Proposal for TDs and Artist - Expand Softimage ( and other ) tools

[Nicolas Esposito]

Hi guys,

This is maybe not the best time to write about this, but maybe something good could be done about this idea.

Looking around si-community and here as well I saw a lot of topics regarding "How to" and "Help me with" in order to achieve a goal.

This is perfectly fine and on both communities there are lots of talented people willing to give advices, share compounds and make tutorials about it.

There are some specific things which are not so simple to develop, and most of the time you can't get the thing you're doing to work, so you end up going nowhere, or switch to another software you know already do what you're looking for ( if there is one ).

So, with this in mind my proposal is quite "simple":

Setup small found raise groups, using kickstarter, in order to finance a TD or a talented artist to develop a custom tool which allows you to reach your ( ours ) goal.

The TD look at the request, setup the minimum amount on money needed to develop that tool, then the fund raise campaign begin.

Lets start with an example

- A muscle system within Softimage: Most of you saw the Peta commercial and the behind the scene and saw the amazing thing The Mill did using Softimage; also recently Paul Smith did a demo of his muscle system which looks pretty damn cool; Vorlex developed his plugin using ICE, and those are just few examples.

- VFX done with ICE: Exocortex already sells amazing plugins, but lets say I need specific VFX in my shot and I need someone who's capable to create what I need.

To put it simple would be the answer to "I don't know how to do this, can someone do this for me if I pay?"

The found raising could be applied not only to Softimage ( even because I'm not sure how many TDs want to create tools for a Software which is going to be left out in a couple of years ), but extend this idea to other software, for example Fabric Engine, which has huge potentials and lots of people right now are really interested into this framework.

So, what are your thoughts about it?

Cheers

Nicolas

[Nika Ragua]

i`m very interested - because i somehow not damanded as i wish to be ))) ahahaha

and i love to do this kind of stuff, yet i`m visual programming limited - do not want to mess with code - so ICE, VEX, FE when they do it.

aaah, better late than never 

[Arman Sernaz]

In order to keep things well organized, a special web site which is dedicated for this purpose may be a good idea. I'm willing to contribute as much as I can to kickstart this project.

--
www.lhvfx.com

[olivier jeannel]

The idea is fantastic. Though, I think asking this directly to Eric Mootz or Leonard Koch is already possible (if I'm not totaly wrong)

[Nicolas Esposito]

Yes, I thought that they might accept specific workflow tools and I think that many artists do that as well ( kind of TD for hiring temporarely )

The main focus would be to do that not as a single element, but the request would be asked ( and founded ) by a group of people who are interested in some specific tools

The TD would be happy so will we :-)

[Paul Doyle]

Just FYI we have a muscle system coming for Fabric in the next couple of months and it will be accessible via the Splice API within Softimage and will be customizable/extensible.

[Nicolas Esposito]

I just crapped my pants :-D

[Angus Davidson]

We are an excitable bunch ;)

This communication is intended for the addressee only. It is confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately and destroy the original message. You may not copy or disseminate this communication without the permission of the University. Only authorised signatories are competent to enter into agreements on behalf of the University and recipients are thus advised that the content of this message may not be legally binding on the University and may contain the personal views and opinions of the author, which are not necessarily the views and opinions of The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. All agreements between the University and outsiders are subject to South African Law unless the University agrees in writing to the contrary.

[Nicolas Esposito]

Indeed ;-)

[pet...@skynet.be]

Hi Paul

 

I secretly hope you have confcalls or chats with the other 3rd party developers ( you know who you are ), about the recent announcement and changes it will cause – testing the waters if there is some positive initiative that could come out of this. It’s a bleak outlook long term, but perhaps also an opportunity short to mid term?

 

I imagine many users are going to be moving – but some are going to dig trenches, and stay on (the last stable version of) Softimage for while and beef it up all they can. Crowd funding, people looking to 3rd party initiatives to extend the lifetime of Softimage.

Perhaps using a non-evolving Softimage as front-end / host application for evolving technologies – almost like keeping the beloved interface, but little by little replacing the guts with external tech. If anyone I guess Fabric are best placed to think along those terms. Care to comment?

 

 

 

 

 

From: Paul Doyle

Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 2:11 PM

To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

Subject: Re: Proposal for TDs and Artist - Expand Softimage ( and other ) tools

 

[Greg Punchatz]

I like the idea, I was thinking along the same lines but much BIGGER. Let's kick the shit of Autodesk at their own game...3d development.  

I think we should set up this has a PUBLIC challenge, us agasinst Autodesk Maya dev team, in a development death match. Thinking this would go much further in showing Autodesk what an incredible mistake it made by killing Softimage. Release after release... we will kick their fucking ass.

Here is what I don't really think Autodesk really understands.... Softimage and particularly Ice allows you to develop features that are production ready to the public a much faster rate than you can in any of other full Dcc applications they own.

I never understood why there wasn't a huge effort to create new tools with ice and after it had matured a bit. I was really hoping for an ice version of face robot, as it was not so linear... the idea of face robot is great.. but picking session is brilliant, but things can get terribly linear after that point on with no real way to fix what's under the hood.

So this really is my challenge--- to the user base and developers. We set up a kickstarter campaign or something to raise money to help out develop Maya...

Show it for what it is, an aging dinosaur that's about to become fossilized.

First off is a kick starter the right way to go? How do we get the money from a single kickstarter into the hands of multiple developers ? Ideally I would like to see something that benefits all Softimage users to contribute to the user build... it could be a single workgroup that we all share. I know that there a lot of plug-ins already that are very useful, but sometimes getting organized workgroup of all the latest and greatest core tools is difficult .

I have 1 million ideas of what needs to be done, but I have no idea what it's capable with the current SDK . I'm sure everybody else has their list as well.

We need BIG shiny features... as well as taking care of anything we can that will keep Softimage viable for years to come.

Is it possible that any of the big studios would consider releasing some of their tools to the Softimage community? I've heard and seen some of these tools in action , if we could get something going quick enough we would already have a far more impressive release and what is most likely coming from Maya. These tools for your competitive advantage, but not as much Softimage is. My suggestion is wherever it makes sense for us to share our scripts and plug-ins that have already been developed into the community for the greater good of Softimage. Softimage is definitely my competitive advantage, and as a community we can make it even more so.

To the TDs and developers out there, would it be possible for us to implement UDIM support? Arnold seems to have no issues with it, but I really need to be able to see my multi-patched textures in OpenGL. I know there were no plans to port fabric engine's real-time viewport solution to Softimage , but I for one would love to see that implemented , and I am sure its extensible enough to handle multi-UV patch naming conventions. My dollars are on the table for FE anytime they develop a tool I can use.

This one goes to Pooby, sir I think it is time for us all to send your money ... but you need start sharing that muscle technology you're working on.. I sent you 100 bucks for fuzz .... I will send you a lot more for your most... I know it's your competitive the advantage .. but so is Softimage . And that there is some folks out here on the development side that can turn your beautiful rigging development into easy to use tool sets and interfaces that could push it to the next level.

Paul there are several things I would love for you to be in charge of development , a face robot that doesn't pollute your scene with the face robot virus ... one that is nonlinear .

I have recently seen an amazing auto rigger from the good folks over at elementX... I would love to see this released the public as well, but we really should do side-by-side comparisons and release the best auto rigger of the bunch... and standardized around that one.

I know Mill has the craziest feather system ever devised... I'm sure Psyop has many fantastic tools and shaders, my question to everybody is does it make sense to sit on these anymore? Or would it do each one of these companies more good to participate in creating a better product for the near future?

Here are some other things that I know needs some work from where I sit...

Paint effects type solutions.. with the interface to match . Scatter tools are great , but having something with a great set of presets .

We need a marvelous designer type clothing simulator inside of Softimage.... but without the nonsense that comes with trying to work inside a silly program.

City builders and terrain builders are two things that I desperately need...

For love of god would someone add relative cycles to the mixer.... I know the work around...but this is softimage.. if I wanted to work around I would be a Maya user.

There a lot of good hair solutions, but there's not a lot of great shaders at the out into the wild. I know that people are sitting on some of those on this very list. Not that the hair solutions are perfect in any way, I would love for somebody to come up with a best of both worlds solution for hair styling and simulation. It can be node based, but has to be able to be groomed by hand. Years ago I saw a Microsoft research video on or hierarchal hairstyling that blew me away.

Ironically, to reach this part of the note I received a call from Autodesk, asking me to renew my suit support. I am still debating whether this makes sense.... I really think I would rather send all my developer friends money... plus a lot more if they develop the tools I need.

I would not have known where to begin to make this happen... but wanted to start a conversation. Let's make our own Softimage 2015 - Userbuild. I am in at 1500 dollars TODAY if we can get such a thing going... I will also be happy to make demo content for our release videos that we release at the same time AD does there's...We need to blow them AWAY...and as I said before it needs to be HYPED in all the right places... If for the next few years we outshine AD internal dev teams by joing together as a unified force maybe a new regime will move into AD and see the light, if not we just gave ourselves a better program to get our jobs done.

So apparently some of us are optimistic fools... but so was Walt Disney. No one believed to make the first animated feature movie... and he did. No one believed in his dream of building a Magic Kingdom California... and he did. everyone scoffed at the giant plans for Walt Disney World smack, dabb middle of a swamp.. and he did... he he spent his fortune and a lot of other peoples money to make these dreams come true... at first the investors were terrified , but this man was going to succeed. He just knew no other option... he knew he needed to make something great.'s make something great...

We need to do the same... with or without Autodesk's help. We have a much better chance of making this happen if we join forces commit money and/or own personal time to make this thing happen.

This song sums it up.. Written by Mike Peters of the Alarm from a hospital bed, with kemo flowing into his body.....not only beating cancer x2, but then going on to start the worlds biggest Rock and Roll cancer charity..and climbing MT Everest..among many others as fund raisers.  If some one man can do that we can save our freaking software...even if we do it our selves.

Fight back-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot26NBjxins

[Stephen Davidson]

I actually used this list, to hire a TD, for a project that I was working on. I had not learned any ICE,

and I was in no way a programmer, so I put out a request, on this list, for anyone who could TD the project

for me. I got a fast response from Jimmy Gass. It was a project that required a crowd of people,

within an stadium, all made from 12 characters with 10 different texturemapped  clothes.

This was prior to the addition of  Crowd FX to SI. It all worked out great. 

Jimmy did a great job programming the ICE compound so that all I had to do was 

create the 10 different texturemaps per character. and plug them into

the custom ICE compound, that Jimmy wrote.

No crowd funding was needed, as it was funded by my client ( 50% deposit before the job starts).

I bet there are many Softimage freelancers, or small animation companies, that do not have

TD experience, that would benefit from any of the TD's here, as well. I just don't know how

much work is available, since I have only had to do this once, and I have learned how to

put together simple ICE compounds, myself, with the help of so many tutorials, such the 

great ones from Paul Smith...

Yes, that muscle system is an impressive demo.

From what I understand, FabricEngine's Splice will be the way to go for programming for Softimage, Maya, and other 3D

Apps, so that development of plugins (or addons, or whatever) would easily be ported to other apps.

--

Best Regards,
  Stephen P. Davidson 
       (954) 552-7956
    sdav...@3Danimationmagic.com

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic

                                                                             - Arthur C. Clarke

[Nicolas Esposito]

For me the main problem is still that AD would never sell Softimage to anyone, because they know they fucked it up, and they know for sure if SideFX or The Foundry will buy Soft, they will literally kick out Maya and Max in a couple of years.

Regarding the subscription renewal I completely agree with you, I'd rather invest that money for custom tools, instead of giving my money to AD, so that developers would gladly build those tools and get paid...and thats why I think that the "share for free" would be a kick in the nuts for those who developed the custom tools that they use in Softimage.

Greg, how much time and development you guys spent on developing the "Janimation HeadTech" demo/character? looks like Facerobot, but I suppose that is heavily modified together with ICE in order to achieve the deformation technology.

Thoat is something I would pay to have, together with the muscle systema that the guys at Fabric engine are developing, or what Paul Smith did, or an upgrade to the plugins from Exocortex or LK.

I really would like to show my appreciation to those guys, and together with others I think that we could give them the possibility to get their money for the time they spent developing what they did, and for more future tools if they want to.

I thought about kickstarter, but could be something different as well.....in general something to keep track of those who contribuite to the donation, then share the tools with them.

It would be highly unfair from my point of view to share those tools with everyone who uses Softimage, because at this point it'll just be free stuff paid by 20-30-40 people.

Maybe, when Softimage will eventually die, some of the studios who developed the tools will share them for free, but who knows

[Arman Sernaz]

My studio is planning to keep using Softimage and doing researchs with Fabric Engine as long as I'm not convinced that I can do better with the rest.

--
www.lhvfx.com

[Leonard Koch]

Yeah Olivier, I think that is how bothj Eric's emTopolizer and my LK Fabric came about.

If we could set something like you guys are suggesting up it would be amazing.

There is nothing I'd rather do than build tools for the community all day.

[Cristobal Infante]

there had been discussion of the same thing in Si-community:

http://www.si-community.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4947

I think it's a good idea of developers are up for it and there is demand for the tool.

[Nicolas Esposito]

Didn't notice ;-)