

Relating to the various odu can be understood as relating with expressions of this ground of being. The Bini Ifa priest Jospeh Ohomina describes the odu as “spirits whose origin we do not know. We understand only a small fraction of their significance”, even though, according to him, “they are behind the efficacy of everything we[babalawo] prepare”.

If spirits exist, I think what one needs first is a description of a spirit’s  characteristics. These   constitute its expression and  one’s  primary mental link to it. These characteristics can be expressed in visual form, which might be anthropomorphic, animalistic, elemental  or abstract, as the use of geometric forms, or even all these and more simultaneously to indicate various possibilities of expression and further evoke  one’s engagement with various aspects of existence, and possibly suggest the unity of being which is experienced by human beings as a continuum  of relationships within and between the concrete, physical world and the  abstract world of the mind. You then have a range of choices of how to get in touch with the spirit, from various types of invocation, which may include visualisation, meditation, chanting of sounds associated with the spirit, such as its name, dancing, drumming, various forms of ritual, to using plants, or a combination of these. The information on Odu can be correlated from various sources, and methods exist in various books of how to invoke spirits. Practice then follows.

7.to whom responsible elders introduce us and facilitate our relationships. The point is that they are alive.

I have read  that there are Ifa priests in orun, the spirit world. Can they be encouraged to communicate with us? All those babalawo who have passed over, will they insist that we belong to a school in the material world before they will teach us? If Olodumare and Orunmila exist,will they not agree to inspire a sincere, dedicated and dogged aspirant? I think the issue here is not so much access to spirit, in which my experience is summed up by these sayings from the Galilean teacher: “The spirit bloweth where it listeth...the harvest is plenteous but the labourers are few..” . The more challenging question is about not reinventing the wheel, moving more smoothly over terrain already crossed by others with the help of those who have done it before while they  facilitate  your knowledge of the rules so you dont burn your fingers. Noting that however, what in Western esotericism  is known as the solitary path is for those who want to do things on their own  and face the consequences. I think one can make significant progress in Ifa through self training as well as attain a degree of initiation. Spirit might be best understood as  ubiquitous  and mobile. Perhaps its engament with Ifa  is best described as  not confined to traditional Ifa teachers and practices.

I am indebted for the development of this  idea  the English occultist Dion Fortune as she presents a similar  opinion, in the context of Weatern esoericism, in  Applied Magic and Sane Occultism in relation to working with   esoteric systems. It is reotrnced by the perspectives of the Ifa priest Joseph Ohomina and the Orisa devotee, Susanne Wenger, although they might not identify fully with my position.

 toyin

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[toyin adepoju]

afis.

thanks.

This is what you wrote:

"I have not read Abimbola's "Ifa Divination Poetry", but the way you describe the contents, in my view, that is not Ifa divination per se. 

Abimbola's poetry maybe some literary creation out of the Odu Ifa divination.  That Abimbola named his poetry "Ifa Divination" does not make the poetry Ifa.

 

Anyone could create a book out of the Bible to make the reading lively for the uneducated. But the verses in the Bible remains, according to the believers, the words of God.

So it is with Ifa. 

Thanks for clarifying that by this that you did not mean that Abimbola made up the verses.

toyin

On 8 April 2010 20:40, afis <odide...@yahoo.com> wrote:

A.Now to start with Afis’ objections:

"1. Afis responds to my quoting Wande Abimbola’s translations of ese ifa by stating that he does not know of that schjolar and that his work is not Ifa and must be made up. Who is Wande Abimbola? "  By Brother Toyin Adepoju.         My comment:  First, I thank you for the time and reasoning you put into your latest analyses on Ifa, it shows you're of serious mind.  However, my brother Toyin, you've to stay on Factual Avenue if you want us to have good Discourse. I never indicate in any of my postings that Wande Abimbola's Ifa narratives were made up. What I implied was that I have not come accross Abimbola, and you should give me until this weekend to read about him.  In fact I read a short Bio on him shortly after you mentioned his name and his works. I think that shows I am taking you seriously my brother.  So as I had said at the onset, I will not argue blindly until I read Abimbola's work on Ifa.     Right now, I'm on my way to watch my child run some Tracks, when I have time this weekend I'll respond to yours.  Thanks for your analyses. Okay my brother, peace. Shikena. afis

[maxim...@yahoo.com]

So, how do we understand akara and moyin moyin (or moinmoin) as food in the eurocentric sense?

Is there any exact equivalent of this in the eurocentric diet or world?

 

What is the equivalent of ewe ela in latin, talk less of english?

 

And how can english purport to "know" the significance of akara, Ela and ewe ela as specific entities when Ifa speaks, referring to them? How do we even begin to "see" the various levels of knowledge, thought and implications in a spherical thought system?

 

With all those quotes by europeans or eurocentric Afrikans, how do we even begin to "know" let alone understand?

The real question that intellectuals may need to ask themselves, when they make suppositions based on their eurocentric training is: "Are we really able to look at this and learn with what we have? If not, what do we need to really look and see?"

 

The place to begin these is to go to the source itself: the professionals trained in that system, without any preconceptions. How do you compare the left hand to the right one when you only have one of them? Or how do you clap your hands with only one hand without really just hallucinating? Or how is Bascom qualified to translate Olorun as "lord of the sky" or "sky god" when he is patently not Yoruba? How do we assume that orisa means "god" in english or that esu is "evil"?

 

When the europeans began this duplicity business, the first thing they did about 2,000 years ago was to name their own time, using their own "gods" and to name their own measures, different from the measures of others. The crime is that all the others have "agreed" with them through their own ignorance of what is theirs and even more eggregiously, the supposition that the missconceptions they have about their world are true conceptions.

 

To gain real knowledge and not mere secondary suppositions, we must shorn ourselves of the assumptions of fullness.

 

Ire o.

 

O.E.

---

From: toyin adepoju <toyin....@googlemail.com>

To: Omo...@yahoogroups.com; WoleSoyinkaSociety <WoleSoyin...@yahoogroups.com>; Yoruba Affairs <yoruba...@googlegroups.com>; usaafricadialogue <USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>
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Sent: Thu, April 8, 2010 12:23:49 PM

Subject: Re: [OmoOdua] Odu Ifa Ose Meji

 

D. Response to Adelakun's contribution at the bottom of this mail:

 1.The fact that it is oral doesnt mean that it should be subjected to regular review otherwise, the integrity will be tampered with.

 What is integrity  in relation to ese ifa? Exact pattern of words in Ifa literature? Again,I assert that my reading of Ifa literature so far indicates that its form is more flexible of manipulation than modern Western and African poetry, for example. With Ifa prose literature, which is not as linguistically closely woven as poetry, the point holds even better. Most, if not all, the ese ifa I have read so far from various sources, though not many, are amenable to modification without loss of meaning or even imaginative force, which is the core of literary value.

 2. I don't think they[ babalawos-Ifa priests] are not analytical. If you have spent all your life studying ifa, you will apply it to life situations the way people do the Bible. The fact that we crammed texts in school doesnt mean we cannot subject it to analysis when required to...

 I agree to the point about application. I will need to examine your point carefully, particularly in the light of other religious traditions which had writing and memorization, Judaism and Islam, and also had a critical relationship to texts, as in Judaism. I will see what a philosopher like Paulin Hountondji who holds a similar negative view on orality  and an anthropologist like Jack Goody has to say on this and chew them in relation  to your views. For the moment, however, the question is-what is gained or lost by memorizing or not memorizing? Does an emphasis on memorising not suggest a limitation in relation to the meaning and form of a text as components that can be appreciated without such  learning by rote? For me, I never try to memorise. I am more interested in understanding, after which with time, memorisation might emerge spontaneously through repeated engagement with the text. I never encouraged my students to memorise because I see it as blocking appreciation of the structure and meaning of literature as not dependent on literal memorising of literature. One  can memorise and not understand.

 3.Jesus could have created verses of Scripture cos he was a key player but none of the pastors who preach in his name today can do that. Babalawos, like pastors, can repeat ese ifa and Scritures but are not supposed to add to it! Otherwise, the human factor comes in and ruins everything. 

 You have a point about levels of authority as they emerge in the course of  religious history. The validity of your point hinges partly on the notion of creation of al ese ifa by a founder remote in time, like Jesus. I doubt if that will hold. Abimbola,Emmanuel and Lawal demonstrate change in the development of the Orisa tradition in Yorubaland and in ese ifa. Those claims must be taken on board and tackled before one  can hold that ese ifa is an unchanging form. We also need to tacke Drewal’s claim that babalawo create new ese ifa, at times through dream inspiration. The babalawo Kolwaole Ostiola who proved this info to Drewal has led to most insightful  perspecctives on Ifa, and has published on the subject valuable work verifiable when comparing  Ifa literature in Africa and the Diaspora.

 4.why do we need to 'upgrade' these books like some academic material

 The key factor here is on the notion of scripture. You, like many religious people, hold that scripture does not change, cannot be modified or added to,particularly after a period of canonisation. It seems to me though, that such characterisations of Ifa are contradicted by the evidence. If ese ifa have been created at different historical periods that means the system has been growing. Joseph Ohomina also claims that Ifa used to take human sacrifice at one time. Abosesde  Emmanuel in Ifa Festival tries to map the various stages in Yoruba corporate  and religious history.

 My argument can be summed up as follows-to each his own and do what works for you. Why  must a babalowo insist on traditional forms when they can create their own forms more suited to the individual history and experience of material context of life of themselves and their clients?

toyin

On 5 April 2010 19:53, bimbola adelakun <adunnibabe@yahoo. com> wrote:

My two kobo contribution:

 

I would also hold that ese ifa cannot be described as identical with the fixed character of Biblical literature where a group of people fixed the canon once and for all. Precisely why not? The significance of the oral aspect of the ese ifa and the very practical manner in which they are used implies that they are more amenable to modification and to addition than works like the Bible. I do not think so. I guess it is because the Jews discovered writing first. The fact that it is oral doesnt mean that it should be subjected to regular review otherwise, the integrity will be tampered with. Was it not human beings who composed the existing ese ifa? Just like the Bible verses, yes
 

 

I also suspect that the memorization of ese ifa might be unnecessary, even for  a babalawo.I suspect,as some scholars in modern African philosophy have argued,that memorization, being a device used largely bcs of the absence of writing,has both its strengths and weaknesses. One of these weakness is that valuable effort is made in committing information to memory and less in analyzing that information. I don't think they are not analytical. If you have spent all your life studying ifa, you will apply it to life situations the way people do the Bible. The fact that we crammed texts in school doesnt mean we cannot subject it to analysis when required to... Such limitations of analysis now means that such a system is liable to be stuck in repeating old ways of doing things because the essential value of a practice cannot be interpreted apart from its manner of expression.

I would hold that the babalawo,among other skills he or she cultivates,is a student of literature who is being trained,to some degree as a literary artist.If I might use the example of Jesus,who,like the creators of the ese ifa, was an oral  literary artist,a storyteller, who created stories to communicate his ideas.If he did not do that and relied only on old scriptures,he could not have communicated that message as effectively. I suppose this is different. Jesus could have created verses of Scripture cos he was a key player but none of the pastors who preach in his name today can do that. Babalawos, like pastors, can repeat ese ifa and Scritures but are not supposed to add to it! Otherwise, the human factor comes in and ruins everything. As it is his brilliant and but simple parables have become part of world literature.He used images derived from his very simple,pre-industri al society,such as images from sheep herding and other images that are universal across time,such as those  traveling,having a party etc. Now,can similar points not be made using other imagery? Is Lagos less a fitting setting for such stories than Galilee? The Ifa stories seem less local in imagery than some of Jesus stories but the general point  holds,I think. I agree but why do we need to 'upgrade' these books like some academic material

 

I heard some years ago that Wande Abimbola was working on creating an Ifa university with the aid of UNESCO.I hope such ideas are realized one day and that a critical examination and adaptation of Ifa is central to such initiatives. I wonder,though, if there is not a critical need to look again at to what degree the Western classroom teaching style would fit Ifa studies for aspiring babalawos.

The school has been built. I suppose it is the one called 'School of ifa studies' in Oyo town.

---

From: toyin adepoju <toyin.adepoju@ googlemail. com>

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[maxim...@yahoo.com]

The problem with Adepoju's extensive analyses is that he is still trying to measure an orange using an apple. His suppositions about Ifa and the standards he seems to be trying to create are actually absolutely inadequate. There are concepts in Ifa that will be totally lost (not because they are not there, but because eurocentric approaches will fail to identify them) when one uses these approaches. Thus, there is a need to begin understanding that the rules he is setting tend to dismember and remove the dynamics and life forces that go beyond, and are not measured with anatomical, "structure based" concepts and thought processes.

 

All these "big" english words mean only what they can, in the english cosmos. Outside of that, they are mere fiction - so much sound and fury, meaning nothing.

 

And that is the underlying problem with eurocentric training of which we are all guilty.

To be true to real knowledge, we must shorn ourselves of the supposition that what we know is adequate for everything or that the process we have learnt will be adequate for knowledge in everything. For example, after some of us studied anatomy and physiology according to the european, and with all the technology developed to "show" these things, we still have not been able, with those knowledge accessing approaches, to know about the anatomy and dynamics of accupuncture.

 

Sometimes, the musicians are right when they say the more you look, the less you see. Especially when you wear a colored sunshade and don't even know it.

 

Ire o.

 

O.E.

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From: toyin adepoju <toyin....@googlemail.com>

To: NaijaP...@yahoogroups.com; WoleSoyinkaSociety <WoleSoyin...@yahoogroups.com>; usaafricadialogue <USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>; Edo-nationality <edo-nat...@yahoogroups.com>; Nidoa <ni...@yahoogroups.com>; nigerianworldforum <NIgerianW...@yahoogroups.com>; Yoruba Affairs <yoruba...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: afis <odide...@yahoo.com>; Odua <omo...@yahoogroups.com>; Bato...@aol.com
Sent: Thu, April 8, 2010 12:18:53 PM
Subject: [NIgerianWorldForum] Re: [NaijaPolitics] Re: Odu Ifa Ose Meji

 

C. Now to Pius critique.

 

1. What is spiritual technology? A spiritual technology is a procedure for relating with what is understood as spirit within a particular world view. Spirit can be described in relation to the Orisa tradition's concept of ase, which can be described as a cosmic force that enables being and becoming. This definition is a philosophically oriented restatement of the concept of ase in the standard literature, such as the work of Pemberton, Babatunde Lawal and Rowland Abiodun, among others.

The concept of technology here is derived from Frances Stewart Technology and Underdevelopment where she describes technology in terms of process and product. She expounds on this in an essay:

Technology consists of knowledge about how to do and make useful things. It is not just matter of the hardware of the system-knowledge related to machines and processes; it also includes the associated software-administra tion and infrastructure, management, banking, and education, for example. The technology defines what is made, or the nature and characteristics of goods and services, as well as how they are made (Technology and Underdevelopment, Development Policy Review,Volume A10 Issue 1, Pages 92 – 105.

 

Wikipedia presents complementary perspectives on technology:

 

Technology is the usage and knowledge of tools, techniques, and crafts, or is systems or methods of organization, or is a material product (such as clothing) of these things. Technology can be most broadly defined as the entities, both material and immaterial, created by the application of mental and physical effort in order to achieve some value.  In this usage, technology refers to tools and machines that may be used to solve real-world problems. It is a far-reaching term that may include simple tools, such as a crowbar or wooden spoon, or more complex machines, such as a space station or particle accelerator. Tools and machines need not be material; virtual technology, such as computer software and business methods, fall under this definition of technology.

 

More recently, scholars have borrowed from European philosophers of "technique" to extend the meaning of technology to various forms of instrumental reason, as in Foucault's work on technologies of the self.

Technologies of the self (also called care of the self or practices of the self) are what Michel Foucault calls the methods and techniques ("tools") through which human beings constitute themselves. Foucault argued that we as subjects are perpetually engaged in processes whereby we define and produce our own ethical self-understanding. According to Foucault, technologies of the self are the forms of knowledge and strategies that “permit individuals to effect by their own means or with the help of others a certain number of operations on their own bodies and souls, thoughts, conduct, and way of being, so as to transform themselves in order to attain a certain state of happiness, purity, wisdom, perfection, or immortality.”

 

Ursula Franklin is best known for her writings on the political and social effects of technology. For her, technology is much more than machines, gadgets or electronic transmitters. It is a comprehensive system that includes methods, procedures, organization, "and most of all, a mindset".

 

 

So when the babalawo-Ifa priest- divines or engages in any procedure meant to relate human and non-human words as in divining or to create a herbal preparation, they can be said to be employing particular forms of technology, according to these  defintions. The concept of a spiritual technology is also used in Teresa Washington’s “Nickels in the Nation Sack:  Continuity in Africana Spiritual Technologies” (The Journal of Pan African Studies, vol.3, no.5, March 2010).

 

2. I stated ""Most of the ese Ifa in Abimbola's books for example,do not have the poetic intensity and linguistic sophistication of the Biblical psalms, for example." Their kind of strength is different.

 

I am still studying the subject though and realise that a careful reading of the Yoruba originals will be vital in such comparisons, particularly since I can hardly read Yoruba although i can not read the original Biblical languages either.

 Pius is correct, though, to observe a contradiction between my seeming downgrading of Ifa literature in relation to the Biblical Psalms and my valoristic analysis of the ese ifa dealing with the vicissitudes of the squirrel. I think that contradiction might result from my effort to understand the distinctive character of the literary qualities of the varieties of ese ifa I have come across, leading me to state as an opinion what should properly be stated as a hypothesis. That hypothesis remains relevant and I am responding to it in the light of the qualification I made to my comment on differences between ese ifa and the Biblical Psalms in which I stated that the Psalms demonstrate a poetic density and linguistic sophistication not evident in ese ifa but that the literary strength of ese ifa is of a different kind.

 In stating that their strength is different, I imply that the bible and the psalms derive their power from a sense of gravitas, a solemnity that derives from language and how the subjects are presented. To give a very general example let me use a psalm most of us know Psalm the “Lord is my Shepherd”. This poem proceeds in terms of characterisations of the human being as a sheep, led by the shepherd,God, in terms of imagery that constantly subordinates the human supplicant and poet to the divine master:

 How can the characterisation of the sacred  in the ese ifa I have given examples of be described? I will borrow a term from the nglo-Irish writer James Joyce:joco-serious- jocular and serious.

 Does Orunmila’s theft of the wife of Death mean he is not the same Orunmila in another poem in an  Abimbola essay who marries Iwaspele,GentleChar acter, suggesting the value of such traits of character in the Ifa world view? Of course not. Orummila operates in these poems not as the divine intelligence described as advising Olodumare at the creation of the universe, Elerin Ipin,Witness to Creation, The Little Man with a Head Full of Wisdom, but as a narrative frame, a literary device, an imaginative character. This does not mean the ifa priest will imitate the fictional  Orunmila by stealing  someone’s wife, not to talk of the wife of Death. Ifa priests  have their rules which preclude such behavious, which according to Ohomina, deals with adherence to spiritual law and its actions and reactions, and which, like natural law, are described as acting impersonally.

 How do we distinguish between such characterisations of Orunmila and others which present Orunmila in a positive light,as the one in in Abimbola’s  An Exposition of Ifa literary Corpus where  his disciples meet him in orun,the spirit world,nthe zone of origins, and he gives them the Ifa system. Is this  passing on of knowledge in orun necessarily to be understood literally. I would not think so. All theses questions need to be responded to in terms of  thorough study of Ifa hermeneutics, and like all literary forms, the Ifa priests  cannot have the last word on the literally or imaginative character of ese ifa because they constitute texts which they too are trying to understand.

 The jocoserious characterisations in these ese ifa are close to the spirit of Zen Buddhism, where the following expression characterises the relationship between the Zen practitioner and the founder of Buddhism, the Buddha, who died centuries before the development of Zen but whose ideas eventually led to Zen, among other Buddhist groups: “If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him!”.This suggests the need to divorce oneself from literal adherence to the teachings of the historical Buddha, in order to better recreate the essence of the founder’s teachings. Killing the Buddha implies the creative radicality  of Zen.

 3.Then you claim: "6.Ifa is literature. The Bible is literature. The Koran is literature." Yes, Toyin, but that is only half the truth. These are also belief systems and ways of life. They are faith. Literature is not belief and it is not a way of life. Literature is not faith. Nobody wakes up in the morning to pour libation to Things Fall Apart and Arrow of God. At best, you could go the way of Auerbach and call literature mimesis, it still doesn't elevate it to the level of faith. That is why your claim in no 6 is utterly reductionist and cannot stand.

 Please see the following from my last post:

 The major difference between Ifa,Charles Dickens and Arthur Miller,whom you [Afis]mention is that Ifa literature is directed at serving  an overtly sacred purpose as part of a spiritual technology while the others are overtly secular.But that purpose in Ifa is partly served through literary devices similar to those of Dickens and Miller.

 Religious writings are both deliberately literary and religious. Note that the lines between the two in terms of faith can be blurred. The Matrix was first a philosophical work of art but it has also inspired a religion, for example. The relationship between religion and literature has long recognised in scholarship as demonstrated works like The Literary Guide to the Bible by Alter and Kermode, among other works in mainstream scholarship.

 Its also true that purportedly secular works cn also demonstrate sacred significance on account of the convergence between their content and the sacred. Since you have studied   French literature you might want to look at the Symbolists, as the work of Rimbaud and Baudelaire and even the Absurdist work of Samuel Beckett in Waiting for Godot. The sacred in Rimbaud and Beckett is different from that in conventional spirituality, but its evokes the sense of human yearning for that which is beyond the mundane.

 4."The fact that interaction between diviners and squirrels is not a conventional part of human reality"

 My broda, what do you mean here? Hunting for okere and other eran igbe is a conventional part of human reality anywhere in Yoruba land and how does this exclude diviners? Or do you think that a diviner roaming the forest for "ewe" (leaves) would close his eyes to any careless "okere" (squirrel)? He is likely to thank ifa for that added gift. The remainder of your post is spent doing a literary appreciation of ifa - is it still poetically inferior to psalms at this point?

 These comments of yours shows that you might not have read my comments on this point carefully. I quote from my last post:

 The fact that interaction between diviners and squirrels is not a conventional part of human reality, if at all, makes this personification of the squirrel, making it a figure that can talk and be spoken to, a literary device and the poem where this appears literary.

 A good part of what is in ese ifa is fictive because it is not meant to be taken literally.Do SQUIRRELS TALK WITH BABALAWO,[an addition for clarity here-DO BABALAWO TALK] with Chicken Egg ( Eji Ogbe b),Menstrual Flow ( Iwori Meji b) Cock( Okanran Meji b) Ojontarigi,the wife of Death (Ogunda Meji a) Lion (Ogunda Meji b)-all examples from Wande Abimbola,Ifa Divination Poetry,with the particular odu in which the example appears in brackets. Its being fictive and imaginative does not mean it is deceptive. It communicates an idea that is not literally, directly presented. One understands, for example, the folly of the squirrel's actions even though it is practically untrue that such an incident ever took place. That is a quality of literature,what Biodun Jeyifo calls the "truthful lie".

 I believe the point is clearer now. Its not about a babalawo interacting with okere –squirrel- in the bush-it is about a babalawo engaging in dialogue with, divining for okere,with Chicken Egg, Lion and even with a form that is both a material form and a process-Menstrual Flow.!

 Do diviners talk with, engage in dialogue with, cast divination for,in order to provide a service to these forms of nature?!

 toyin

On 5 April 2010 19:05, Pius Adesanmi <piusadesanmi@ yahoo.com> wrote:

Toyin:   This is a quick one. Egbon Afis has nothing to explain until you clear up all the confusion you wove into your post below. First, what is "spiritual technology" tori oloun? Then you serve us this curious statement:   "Most of the ese Ifa in Abimbola's books for example,do not have the poetic intensity and linguistic sophistication of the Biblical psalms, for example."   Really? Toyin? Helloooo!!!! Since you assume the mantle of a literary critic here, the least you could do is give us examples from the psalms to back up this your theory of superior "poetic intensity" and "linguistic sophistication". Toyin, give us two verses, one from ifa and one from the Book of psalms. Do a conventional poetic appreciation of both and lets see if your assertion stands scrutiny. You can't get away with making this sort of claim without backing it up. Then you claim: "6.Ifa is literature. The Bible is literature. The Koran is literature." Yes, Toyin, but that is only half the truth. These are also belief systems and ways of life. They are faith. Literature is not belief and it is not a way of life. Literature is not faith. Nobody wakes up in the morning to pour libation to Things Fall Apart andn Arrow of God. At best, you could go the way of Auerbach and call literature mimesis, it still doesn't elevate it to the level of faith. That is why your claim in no 6 is utterly reductionist and cannot stand.   After postulating ese ifa's inferiority to the psalms in terms of poetic intensity, you proceed to heap literay praise on it even while misreading the ese you cite from Abimbola. You write:   "The fact that interaction between diviners and squirrels is not a conventional part of human reality"   My broda, what do you mean here? Hunting for okere and other eran igbe is a conventional part of human reality anywhere in Yoruba land and how does this exclude diviners? Or do you think that a diviner roaming the forest for "ewe" (leaves) would close his eyes to any careless "okere" (squirrel)? He is likely to thank ifa for that added gift. The remainder of your post is spent doing a literary appreciation of ifa - is it still poetically inferior to psalms at this point?   All the literary devices and figures of speech in your cited ifa verse you then proceed to read literally as evidence of ifa's exclusive fictionality. That's a completely flawed discursive procedure and it has led you to the false questions you are asking Egbon Afis to answer. When your father summons you for a father-son talk and says: "at a certain age, a child is expected to own a hoe and cutlass. Son, we are waiting. Don't be the exception to this rule". He could very well stop the conversation here. If you thank him and promise to do his bidding, do you then go and buy a hoe and a cutlass or you go and propose marriage to your fiancee? Does the fact that he did not mention marriage reduce all he told you to literature and fiction?

Pius ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ==== "A fun won l'aso sokoto lo fo won" - Kollington Ayinla

--- On Mon, 5/4/10, toyin adepoju <toyin.adepoju@ googlemail. com> wrote:

From: toyin adepoju <toyin.adepoju@ googlemail. com>

Subject: [NaijaPolitics] Re: Odu Ifa Ose Meji

To: "afis" <odidere2001@ yahoo.com> Cc: naijapolitics@ yahoogroups. com, "Odua" <omoodua@yahoogroups .com>, Batokkinc@aol. com

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[toyin adepoju]

RESPONSE TO OBAFEMI ORIGUNWA'S CONTRIBUTION AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS MAIL 

B.Your point about the divine origin of Ifa can also be related to Obafemi Origunwa's  rich and impressively stated assertions:

Each ritual language is a logic unto itself and with it comes its corresponding method. So as Yoruba grammar is best understood in Yoruba linguistic terms so is our epistemology (theory of knowledge formation) best understood according to Yoruba indigenous knowledge systems. Ese Ifa is the living word of Olodumare. Its not literature. Its not a formula. It is a living principle of creation and in the same way that even an accomplished doctor cannot simply dream up a new operation or medicine, a lawyer cannot just invent a law, a babalawo cannot just have a dream and invent an ese ifa. Likewise, we approach the mysteries as living entities to whom responsible elders introduce us and facilitate our relationships. The point is

that they are alive.

1. His points about understanding Yoruba epistemology in terms of Yoruba indigenous knowledge systems is a most vital point and one of the signal achievements of the development of modern studies in Yoruba visual art,as in the work Rowland Abiodun,Babatunde Lawal, Farris Thompson and others, along with scholars in Nigeria of which my acquaintance is more limited than the ones I have mentioned because it seems their works are more prominent. A lot of work still needs to be done in this field and the work of Pierrer Verger in Ewe:The Uses of Plants in Yoruba Society is a vital contribution here since it indicates principles of classification of c expected outcomes and the materials and plants and their methods of use for producing those outcomes, including incantations and odu ifa,to which the incantations are often related. He also provides a fascinating discussion of the significance of ase in terms of oral verbalisation as a method of teaching along with other vital points. I expect there other works in this field one will find if one searches.

There is much to gain from meditating on the content and spirit of Obafemi’s rich summations. His statement about endogenous-integral to a context-epistemology is also vital to the point made by maxima175(see text of contributions to the debate) about developing African technologies in scientific terms, and will help us to point out the challenges and implications of such an aspiration, which it seems Maxima is not adequately sensitive to. For now, though, I respond to Pius below about relationships between literature and scripture, which is the point being made by Obafemi about ese ifa being the living word of Olodumare.

 First, I note that the texts are created by human beings, meaning that describing them as the word of Olodumare is either an act of faith, of speculation or of a form of knowledge not available to most humans and which, therefore, cannot be adequately evaluated by people who want to assess the validity of the claim of the divine origin or validity of Ifa.. Even if we admit that Olodumare inspired the ese ifa,is this inspiration not mediated by the dispositions of those who communicate the divine inspiration? After all the Bible shows that the Biblical writer of the Old Testament claims that the Jews were commanded by the creator of the universe to steal other people’s lands and commit genocide against them, because God had promised the land to them. Any human being who showed such values would be considered a demon but the Bible says God did it.

 It is also true that the practice of Ifa is significantly patriarchal in Nigeria and the more prominent women who have become Ifa priests have been from outside Nigeria. I wait to be challenged on this, if at all. Do Olodumare and Orunmila  not recognise women too? Why is Ifa priesthood  mostly if not entirely an all male  affair in spite of the prominence  of the female personality of Odu in Ifa,being the wife of Ifa who is central to the wisdom and power of Ifa?

2. Its not literature. Its not a formula.

All scriptures, I know, ,African, Asian and Western are works of imaginative literature. I gave an example of the ese ifa in which  Ifa  divines for a   squirrel. A work in which something that does not happen in actuality- a squirrel being divined for and the squirrel talking with human beings- is shown as taking place  to make a point, is an imaginative work, and, as a piece of verbal expression, it is therefore a work of literature. Diviners do not talk to and cast  Ifa for squirrels, therefore that ese ifa and many more which present fictive scenarios  are works of literature because such imaginative, and at times fictional accounts of reality are central techniques of literature. I have stated that they are different from secular literature because they are directed towards an overtly sacred or magical purpose, as the case may be, unlike secular literature, which might also have a sacred or magical value, but which are not generally understood  in that sacred or magical  context or not in terms of  that context as being indispensable to their significance. Maxima tries to debunk my claim that ese ifa  are often dramatisations of fictive scenarios,  depicting scenes that never took place and which are not meant to be taken literally as fact. Maxima claims that ese ifa use metaphor not fiction. An ese ifa as in the example I gave, a poem that consist wholly of an account of discussions between a diviner and a squirrel, and between the squirrel and human beings is more a work of fiction than simply a metaphor. A metaphor is style of expression in which the main idea being referred is referred to indirectly through another referent. In that sense, the story of the squirrel is metaphorical for the dangers of talking too much. It goes beyond metaphor into full blown fiction, however, on account of the length of the metaphorical elaboration in the story of the encounter between the squirrel, the diviner and the people who ate the squirrel’s children. The same goes for many Ifa narratives, including those dealing with Olodumare, the  Orisa or deities. In fact, it is likely to be true that most ese ifa are works of fiction, and deliberately so. In that sense, they would be closer to the fictive parables of Jesus and the parables of the Islamic poet Rumi, than to the purported historical sections of the Bible. Fiction is one form of religious writing and Yoruba sacred literature is a delightful example of that. The delightful challenge for the audience challenge is trying to understand the metaphorical meaning being evoked by these fictions. This fictive quality and the quality of whimsy, of playfulness, they oftem demonstrate, more in keeping with Zen Buddhist parabolic narrative and the short stories of Rumi, than to the gravitas of the Bible, suggest, to me, suggest a creative flexibility of  world view by the artists who created the ese ifa, as well as a sense of not taking themselves too seriously, thereby creating a situation that enables the world view to remain alive and flexible and adaptable. In that sense, it is different from the unwavering gravitas of the Bible and the insistence on doctrinal conformity in monotheistic traditions. I suspect that this suggests the Orisa tradition is based more on engagement and practice than on doctrine. I will give more examples of ese ifa,some of which show a delightful irreverence towards the Orisa or deities, that buttress this point, in my response to Pius below.

 Also, Ifa literature, as I have seen it so far, is at times formulaic. That means that it is written according to a pattern that is  repeated in various ese ifa. This pattern is evident in similarities between various ese ifa in the opening structure, body and  conclusion. I have seen this particularly in the short poems in Abimbola’s  works but I expect other patterns in other ese ifa, even though this expectation is speculative. These  formulaic forms  are  easy to remember and use as means of recognising particular human issues and challenges prescriptions for addressing them in the divinatory context, or even as a form of reflection on human issues outside such a context.

  Even if they are inspired by Olodumare,this inspiration can be expressed through a formula. Inspiration and  human creativity can converge. But I want to note that the existence of Olodumare, Orisa and other spiritual  entities are not self evident and are acts of faith, speculation or forms of knowledge not generally available to most people. So they can not be presented as conclusive arguments, although such  ideas are vital to explaining a world view and an epistemology.

3.It is a living principle of creation and in the same way that even an accomplished doctor cannot simply dream up a new operation or medicine, a lawyer cannot just invent a law, a babalawo cannot just have a dream and invent an ese fa. .

If Ifa is a living principle of creation, is the training of the Ifa priest not to enable him enter into relationship with his living principle? If that is so why can he not create  new ese ifa under the inspiration of this living principle? Its important to distinguish between inspiration in religion and canon formation. There are works that were not out in the Bible while others were left out, for example. There exist works today which to me are superior to   what is in the Bible, certainly superior to the genocidal sections of the Bioble in which Yahweh is described as commanding the Jews to wipe out an entire people and all their livestock. But they are not in the Bible. Those who decided on the Biblical canon and the religious authorities closed the door to any further additions. At the same time, however, various sub groups in various religions have their own  revered writings, which approach the status of scripture that stand alongside the majors scriptures, even, if, as with Judaism and Islam, they don’t replace the central scriptures. Examples of those are the stories of Nahman of Bratslav in the Jewish Hasidic sect,a number of Kabbalistic works in Judaism, of which the Zohar is prominent, the poetry of Milarepa in Tibetan Buddhism and the poetry  of  Rumi in Islam, and perhaps the Islamic works of Al Arabi. In Judaism and Islam, such texts are not the  he level of the closed scriptures of the Torah ,the Talmud and the Koran but the picture seems different in Hinduism and Buddhism, which are not monotheistic religions, and  which seem to recognise the validity of the accretion of a variety of scriptural texts  across time, even up till the present, understood as a continuity from the Vedas, the earliest Hindu scriptures and in Buddhism, from the inspiration, if not the literal words of the Biddha.

The point being made by here by Obafemi   is more forceful  in relation to the examples from medicine and law, which derive from  different social and epistemic contexts  than  that assumed by Bimbola’s  assertion of ese ifa as " a living principle of creation" and  "the living word of Olodumare." The significance of the examples for the more intellectually based professions of medicine and law is centred on the value of consensus in making new laws, new medications and new surgical  procedures. Of course, lawyers contribute new laws, politicians sponsor bills that are  passed into law, doctors and pharmacists create new medications and new surgical  procedures. Of course, these innovations have  to be passed through specific processes before they are accepted by their peers. It is not the same as scriptural canons like the Koran and  the Bible that are not added to after they have been fixed. I would hold, though, that I cant see why new ese ifa can not be created with the understanding that older ese ifa  were created across a period  of time by individuals responding to personal and social developments and other bababalwo deciding whether or not to learn and use the new ese ifa created by one babalawo or another. A  useful model here   is that that of the ritual chalk  graphic art of Olokun Bini  priests  which vary and are unique according to each priest although formed according to a standard symbolic visual  morphology.

  It would be helpful to know when the idea that eses ifa are not created by ordinary human being such as babalawo, but instead are divine creations   became  so visible .

 4. a babalawo cannot just have a dream and invent an ese fa.

Why not? The English astrologer/scholar Geoffrey Cornelius describes dreams as the earliest from of divination. People have reported seeing the future in dreams. Dreams are the point of interaction between human and non human forms of being in various epistemologies. L. E. Roache In “Psychological Aspects of Edan Ogboni”( African Arts, Vol. 4, No. 2 (Winter, 1971), pp. 48-53+80) describes how the spirit of the edan ogboni interacts with its owner through dreams. People describe interaction with ancestors and departed parents in dremas. Sussane Wenger described a dream encounter with symbols  that led to her work at Osun Osogbo. The French philosopher Rene Descartes describes three symbolic   dreams as central to his discovering his calling in life, leading to his achievement as the founder of modern Western philosophy. The chemist Friedrich  Kekule describes two dreams  as central to his pioneering work in organic chemistry, climaxing in the second dream which enabled him synthesise his previous research  leading to his  discovery of  the chemical structure of the benzene ring. Interestingly this dream involves a snake, a recurring image in the design of opon ifa, the ifa divination tray, evocative of Osumare,the cosmic serpent who holds the world together, perhaps a cosmic presence that enables cosmic unity which it  represents by the coiling of its body in a circle around the world, and in relation to the snake motif ascribed by Mazisi Kunene to classical Zulu thought in his introduction to Anthem of the Decades,

In dreams the conscious mind is at rest and the subconscious and other aspects of the self are free. People fly in dreams and even at time engage in lucid dreaming, in which they dream while knowing that they dreaming. Benin Olokun priests place their symbols by the side of the bed so that Olokun can communicate  them while dreaming. In fact, using dreams as a doorway to knowledge is a discipline that everyone needs to learn. People can be particularly creative through dreaming.

 5. we approach the mysteries as living entities.

The idea of ese ifa in terms of mystery is vital because of their conception as manifestations of or  as related to spiritual entities. This conception implies that even though ese ifa are works of verbal expression, they derive from odu, which,to put it in my own way,are children or expressions of Odu, the wife of Ifa, who as Igba Odu, is the calabash of existence, the ground and totality of being  from whom flows the wisdom of Ifa. Mystery here therefore represents a recognition of aspects of being that are not easily available to ratiocinative  or sense based knowledge or knowledge derived from emotions  and are therefore esoteric, meaning, in this sense ,that they  have to accessed through the development of faculties of knowledge not available to the person not exposed to them through a specialised training. This training is described as  not being part of the general epistemic resources available  through convetional education.

If this is the point Bimbola is making I would argue that I suspect that the Yoruba epistemology he speaks of through which Yoruba indigenous knowledge systems can be appreciated might not be as esoteric, as hidden, as unavailable to non practitioners of the traditional system  as they   might seem. I would hold that enough knowledge might be available in the public domain about the Yoruba and Orisa traditions and other mutually illuminating systems for an adequately informed person to gain access to these aspects of existence, perhaps involving spiritual entities, without being trained in the traditional sense. How could this be possible? Because, first, you need access to information from practitioners, which you can get if you interact with them, and secondly through published texts, to the ideas, descriptions and characterisations  associated with the odu. The description of Odu suggests that it refers to a particular characterisation of the ground of being, the source of existence, understood in terms of the procreative capacities associated with female biology and the spiritual associations linked to that in classical Yoruba and Orisa thought.

Relating to the various odu can be understood as relating with expressions of this ground of being. The Bini Ifa priest Jospeh Ohomina describes the odu as “spirits whose origin we do not know. We understand only a small fraction of their significance”, even though, according to him, “they are behind the efficacy of everything we[babalawo] prepare”.

If spirits exist, I think what one needs first is a description of a spirit’s  characteristics. These   constitute its expression and  one’s  primary mental link to it. These characteristics can be expressed in visual form, which might be anthropomorphic, animalistic, elemental  or abstract, as the use of geometric forms, or even all these and more simultaneously to indicate various possibilities of expression and further evoke  one’s engagement with various aspects of existence, and possibly suggest the unity of being which is experienced by human beings as a continuum  of relationships within and between the concrete, physical world and the  abstract world of the mind. You then have a range of choices of how to get in touch with the spirit, from various types of invocation, which may include visualisation, meditation, chanting of sounds associated with the spirit, such as its name, dancing, drumming, various forms of ritual, to using plants, or a combination of these. The information on Odu can be correlated from various sources, and methods exist in various books of how to invoke spirits. Practice then follows.

7.to whom responsible elders introduce us and facilitate our relationships. The point is that they are alive.

I have read  that there are Ifa priests in orun, the spirit world. Can they be encouraged to communicate with us? All those babalawo who have passed over, will they insist that we belong to a school in the material world before they will teach us? If Olodumare and Orunmila exist,will they not agree to inspire a sincere, dedicated and dogged aspirant? I think the issue here is not so much access to spirit, in which my experience is summed up by these sayings from the Galilean teacher: “The spirit bloweth where it listeth...the harvest is plenteous but the labourers are few..” . The more challenging question is about not reinventing the wheel, moving more smoothly over terrain already crossed by others with the help of those who have done it before while they  facilitate  your knowledge of the rules so you dont burn your fingers. Noting that however, what in Western esotericism  is known as the solitary path is for those who want to do things on their own  and face the consequences. I think one can make significant progress in Ifa through self training as well as attain a degree of initiation. Spirit might be best understood as  ubiquitous  and mobile. Perhaps its engament with Ifa  is best described as  not confined to traditional Ifa teachers and practices.

I am indebted for the development of this  idea  the English occultist Dion Fortune as she presents a similar  opinion, in the context of Weatern esoericism, in  Applied Magic and Sane Occultism in relation to working with   esoteric systems. It is reotrnced by the perspectives of the Ifa priest Joseph Ohomina and the Orisa devotee, Susanne Wenger, although they might not identify fully with my position.

 toyin

On 5 April 2010 20:49, Obafemi Origunwa <obaf...@yahoo.com> wrote: