Fwd: Bro Toyin, You Need Schooling On Yoruba: Odu Ifa Ose Meji [ A DEBATE ON IFA, AN AFRICANA SYSTEM OF KNOWLEDGE ]

[toyin adepoju]

"The discussion began with my argument on the need to expand or even modify ese ifa. I am more than capable of responding fully to all the challenges raised in the course of this discussion and will do so one by one.I will respond in sequence to all the questions raised,up till the last point on ese ifa."  By Toyin Adepoju.       My comment: Dear Toyin, when you get to "the last point on "ese Ifa", please call me. Stop running around the cyber-marketplace, no one will chase you.   By the way, I like your poem on Ifa's "Okere", very revealing, and a butress of my argument that you are a Romanticist on Ifa olokun. You did a good job, and I'll not knock you on it.    However, the "poem" you wrote is just a poem, that has been my contention, and it remains my point. If you dare to use it in religious terms it won't work.  Toyin, you're a voyager in a dark room, tripping and stumbling can't be part of the success, but can lead to success. Your Ifa rendition is beautifully done and I commend you on that.   So, call me when you reach "ese Ifa". And do away with the "insults". You're an asset to Yoruba Way, no one is here to fight with you, our job is that of "curtailment".     ____*****Toyin, you made some very costly snafu in your Romanticise Ifa poem, and I'll not waste my time pointing all of them out, but here is one:    "Okere thanked the babalawo and went home." ........in a REAL spiritual incantation, this statement will not end as such, and is "blasphemous".  The one who goes to "awo" (Okere) will not "thank Babalawo", and will not leave to go home until "Okere" hears the "awo's response".  This is where Toyin gets lost in "translation", you can't distinguish between the word "thank" as in "dupe", and "yin" as in "praise".    You don't "thank awo", you "praise" as in "offering words of homage as an act of worship":   "Okere yin awo", and in conclusion, before the Okere leaves,  "awo yin Ifa" or "yin Orunmila", the "awo" will "praise" Ifa in return. In every "ese Ifa" the conclusion is "praise" not "thank", and it goes from the visitor to "awo" and from "awo" to "Orunmila".   That is part of your failings as you try to walk through the darkness, still a student of Ifa, but without humility and proudly carrying the Esu fire on your head like the sacrificial cock. As an "ogberi", Toyin could never understand how it goes.   Toyin the above is essential to every rendered verse in Ifa. As important as "Alif, Lam, Mim", which is called "Muqatta'at" in Arabia's al-Qur'an.  In Surat Baqarat, one cannot omit "Alif, Lam, Mim" and jump into "zalikal kitab laraiba fihi....." .  Without the "alif, lam, mim", that Sura remains incomplete. It becomes a blasphemy as I have stated.   My point: Toyin, even when you are making up your own verses, and attempting to falsify history, you must do it the right way, not that I agree Ifa verses should be ammended or added.  Shikena. afis --- On Mon, 9/13/10, toyin adepoju <toyin....@googlemail.com> wrote: From: toyin adepoju <toyin....@googlemail.com> Subject: Re: [Naijaintellects] Re: [NaijaObserver] Re: [NaijaPolitics] Re: Bro Toyin, You Need Schooling On Yoruba: Odu Ifa Ose Meji To: NaijaO...@yahoogroups.com Cc: it...@mail.ccs-africa.co.za, naijain...@googlegroups.com, odide...@yahoo.com, laioye...@yahoo.com, NaijaP...@yahoogroups.com, TalkN...@yahoogroups.com, "Odua" <omo...@yahoogroups.com>, "Bobson Arigbe" <BAR...@dhs.nyc.gov>, "Kwabena Akurang-Parry" <KAP...@ship.edu>, "Ola Kassim" <OlaKa...@aol.com>, "Adeniran Adeboye" <aade...@mac.com>, "Akinbode Akinola" <aakin...@yahoo.com>, "Abraham Madu" <abraha...@yahoo.com>, "Adebayo Adejuwon" <adead...@yahoo.com>, "Adeniba Adepoyigi" <adenibaa...@yahoo.com.au>, "Bimbola Adelakun" <adunn...@yahoo.com>, "Mobolaji Aluko" <alu...@gmail.com>, "Tony Agbali" <atta...@yahoo.com>, "Emmanuel Babatunde" <babemm...@gmail.com>, "Rufus Orindare" <bato...@att.net>, "Cornelius Hamelberg" <cornelius...@gmail.com>, "Gloria (History) Emeagwali" <emea...@mail.ccsu.edu>, "Olu Ojedokun" <employ...@aol.com>, "Ede Amatorisero" <esul...@hotmail.com>, "Farooq Kperogi" <farooq...@gmail.com>, "Ibukunolu Babajide" <i...@usa.net>, "Joe Igietseme" <jb...@cdc.gov>, "Kay Odunaro" <kayod...@yahoo.ie>, "Kennedy Emetulu" <keme...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Nnanna Agomoh" <mnag...@yahoo.com>, "Oderaigbo" <odera...@yahoo.ca>, "Omo Oba" <olad...@ix.netcom.com>, "Iyalaje Fama" <owonri...@hotamil.com>, "Pius Adesanmi" <piusad...@yahoo.com>, "Dominic Ogbonna" <summ...@gmail.com>, "Dele Olawole" <theo...@africaservice.com>, "Tina Iyare" <tina...@yahoo.com>, "Joe Attueyi" <topc...@yahoo.com>, "Tunji Alapini" <tunjia...@yahoo.com>, "Amauche Ude" <udeam...@yahoo.com>, "Vincent Modebelu" <vin_mo...@yahoo.com>, "Wharf Snake" <wharf...@yahoo.com>, "Chris Odetunde" <yemi...@aol.com> Date: Monday, September 13, 2010, 11:02 PM When oil is spilled in water,it becomes difficult to discern where water ends and oil begins. This is the kind of muddying and confusion of debate that afis wants to achieve. In the course of this debate,afis and his fellow ethnic jingoists, along with the misguided Tony Agbali, have challenged me on a number of issues.They demanded I respond to those new issues they have raised.Now afis is insisting he wants me  to address only the original issue that began the debate.Clearly he is trying to dodge  something.He does not want to respond to the challenge I issued about his shallow knowledge of Esu, a central figure in Orisa cosmology.  The discussion began with my argument on the need to expand or even modify ese ifa. I am more than capable of responding fully to all the challenges raised in the course of this discussion and will do so one by one.I will respond in sequence to all the questions raised,up till the last point on ese ifa.  Meanwhile afis and his fellow uninformed people, resistant to learning,will not be allowed to escape from the responsibility to prove the points they have tried to make against me. afis ridiculed my description of an invocation of Esu,claiming that it  shows my ignorance of Yoruba language and spirituality because no one invokes Esu since Esu is purely destructive. I argue,to the contrary, that Esu is essentially understood as a creative force that manifests in various ways,of which what might look like destructiveness is one of them.That,in fact,Esu is messenger between humans and orisa,as well as a central figure in Ifa divination. Based on afis last response,I  establish the following 1.You,afis, have FAILED to respond to my central question on Esu-if Esu is understood as purely destructive as you claim,why does he play a central role in Ifa,as demonstrated,for example by his representation  in opon ifa,Ifa divination trays,where his face is carved  face upward ,facing the babalawo as he divines? You responded: "By the way, you are only partially correct about "opon Ifa"...you are now ascribing behavior and particularity of certain parts to all others. I say unequivocally that what symbol or design adorning the "opon Ifa" depends on the parts of Yorubaland that the Ifa priest comes from.  The old Yoruba Kingdoms habored several dialects that have their own versions of how to appease their deities, though there were similarities.  However, even with the similarities their ways of worship and the importance of the deities in their lives varied. Esu may not be as important in Ede town, while Ile-Ife may find Esu as next to Orumila.  Yeye Osun may be the most revered in Osogbo, and Esu laalu may be relegated to the background.  I've seen different symbols on "opon Ifa", in different towns and villages. In fact, the Olu-awo-s in the Awori sub-Yoruba-group don't have "opon Ifa" with Esu's face on them. Their symbols are quiet different" Has anything you have written invalidated my position? No. You have in fact done two things: You have supported and reinforced my position. Any deviation from my position expressed by you is at best a refinement of my  position. The problem here is that you might realise your error but in your ethnic bigotry,in your determination to assert the superiority of your understanding of native Yoruba identity,you are not willing to admit it. With your loud "cyber lips" you earlier stated that  a person making an  invocation to Esu amounts to placing a ""CURSE" on himself, telling Esu laalu to pursue him until his life is snuffed out of him". With the same loud and self contradictory cyber lips you turn round and tell us the opposite,forgetting that I am keeping watch of every word and will pounce on your dishonest effort to escape the trap you have created for yourself. You now write: "...Ile-Ife may find Esu as next to Orumila." Wow. Are you referring to Orunmila,the orisa of wisdom,Eleri Ipin,the Witness to Creation,the one whom the Ifa oracle is based on,who people go to for guidance all over Yorubaland and the diaspora? You are now telling us that this venerable and wise figure is  placed in association, in very close association, with Esu,  a figure you describe as wholly destructive? Do you want to tell us that placing "Esu next to Orunmila" as you state does not mean close association in activity and importance? Or do you mean their physical symbols being placed  next to each other on a shelf?  Or on a shrine? Of course not. All along you have been trying to describe  various levels of importance of Esu in parts of Yorubaland. You are telling us therefore,that in Ille-Ife,the place where the Yoruba creation myth says the world began ,Esu and Orunmila might be seen as working hand in hand. You thereby assert that both the figure you describe as wholly destructive  and the orisa of wisdom are seen as  working intimately  together in parts of  Yorubaland. Most interesting. afis Odidere,please tell us how what you have written above can be reconciled with your earlier comment that  a person invoking Esu is tantamount to placing a "CURSE" on himself, telling Esu laalu to pursue him until his life is snuffed out of him". From your "fecund yet uncluttered mind" as described by Laiye Oduntan after you dug yourself deeper into the trap Esu led you into  on my behalf,please explain this contradiction. You must not run away from this .You must prove that you are not  " fecund" in contradiction.That you are not cluttered in disorganized understanding of that Yoruba civilization you like to crow about. Do you now agree you have reinforced my position that Esu is not understood wholly in destructive terms  but as demonstrating   different aspects to his character? Even if we give credence to your argument about various levels of importance of Esu in Yorubaland,it does not invalidate my  argument that Esu is not seen only in destructive terms in the Orisa tradition.It reinforces  and refines my argument. I wish I could remember an ese ifa that will sum up this situation into which you have allowed yourself to be trapped in.No problem.I can invent one.Here it is:                                                                                                  Ose'Tura                                                                                                                                                                                                         I          I                                                                                                                                                                                                          II         II                                                                                                                                                                 &a mp;n bsp;                                     I          I                                                                                                                                                                 &am p;nb sp;                                     I          I The water in the sky and the water on the earth are the same,but different. The  Babalawo (Ifa priest) of the Heart consulted Ifa on behalf of Okere(the squirrel). The Odu(divinatory pattern) that emerged was Ose'Tura (which may be understood as the Odu of Esu,embodiment of the X factor,the unanticipated,among other qualities) "Okere",said the babalawo "You shall be going on a journey soon. On this journey, When you want to fetch a nut for food,be careful which nuts you choose. Choose only nuts that you can carry home easily. Dont take any nut too heavy for you. If you see that any particular nut is too heavy, drop it,so you can get home. Give to Ifa a sacrifice of a kola nut, representing the wisdom to know when to change your actions,sprinkled with palm oil to smoothen  the workings of your mind so you are not held down by stubborn pride". Okere thanked the babalawo and went home. When he told his wife about what the babalawo told him His wife pooh poohed the babalawo's warning. "Are you not General Okere,of the fecund and uncluttered mind? Who has ever known you to bite off more than you chew? Are you not Jaguna,whose name is spoken of in whispers among the rugged hill climbers in Abeokuta,the Place Below the Rock?" So Okere did not sacrifice and he allowed the breeze of time to wash away from his mind the warnings of the babalawo. One day,Okere went on a journey, as the babalawo had predicted. On his way back,Okere decided  to carry some nuts home to his wife. He found one,found,two,found three. He carried them all. He found the fourth one but he had problems carrying all four beceause the fourth one was too big. He struggled to accomodate the fourth nut and kept struggling till night fell. The next morning found him still struggling with the nut. Night met him there in the same predicament. He could not bring himself to abandon the fourth nut beceause he found it so attractive. His pride refused to let him release the nut. Okere might still be back there struggling with the fourth nut. Secondly,even though I have no evidence to the contrary,I would like you to prove this assertion by you: "In fact, the Olu-awo-s in the Awori sub-Yoruba-group don't have "opon Ifa" with Esu's face on them." This could exist,but I doubt if they are the norm.I would like to see pictures,anyway. I challenge you to provide evidence to that effect,in the form of photographs.Meanwhile,I post here images of opon ifa,in different designs,from two different parts of Yorubaland,all with the face of Esu on them.                                                              Opon Ifa from Ijebu                                                               Opon Ifa from Oyo Images from The Yoruba Artist ed.Roland Abiodun et al and Yoruba:Nine Centuries of African Art and Thought ed.Henry John Drewal et al  Thirdly,this point you make is elementary: "I say unequivocally that what symbol or design adorning the "opon Ifa" depends on the parts of Yorubaland that the Ifa priest comes from".   You again,for once when you get it right,state a basic fact as if you are saying something wonderful. There is a broad range of designs for opon ifa.Within these possiblities,there are variable and invariable elements of design.The invariable elements,which often do not change,are the empty centre,where the divinatory instruments are cast and the face of Esu. The other elements are variable. I also see this statement as false in relation to my argument that Esu always features as a creative agent working with Orunmila,the orisa of wisdom: "you are now ascribing behavior and particularity of certain parts to all others". Ifa,within and beyond Nigeria,has reached a level of standardisation that implies that certain features achieve uniformity everywhere.The relationship between Esu and Orunmila is one of those. Can you prove that the intimate relationship  between Esu and Orunmila   is not universal throughout Yorubaland and the diapora as of the present moment? If you want to invoke an rgument from the historical devlopemnt of Ifa,sugesting that this might not alwys have been so I am interested in examining your evidence but even then it does not invalidate my point beceause I have always been referring to the present moment in history.I dont expect you to be able to even prove that it was not always  so ,any way.I dont expect you can becaeuse of the difficulty of tracing the historical  development of Yoruba spirituality and because of your limited understanding of the value of scholarship, mot to talk of its skills. as evidence in your scorn of scholarship    I expect that as you scheme on how to dig yourself out of this self created trap,you might begin to appreciate that you need to look sharp when I speak of brother Esu. You are entering into a realm that is new to you. Rather than spend time beating my chest and engaging in rhetoric like you,even though you are really saying nothing new,I leave you with this expression,particularly relevant since you and your ethnic champions  like to throw their Yoruba knowledge about. Bi owe,bi owe, lan lulu agidigbo. Like a proverb,like a proverb,is the war drum beaten. I am ready to debate till the end of the world ALL the issues raised .I will not ALLOW   ANY of the issues raised to escape analysis.If for any reason you choose not to explain your contradiction on Esu I will declare to everyone that you are trying to escape,thereby  declaring your mistake or/and   ignorance.Then I will go on to examine critically the other points  in this debate.By which time,the world will see you and your supporters for what you are. Thanks Toyin On 13 September 2010 13:39, afis <odide...@yahoo.com> wrote: Thanks. We're trying to learn from the brother Toyin, while he refuses to learn from anyone. And that's portraying him in bad light in a public forum...... Romanticism on Ifa is very very good and a blessing for Yoruba, and we can applaud Toyin on that, that's why we read Icarius and company from Greek mythology. But that is not religious or spiritual, just literature leaning on fantasy, sort of Yoruba-sufism..... The brother must realize it or we will force-feed him.... Hahahahahahhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Shikena, afis From: laioye...@yahoo.com Date: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:50 am Subject: Re: [OmoOdua] Re: [Naijaintellects] Re: [NaijaObserver] Re: [NaijaPolitics] Re: Bro Toyin, You Need Schooling On Yoruba: Odu Ifa Ose Meji laioye...@yahoo.com Send Message Edit Membership Bro Afis, I applaud a fecund yet uncluttered mind. This exchange is more beneficial than the usual distractions. Oodua yo gbe yin o. Amin. Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN --- On Mon, 9/13/10, afis <odide...@yahoo.com> wrote: From: afis <odide...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Naijaintellects] Re: [NaijaObserver] Re: [NaijaPolitics] Re: Bro Toyin, You Need Schooling On Yoruba: Odu Ifa Ose Meji To: it...@mail.ccs-africa.co.za, naijain...@googlegroups.com, odide...@yahoo.com, naijao...@yahoogroups.com Cc: NaijaP...@yahoogroups.com, naijain...@googlegroups.com, TalkN...@yahoogroups.com, "Odua" <omo...@yahoogroups.com>, "Bobson Arigbe" <BAR...@dhs.nyc.gov>, "Kwabena Akurang-Parry" <KAP...@ship.edu>, "Ola Kassim" <OlaKa...@aol.com>, "Adeniran Adeboye" <aade...@mac.com>, "Akinbode Akinola" <aakin...@yahoo.com>, "Abraham Madu" <abraha...@yahoo.com>, "Adebayo Adejuwon" <adead...@yahoo.com>, "Adeniba Adepoyigi" <adenibaa...@yahoo.com.au>, "Bimbola Adelakun" <adunn...@yahoo.com>, "Mobolaji Aluko" <alu...@gmail.com>, "Tony Agbali" <atta...@yahoo.com>, "Emmanuel Babatunde" <babemm...@gmail.com>, "Rufus Orindare" <bato...@att.net>, "Cornelius Hamelberg" <cornelius...@gmail.com>, "Gloria (History) Emeagwali" <emea...@mail.ccsu.edu>, "Olu Ojedokun" <employ...@aol.com>, "Ede Amatorisero" <esul...@hotmail.com>, "Farooq Kperogi" <farooq...@gmail.com>, "Ibukunolu Babajide" <i...@usa.net>, "Joe Igietseme" <jb...@cdc.gov>, "Kay Odunaro" <kayod...@yahoo.ie>, "Kennedy Emetulu" <keme...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Nnanna Agomoh" <mnag...@yahoo.com>, "Oderaigbo" <odera...@yahoo.ca>, "Omo Oba" <olad...@ix.netcom.com>, "Iyalaje Fama" <owonri...@hotamil.com>, "Pius Adesanmi" <piusad...@yahoo.com>, "Dominic Ogbonna" <summ...@gmail.com>, "Dele Olawole" <theo...@africaservice.com>, "Tina Iyare" <tina...@yahoo.com>, "Joe Attueyi" <topc...@yahoo.com>, "Tunji Alapini" <tunjia...@yahoo.com>, "Amauche Ude" <udeam...@yahoo.com>, "Vincent Modebelu" <vin_mo...@yahoo.com>, "Wharf Snake" <wharf...@yahoo.com>, "Chris Odetunde" <yemi...@aol.com> Date: Monday, September 13, 2010, 7:44 AM Toyin Adepoju, your yansh dey show again oooo. By calling Esu laalu your "big brother" it shows you're still that part of the belief that sees Ifa in the form of Romanticism.  There's nothing wrong in that, your choice. But religiously, no Yoruba man will refer to Esu laalu as "my brother Esu". That's where the Yoruba-sufism comes into play. There's nothing "trendy" about religious belief.  It's rigidity is non-negotiable.     First, I told you initially why Yoruba people who are knowledgeable on Ifa refuse to address you or respond to you. They find you unfocused, full of inanity, and too self absorbed in your importance, and too opinionated on mundane stuff to be taken seriously.   Second, the initial "thread" revolves around Ifa and what Toyin Adepoju sees as the next positive step in order for Ifa to evolve and grow, ie. "creating more verses in ese Ifa".  You should tell us why, instead of running around with these words: "I am still busy but will start addressing you chaps in more detail  later today." Toyin Adepoju. Whenever you're cornered, the above becomes "famous last words", like Sarah Palin's "I'll get back to you on that". And when next you show your cyber-face, Toyin, you rush into something else entirely.    Before your first "picking race event", we pointed out to you that amending or extending the Ifa verses is "blasphemous", and it is sacrilegeous and an affront to Orunmila baba Ifa, the habinger of all that is True.   So, Toyin, how did we arrive at "opon Ifa"?  And if "Triple A" should respond to that now, you will run without accepting defeat, you'll move away and start another thread on "Gelede" or "Igunnu ko".   These are my words when I joined issues with you:  Toyin, you're searching for an Afis that would start running after you in a marketplace. (s'agba di were) You're not focused, Toyin.   By the way, you are only partially correct about "opon Ifa" as you stated and I quote: "If you dont know what opon ifa is,or have not seen one before,or are not aware of the features of its design,such as the face of Esu that always appears there,please tell us,or if you disagree with me about Esu's face always present on opon ifa..." Toyin Adepoju.     Toyin read my cyber-lips, you're not familiar with Yoruba nation, and you read books written by some people from some parts of Yorubaland, and you are now ascribing behavior and particularity of certain parts to all others. I say unequivocally that what symbol or design adorning the "opon Ifa" depends on the parts of Yorubaland that the Ifa priest comes from.  The old Yoruba Kingdoms habored several dialects that have their own versions of how to appease their deities, though there were similarities.  However, even with the similarities their ways of worship and the importance of the deities in their lives varied. Esu may not be as important in Ede town, while Ile-Ife may find Esu as next to Orumila.  Yeye Osun may be the most revered in Osogbo, and Esu laalu may be relegated to the background.  I've seen different symbols on "opon Ifa", in different towns and villages. In fact, the Olu-awo-s in the Awori sub-Yoruba-group don't have "opon Ifa" with Esu's face on them. Their symbols are quiet different. Again, you see why no one is interested in responding to you? Most people who know more than Afis are just laughing you off as an "alawada", a joker, or a clown.    I'll not digress with you again, Toyin.  I'm only interested in why Ifa should have its verses amended, added, or new ones created. Shikena. afis --- On Mon, 9/13/10, toyin adepoju <toyin....@googlemail.com> wrote: From: toyin adepoju <toyin....@googlemail.com> Subject: [Naijaintellects] Re: [NaijaObserver] Re: [NaijaPolitics] Re: Bro Toyin, You Need Schooling On Yoruba: Odu Ifa Ose Meji To: it...@mail.ccs-africa.co.za Cc: NaijaP...@yahoogroups.com, "afis" <odide...@yahoo.com>, naijain...@googlegroups.com, TalkN...@yahoogroups.com, "Odua" <omo...@yahoogroups.com>, "Bobson Arigbe" <BAR...@dhs.nyc.gov>, "Kwabena Akurang-Parry" <KAP...@ship.edu>, "Ola Kassim" <OlaKa...@aol.com>, "Adeniran Adeboye" <aade...@mac.com>, "Akinbode Akinola" <aakin...@yahoo.com>, "Abraham Madu" <abraha...@yahoo.com>, "Adebayo Adejuwon" <adead...@yahoo.com>, "Adeniba Adepoyigi" <adenibaa...@yahoo.com.au>, "Bimbola Adelakun" <adunn...@yahoo.com>, "Mobolaji Aluko" <alu...@gmail.com>, "Tony Agbali" <atta...@yahoo.com>, "Emmanuel Babatunde" <babemm...@gmail.com>, "Rufus Orindare" <bato...@att.net>, "Cornelius Hamelberg" <cornelius...@gmail.com>, "Gloria (History) Emeagwali" <emea...@mail.ccsu.edu>, "Olu Ojedokun" <employ...@aol.com>, "Ede Amatorisero" <esul...@hotmail.com>, "Farooq Kperogi" <farooq...@gmail.com>, "Ibukunolu Babajide" <i...@usa.net>, "Joe Igietseme" <jb...@cdc.gov>, "Kay Odunaro" <kayod...@yahoo.ie>, "Kennedy Emetulu" <keme...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Nnanna Agomoh" <mnag...@yahoo.com>, "Oderaigbo" <odera...@yahoo.ca>, "Omo Oba" <olad...@ix.netcom.com>, "Iyalaje Fama" <owonri...@hotamil.com>, "Pius Adesanmi" <piusad...@yahoo.com>, "Dominic Ogbonna" <summ...@gmail.com>, "Dele Olawole" <theo...@africaservice.com>, "Tina Iyare" <tina...@yahoo.com>, "Joe Attueyi" <topc...@yahoo.com>, "Tunji Alapini" <tunjia...@yahoo.com>, "Amauche Ude" <udeam...@yahoo.com>, "Vincent Modebelu" <vin_mo...@yahoo.com>, "Wharf Snake" <wharf...@yahoo.com>, "Chris Odetunde" <yemi...@aol.com> Date: Monday, September 13, 2010, 4:01 AM Triple A, You are yet to answer the questions I asked about the logic of your claim that inviting Esu into your life is a negative action while Esu is a POSITIVE figure in Yoruba/Orisa cosmology. All you have done is repeat your so called cultural knowledge. Knowledge that is half baked,to put it generously. You need to address the fact that Esu is a POSITIVE FIGURE in Yoruba cosmology as demonstrated by his central role in Ifa. I described Esu's  role in opon ifa.You seem not to even smell the significance of that example. If you dont know what opon ifa is,or have not seen one before,or are not aware of the features of its design,such as the face of Esu that always appears there,please tell us,or if you disagree with me about Esu's face always present on opon ifa,please say so clearly. Please,please,please,ANSWER the question of why a figure you see as wholly negative is so significant in Ifa.If you disagree with my assertion of that significance, please say so clearly and tell us why.If you have no idea of the role of Esu in Ifa please tell us that clearly. This posturing on the basis of limited cultural knowledge is not moving our discussion forward. Just because I mentioned that my Yoruba needs to grow you guys want to harp on that to the exclusion of serious analysis.I am beginning to conclude that my knowledge of relevant Yoruba philosophical concepts is much sharper than that of some of you native speakers because you have not taken pains to study these concepts,relying purely on general,street knowledge. You have invoked one way of referring to Esu and erect that as the totality of Esu representations-you quote an example of what I call folk spirituality- 'Esu ma se mi, omo elomi ni ko`se.' translatable as 'Esu dont cause trouble for me.Please cause trouble for another person's child,not me',where the expression 'se' in that conmtext indicates action,in this case,negative action.This is based on the limited interpretation of brother Esu,our good friend,as a person who causes trouble,creates unexpected wahala through his trickery.It may also be related to the idea that some people invoke the unpredictable gentleman  to attack their enemies. *Why is this chap Esu also seen in other contexts as messenger between humans and orisa?* Please try and answer that question.If you are not aware of that aspect of Esu please tell us now.If you dispute it also tell us. I am beginning to get the impression that you cant even hear what I am saying beceause your level of exposure to your cultural background never exposed you to more than a very limited range of  knowledge of Esu. I suspect you chaps have neither read the relevant literature nor gone to do first hand study with babalawo.At least this discussion is helping to make that clear so that we know that we need to start from the very basics where I could  share with you my study in these two areas as well as with practical exploration of the Orisa tradition. I await other responses,hopefully better informed.If these do not emerge and clearly point out to the whole world the limitationsof this sad attempt at denigration of my brother Esu,then I will have to settle down to educate you chaps on Ifa 101. For those who think that a discussion of Esu is purely a Yoruba or Orisa religion issue I will also explain why my good brother Esu is a universal presence all over the world. thanks Toyin On 12 September 2010 18:18, Triple A <a3_tr...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > > Bro Prof Toyin Adepoju, > > I appreciate all the stuff you have read but the point Alhaji Afis made is > very important. Maybe you missed it because you don't understand Yoruba > language. Nobody says 'Esu wa se mi'. In fact, the oriki is 'Esu ma se mi, > omo elomi ni ko`se.' > > 'Esu ma se mi' is what Yorubas call "Olori adura' > > No matter the positive attributes of Esu, nobody invites him into his/her > life. If you understand Yoruba very well, you will understand that what you > said carries a very huge negative connotation that translates to a huge > curse on yourself. There is no justification for you, with all the books you > have read, to try and 'positiveise' the claim. > > Try and be humble. Akosikun is very different from akosile. If you really > have interest in Ifa and Yoruba cosmology, look beyond the textbooks. There > are more than enough people on these fora to sort you out. Books can be > wrong too. > Imagine you writing a book now and putting 'Esu wa se mi' in the books as > something positive. > Somebody will pick the book, read it and think this is what a scholar has > said and it should be right. > > Bro Prof Toyin, you are wrong about Esu. Be humble enough to accept. > > > >  ------------------------------ > *From:* toyin adepoju <toyin....@googlemail.com> > *To:* afis <odide...@yahoo.com> > *Cc:* it...@mail.ccs-africa.co.za; naijain...@googlegroups.com; > naijao...@yahoogroups.com; TalkN...@yahoogroups.com; Odua < > omo...@yahoogroups.com>; naijap...@yahoogroups.com; Bobson Arigbe < > BAR...@dhs.nyc.gov>; Kwabena Akurang-Parry <KAP...@ship.edu>; Ola Kassim > <OlaKa...@aol.com>; Adeniran Adeboye <aade...@mac.com>; Akinbode > Akinola <aakin...@yahoo.com>; Abraham Madu <abraha...@yahoo.com>; > Adebayo Adejuwon <adead...@yahoo.com>; Adeniba Adepoyigi < > adenibaa...@yahoo.com.au>; Bimbola Adelakun <adunn...@yahoo.com>; > Mobolaji Aluko <alu...@gmail.com>; Tony Agbali <atta...@yahoo.com>; > Emmanuel Babatunde <babemm...@gmail.com>; Rufus Orindare < > bato...@att.net>; Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>; > Gloria (History) Emeagwali <emea...@mail.ccsu.edu>; Olu Ojedokun < > employ...@aol.com>; Ede Amatorisero <esul...@hotmail.com>; Farooq > Kperogi <farooq...@gmail.com>; Ibukunolu Babajide <i...@usa.net>; Joe > Igietseme <jb...@cdc.gov>; Kay Odunaro <kayod...@yahoo.ie>; Kennedy > Emetulu <keme...@yahoo.co.uk>; Nnanna Agomoh <mnag...@yahoo.com>; > Oderaigbo <odera...@yahoo.ca>; Omo Oba <olad...@ix.netcom.com>; Iyalaje > Fama <owonri...@hotamil.com>; Pius Adesanmi <piusad...@yahoo.com>; > Dominic Ogbonna <summ...@gmail.com>; Dele Olawole < > theo...@africaservice.com>; Tina Iyare <tina...@yahoo.com>; Joe > Attueyi <topc...@yahoo.com>; Tunji Alapini <tunjia...@yahoo.com>; > Amauche Ude <udeam...@yahoo.com>; Vincent Modebelu < > vin_mo...@yahoo.com>; Wharf Snake <wharf...@yahoo.com>; Chris > Odetunde <yemi...@aol.com> > *Sent:* Sun, 12 September, 2010 17:32:28 > *Subject:* [NaijaPolitics] Re: Bro Toyin, You Need Schooling On Yoruba: > Odu Ifa Ose Meji > > > > > afis, > > Not surprisingly,even though I had some hopes to the contrary,you are not > able to respond to the questions I asked about Esu's spiritual roles as a > central figure in Orisa spirituality,roles that contradict your short > sighted perception,derived from shallow folk spirituality,and perhaps from > shallow adherents from other religions,of Esu as as wholly identified with > destruction and possibly evil,as represented by your summation of the > implication of an invocation of Esu as putting a *"CURSE" on himself, > telling Esu laalu to pursue him until his life is snuffed out of him".* > > You are operating in the same mindset that equates Esu,a pivot on which >  Ifa divination turns,a pivot in the Orisa cosmos,the companion > and executive agent of the babalawo ( according to babalawo Joseph Ohomina) > with evil=Devil. > > And you jump up and down here beating your chest over what you claim to > know. > > Your vaunted "Yorubaness" is clearly not enough  to enlighten you about one > of the most profound conceptions in Yoruba/Orisa spirituality and philosophy > which you reduce to the sad summation I quoted above. > >  Clearly everything I wrote has sailed over your head. > > I suggest you read up on Esu in Bolaji Idowu's   *Olodumare:God in Yoruba > Belief*. > > When you finish the section on Esu there I can suggest other books for you > to read. > > I also suggest you improve your conceptual range by broadening your > reading.Since Yoruba spirituality is a primary interest of yours,Soyinka > could prove helpful.The poem at the conclusion of the *Credo of Being and > Nothingness* is simple and profound,one of the best of Soyinka poems and > of exposition of the Orisa cosmos known to me.Only seven stanzas. > > You also seem to have an Islamic background.Rather than be less than > reverential about Sufism,Islamic mysticism, as you seem to have been,reading > that too could help you.You might want to see the poetry and philosophy of > Ibn Arabi.A simple but profound introduction to Arabi like *The Ultimate > Mercifier* might be helpful. > > You also might want to read Quranic exegesis.Interpretations of > Al-Fatihah,the Opening of the Quran,as well as of Sura al'Nur on Allah as > light,could also be helpful. > > You also have a sensitivity to  ideas about the magical power of > language,as represented by your insistence on ese ifa as incantations.You > seem to be insensitive,however,to the value of conceptual and > formalistic-music,imagery etc- analysis in relation to such forms.You could > benefit from scholarly literature on Yoruba religious poetry.A helpful > writer is the great work of Karen Barber,the writer of the only book on > oriki known to me *I Could Speak(Sing?) Until Tomorrow*.You may see her > book on oriki as well as her essay"How Man Makes God in West Africa".I can > post it here if you want. > > For you to be credible,you need to answer the questions I asked on Esu,not > repeat the same song you keep singing. > > Do you think we are in your village or beer parlour where a few comic moves > will release you from the responsibility of grappling with > the cognitive issues we are dealing with ? > > As I asserted, a good number of my critics on this fora have little > grounding in the Orisa tradition they claim to espouse. > > Now,afis,to make the question clearer and put it in a manner that is likely > to be clearer to you and to others who might be confused by the concepts > invoked to explain the power of the crossroads where earth and the world of > origins meet,where spirit and matter intersect- > > at the top of the opon ifa,the divination tray often used in Ifa > divination,there is invariably an image of Esu,facing up at the babalawo or > Iyanifa (I need clarification on these gender distinctions). > > Why is this so? Is this to suggest avoiding trouble from Esu,is it > to symbolise Esu's centrality as guide to interpreting Ifa's messages,to > symbolise Esu as carrier of messages between various realms of being,between > the human and the spirit worlds,between humans and orisa? > > Is Esu's image in Ifa reducible to  this negative depiction  of yours which > describes an Esu invocation as :putting  "*a "CURSE" on himself, telling > Esu laalu to pursue him until his life is snuffed out of him".?* > * > * > *I await your response.* > * > * > *I hope it will be a thoughtful one that addresses my charge of > a contradiction in your position on the place of Esu in relation to Ifa > metaphysics,epistemology,literature  and ritual.* > > If you are unfamiliar with this invariable feature of an opon ifa that > privileges the image of Esu,let me know so I can post a number of different > images of opon ifa here to help the discussion.I will do it within 10 mins > of reading your request for such clarification. > > Anybody who is better informed than you here,and who yet opposes my > perspective  and wants to help you, should at least have the grace to > recognise that the perception of Esu you have presented is a shallow one,the > kind represented by depictions of Esu as evil which no serious student of > the tradition will give credit to,  as you have so sadly done. > > The possible invocation of Esu in destructive magic,for example, requires a > more sophisticated presentation and analysis than you have > presented,beceause the many faced one,both sage adult > and mischievous child,both male and female,trickster and guide > to illumination, demonstrates various faces. > > It would have been a deeper discussion to investigate why that is so,but > your determination to dismiss my presentation of a fundamental insight in > relation to  an obvious reality of Orisa thought and practice means we can't > do that yet,if at all. > > I hope the Valentine Ojos and Iyalaje Famas whose best response to this >  serious debate is to descend to the culture of insults, will realise that > this discussion,whatever its limitations,is not operating at such base > levels. > > Thanks, > Toyin > > On 12 September 2010 13:18, afis <odide...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>   *Toyin,* >> *keep up your charade, it ain't selling.* >> ** >> *you're now sounding like an American comedian of old, Jerry Lewis, a >> slap-stick king who's always falling and tripping on chairs and tables >> knocking down TV and all in sight.  * >> *When he finally finds himself "rescued" either by God's grace or his >> co-comedian, in his very puny but funny voice Jerry Lewis will quip "I >> mean't to do that".* >> ** >> *Here we've a major faux pas from our mighty Professor Toyin Adepoju, and >> the best rambling and scrambling he could come up with (minus clogged up >> Turenchi with lesser meaning?), and the best crap he could come up with is >> "I mean't to do that".* >> ** >> *The problem is:  Your explanation fails to enlighten us on why an >> African will set out to put a "CURSE" on himself, telling Esu laalu to >> pursue him until his life is snuffed out of him. * >> *Methinks it's a  "faux pas",  just like your "Oyigiyigi" >> mis-translation.** * >> *Shikena.* >> *afis* >> >> >> --- On *Sun, 9/12/10, toyin adepoju <toyin....@googlemail.com>*wrote: >> >> >> From: toyin adepoju <toyin....@googlemail.com> >> Subject: Re: Bro Toyin, You Need Schooling On Yoruba: Odu Ifa Ose Meji >> To: "afis" <odide...@yahoo.com> >> Cc: it...@mail.ccs-africa.co.za, naijain...@googlegroups.com, >> naijao...@yahoogroups.com, TalkN...@yahoogroups.com, "Odua" < >> omo...@yahoogroups.com>, naijap...@yahoogroups.com, "Bobson Arigbe" >> <BAR...@dhs.nyc.gov>, "Kwabena Akurang-Parry" <KAP...@ship.edu>, "Ola >> Kassim" <OlaKa...@aol.com>, "Adeniran Adeboye" <aade...@mac.com>, >> "Akinbode Akinola" <aakin...@yahoo.com>, "Abraham Madu" < >> abraha...@yahoo.com>, "Adebayo Adejuwon" <adead...@yahoo.com>, >> "Adeniba Adepoyigi" <adenibaa...@yahoo.com.au>, "Bimbola Adelakun" < >> adunn...@yahoo.com>, "Mobolaji Aluko" <alu...@gmail.com>, "Tony >> Agbali" <atta...@yahoo.com>, "Emmanuel Babatunde" < >> babemm...@gmail.com>, "Rufus Orindare" <bato...@att.net>, "Cornelius >> Hamelberg" <cornelius...@gmail.com>, "Gloria (History) Emeagwali" < >> emea...@mail.ccsu.edu>, "Olu Ojedokun" <employ...@aol.com>, "Ede >> Amatorisero" <esul...@hotmail.com>, "Farooq Kperogi" < >> farooq...@gmail.com>, "Ibukunolu Babajide" <i...@usa.net>, "Joe >> Igietseme" <jb...@cdc.gov>, "Kay Odunaro" <kayod...@yahoo.ie>, "Kennedy >> Emetulu" <keme...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Nnanna Agomoh" <mnag...@yahoo.com>, >> "Oderaigbo" <odera...@yahoo.ca>, "Omo Oba" <olad...@ix.netcom.com>, >> "Iyalaje Fama" <owonri...@hotamil.com>, "Pius Adesanmi" < >> piusad...@yahoo.com>, "Dominic Ogbonna" <summ...@gmail.com>, "Dele >> Olawole" <theo...@africaservice.com>, "Tina Iyare" <tina...@yahoo.com>, >> "Joe Attueyi" <topc...@yahoo.com>, "Tunji Alapini" < >> tunjia...@yahoo.com>, "Amauche Ude" <udeam...@yahoo.com>, "Vincent >> Modebelu" <vin_mo...@yahoo.com>, "Wharf Snake" <wharf...@yahoo.com>, >> "Chris Odetunde" <yemi...@aol.com> >> Date: Sunday, September 12, 2010, 12:42 AM >> >> afis, >> >> I know very well the common version of the Esu oriki I presented.That >> common version you quoted. >> >> I deliberately chose to change it. >> >> If you had read or understood my own oriki Esu which preceded the chant >> you think I wrote without understanding its implications,an oriki I >> developed by adapting descriptions of Esu from different sources,including >> yourself,merging them with  my own  understanding of the concept, ,you could >> have grasped  the import of the subsequent chant you are dismissive about. >> >> As it is,you either did not read it,or did not understand >> it,perhaps because you are unused to the images and concepts used,even >> though they are images and concepts drawn from the scope >> of characterisations of Esu,from his manifestation in the classical >> Orisa tradition,to his appearance as Papa Legba in Vodun. >> >> Now,not only did I write that chant,I was inspired by you and your group >> leading yourselves into my hands to offer myself to,to  attune myself with >> the understanding of and hopefully to relate intimately with,to move >> towards incarnating the master of the crossroads,the enabler >> of unanticipated opportunities,using the sublime Vodun veve-graphic symbol- >> for Legba,who,in essence,is identical with Esu. >> >> Why should you ask Esu not to involve himself in your life while the >> bababalwo is described as opening  the  divinatory process  by inviting >> the androgynic one to open the way for communication between realms of >> being?Why ask the teacher who unravels the knots of understanding of >> the roads of Ifa to leave you alone when you need him as guide >> to understanding the labyrinths of possibility demonstrated by your life,a >> life that actualises the multifarious possibilities dramatised by the >> 256 hermeneutic zones of Odu,he empowered by the ase of Olodumare? >> >> Why not free yourself from fear of change enabled by the embodiment of the >> unexpected,he who opens paths into any of the sixteen roads that converge at >> the centre of of the womb of being represented by the conjunction of aye and >> orun embodied by your life, symbolised by the macrocosmic meaning of opon >> ifa,as ori and ori inu enter into dialogue with Odu? >> >> Should you not aspire to share in the transcendence of space and >> time-"throwing a stone today and hitting a bird yesterday"- >> the transcendence of the limitations of biology-"sitting on the skin of an >> ant"-  dwelling  in the space between dimensions- " finding the house too >> small but the groundnut shell just right"-the appreciation of >> transformations between right and wrong- "turning wrong into right and right >> into wrong"embodied in the oriki I quoted of the messenger indispensable to >> those who understand him and cultivate his friendship,but enigmatic and >> dreaded by those who dont understand him as a necessity >> of creative existence? >> >> "Verily,I say,the world may be created anew,if you are ready"-adapted from >> Jorge Luis Borges >> "We must be still and still moving,into  another intensity,into a further >> union,a deeper communion"-from T.S.Eliot's *Four Quartets* >> >> >> It would have been so good to discuss relationships >> between theoretical and practical explorations  of >> Orisa spirituality, knowledge and practice but almost >> all respondents who claim knowledge on this subject,and all of them Yoruba, >>  are resting on the platform,and a weak one at that, of their ethnicity,are >> so eager to prove how little they think I know. >> >> >> The problem with you ethnic purists is that you seem locked into limited >> ways of understanding your own tradition,so communication with you is often >> less of a sharing of knowledge than a combat about who knows what,in the >> course of which it become challenging to go beyond basic ideas in the >> field,partly because you guys are not acquainted with the >> relevant literature,so you dont know what knowledge can be taken for granted >> and differences between established knowledge and innovation and how to move >> between these. >> >> >> Its like a class discussion with students who have not read their >> prescribed texts,either those written by me or by other scholars in the >> field.The students busy themselves with repeating information that has not >> benefited from a knowledge of investigations in the field. >> >> Its a pity I have to be this harsh but this has often been >> my experience with those who claim to champion Ifa and those who dismiss it >> on these fora. >> >> I am still busy but will start addressing you chaps in more detail  later >> today. >> >> Thanks >> Toyin >> >> On 12 September 2010 01:46, afis <odide...@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1115mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=odide...@yahoo.com> >> > wrote: >> >>   "Esu oooo Esu ooooo. >> onile onita ooooo >> jo yoju soro me....."  By Toyin Adepoju. >> >> >> >> *My comment: You see, Toyin my brother, your yansh dey show. * >> *No Yoruba man or woman alive will say the above.  * >> *Next time say:  Esuoooo, onile ORITA, JOWO MA yoju soro mi.."* >> *Translation: Esu ooo, one that resides at the crossroads, please do not >> have hands in my fortune or misfortune. * >> *What you wrote, my brother, was an inadvertently inviting Esu to bring >> you life disaster.* >> ** >> *Don't you worry my brother, I am into your business now, you're home >> with me. I'll help you reach your promised land, ie. become a Yoruba. >> Hahahahahahahaha.* >> *Shikena.* >> *afis* >> *PS: If you can't understand simple Yoruba words, how are you gonna >> survive in the midst of "Oyigiyigi Ogidi Ifa"? * >> >> >> --- On *Sat, 9/11/10, toyin adepoju <toyin....@googlemail.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=toyin....@googlemail.com> >> >* wrote: >> >> >> From: toyin adepoju <toyin....@googlemail.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=toyin....@googlemail.com> >> > >> Subject: Re: [Naijaintellects] RE: Odu Ifa Ose Meji >> To: "afis" <odide...@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=odide...@yahoo.com> >> > >> Cc: it...@mail.ccs-africa.co.za<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=it...@mail.ccs-africa.co.za>, >> naijain...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=naijain...@googlegroups.com>, >> naijao...@yahoogroups.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=naijao...@yahoogroups.com>, >> TalkN...@yahoogroups.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=TalkN...@yahoogroups.com>, >> "Odua" <omo...@yahoogroups.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=omo...@yahoogroups.com>>, >> naijap...@yahoogroups.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=naijap...@yahoogroups.com>, >> "Bobson Arigbe" <BAR...@dhs.nyc.gov<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BAR...@dhs.nyc.gov>>, >> "Kwabena Akurang-Parry" <KAP...@ship.edu<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=KAP...@ship.edu>>, >> "Ola Kassim" <OlaKa...@aol.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=OlaKa...@aol.com>>, >> "Adeniran Adeboye" <aade...@mac.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=aade...@mac.com>>, >> "Akinbode Akinola" <aakin...@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=aakin...@yahoo.com>>, >> "Abraham Madu" <abraha...@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=abraha...@yahoo.com>>, >> "Adebayo Adejuwon" <adead...@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=adead...@yahoo.com>>, >> "Adeniba Adepoyigi" <adenibaa...@yahoo.com.au<http://us.mc1115.mailyahoo.com/mc/compose?to=adenibaa...@yahoo.com.au>>, >> "Bimbola Adelakun" <adunn...@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=adunn...@yahoo.com>>, >> "Mobolaji Aluko" <alu...@gmail.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alu...@gmail.com>>, >> "Tony Agbali" <atta...@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=atta...@yahoo.com>>, >> "Emmanuel Babatunde" <babemm...@gmail.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoocom/mc/compose?to=babemm...@gmail.com>>, >> "Rufus Orindare" <bato...@att.net<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bato...@att.net>>, >> "Cornelius Hamelberg" <cornelius...@gmail.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cornelius...@gmail.com>>, >> "Gloria (History) Emeagwali" <emea...@mail.ccsu.edu<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=emea...@mail.ccsu.edu>>, >> "Olu Ojedokun" <employ...@aol.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=employ...@aol.com>>, >> "Ede Amatorisero" <esul...@hotmail.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=esul...@hotmail.com>>, >> "Farooq Kperogi" <farooq...@gmail.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=farooq...@gmail.com>>, >> "Ibukunolu Babajide" <i...@usa.net<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=i...@usa.net>>, >> "Joe Igietseme" <jb...@cdc.gov<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jb...@cdc.gov>>, >> "Kay Odunaro" <kayod...@yahoo.ie<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kayod...@yahoo.ie>>, >> "Kennedy Emetulu" <keme...@yahoo.co.uk<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keme...@yahoo.co.uk>>, >> "Nnanna Agomoh" <mnag...@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mnag...@yahoo.com>>, >> "Oderaigbo" <odera...@yahoo.ca<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=odera...@yahoo.ca>>, >> "Omo Oba" <olad...@ix.netcom.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=olad...@ix.netcom.com>>, >> "Iyalaje Fama" <owonri...@hotamil.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=owonri...@hotamil.com>>, >> "Pius Adesanmi" <piusad...@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=piusad...@yahoo.com>>, >> "Dominic Ogbonna" <summ...@gmail.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=summ...@gmail.com>>, >> "Dele Olawole" <theo...@africaservice.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=theo...@africaservice.com>>, >> "Tina Iyare" <tina...@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tina...@yahoo.com>>, >> "Joe Attueyi" <topc...@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=topc...@yahoo.com>>, >> "Tunji Alapini" <tunjia...@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tunjia...@yahoo.com>>, >> "Amauche Ude" <udeam...@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=udeam...@yahoo.com>>, >> "Vincent Modebelu" <vin_mo...@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vin_mo...@yahoo.com>>, >> "Wharf Snake" <wharf...@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wharf...@yahoo.com>>, >> "Chris Odetunde" <yemi...@aol.com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=yemi...@aol.com> >> > >> Date: Saturday, September 11, 2010, 8:14 AM >> >> Interesting. Delicious.But as a description of my perspectives, laughable. >> >> >> With your transparent  ignorance of my work,with Fama's embarrassment of >> herself by resorting to insults rather than demonstrating her >> "wonderful knowledge",with Marinus clear ignorance of everything I have been >> arguing about Ifa, with the fact that these assertions of ignorance of my >> work can be proven so easily,clearly, >> * >> * >> *"Esu laalu, onile orita agbontaigi" (afis),the master of >> the crossroads of possibility,the transformer of fortunes,the one who "turns >> right into wrong,wrong into right,who throws a stone today and hits a bird >> yesterday,who sits on the skin of an ant,who hits a stone until it >> bleeds,who finds the verandah and the house too small but is comfortable in >> a groundnut shell,who is so tall that his head is not visible above the >> path(Oriki Esu from Wande Abimbola,Sixteen Great Poems of Ifa quoted in Oral >> Poetry from Africa,ed.Mapanje and White) he that is both male and female,of >> the turgid penis and the elastic vulva ( Henry Luis Gates Jr,The Signifying >> Monkey),my brother whom those who do not know describe as creator of >> misfortune,not in  your true nature as enabler of >> unanticipated opportunity,wearer of the cap both black and red, one leg >> within aye,another in orun,Papa Legba,the quaternary axis of being and >> becoming,portal of vision and transformation,* >> * >> * >> *has put you and all these critics who clearly have not been reading my >> work or who dont want to acknowledge its value,or who don't  understand it >> or dont want to understand it,into my hands.* >> * >> * >> ***Could I have wished for something so advantageous? >> * >> >> Clearly I have been doing something right. >> >> I need to sing more of this song which I sing from time to time.Clearly my >> brother Esu deserves something for this unanticipated stroke of fortune: >> >> Esu oooo Esu ooooo >> >> onile onita ooooo >> >> jo yoju soro me..... >> >> >> Im still working to meet a deadline. I will get back soon to you guys and >> ladies who have been so obliging. >> >> thanks >> from your grateful friend Toyin >> >> >> On 11 September 2010 11:42, afis <odide...@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1115mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=odide...@yahoo.com> >> > wrote: >> >>        *"Ogberi tio ba da ifa nu, oun la ofi koo"........thanks to >> "alaremu".* >> ** >> *Hmmmmm.......like I have indicated in a prior there's "awo", and there's >> "ogberi".* >> *"ajoji" versus "omo onile"....* >> *"adia fun omo onile tio te jeje, ti ajoji nte wuruwuru".  * >> *Toyin is yet to understand what is "ogberi" and who's "omo awo".* >> ** >> * * >> *I think this should be an eye-opener to most Yoruba out there.* >> *Ifa never asked of anyone not to be him/herself.  * >> *You can be a Christian, a Muslim and still help to nurture your >> heritage. * >> *"Omo ale ni nfi owo osi juwe ile baba re".......* >> ** >> ** >> *If you are a Yoruba and you don't even care enough for your heritage, >> and you indulge in kicking away your "cultural inheritance", there comes a >> time that an "ogberi" like Toyin Adepoju would takeover your heritage, and >> "help" you a Yoruba to define your past or shape your future.* >> ** >> ** >> *I think our failures in keeping and protecting our "cultural >> inheritance" comes from our ignorance. * >> *We let the whiteman define our culture.* >> *They tell us what is "hearthen", * >> *...they explain to us why "Esu laalu, onile orita agbontaigi" is a devil >> incarnate, which is a lie. * >> *They tell us why worshiping of our God and deities are "idol >> worshiping",* >> *.....while they erect statues of their Saints and God, and kneel before >> these statues, and sprinkle water on followers while drinking blood of >> "Him".  * >> *...And the Arabs join in to "Munguni