OT: nice deformer tool for Maya

adrian wyer

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Mar 24, 2011, 7:06:17 AM3/24/11

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Achievable In ICE with some thought, I’m sure….

a

Adrian Wyer
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ureche octavian

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Mar 24, 2011, 7:22:25 AM3/24/11

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loved the first fstretch, and i'm gonna love this one even more.

i have to say, there's some awesome rigging stuff for maya out there,

that's helping peeps alot with character related work. (yours truly included).

(kickstand's stretchmesh and now lbrush also come to mind)

i remember a post around here, about better deformation workflows in xsi,

and i've been toying around with lbrush this last weeked, and let me say

it puts the anisculpt stuff to shame...and some. I think it's still free, so for anyone

with access to maya, you should try it. (http://www.lbrush.com)

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Mirko Jankovic

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Mar 24, 2011, 7:38:30 AM3/24/11

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nice.. I wanna have this for SI!. like now ;))

Juhani Karlsson

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Mar 24, 2011, 8:18:19 AM3/24/11

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That is very nice!
Probably possible to do in ICE but who is going to make it and SHARE it? : )

2011/3/24 Mirko Jankovic <mirko.j...@aeonproduction.com>

Helge Mathee

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Mar 24, 2011, 8:23:09 AM3/24/11

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Jeremie! Eric! Somebody.. or even me... who knows.

Paul Griswold

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Mar 24, 2011, 8:27:00 AM3/24/11

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I would seriously love something that was much more cartoonist friendly. This looked cool, but the whole duplicating two additional meshes business seemed to really slow things down.

Paul

Eric Thivierge

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Mar 24, 2011, 9:01:30 AM3/24/11

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You could probably get away from that by creating to shape nodes and storing the shapes in those shape nodes to compare against.

--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
Technical Director
http://www.ethivierge.com

Edy Susanto

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Mar 24, 2011, 9:03:40 AM3/24/11

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very cool.
Feel like doing deformation research again....
would be nice to know how to calculate the procedural folds based on the
stretch direction.

On 3/24/2011 7:06 PM, adrian wyer wrote:
> http://vimeo.com/21317049
>

> Achievable In ICE with some thought, Iï¿½m sureï¿½.

>
> a
>
> Adrian Wyer
> Fluid Pictures
> 75-77 Margaret St.
> London
> W1W 8SY
> ++44(0) 207 850 0829

> adria...@fluid-pictures.com <mailto:adria...@fluid-pictures.com>
> www.fluid-pictures.com <http://www.fluid-pictures.com>

Stefan Kubicek

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Mar 24, 2011, 9:11:25 AM3/24/11

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I'm not a big fan of additional reference meshes either. I think if you don't need super fine control you could probably also define stretching and bulging with a simple weight maps instead of those additional meshes.

It makes me kind of sad how many such solutions are coming out these days and I never get the time to implement one myself. I've been having the
exact same thing sitting on my todo-list for over six years now, and I never get around to finally start working on it. It just sits there and stares at me,
and I never had a job that called for it either. Especially now with ICE it's so much more simple, but whatever, I guess one just can't do everything :-(

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Eric Thivierge

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Mar 24, 2011, 9:16:58 AM3/24/11

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What if we pay you? :)

--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
Technical Director
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Stefan Kubicek

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Mar 24, 2011, 9:20:34 AM3/24/11

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Judging by his first video, it looks like the folds need to be modeled.
The other smaller folds that appear on the sphere he keeps demoing look like a byproduct of the algorithm due to mesh topology or the way the squash/stretchmap
is calculated. He shows a bit later in the video how to smooth that out.

> very cool.
> Feel like doing deformation research again....
> would be nice to know how to calculate the procedural folds based on the
> stretch direction.
>
>
> On 3/24/2011 7:06 PM, adrian wyer wrote:
>> http://vimeo.com/21317049
>>

>> Achievable In ICE with some thought, I’m sure….

>>
>> a
>>
>> Adrian Wyer
>> Fluid Pictures
>> 75-77 Margaret St.
>> London
>> W1W 8SY
>> ++44(0) 207 850 0829
>> adria...@fluid-pictures.com <mailto:adria...@fluid-pictures.com>
>> www.fluid-pictures.com <http://www.fluid-pictures.com>
>>
>> Fluid Pictures Limited is registered in England and Wales.
>> Company number:5657815
>> VAT number: 872 6893 71
>>
>

Fabricio Chamon

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Mar 24, 2011, 9:59:38 AM3/24/11

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This is awesome!!
Does this kind of deformation/stretch algorithm is based on any paper
we can have access to ? or is it internal research?
I definitely want to have a deeper read on the subject.

Edy Susanto

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Mar 24, 2011, 10:33:46 AM3/24/11

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The Grid demo where he pulls the point from different direction looks
interesting though. Which made me think the wrinkle if procedural.

"""
Plane With Direction:
- 3 Sculpted Meshes Driven by fStretch.
- Tension base deformations & Direction feature were used with the plug-in.
"""

but... let me think again.. may be he just uses the angle of the edges
on each point to control which shape to use... which explains the "3
Sculpted Meshes" part as the demo video only shows exactly 3 directions.

-edy

Jeremie Passerin

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Mar 24, 2011, 11:40:50 AM3/24/11

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Didn't you work on something similar Edy ?

the es_skinSystem ? http://sawamura.neorack.com/research.html

I'd love to work on something like this too.

Stefan Kubicek

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Mar 24, 2011, 12:21:53 PM3/24/11

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Yeah, I just saw that one. Intersting, he uses the UV space to determine the stretch direction.
Not 100% sure if this is 100% clever.
First of all you need UV's.
Secondly you need to lay those UV's out in quite a uniform way to be able to get predictable results. Or so I think.
Maybe using the local vertex coordinate system is better to determine the direction of deformation, but im just making an assumption here.

Jeremie Passerin

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Mar 25, 2011, 1:26:55 PM3/25/11

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http://www.xsibase.com/forum/index.php?board=34;action=display;threadid=44693;start=0

On 25 March 2011 18:26, Jeremie Passerin <gere...@gmail.com> wrote:

http://www.xsibase.com/forum/index.php?board=34;action=display;threadid=44693;start=0

On 25 March 2011 02:25, Edy Susanto <edysus...@gmail.com> wrote:
yes, but the fold is painted by weightmap instead of sculpted.
that one is before ICE and it's really basic push and smooth based on geometry tension packed into one operator. The direction feature on the fstretch demo would be a nice addition to it :)
I've recently do another simple tension driven deformation in ICE by simply storing the total neighbor's length on each point on once ice tree before envelope deformation and create another ice tree after envelope to compare the current length with the stored one and use it to drive the shape. it works well :)

oh, thank you for sharing Gear, Jeremie :)

-edy

On 3/24/2011 11:40 PM, Jeremie Passerin wrote:

Didn't you work on something similar Edy ?
the es_skinSystem ? http://sawamura.neorack.com/research.html

<http://sawamura.neorack.com/research.html>I'd love to work on something
like this too.

On 24 March 2011 15:33, Edy Susanto <edysus...@gmail.com

<mailto:adria...@fluid-pictures.com

Edy Susanto

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Mar 25, 2011, 1:42:49 PM3/25/11

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well a compound is better than thousands of words heheheh :)

On 3/26/2011 1:26 AM, Jeremie Passerin wrote:
> http://www.xsibase.com/forum/index.php?board=34;action=display;threadid=44693;start=0
>
>
> On 25 March 2011 18:26, Jeremie Passerin <gere...@gmail.com

> <mailto:gere...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> http://www.xsibase.com/forum/index.php?board=34;action=display;threadid=44693;start=0
> <http://www.xsibase.com/forum/index.php?board=34;action=display;threadid=44693;start=0>
>
> On 25 March 2011 02:25, Edy Susanto <edysus...@gmail.com

> <mailto:edysus...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> yes, but the fold is painted by weightmap instead of sculpted.
> that one is before ICE and it's really basic push and smooth
> based on geometry tension packed into one operator. The
> direction feature on the fstretch demo would be a nice addition
> to it :)
> I've recently do another simple tension driven deformation in
> ICE by simply storing the total neighbor's length on each point
> on once ice tree before envelope deformation and create another
> ice tree after envelope to compare the current length with the
> stored one and use it to drive the shape. it works well :)
>
> oh, thank you for sharing Gear, Jeremie :)
>
> -edy
>
>
> On 3/24/2011 11:40 PM, Jeremie Passerin wrote:
>
> Didn't you work on something similar Edy ?
> the es_skinSystem ? http://sawamura.neorack.com/research.html
>
> <http://sawamura.neorack.com/research.html>I'd love to work
> on something
> like this too.
>
>
>
> On 24 March 2011 15:33, Edy Susanto <edysus...@gmail.com
> <mailto:edysus...@gmail.com>

> <mailto:edysus...@gmail.com

> Achievable In ICE with some thought, Iï¿½m sureï¿½.

Alan Fregtman

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Mar 25, 2011, 5:10:29 PM3/25/11

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Alternatively, you can just use the TensionMap compound to drive
blending of wrinkly normalmaps, then you don't need 2 meshes.

On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Edy Susanto <edysus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> well a compound is better than thousands of words heheheh :)
>
> On 3/26/2011 1:26 AM, Jeremie Passerin wrote:
>>
>>
>> http://www.xsibase.com/forum/index.php?board=34;action=display;threadid=44693;start=0
>>
>>
>> On 25 March 2011 18:26, Jeremie Passerin <gere...@gmail.com
>> <mailto:gere...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>

>> ï¿½http://www.xsibase.com/forum/index.php?board=34;action=display;threadid=44693;start=0
>>
>> ï¿½<http://www.xsibase.com/forum/index.php?board=34;action=display;threadid=44693;start=0>
>>
>> ï¿½ ï¿½On 25 March 2011 02:25, Edy Susanto <edysus...@gmail.com
>> ï¿½ ï¿½<mailto:edysus...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½yes, but the fold is painted by weightmap instead of sculpted.
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½that one is before ICE and it's really basic push and smooth
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½based on geometry tension packed into one operator. The
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½direction feature on the fstretch demo would be a nice addition
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½to it :)
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½I've recently do another simple tension driven deformation in
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ICE by simply storing the total neighbor's length on each point
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½on once ice tree before envelope deformation and create another
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ice tree after envelope to compare the current length with the
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½stored one and use it to drive the shape. it works well :)
>>
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½oh, thank you for sharing Gear, Jeremie :)
>>
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½-edy
>>
>>
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½On 3/24/2011 11:40 PM, Jeremie Passerin wrote:
>>
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½Didn't you work on something similar Edy ?
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½the es_skinSystem ? http://sawamura.neorack.com/research.html
>>
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½<http://sawamura.neorack.com/research.html>I'd love to work
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½on something
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½like this too.
>>
>>
>>
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½On 24 March 2011 15:33, Edy Susanto <edysus...@gmail.com
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½<mailto:edysus...@gmail.com>
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½<mailto:edysus...@gmail.com
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½<mailto:edysus...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½The Grid demo where he pulls the point from different
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½direction
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½looks interesting though. Which made me think the
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½wrinkle if procedural.
>>
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½"""
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½Plane With Direction:
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½- 3 Sculpted Meshes Driven by fStretch.
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½- Tension base deformations & Direction feature were
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½used with the
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½plug-in.
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½"""
>>
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½but... let me think again.. may be he just uses the
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½angle of the
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½edges on each point to control which shape to use...
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½which explains
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½the "3 Sculpted Meshes" part as the demo video only
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½shows exactly 3
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½directions.
>>
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½-edy
>>
>>
>>
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½On 3/24/2011 9:20 PM, Stefan Kubicek wrote:
>>
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½Judging by his first video, it looks like the folds
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½need to be
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½modeled.
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½The other smaller folds that appear on the sphere he
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½keeps
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½demoing look
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½like a byproduct of the algorithm due to mesh
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½topology or the
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½way the
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½squash/stretchmap
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½is calculated. He shows a bit later in the video how
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½to smooth
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½that out.
>>
>>
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½very cool.
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½Feel like doing deformation research again....
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½would be nice to know how to calculate the
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½procedural folds
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½based on the
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½stretch direction.
>>
>>
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½On 3/24/2011 7:06 PM, adrian wyer wrote:
>>
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½http://vimeo.com/21317049
>>
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½Achievable In ICE with some thought, Iï¿½m sureï¿½.
>>
>> ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½ ï¿½a
>>
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Raffaele Fragapane

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Mar 28, 2011, 12:22:33 AM3/28/11

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I was under the impression it's ultimately based on some models to describe the wrinkled states, and then it does some fairly simple work to blend and equalise things in.

AFAIK it's not a procedural wrinkling system where you can input fracture lines (let alone variable ones) and expect coherent wrinkling coming out the other end, it's a stretch deformer based on barycentric coordinates that can modulate some user input, most of which slightly labour intensive (models, UVs), and suffers for the usual strength and weaknesses of such systems (controllable but requires artist input, can have boundary issues etc.)

Somebody who's actually used it first hand might know otherwise though, the above is all going by a colleague who was testing it and showing me some stuff.

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Serguei Kalentchouk

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Mar 28, 2011, 2:24:55 PM3/28/11

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Raffaele, you're essentially correct. This is not a procedural system
and requires a lot of user input. One of the bigger shortcomings when
it comes to character work is that the shapes need to be sculpted in
the rest pose, making it difficult to hit the desired result. From
this point of view a good PSD system is a far better choice, and you
can always use a tension map as an input driver into a PSD system if
you so choose. That said, it's still a pretty useful tool to have at
your disposal.

--
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