Radio Silence

[Brian Brown-Cashdollar]

I'm hoping the nearly two months of no updates on iCloud syncing means BareBones is making real progress, and getting close to a solution. However, with so few updates, I've begun to become comfortable with 1Password, and beyond becoming comfortable, I truly appreciate their fully functional iOS apps. The Yojimbo iPad app, in addition to being read only has NEVER synced properly to my iPad. I've continued to keep duplicate databases in Yojimbo and 1Password, but it's getting to the point where that might end. I need a mac to mac sync that's reliable and the current workarounds requires too much user interaction. Please keep us updated and after two months I hope you're getting close. Otherwise, I'd look for other options and maybe even approach the folks at Omni to see if their forthcoming Omni Presence is available for licensing. Thanks.

[Patrick Woolsey]

At 10:12 -0800 02/03/2013, Brian Brown-Cashdollar wrote:
[...]

> Please keep us updated and after two months I hope you're getting close.
> Otherwise, I'd look for other options and maybe even approach the folks
> at Omni to see if their forthcoming Omni Presence is available for
> licensing. Thanks.

Though OmniPresence is an interesting option for document (file-based)
syncing, it unfortunately isn't suited to Yojimbo's needs.

We have however been keeping an eye out for any suitable alternatives.


Regards,

Patrick Woolsey
==
Bare Bones Software, Inc. <http://www.barebones.com/>

[Brian Brown-Cashdollar]

Thank you for your reply. Should I read into your reply that you're still struggling to get core data to work properly like everyone else? Because even though 1Password is slick and the iOS clients are useful, search and input in Yojimbo on the Mac is still far easier and quicker than 1Password.

Thanks

[Patrick Woolsey]

At 13:01 -0800 02/07/2013, Brian Brown-Cashdollar wrote:
>Thank you for your reply. Should I read into your reply that you're still
>struggling to get core data to work properly like everyone else?

That is indeed the case.

[Trevor Meier]

Patrick – have you seen Simperium? https://simperium.com It's the backend for Simplenote, a quickly-syncing app I've been using for a couple of years now. It seems more records-based which may be of use. They're also planning to release it under an MIT license (and were just acquired by Automattic, which bodes well I think).

[Patrick Woolsey]

At 10:03 -0800 03/04/2013, Trevor Meier wrote:
> Patrick - have you seen Simperium? https://simperium.com It's the backend

> for Simplenote, a quickly-syncing app I've been using for a couple of
> years now. It seems more records-based which may be of use. They're also
> planning to release it under an MIT license (and were just acquired by
> Automattic, which bodes well I think).

Yes, thanks, we are aware of Simperium, and it (like Wasabi) is in the
right ballpark though not capable today of serving as a drop-in replacement.

[rickdude]

For what it's worth, Simplenote regularly deletes notes or portions of notes on my iPad, and the developer had no idea what the problem might be, and no obvious mechanism to investigate more deeply, so I would be alarmed about Barebones or anyone else adopting it as their syncing engine. To be fair, I haven't contacted the developers since the takeover, so maybe they are making improvements.

2013年3月5日火曜日 3時03分59秒 UTC+9 Trevor Meier:

[mi...@pittelko.net]

Getting any closer to a solution?

[ittek]

Getting any closer to a solution?

 "more to say on the subject soon." 

Going nearly two months without anything is a little disconcerting. I suppose it's more political than practical. While I assume you all are working hard on this, two months is a long time to wait when the expectation is "soon". 

Perhaps there's nothing new to say; I fully realize that the last year of updates could essentially be boiled down to "iCloud sync sucks and we're still working out the kinks" but I feel that some kind of post once a month at least lets us really know you're all still alive out there. 

That said, I'm still holding out, but with almost a full year of waiting for a solution to materialize — one that seems like it's essentially just going to be a "yay, we made it work with iCloud" — it shouldn't be surprising that even the most patient individuals would be skeptical about what is happening. 

[John Chennells]

On 25 Mar 2013, at 0:49, mi...@pittelko.net wrote:

> Getting any closer to a solution?

This article was linked from John Gruber's Daring Fireball blog.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/3/26/4148628/why-doesnt-icloud-just-work

I'm sure the guys at Bare Bones are all too aware of the situation discussed.


Cheers

John

--

John Chennells
Direct: 01438 724010

--

[Johan™Strandberg]

Google uses an OT (Operational Transformation) based framework to support Google apps and Google Drive and this allows them simultaneous edits by many users of a single document. While instantaneous result may momentarily differ between clients, the document views as seen by all clients converge over time into a single stable view, often with seconds or minutes. The way they have implemented it, they allow each user to undo their independent edit stream and at the same time view and/or revert to earlier states of the combined document. 

OT is very powerful, but is based on a complex theoretical framework using transaction transformations. 

Apple has replicated some functionality for some of their applications by special casing the apps as to sidestep the trickier issues, but iCloud does not appear to have the theoretical underpinnings to solve the general case for all users. (Such a goal might sound lofty, but if you have enough users, every rare edge-case becomes commonplace.)

I suspect Apple wandered down an object oriented path thinking they could fix problems as they went along, but as far as I know, there is no simple object based equivalent to OT (or the related theories). Yes, you can build OT on top of an object model, but it just means you implement a non-object model using objects. This is neither easy nor efficient — but may be the only way to make iCloud work today.

I don't expect any future version of iCloud to provide a robust solution, and I have recommended that companies like Bare Bones implement an abstract model of synchronization that can then be hosted on anything from a simple file system — such as Dropbox or a Network Storage System — up to more advanced models such as iCloud and Google Drive. 

This is not too hard to do for a straight forward store such as Yojimbo where you can avoid the more complex issues. This abstract layer should focus on simplicity, robustness, and state recovery when the underlying media is corrupted. This is quite doable.

This would avoid wasting effort and opportunity on iCloud while still being able to use what is there, and what works. It would also protect Bare Bones when Apple inevitably re-structures iCloud to yet again attempt to address the problem. (This is always the way Apple solves these problems. I worked in Apple engineering for many years so I have experienced it many times.)

--j

PS  I have been working on these kind of problems since the mid 1980's, so I know how nasty a problem Bare Bones have. I just wish they would try for a solution that does not tie their fate to the details of Apple's internal synchronization model (should it some day even work).

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[Terry J Fundak]

Here here!

Thank you for bring the issue to a key issue which is also in my opinion, the edge case which 90% of tech support and disappointment occurs. 

I believe Apple is fully in the driver's seat and I believe Apple is doing it Apple's way come hell or high water. I believe Apple is wrong 1) to hidden the problems 2) to not fully provide the necessarily help to developers 3) to pretend that they have it under control. 

I have all but begging BB to be more forthcoming and ask for help and get help. I believe the way Yojimbo comes back from the half dead that it is for me is to move to the views you have so nicely layed out and determine independent of Apple the best path forward.

I am so frustrated the Yojimbo cannot do what it used to for me - It was truly a great product that all but died for me when MobileMe went light out last year in June.

Please BB. Hear the call! and let us know you are in fact moving on, make genuine progress or what the plan and genuinely promisable promise is around Yojimbo. We arenow approaching a year since MobileMe light's out.

Terry

_______________________________________

Terry J Fundak
Infrastructure Engineer
Network Design and Security Solutions for SMBs
Tech Support - Client and Server Systems

TJSoftworks
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[Bill Rowe]

On 3/26/13 at 10:55 PM, jl...@hitman.co.uk (John Chennells) wrote:

>On 25 Mar 2013, at 0:49, mi...@pittelko.net wrote:

>>Getting any closer to a solution?

>This article was linked from John Gruber's Daring Fireball blog.

>http://www.theverge.com/2013/3/26/4148628/why-doesnt-icloud-just-
>work

>I'm sure the guys at Bare Bones are all too aware of the situation
>discussed.

It is very clear Bare Bones is very aware of the issues. See
Rich's post at

<http://rms2.tumblr.com/post/46505165521/the-gathering-storm-our-travails-with-icloud-sync>