Re: Oju orun to eiye fo lai fi iga gba iga! Help Translate FW: The sky is too vast for birds to fly without hitting each other
toyin adepoju
There is enough breadth in the face of the sky for birds to fly without their wings colliding
The sky is vast enough for birds to fly without hitting each other's wings
etc,etc
toyin
“Oju orun to eiye fo lai fi iga gba iga!”
What is the correct Yoruba Translation? Please the triggers below.
Matto
------ Original Message ------
Received: 10:02 PM EAT, 01/20/2011
From: toyin adepoju <toyin....@googlemail.com>
To: Omo...@yahoogroups.com, Subject: [Spam] Re: [OmoOdua] Re: [Spam] Re: The sky is too vast for birds to fly without hitting each other RE: “ABURO RE NKOLE IWO INJISO.”
The title of this thread
The sky is too vast for birds to fly without hitting each other
is a wrong translation of
Oju orun to eye fo lai fara gbara won
A correct translation is
The sky is big enough for birds to fly without hitting each other
The mistake in translating the Yoruba expression as
The sky is too vast for birds to fly without hitting each other
is that you create the opposite of the Yoruba expression,an opposite that is a contradiction in meaning. Vastness implies freedom of movement,but this translation brings together vastness and constriction of movement.
This mistake comes about beceause of the location of 'too' and 'without' in the erroneous translation which helps to create the statement that the birds hit each other when the Yoruba expression says they do not hit each other.
wrong translation
The sky is too vast for birds to fly without hitting each other
correct translations
1. 1. The face of the heavens affords sufficient space for birds to fly without hitting each other
1. 2. The sky is vast enough for birds to fly without touching each other
2. 3. The sky is so vast that birds can fly without hitting each other
3. 4. The sky is too vast for birds to fly and hit each other
[ [1-4: Toyin Adepoju]
1. 5. The sky is huge enough for birds to fly without touching wings
2. 6. The sky is enough for birds to fly without touching each other
[2 [5-6: Valentine Ojo]
th [thanks toyin
toyin
On 20 January 2011 16:23, afis <odide...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"You can keep your "DIRTY STINKING BITCH" and "FAT-ARSE UGLY SLOB"!
IBK, no need to play coy - if you want to join your friend, that ISALE EKO BASTARD, Afis Odidere, to ABUSE and INSULT me, please come out openly, and stop hiding-behind one finger!" By Chief Val Ojo, Da Abugije (Tree-Biter) of Cyber-spaces.
"So you have not noticed that even your buddy IBK has left you in your MADNESS and your OBSESSION with Dr.. Ojo...?" By Alaiperi Val Ojo, Da Abugije of Cyber-spaces.
"Dear Dr. Val Ojo,
When I think you are incapable of getting any worse, you plumb deeper into the depths of crassness. Tosin Mustapha is a daughter to you age-wise. So what is the justification for all these you wrote below? Look leave the young beautiful girl alone and act your age. She is a Princess and you keep saying hurtful things to her. You fight dirty with men, your mother in law, and now this young girl. Haba Baba agba(ya), ibi owo ni a nba arugbo ke. Haba elder! It is the place of honour that an elder resides.
Leave this lovely Princess alone. She is not here for you to insult. Whatever went in the past, let bygone be bygone!
Cheers." By LegalEagle IBK.
Afis conclusion: Val Ojo is a madman. It's obvious he cannot get better, and he's getting worse.
Maybe we should, like ET, phone home?
Maybe the Ondo-people may have good "agbo" that may cure Ojo's madness.
But I think it's too late, it's believed by the Yoruba peoples that once a madman like Val Ojo starts "barking at trees, biting trees and edging inch by mad-inch into the deepest part of the Iroko forests", Val Ojo is gone pass "fidigbi".
In this kind of situation, the only way to cure madman Val Ojo is to have all the women that have gone through "abiyamo", to come pee on his head.
Big Irony, the women he had abused and insulted?
Any volunteers?
Shikena.
afis
--- In niger...@yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Valentine Ojo" <valojo@...> wrote:
RE: The sky is too vast for birds to fly without hitting each other RE: “ABURO RE NKOLE IWO INJISO.â€
"So what is the justification for all these you wrote below?" - IBK
IBK:
If you cannot see the justification for what I wrote, then that is your problem.
So for you, IBK this is not enough justification:
"Your mother is a witch who was stoned in Ondo town and she gave birth to a bastard like you calling yourself a Yoruba meanwhile it was an Igbo tout who impregnsated your mother in Ondo so your family gave you away not to disgrace them ...Your daughters Omolayo Ojo and Omotayo Ojo are NOTORIOUS PROSTITUTES AND WELL KNOWN tramps."
Then IBK, I cannot help you!
You will allow some FAT UGLY BITCH to talk about YOUR MOTHER and YOUR DAUGHTERS like this (when you did nothing to her) - and let her go Scott free...?
Good for you then!
If the BITCH TOSIN MUSTAPHA is your idea of a "young beautiful girl" and a "lovely Princess", then your taste in women has more than "plumbed deeper into the depths of crassness"!
You have no taste in women! Period!
You can keep your "DIRTY STINKING BITCH" and "FAT-ARSE UGLY SLOB"!
IBK, no need to play coy - if you want to join your friend, that ISALE EKO BASTARD, Afis Odidere, to ABUSE and INSULT me, please come out openly, and stop hiding-behind one finger!
I am not done with that FAT UGLY BITCH yet - until she breaks down and cry!!!
Dr. Valentine Ojo
Tall Timbers, MDOn Wed 01/19/11 4:10 PM , "Ibukunolu Alao Babajide" ibk@... sent:
Dear Dr. Val Ojo,
When I think you are incapable of getting any worse, you plumb deeper into the depths of crassness. Tosin Mustapha is a daughter to you age-wise.. So what is the justification for all these you wrote below?
Look leave the young beautiful girl alone and act your age. She is a Princess and you keep saying hurtful things to her. You fight dirty with men, your mother in law, and now this young girl. Haba Baba agba, ibi owo ni a nba arugbo ke. Haba elder! It is the place of honour that an elder resides.
Leave this lovely Princess alone. She is not here for you to insult. Whatever went in the past, let bygone be bygone!
Cheers.
IBK
------ Original Message ------
Received: 11:57 PM EAT, 01/19/2011
From: "Dr. Valentine Ojo"
To:Cc: Participants.Group@..., , , , ,
Subject: RE: The sky is too vast for birds to fly without hitting each other RE: “ABURO RE NKOLE IWO INJISO.â€
Tosin Mustapha, Kofoorun New York:
Continue to rant - I have no time for a FRUSTRATED BITCH and WHORE like you who no man wants to live with.
Just like you, your MOTHER too was a BITCH who was kicked out by the man who refused to accept you as his daughter - and you know exactly what I mean:
Owu ti iya ba gbin ni omo yi o hun - you are merely following in your mother's footsteps.
At least my Agaracha wife is in her husband's house....Asewo Tosin Mustapha, where are you...?
Where is your MOTHER...?
I am not done with you yet, you DIRTY STINKING BITCH!
By the time I am through with you, you will be ashamed to look at yourself in the mirror. Everytime you look at your ugly self in the mirror, you will break down in tears!
You FAT UGLY SLOB - ti o da bi i ponmo ti won gbage sinu omi!
FAT and UGLY BITCH - like a piece of ponmo that was forgotten in water!On Wed 01/19/11 3:38 PM , Tosin Mustapha tosinmustapha40@... sent:
Valentine Ojo,
Your mother is a witch who was stoned in Ondo town and she gave birth to a bastard like you calling yourself a Yoruba meanwhile it was an Igbo tout who impregnsated your mother in Ondo so your family gave you away not to disgrace them . Your tramp whom you call your wife Ngozi Agatha Christy Ojo is a notorious "agarasha"-prostituteOnly a prostitute will live with someone like you and say she has a h. Your daughters Omolayo Ojo and Omotayo Ojo are NOTORIOUS PROSTITUTES AND WELL KNOWN tramps. All the women in your family from generation to generation are frustrated WHORES and are cursed because you are a cursed old fool.. agBAYA AIYE NWO E NOII AWO SUKUN O NWO ARA E NI AWO RERIN. The whole world is praying for your cure from serious mental sickness you are calling yourself an elder. Yorubas do not have eldwers who behave like you in our blood. We know ourselves and you are not one of Yorubas.DNA will prove where you are actually from. Stop sending email to me because I am not a sadist like you and your gang of sadists. You specifically wrote my email so don`t pretend you did not know you sent me an email . Oloshi ode agba osi agbaya jati jati . Afis would have thrown you to Igbo irunmole aka Tall Timbers but we begged him to spare you so that the ewins will not quickly kill you taking you as one of them since you look like the "shigidis" in Yoruba plays of olden days. I googled your picture and I saw you look just like a "shigidi" or "iwin so I was not surprised you write the way you write. Call the people who read from you and write tothem that their wives and sisters are prostitutes and see if they will not lynch your crooked head. OLODO OSI PHD IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE MY FOOT WHEN YOUR MATES HAVE PHD IN SCIENCE, YOU CAME BACK WITH FOREIGN LANGUAGE WHICH EVERY SCHOLAR HAD TO KNOW BEFORE STARTING THEIR COURSES. Your mates are retring with dignity after a sojourn abroad.
TOSIN
From: Ibukunolu Alao Babajide <i...@usa.net>
To: Wharf Snake <wharf...@yahoo.com>; val...@md.metrocast.net; AfricanTalk <Afric...@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: Participa...@pear.metrocast.net; tosinmu...@yahoo.com; odide...@yahoo.com; reu...@yahoo.co.u; jb...@cdc.gov
Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 8:28:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Spam] Re: The sky is too vast for birds to fly without hitting each other RE: “ABURO RE NKOLE IWO INJISO.”Worm,
He majored in Linguistics but his man language was German, hence leach instead of leash!
Yeye boy, na dat one your wormy eye go catch.
IBK
------ Original Message ------
Received: 05:44 AM EAT, 01/20/2011
From: Wharf Snake <wharf...@yahoo.com>
To: val...@md.metrocast.net, AfricanTalk <Afric...@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: Participa...@pear.metrocast.net, tosinmu...@yahoo.com, odide...@yahoo.com, reu...@yahoo.co.u, i...@usa.net, jb...@cdc.gov
Subject: [Spam] Re: The sky is too vast for birds to fly without hitting each other RE: “ABURO RE NKOLE IWO INJISO.”"The best you can do for her is put your FAT UGLY BITCH on a leach - orher ASS is mine!" Dr. valentine ojo, Ph.D.
Should that not be leash, instead of leach? Dr. Ojo has a doctorate in languages and may have a reason for using leach instead of leash.
Agwo emeghi nke o jiri buru agwo,umuaka achiri ya hie nku
Wharf Aiseokhuoba Snake
Idi-oro, Lagos.
From: Dr. Valentine Ojo <val...@md.metrocast.net>
To: AfricanTalk <Afric...@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: Participa...@pear.metrocast.net; tosinmu...@yahoo.com; odide...@yahoo.com; reu...@yahoo.co.u; i...@usa.net; jb...@cdc.gov
Sent: Wed, January 19, 2011 4:51:46 PM
Subject: RE: The sky is too vast for birds to fly without hitting each other RE: “ABURO RE NKOLE IWO INJISO.”
IBK:
Sorry o!
The answer is an unequivocal NO!
I am going to teach that FAT UGLY BITCH to INSULT my DEAD MOTHER and my DAUGHTERS!
You ain't seen or heard NOTHING yet!
The best you can do for her is put your FAT UGLY BITCH on a leach - or her ASS is mine!
When I am through with that WORTHLESS WHORE, Tosin Mustapha, she will be ready to HANG HERSELF - or jump in the NEAREST WELL or RIVER and drown!!!
That is a promise I made to my DEAD MOTHER!
Dr. Valentine Ojo
Tall Timbers, MD
On Wed 01/19/11 4:45 PM , "Ibukunolu Alao Babajide" i...@usa.net sent:Dear Dr. Val Ojo,
Have you not in the past abused me worse than this and I walk away from it? Just walk away and do not pay evil with evil - after all the age difference between you and Tosin Mustapha is the same as the age difference between her and your daughters.
You took offence to her bringing your children and wife into this but you have also brought my own father into insults here though they did nothing to you.Just play the role of the elder that you love to tell us you are and you really are from your pictures you have eaten a lot of calendars in your time and let the poor girl be. Leave her alone!
Cheers.
IBK
------ Original Message ------
Received: 12:37 AM EAT, 01/20/2011
From: "Dr. Valentine Ojo"
To: "AfricanTalk"
Cc: , , , ,
Subject: [Spam] [Naijaintellects] RE: The sky is too vast for birds to fly without hitting each other RE: “ABURO RE NKOLE IWO INJISO.”"So what is the justification for all these you wrote below?" - IBK
IBK:
If you cannot see the justification for what I wrote, then that is your problem.
So for you, IBK this is not enough justification:
"Your mother is a witch who was stoned in Ondo town and she gave birth to a bastard like you calling yourself a Yoruba meanwhile it was an Igbo tout who impregnsated your mother in Ondo so your family gave you away not to disgrace them ....Your daughters Omolayo Ojo and Omotayo Ojo are NOTORIOUS PROSTITUTES AND WELL KNOWN tramps."
Then IBK, I cannot help you!
You will allow some FAT UGLY BITCH to talk about YOUR MOTHER and YOUR DAUGHTERS like this (when you did nothing to her) - and let her go Scott free...?
Good for you then!
If the BITCH TOSIN MUSTAPHA is your idea of a "young beautiful girl" and a "lovely Princess", then your taste in women has more than "plumbed deeper into the depths of crassness "!
You have no taste in women! Period!
You can keep your "DIRTY STINKING BITCH" and "FAT-ARSE UGLY SLOB"!
IBK, no need to play coy - if you want to join your friend, that ISALE EKO BASTARD, Afis Odidere, to ABUSE and INSULT me, please come out openly, and stop hiding-behind one finger!
I am not done with that FAT UGLY BITCH yet - until she breaks down and cry!!!
Dr. Valentine Ojo
Tall Timbers, MD
On Wed 01/19/11 4:10 PM , "Ibukunolu Alao Babajide" i...@usa.net sent:Dear Dr. Val Ojo,
When I think you are incapable of getting any worse, you plumb deeper into the depths of crassness. Tosin Mustapha is a daughter to you age-wise.. So what is the justification for all these you wrote below?
Look leave the young beautiful girl alone and act your age. She is a Princess and you keep saying hurtful things to her. You fight dirty with men, your mother in law, and now this young girl. Haba Baba agba, ibi owo ni a nba arugbo ke. Haba elder! It is the place of honour that an elder resides.
Leave this lovely Princess alone. She is not here for you to insult. Whatever went in the past, let bygone be bygone!
Cheers.
IBK
------ Original Message ------
Received: 11:57 PM EAT, 01/19/2011
From: "Dr. Valentine Ojo"
To:
Cc: Participa...@mango.metrocast.net, , , , ,
Subject: RE: The sky is too vast for birds to fly without hitting each other RE: “ABURO RE NKOLE IWO INJISO.”Tosin Mustapha, Kofoorun New York:
Continue to rant - I have no time for a FRUSTRATED BITCH and WHORE like you who no man wants to live with.
Just like you, your MOTHER too was a BITCH who was kicked out by the man who refused to accept you as his daughter - and you know exactly what I mean:
Owu ti iya ba gbin ni omo yi o hun - you are merely following in your mother's footsteps..
At least my Agaracha wife is in her husband's house....Asewo Tosin Mustapha, where are you...?
Where is your MOTHER...?
I am not done with you yet, you DIRTY STINKING BITCH!
By the time I am through with you, you will be ashamed to look at yourself in the mirror. Everytime you look at your ugly self in the mirror, you will break down in tears!
You FAT UGLY SLOB - ti o da bi i ponmo ti won gbage sinu omi!
FAT and UGLY BITCH - like a piece of ponmo that was forgotten in water!
On Wed 01/19/11 3:38 PM , Tosin Mustapha tosinmu...@yahoo.com sent:Valentine Ojo,
Your mother is a witch who was stoned in Ondo town and she gave birth to a bastard like you calling yourself a Yoruba meanwhile it was an Igbo tout who impregnsated your mother in Ondo so your family gave you away not to disgrace them . Your tramp whom you call your wife Ngozi Agatha Christy Ojo is a notorious "agarasha"-prostituteOnly a prostitute will live with someone like you and say she has a h. Your daughters Omolayo Ojo and Omotayo Ojo are NOTORIOUS PROSTITUTES AND WELL KNOWN tramps. All the women in your family from generation to generation are frustrated WHORES and are cursed because you are a cursed old fool.. agBAYA AIYE NWO E NOII AWO SUKUN O NWO ARA E NI AWO RERIN. The whole world is praying for your cure from serious mental sickness you are calling yourself an elder. Yorubas do not have eldwers who behave like you in our blood. We know ourselves and you are not one of Yorubas.DNA will prove where you are actually from. Stop sending email to me because I am not a sadist like you and your gang of sadists. You specifically wrote my email so don`t pretend you did not know you sent me an email . Oloshi ode agba osi agbaya jati jati . Afis would have thrown you to Igbo irunmole aka Tall Timbers but we begged him to spare you so that the ewins will not quickly kill you taking you as one of them since you look like the "shigidis" in Yoruba plays of olden days. I googled your picture and I saw you look just like a "shigidi" or "iwin so I was not surprised you write the way you write. Call the people who read from you and write tothem that their wives and sisters are prostitutes and see if they will not lynch your crooked head. OLODO OSI PHD IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE MY FOOT WHEN YOUR MATES HAVE PHD IN SCIENCE, YOU CAME BACK WITH FOREIGN LANGUAGE WHICH EVERY SCHOLAR HAD TO KNOW BEFORE STARTING THEIR COURSES. Your mates are retring with dignity after a sojourn abroad.
TOSIN
From: Dr. Valentine Ojo
To: AfricanTalk
Cc: Participa...@pear.metrocast.net; tosinmu...@yahoo.com; odide...@yahoo.com; reu...@yahoo.co..u; i...@usa.net; jb...@cdc.gov
Sent: Wed, January 19, 2011 3:12:22 PM
Subject: [NIgerianWorldForum] Re: The sky is too vast for birds to fly without hitting each other RE: “ABURO RE NKOLE IWO INJISO.”
Mr. Afis Odidere:
Please RE-POST or "show me an email where I specifically seeked your help"
Or shut the fuck up if you are unable to back up YOUR LIES with tangible evidence.
" What you always do is to "privately" email few people seeking help."
Can you at least name some of these "few people [from whom I am] seeking help"..?
And also re-post one of these "private e-mails" that I wrote you in your DRUNKEN FANTASY....?
Or this is another of your cognac/whiskey/ogogoro fantasies...?
Oh, "mostly IBK and I, over the years have "counselled" you"...?
So you have not noticed that even your buddy IBK has left you in your MADNESS and your OBSESSION with Dr. Ojo...?
You are mentally more UNBALANCED than any human being has a right to be.
Just show one single e-mail where I sought your "counsel"...Were Omo Ale ti ko le cousel ara re!
I would not send my dog to your like for counseling!
A VAGRANT BASTARD and SON OF A BITCH like yourself! You are now the one who is going to end up carrying MATTO'S SHIT for him in a matter which is really NONE of YOUR BUSINESS!
But that is how you know REAL BASTARDS!!!
If TRAMPS and BITCHES like Topsin Mustapha are your ideal of womanhood - then good luck!
The BITCH Tosin Mustapha writes:
" Valentine Ojo,Don`t ever ever ever in your miserable life send me an email again!!!!!!!!!!!!"
The WHORE is not on my mailing list, and I have no clue who added the WHORE's e-mail to list.
And the DUMB BITCH has the nerves to write me directly!
Afis Odidere, since Tosin Mustapha is your kind of woman - you can have the WRETCHED FRUSTRATED WHORE!!!.
Beside, I am through with your DUMB RANT - I have better things to do than arguing with a THUG and a HOOLIGAN like yourself.
But please continue to rant...this is my last response to you..
Like I already noted, I know YOUR FATHER - if at all you know who was your father - did not raise a BASTARD like you right, so anything you say or write will not surprise any decent human being.
I did not notice that your BITCH of a GIRLFRIEND, Tosin Mustapha wrote anything....she deserves no answer since she is merely seeking attention.
Iwo ke, se OMO ALE ati OMO ORO ni e, o ma gbo baba nla oro!
Continue! Let the games begin!
Dr. Valentine Ojo
Tall Timbers, MD
On Wed 01/19/11 2:43 PM , afis odide...@yahoo.com sent:"Mr. Afis Odidere, did I, Valentine Ojo, EVER at anytime pick up the phone to call you, or send you an e-mail to seek your "advise" or "counsel" on anything...?
So, why your unsolicited counsel.....?
Are you the only person on these forums who can dish out unsolicited counsel...?" By Dr Val Ojo..
Afis comment: Nope, you did not seek "counsel", Dr Val Ojo, only wise people seek counsel. Unwise men bounce off the walls, becoming erratic and lacking consistency and predictability, just like you.
What you always do is to "privately" email few people seeking help. Don't come back with "show me an email where I specifically seeked your help". That would be foolish. No one would believe you would blatantly utter words to incriminate you, but the subtlety have always been obvious for those who could read between the lines.
When you send such emails privately to a few people, most people normally ignore you, but mostly IBK and I, over the years have "counselled" you, advising you to move away from self-destruction.
And when you usually find out no one wants to aid you publicly, you turn it into "roforofo", accusing those who advised you of been womanizers, pro-Igbo, anti-Yoruba....and more blah. So top asking questions that beg for response.
I just read your response to mine which is below Lady Tosin's, it's very important to note that you, Dr Ojo seems to have mellow-out with visible congeniality in your posting below.
Are you now learning your lessons post-age 50+?
The posting below that of Lady Tosin's does not resemble a Dr Ojo's.
Please keep up the redemption, before long you could become a Born-again something.
If you have been responding to other humans the way you did below, it would have passed for normalcy.
Shikena.
afis
From: Tosin Mustapha
To: val...@md.metrocast.net
Cc: NIGERI...@YAHOOGROUPS.COM; talkn...@yahoogroups.com; afis ; pamela...@yahoo.com; i...@usa.net
Sent: Wed, January 19, 2011 2:18:19 PM
Subject: Re: The sky is too vast for birds to fly without hitting each other RE: “ABURO RE NKOLE IWO INJISO.”Valentine Ojo,
Don`t ever ever ever in your miserable life send me an email again!!!!!!!!!!!!
Igi imu gina si ori water finds its own level so go and write to people in your own category who want to read from you . I delete your name whenever it comes up in a yahoogroup.
Tosin
From: Dr. Valentine Ojo
To: Afric...@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Participa...@mango.metrocast.net; odide...@yahoo.com; pamela...@yahoo.com; tosinmu...@yahoo.com; i...@usa.net
Sent: Wed, January 19, 2011 1:19:08 AM
Subject: RE: The sky is too vast for birds to fly without hitting each other RE: “ABURO RE NKOLE IWO INJISO.”
Mr. Afis Odidere:
1. Please show where I was the one who started to abuse or insult you in the current imbroglio with Mr. Martin Akindana who opened the salvo of insults on me - unprovoked.
2. "You and I, mostly I, have counselled Dr Ojo several times..."
Mr. Afis Odidere, did I, Valentine Ojo, EVER at anytime pick up the phone to call you, or send you an e-mail to seek your "advise" or "counsel" on anything...?
So, why your unsolicited counsel....?
Are you the only person on these forums who can dish out unsolicited counsel...?
Is counseling by force...or is it a voluntary service that can be ignored?
3. "Why don't you dare advise Dr Ojo and see if he will not "bite a tree"...
And what exactly would you know about what transpires between Dele Olawole and myself...?
4. "Dr Ojo is a foolishly stubborn old fool, who do not recognize those who like him from those who despise him. He neither knows when to fight or when to make peace. He keeps lining up and piling up enemies, never settling or ironing out old issues, just keeps aggravating without "soothing" at any point ..."
And if true, why should any of this be any of YOUR BUSINESS...?
5. "Everyone on every forum he has offended, and most of them have vowed on bibeli and quran to get his ass. Dr Ojo is an equal opportunity annoyer."
And I again ask you - why should this be YOUR HEADACHE...?
6. So, what do you call this...
" Dr Ojo is a foolishly stubborn old fool... Let me give you a sample of what Dr Ojo, an agbaya, will say..."
You are not ABUSING and INSULTING me...when I did NOTHING to you...?
Your answer would surely interest some forums participants...why Dr. Ojo's WAHALA must be yours to now carry to the point of trying to make an "enemy" out of Dr. Ojo.
Unfortunately for you though, Mr. Afis Odidere, the self-appointed counselor to Dr. Ojo, I have no room for making enemies in my life.
And I have no time to waste on POMPOUS and OPINIONATED FOOLS like you.
Now please continue with your INSULTS and ABUSES...if that is what makes you feel like a man.
Dr. Valentine Ojo
Tall Timbers, MD
On Wed 01/19/11 12:10 AM , afis odide...@yahoo.com sent:
"Yoruba say - Eni ti ko ba ni je ka jeun kayo, a si ti e mo sa se ni - Someone that would not allow you to eat to your satisfaction you add his own portion when cooking. This proverb has both negative and positive undertone dwelling on its positive side - we should learn to get on well with one another. Compromise here, bend here and play the game of life - A tree that fails to obey the vibrancy of the wind is easily uprooted. Rigidity is a disease that is not humane." By Dele Olawole.
Afis comment: I know in Naija way you have said well, but in my book the above only applies to when dealing with equally sound minds, not Dr Ojo and Chukwuma AgwuZombie. Both are "iroko-tree biters"..
Brother Dele, you know me by now, I just can't let hogwash pass under my bridge without stopping the crap at three houses before mine.
If you could give us one instance when Dr Ojo, an elder, ever compromise or bend for anyone, then I assure you I'll swallow my pride and do big idobale for wronging a bend-able and compromising and reasonable alagba in our midst.
Again, if you could give any instance where the crazy-boy called Nkwowere madman ever listen to anyone but his voice, I'll take a trip to Nkwowere and pay for a new Asylum which shall be named Aro psych hosp..
The fact is, Dele you're giving unusable advise, it's worse than pissing and walking in the wind at the same time.
No reasonable person can take that advise you're giving.
The question is: For how long should anyone keep "bending", and "compromising" with an "alagidi" like Dr Ojo?
A man who is older than some of us by just few years, just few years, some less than five, but whose way of responding to any question is by insulting people's parents and ancestors, and that is everyone? How do you bend or compromise with a man whose favorite chewing stick is one's father or mother?
Ipe wo ni ofe se fun omo ti caterpillar pa iya re, my brother?
Dele, is it out of cowardice that you "choose" to advise Matto, whom you already know will not insult you?
Why don't you dare advise Dr Ojo and see if he will not "bite a tree" like Chukwuma AgwuZombie?
You and I, mostly I, have counselled Dr Ojo several times in the dark, trying to keep our Odua issues in-house. And don't tell me he ever agreed or compromised on anything. Dr Ojo is a foolishly stubborn old fool, who do not recognize those who like him from those who despise him. He neither knows when to fight or when to make peace. He keeps lining up and piling up enemies, never settling or ironing out old issues, just keeps aggravating without "soothing" at any point.
Like I said, if Dr Ojo should find himself under some suspicious non-breathing situation, I don't think Angela Lansbury of "Murder She Wrote" would be able to solve the mystery of "who dunnit" on Dr Ojo. Everyone on every forum he has offended, and most of them have vowed on bibeli and quran to get his ass. Dr Ojo is an equal opportunity annoyer.
Let me give you a sample of what Dr Ojo, an agbaya, will say: "Dele, it shows you've no home-training.......blah and more blah".
My brother, I could hide behind "ai sododo, ai so oto" and say "you've said well", then that would be uncharacteristically Afis.
Shikena,
afis
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toyin adepoju
Toyin Adepoju was not raised by Humans. This is confirmed.He was raised by Yemoja, alias Mamie-water, also known by Kalabari-s as Yeye-okun meh.Toyin lived among aliens called "sleeping with Da fishes" for 30 good years.He still breaths thru his acquired fins, sucking in air and water.That is why he keeps trying to translate "ede-elede" while water still deluged his brain.Now let see if we can think together:"Oju orun to eiye fo lai fi iga kan 'ga". The sky is vast enough for "all" birds to fly without "clipping" each others wings."Clipping" here means to disrupt, to curb, to render the other incapable of flying.Flying has a dual usage. Flying as in Freedom, as free as a flying bird.It goes deeper than just mere "bumping" into each other as Toyin Adepoju wants us to believe in his translation which he states: "The sky is too vast for birds to fly without hitting each other"."Hitting" neither sounds conclusive as a dramatic ACT nor does it show any authoritativeness.Rather it sounds as if no bird is in charge of the overpowering, of "ceasing by force" the other's existentialist ways of "flying unshackled".When one bird "hits" the other, there's no sense of finality, we're therefore in suspense.I don't think that is what our "founding fathers" (hahahaha), intended."Clipping of each other's wings" shows permanent "incapacitation" of one bird of the other....in my view, that is conclusive, it's non-ambiguous, and brings an ACT to an end.In other to really understand the meaning, one has to first understand what "fi iga kan iga" means. And before one could truly translate "fi iga kan iga", (not as in touch, "kan" here means "clip") one must understand the ways of the Yoruba. "Clip" as in "kan" have dual usage here, to reduce one's authority as in "to deny one" of soaring above all others as in "odidere flies above other birds".Or "clip" as in to curb or destroy the other bird's wings, which in this case it will not have the "will" to fly any longer.It's not "fi iga gba iga", that is the Omo-eko version.The Yoruba will say "Ti irin ba kan irin, ikan ate", but nowadays the Omo-eko-s will say "bi irin ba kan irin, irin kan a dun", as in one iron will make a sound "dun".Anyways, to really understand the true meaning, you've got to understand the libertarianism of the Yoruba world.The Yoruba's libertarianism laced in Liberalism that allows "atoun rinwa" to live among Yoruba, and to later claim "na we own Lagos".Of living and let others live. Of letting others grow beneath one's wings.Of adaptation of attitude of Liberalism in Yoruba Capitalism, but still adhering to the principles of social conservatism of Yoruba life.It is all intertwined.My own interpretation, nobody else.Shikena.afis
From: toyin adepoju <toyin....@googlemail.com>
To: Chatafrik Network Groups <chat...@msn.com>; Yoruba Affairs <yoruba...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Odua <omo...@yahoogroups.com>; i...@usa.net; tosinmu...@yahoo.com; African Oracle <theo...@africaservice.com>; odide...@yahoo.com; Mr. Seyi Olu Awofeso <awo...@mwebafrica.com>; aade...@mac.com
Sent: Sat, January 22, 2011 2:55:27 AM
Subject: Re: Oju orun to eiye fo lai fi iga gba iga! Help Translate FW: The sky is too vast for birds to fly without hitting each other
toyin adepoju
Okay oooo, if my good brother Toyin wants Afis to say it loud, okay ooo.But I don't think other Humans will like this oooo, but I'll say it oooo:Hear ye, Hear ye all Humans! Spread your ears on the ground (te eti sile).Brother Toyin has promised to be Human.He promised that he would no longer be an interloper of Yoruba culture.Henceforth he's to be accorded all the rights, respect, traditional hat and walking stick, and all functionalities of a full blooded Human.He's neither to be perceived, nor referred to as a relative of non-Humans, especially the Mamie-water sea-siders.No one should call upon brother Toyin to attend the last rites of Yemoja, alias Mamie-water, even if Yemoja camouflags as Yeye-Okun meh.Are you satisfied now, brother Toyin?Look my brother, you're officially a Human from now on.....unless you interlope again oooo. lol.Shikena.afis
To: afis <odide...@yahoo.com>
Cc: Chatafrik Network Groups <chat...@msn.com>; Yoruba Affairs <yoruba...@googlegroups.com>; Odua <omo...@yahoogroups.com>; naijao...@yahoogroups.com; talkn...@yahoogroups.com; niger...@yahoogroups.com; nigerianw...@yahoogroups.com; i...@usa.net; tosinmu...@yahoo.com; African Oracle <theo...@africaservice.com>; Mr. Seyi Olu Awofeso <awo...@mwebafrica.com>; aade...@mac.com
Sent: Mon, January 24, 2011 9:47:23 AM
Subject: Re: Oju orun to eiye fo lai fi iga gba iga! Help Translate : The sky is too vast for birds to fly without hitting each other
toyin adepoju
"I am actually developing my own distinctive method of Ifa training.I am also succeeding. Signs of success:1. I am able to write my own ese ifa.2. People request to use my ese ifa.3. People acknowledge my knowledge of Ifa and offer me opportunities to write a book on Ifa which they will fund.4. People recognize my knowledge of Ifa and ask me to contribute to scholarly literature.
5. People write me telling me how much they admire my work on Ifa and Yoruba culture." By Toyin Adepoju.Afis comment: Congrats on your successes above, but what you're writing are bunch of essays, nothing spiritual.Toyin, my brother, what you wrote upto date are not "ese ifa", because none of your poems can be used in divination, and if used those poems will keep the user as blind as a bat in a dark cave.Toyin, you still don't understand what we're telling you, that "ese ifa" cannot be duplicated, cannot be refined, they are distinctly for spiritual and divination purposes.I take it all back, you're not Human, Toyin!!!No more Human recognitionfor you.You dis mamie-water boy.
Shikena.afis
From: toyin adepoju <toyin....@googlemail.com>
To: afis <odide...@yahoo.com>
Cc: Chatafrik Network Groups <chat...@msn.com>; Yoruba Affairs <yoruba...@googlegroups.com>; Odua <omo...@yahoogroups.com>; naijao...@yahoogroups.com; talkn...@yahoogroups.com; niger...@yahoogroups.com; nigerianw...@yahoogroups.com; i...@usa.net; tosinmu...@yahoo.com; African Oracle <theo...@africaservice.com>; Mr. Seyi Olu Awofeso <awo...@mwebafrica.com>; aade...@mac.com
Sent: Mon, January 24, 2011 10:58:23 AM
toyin adepoju
Odidere,
[ I use your ancestral name as a honorific salutation]
I always enjoy reading you. You are one of my consistent inspirers. You always feed me, making me stronger, helping me guide the Esu in me to reveal himself/ herself and the path more clearly.
To take your points one by one:
"What makes you think that my ese ifa cannot be used for spiritual and divination purposes?" By Toyin Adepoju.
Afis answer: Same reason why reasonable people will think a made-up bible cannot replace Old or new testaments. Same reason why a created Al Qur'an by Toyin will be seen as "Al Manafiq" creations, by those who strictly adhere to the tenets of Al-Islamiyat.
Toyin, yours is not "ese ifa", it's what is called "Adamodere", counterfeit. However, because of "open-eye" we're allowed to call yours "poems".
Toyin:
We might have a problem here with your response. The problem occurs in relation to the differences between the political, doctrinal and institutional organization of Ifa and the Abrahamic religions and material forms of their scriptures and the underlying metaphysical conceptions relating to those scriptures. Ironically, in one of our exchanges you helped me appreciate a vital point of the difference between ese ifa and most written literature but you might not remember it now or appreciate its significance in this context.
Ese ifa are not equatable to the Bible and the Koran in terms of canon formation, the canon being the generally recognised authoritative texts of a tradition. This difference emerges from the fact that the Abrahamic religions have decreed that their texts are fixed and no more additions may be made.In the case of the Bible,the choice of texts to include or exckude was made at various times,with various Bibles,like the Jerusalem Bible (?) and the King James having some difference in terms of books included or excluded.
The decision to fix the holy texts of these religions in only one book each is strictly a decision made by Muhammad,in the case of Islam and by the Church authorities in the case of Christianity. In the case of Muhammed,he is understood as the seal of the prophets,meaning the prophetic tradition comes to an end with him.In the case of the Church and Muhammed, it can be argued that this fixation on one text is vital for enforcing dogma and enforcing centralised authority.
These religions are dogmatic, based upon a body of beliefs which believers must hold.In the past transgressions against these beliefs was punished by execution. Having a single inflexible text is central to such authoritarian control.
Ifa, on the other hand, is based on an expanding body of texts.The ese ifa are constantly being developed,as attested by the development of various ese ifa at various points in history,as attested by their content,such as the one of how Jesus came to be born in Yorubaland,and got the name Je we sun-Je ke ewe sun-let the herbs sleep-as told in Bolaji Idowu’s Olodumare.
In this sense,therefore, ese ifa are closer to the sacred texts of Hinduism and Buddhism, particularly to the body of Buddhist texts called Zen koans, which are not fixed and which share a similar undogmatic and irreverent but paradoxically profound spirit as Ifa. In Zen koans, you can see the Buddha, the founder of Buddhism seeming to be ridiculed. In Ifa you will see Orunmila and the orisa being presented as comic figures,even as engaging in stealing. In Zen and, I expect, in Ifa,such portrayals are not meant to be taken literally. They are not historical,like most of the Bible is suppused to be nor are devotees supposed to necessarily take the contents of ese ifa literally, if not, people will have to believe that okote,the squirrel,actually consulted a babalawo as he is shown doing in ese ifa, along with the lion and other animals in other ese ifa.
So, the criterion for assessing the spiritual significance of new ese ifa cannot be based on similarities to the Bible and the Koran beceause ese Ifa is very different from the Abrahamix texts even though they are all sacred texts.
"I am not talking of duplication or refinement.I am simply creating my own ese ifa like other people created their own." By Toyin Adepoju.
Afis comment: Your "ese Ifa" creations are mere poems of no spiritual value.
Toyin: I wont respond to this point because it is not backed up by any justification.What is at stake is not what Afis or Toyin thinks but the truth of the matter,as far as that can be ascertained.
"The fundamental question here is - under what conditions can ese ifa be valid as spiritual agents?" Toyin Adepoju.
Afis comment: Toyin, please answer these questions:
What makes a Bible a religious book?
What makes an Al Qur'an a revered book for the Muslims?
Why would the Saudi authorities ban any adulteration or a Toyin's "creation" of Al Qur'an?
If a Toyin Adepoju, after binging on ogogoro, decides to write his own Al Qur'an verses, what is wrong in that? By doing so, will the Muslims not declare an al-Jihad on Toyin for defiling their Holy Book?
And after the Ogogoro wears off, can Toyin sell such "counterfeited" Al Qur'an to true believers in Al-Islam?
Under what conditions can Toyin Adepoju writes his own new verses for the Christian Bible?
Toyin, I could register with Yoruba Affairs.com and come there to scatter pebbles in your Gari, but of what purpose would that serve?
If you can convince some Munguns that your poems are "New and Improved ese ifa", why should I deflate your bubble?
Toyin, I should be proud of my heritage, and I should at least commend you for all your "akitiyan".
We have here latter-day Yoruba fanatics of the Christian faith called "wild xtians" by Wole Soyinka, and we've the "ajagbemo-keferi-s" muslims, who are denying there Yoruba heritage both right and left.
And here you are, a man raised by Mamie-water (we don't know where Toyin hails from), persistently pursuing a project in which Yoruba culture is the sole beneficiary.
So why should I throw sand-sand in your Gari?
My brother, go ahead, knock yourself out.
Shikena.
afis
Toyin: Again Afis is making the largely spurious correlation of ese ifa and the Abrahamic texts which I have responded to above so I dont need to respond to it again.
Afis suggests that he can report me or discredit me by registering with a Yoruba body. The very limited value of that again underscores why Ifa is not dogmatic nor centrally administered. There is no central regulatory body of Ifa. The bottom line is-if people like my ese ifa, they will adopt them.If I am able to help with their problems, anything anybody says becomes meaningless.Of course, the fanaticism of trying to pubnish anyone for being a heretic does not exist in Ifa.
Afis and some others keep talking as if Ifa is frozen in time and is still purely the preserve of scribally illiterate but erudite babalawo in Yorubaland when in fact it now has an almost global spread.
My Ifa teacher in Benin, Joseph Ohomina, is a retired headmaster who has written two books on Ifa in English,used to teach me in English and read my books on Buddhism and my TIME magazine article on neurology of religion.
Kolawole Ositola, a Yoruba babalawo trained in Yorubaland, in a family lineage of babalawo, and based for many years in Yorubaland, published an article in English in the academic journal The Drama Review on his work as a babalawo.
One is more likely to find babalawo in the US who have tertiary Western education than find people with such education practicing Ifa in Yorubaland.If anyone wants to dispute this, I am interested.
Now, I present the more valid reasons to support Afis critique of my creating new ese ifa,using Afis own ideas which he seems to have forgotten. After developing Afis critique, I will respond to it with my own perspective.
Afis once made the very important point that ese ifa are more than conventional literature because they are incantations.
This is a very deep point. This is so even though it is not completely accurate on the power of literature in general. This point relates to the metaphysics and epistemology of ese ifa. Metaphysics can be described as dealing with the underlying nature of reality. Epistemology deals with the nature of knowledge, the relationships between various kinds of knowledge and how one arrives at these various forms of knowledge.
According to Pierre Verger in Ewe: The Uses of Plants in Yoruba Tradition, ese ifa are communicated to the Ifa disciple through a rhythmic form meant to enhance the transmission of ase, the cosmic force that enables being and becoming, which can be seen as the active agent in application of ese ifa to addressing the issues the client brings to the babalawo..Susan Wenger in A Life with the Gods(one of the greatest books known to me in any religion.To get a copy do a search on bookfinder.com )sums up a similar perspective in describing ase:
"Ase is the sacred energy of orisa or any potency of life,with a meta-genealogical immanence in anything that lives( which in Yoruba thought means all that exists.)" ".it can be diverted by appropriate arrangements of rhythm and sound forms into incantation and adjuration. Ase is also the motive force inherent in the Word, the living pulsation of Odu,the heartbeat of Ifa's sacred number symbolism".
Reinforcing these conceptions in a different context, Bini babalawo Joseph Ohomina states in a conversation that the babalawo's utterance of particular possibilities in the ritual context of divination enables those possibilities to come to be.
Correlating these sources,and adding the example of Verger's book which provides a broad range of activities to be magically accomplished,using herbs and incantations related to particular odu ifa, one can better understand Afis' contention that the ese ifa are incantations.
Why do I think that I, who is not trained as a babalawo and does not plan to undergo such training, might have the potential of achieving the kinds of effects ese ifa are supposed to be able to achieve when used in a ritual context?
A delicate issue and one in relation to which I am moving in the dark but not a darkness of blindness. A darkness where you dont navigate with your physical eyes but with your body ,your senses and your sixth sense.
First, I get the impression that anybody can cultivate ase. It is inherent in all of us and in the environment. All you ned to do is work at cultivating it. l also hold that all works of literature contain ase. Rolwand Abiodun’s description in Ase:Verblising and Visualizing Creative Power through Art (Journal of Religion in Africa,Vol.24,1994. 309-322.Attached) of ase potent speech in Yoruba may be ubnderstood as appying to literature in general in different ways and at different levels of intensity : “…the verbal complex of ase is made up of potent sacred oratory which makes heavy and esoteric use of metaphors in distinctive language patterns and poetic structures”.
For my ese ifa to be useful to effect change ,two criteria are important
1.My cultivation of my personal ase.
2.My channeling that ase through the ese ifa.
I am working on those goals.
I am also convinced that the sentient non-physical agents of Ifa, conventionally called spirits, are ready to assist anyone who is ready. I am also convinced that one's ori,one's personal spirit, an invisible but potent capacity of the self, which it seems may manifest as another personality in relation to the everyday self, is also ready to assist.
I am convinced of this beceause of the visitations I have had from invisible agents while simply reflecting on Ifa,visitations that led me to continue my study of Ifa after I had burnt all my non-Christian literature afterr becoming a Born-Again Christian. Even after I came to England,I would occasionally sense an invisible presence at my side when doing on my academic work on Ifa.
I sum up with the words of Jesus and babalawo Joseph Ohomnina:
'The spirit bloweth where it listeth and none knows whence it cometh and whither it goeth'.
Jesus
"The odu are the names of spirits whose origins we do not know.We understand only a small fraction of their significance. They are the brains behind the efficacy of whatever we prepare. All possibilities of existence, whether abstract or concrete,actual or potential ,from concrete forms such as rain,water,land, air and the stars,to abstract forms such as the emotions of love and hate, to situations such as conflict,ceremonies and celebrations,are represented in spiritual terms by the various odu".
From: toyin adepoju <toyin....@googlemail.com>
To: afis <odide...@yahoo.com>
Cc: Chatafrik Network Groups <chat...@msn.com>; Yoruba Affairs <yoruba...@googlegroups.com>; Odua <omo...@yahoogroups.com>; naijao...@yahoogroups.com; talkn...@yahoogroups.com; niger...@yahoogroups.com; nigerianw...@yahoogroups.com; i...@usa.net; tosinmu...@yahoo.com; African Oracle <theo...@africaservice.com>; Mr. Seyi Olu Awofeso <awo...@mwebafrica.com>; aade...@mac.com
Sent: Tue, January 25, 2011 7:04:21 PM
toyin adepoju
I read yours, brother Toyin.I'll respond after a second reading.Expect some response latest by Sunday 1/30/11.Meanwhile, please send me one of your "ese ifa" creations.Thanks,Shikena.afisPS: By the way, I did not say I'll report Toyin to some authority. All I said in jest is that I could throw"pebbles in your Gari" by joining Yoruba...@google.com". And I then asked "what good would that serve"? Moreso, when the main beneficiary of all your efforts is Yorubaland.Don't misquote, it's annoying.
From: toyin adepoju <toyin....@googlemail.com>
To: afis <odide...@yahoo.com>
Cc: Chatafrik Network Groups <chat...@msn.com>; Yoruba Affairs <yoruba...@googlegroups.com>; Odua <omo...@yahoogroups.com>; naijao...@yahoogroups.com; talkn...@yahoogroups.com; niger...@yahoogroups.com; nigerianw...@yahoogroups.com; i...@usa.net; tosinmu...@yahoo.com; African Oracle <theo...@africaservice.com>; Mr. Seyi Olu Awofeso <awo...@mwebafrica.com>; aade...@mac.com
Sent: Wed, January 26, 2011 4:31:33 PM
toyin adepoju
The same old story from Maximus.
No substantive content. Just a denunciation. How will this convince your readers that you have anything better to offerthan myself ?
He keeps talking about Eurocentric thought processes.What does he mean by that? Na only oyibo fit organise ideas logically?
I get the impression that by Eurocentrism Maximus refers to my effort to present Ifa as a logical system, which it is. Intelligence in humans and animals is defined by logic in its various forms. Even when Ifa engages in interactions between material and supra-material realms of being, it is not irrational. It is logical. People like Maximus seem to think the only authentic understanding and presentation of Ifa is in the traditional context. Sorry.
They are not aware that the basic structure of Ifa is so simple a child learning to count can learn it, since the structure is actually a numerical structure. This numerical structure is particularly lucid in its simplicity and the development of complexity from simplicity beceause it is based on variations of relationships between the numbers 1 and 2. Its so fascinating watching the manner the sequence of 256 visual forms is developed from this basic unit, represented by the first odu, Eji Ogbe, the first basic unit of organisation, and its relationship with the second, Ogbe Oyeku.
This basic numerical and visual structure may be understood in terms of a range of symbolism. According to Babatunde Lawal and Awo Dino Soto [both essays attached], this relationship between 1 and 2 demonstrates a number of ideas, central to which is the classical Yoruba (incidentally also Igbo and Taoist-Chinese) understanding of the cosmos as organised in terms of relationships between contrastive but complementary polarities.
Awo Falokun Fatumnbi describes the permutations of the odu as representing the patterns of ase, the cosmic force that enables being and becoming, as they emerge and undergo transformations in relation to specific situations [essay attached].
The literary texts related to each odu expresses the ideas the odu embodies. These texts also act as agents of action by the babalawo.
The odu themselves are understood not simply as categories of organisation, like the chapters of a book, but are also seen as active, sentient agents, spirits with their own ori or eternal identity and centre of ultimate possibility ( Wande Abimbola, An Exposition of Ifa Literary Corpus and Ifa Divination Poetry).
In being understood as sentient agents, the odu can be seen, in my view, as manifestations of Odu, the female personality/principle at the heart of Ifa, the wife of Orunmila, the ancient woman whose home is the calabash, the calabash the contents of which evoke the agents and forces that constitute the metaphysical structure and dynamism of the cosmos.
Anyway, for those who really want education on Ifa and are not content to wallow in whatever they might have known or heard about but want to see the great system growing in action, you may see my essay which develops Ifa as a system of exploration of the autobiographical letters and self portraiture of Vincent van Gogh, the legendary Dutch artist.
The purpose of this article is to demonstrate an aspect of the capacity of Ifa as a globally valid system of knowledge, a multi-disciplinary system that may be applied to develop new knowledge in a broad range of fields, from the arts, to the humanities, social sciences and sciences. It is possible to build an entire body of knowledge, responsive to the total body of knowledge developed in the world today and which may be developed in future, from the matrix of Ifa.
I am not claiming Ifa is a repository of all knowledge. If it is, as some babalawo claim, I am yet to discover that possibility. What I am in the process of contributing to developing is an understanding of Ifa through which one can enrich a broad range of disciplines. This is an understanding of Ifa as matrix, as inspirational centre, a mother giving birth to a child that is not identical with the mother though the child and the mother share vital links, a DNA of knowledge and identity, from Ifa to its inspiring manifestations in other disciplines.
This does not imply thinking only in terms of Ifa concepts and procedures. It implies expanding Ifa concepts and procedures to their maximum possiblity in relation to various issues and subjects, in dialogue with as broad a range of knowledge as possible from the entire conversation of knowledge on this planet, between humans and humans, betwen humans and non-humans.
Ifa is a system of knowedge that is centred in interaction between humans and non-humans, an interaction intimately related to the cultivation of a relationship with ase, a cosmic force that enables being and becoming and is exemplified by the mobility, transformative and unifying capacities of Esu.
Here we are, using a language developed in England, a style of essay writing taught to us by Euro-Americans, using a technology developed in the US.
Africans too, have developed systems of knowedge that can be universally applied at various levels. Its a mistake to think that the experience of existence evoked by the Yoruba/Orisa tradition concept of awo-mastery, the numinous, sacred knowledge-is unique to Ifa and olorisha. Ase, Awo, are also evident in Western knowledge. That does not prevent the West from making its knowledge available at various levels of accessibility.
Africans need to do the same. That will be part of our own contrbution to ourselves and to the universe.
The development of knowedge is a process of oscillation between previous knowedge and present inspiration. Are we able to define all possible sources of inspiration? What is that presence at my back as I compose words, a presence invisible and subtle, yet subtly persistent? An alter ego, a shadow unseen that flickers into existence when ideas begin to constellate? is this presence related to the idea of a transcedental core of self that is yet active in one's daily life, an emodiment of one's ultimate potential, known as ori in the Orisa tradition?
It is said that there is a babalawo in orun, the world of metaphysical origins, who inspires the creation of new ese ifa.
Where is orun, if it exists?
Is it a place, a state of being, a dimension?
Are we partially in orun depending on what action we engage in, depending on our state of mind?
Are the ancestors interested only in working with people training in the traditional Ifa manner or in anyone intereasted in taking Ifa forward?
Your response is the typical ignorant, arrogant and malicious european/eurocentric response to exposure of their ignorance and malice. That is precisely why no one will talk to ogberi like you and that is why you will remain ignorant and peddle your ignorance to your ilk. The world has begun to move forward without this pernicious european/eurocentric attitude. Knowledge is beyound the processes of eurocentric nonesense, which your mind so openly peddles. You are blind and you cannot see. Especially because it's even more obvious that you cannot see.In Yoruba, elders say abo oro l'a nso fun omoluwabi ... e.t.c. If you cannot understand that you are malicioulsy protraying your insiduous thought processes, then it is impossible for you to recognize that you are being told abo oro ... Wherever and from whoever you learnt the rudimentary Ifa you claim to have learnt, the whole profession cannot portray you as an example of success at the attempt to bring Ifa to the ignorant in this world.So, you can use your european/eurocentric thoughts all you want, you are still considered a terrorist to the knowledge of Olodumare that Ifa represents. You are the antithesis of Ire ... and your fakery is open to all to see.O.E.
To: NIgerianW...@yahoogroups.com
Cc: ifabukunmi adewale <adewura...@yahoo.com>; JOYCE ADEWUMI <nyac...@verizon.net>; Seyi Atanda <adey...@yahoo.com>; sheree funminire bryant <funm...@msn.com>; Antonio Castañeda <asyo...@cubarte.cult.cu>; Fayomi FaladeAworeniObafemi <Oya...@yahoo.com>; Nigerian Community & Friends <nigeri...@yahoo.com>; Sahib Hassan <sahib_...@yahoo.com>; bolaji idowu <bol...@yahoo.com>; adeyemi ifasesan <irosung...@yahoo.com>; Heru Shambe <omoab...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wed, January 26, 2011 12:02:27 PM
Subject: Re: [NIgerianWorldForum] Re: Oju orun to eiye fo lai fi iga gba iga! Help Translate : The sky is too vast for birds to fly without hitting each other
Rather than spend so much ink denouncing a point of view and not presenting what aspects of its contents are wrong,
STATE EXACTLY WHY
the other person's point of view is wrong,by comparing what you know with what the other person states and showing how the other person's point of view falls short of factual reality or superior insight.That is how to refute error and get your readers to recognize your superior knowledge.
I think I can understand why this attitude is assumed,though.It is the attitude of the person who revers a spiritual system and insists on seeing that system purely as an esoteric construct,without appreciating the fact that it is both exoteric and esoteric and that even the esoteric dimension is too subtle and complex to be accessible only by the traditional custodians.
To explain the meanings of these terms,vital as they are to the discussion,is something I ought to do from the onset, but I might try to do so as I proceed.Jesus sums up my perspective here 'The spirit blows where it listeth,and none knows whence it cometh or whither it goeth'.
Its easier to handle a critique when the critique is specific but Maximus critique is not. He has only made general statements of horror.Afis approach is more systematic and I should be able to address that more easily.
thanks
toyin
On 26 January 2011 13:54, <maxim...@yahoo.com> wrote:
The european thought process does not know that its delusion is that it thinks it knows all.Some have fallen into this deadly way and they don't even know it. European aristotelean ways of thinking are counter productive in a different thought system. Adepoju thinks his way of thinking is the way everyone needs to think. He is trying to force arguments that lead nowhere. All the while, he believes he is learning something and that only exposes his deep ignorance. But he wants to force everyone to follow his way of thinking. A very european kind of consciousness that has only led to the eradication of life on earth.Afis has tried to make him see, but how can a person who grew up in darkness understand light without first experiencing it? The problem is that light and dark do not mix together. Thus there is no hope for T.A. to understand that his oppositional defiant anti-social disorder is actually a disorder. He cannot have insight. He does not even realise that his attitudes are clear to see: He has absolutely no respect for the very beings he pretends to be "studying". He is treating Ifa like a subject (a guinea pig), just as his european masters (and their unknowing, unthinking surrogates) have taught him. A misseducated negro indeed, if educated he is. Unfortunately for him, his thought processes mark him out as the regular anti-Black, european: a danger to everything he touches with anything.Those who have ears ...O.E.
To: NIgerianW...@yahoogroups.com
Cc: ifabukunmi adewale <adewura...@yahoo.com>; JOYCE ADEWUMI <nyac...@verizon.net>; Seyi Atanda <adey...@yahoo.com>; sheree funminire bryant <funm...@msn.com>; Antonio Castañeda <asyo...@cubarte.cult.cu>; Fayomi FaladeAworeniObafemi <Oya...@yahoo.com>; Nigerian Community & Friends <nigeri...@yahoo.com>; Sahib Hassan <sahib_...@yahoo.com>; bolaji idowu <bol...@yahoo.com>; adeyemi ifasesan <irosung...@yahoo.com>; Heru Shambe <omoab...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wed, January 26, 2011 5:01:42 AM
Subject: Re: [NIgerianWorldForum] Re: Oju orun to eiye fo lai fi iga gba iga! Help Translate : The sky is too vast for birds to fly without hitting each other
Thanks.
The odu are 256 but their individual ese ifa are practically innumerable.The odu are like chapters and the ese ifa invidual texts in those chapters. The difference between this and written texts includes the fact that the odu are explicitly understood to embody a living cosmic force,ase,related to their identity as manifestations of Odu, the female counterpart of Orunmila,a force activated through ritual action.The ese ifa are practically innumerable because they have been developed over centuries, in different social contexts and are still being developed. One evidence of this development is in the relationship between the ese ifa and historical events, showing they emerged at different points in time. The owner of the Ifaocha online group, for example, develops his own ese ifa and posts on the group, although I need to be sure he sees them as ese ifa.Bolaji Idowu, in Olodumare: God in Yoruba Belief quotes an ese ifa about the birth of Jesus Christ, certainly developed after Christianity came to Yorubaland.Based on these observations ,I hold that ese ifa is a growing corpus.Why can Orunmila not be compared with anyone else? He either existed on earth, as the myths say,or he did not.He was either divine or was not.He is associated with a body of sacred knowledge. Those are all issues related to religious founders,from Jesus to Buddha.van Bimsbergen even argues that Ifa was developed through adaptation of Arabic geomancy. Whether that is true or not, is there any cultural development on earth that is not basded on something already developed?No religion known to me is not based on something that came before it.thankstoyin
On 26 January 2011 09:58, Ifagbenusola Atanda <atan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
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