Managing render settings...

[Eric Lampi]

I don't want to get off on a rant here, but the way you set your render settings is a lot more complicated now, and it doesn't need to be.

I can see the value of having global settings, but the interface is really difficult to understand the rationale.  For example, why is aliasing min/max and sampling on a different page than the sample filter, type?  They are dependant on one another, so why split them up??

Does motion blur really need 3 places to set values?  Scene MB is set on the scene render options page, pass motion blur is enabled on the pass page, then finally, motion blur sampling contrast, steps shutter are set in the renderer options.

Seems to me that having one page with options set apart from one another as global and local to a pass could be simply done by some kind of color coding instead.

There's some good stuff, I like the way naming and location are set now with filters, that makes much more sense, but it's overall taken a step back as far as I am concerned.

Am I alone here on this?  I know it's been a topic of frustration for a number of people I've worked with.  There was nothing wrong with the render settings in previous versions, it needed some additions but I don't understand why the whole thing was re-worked into something so... awkward.

E

 

Freelance 3-D Animator, F/X Artist

[Kris Rivel]

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one.  While I agree that there is definitely room for some improvement, I find the new render manager setup quite refreshing in general.  I agree that things like sample filtering and aliasing being combined onto one page but for the most part, I quite like the new look.  I will admit it took me some time to get used to but now I absolutely hate setting up renders in v5 which I'm stuck doing now for this current project.

Kris

[Andi Farhall]

I ranted about this when i first looked at 6, much better control with the local global thing but a really messy implementation of it that is a backward step in time saving terms instead of the time saver it's supposed to be. I can only assume they didnt have time to do any work on the layout of it so i'm hoping that the next point release will have this sorted.  Having said that 6 or 6.01 is the first release of xsi since 2 that i haven't jumped on and used straight away, it just makes me nervous...

 

 

A.

-----Original Message-----
From: owne...@Softimage.COM [mailto:owne...@Softimage.COM]On Behalf Of Eric Lampi
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 7:27 PM
To: X...@Softimage.COM
Subject: Managing render settings...

I don't want to get off on a rant here, but the way you set your render settings is a lot more complicated now, and it doesn't need to be.

I can see the value of having global settings, but the interface is really difficult to understand the rationale.  For example, why is aliasing min/max and sampling on a different page than the sample filter, type?  They are dependant on one another, so why split them up??

Does motion blur really need 3 places to set values?  Scene MB is set on the scene render options page, pass motion blur is enabled on the pass page, then finally, motion blur sampling contrast, steps shutter are set in the renderer options.

Seems to me that having one page with options set apart from one another as global and local to a pass could be simply done by some kind of color coding instead.

There's some good stuff, I like the way naming and location are set now with filters, that makes much more sense, but it's overall taken a step back as far as I am concerned.

Am I alone here on this?  I know it's been a topic of frustration for a number of people I've worked with.  There was nothing wrong with the render settings in previous versions, it needed some additions but I don't understand why the whole thing was re-worked into something so... awkward.

E

 

Freelance 3-D Animator, F/X Artist

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[Kris Rivel]

The setup in v6.01 is much better than in v6.  If you haven't spent much time using it, I would recommend really giving it a chance.  It doesn't sound like you've used v6 in production very much if at all.  I've been using v6 for awhile now on several projects and I've really gotten used to the new render setup.  I don't know...maybe I'm alone on this but I do like it better than v5.

Kris

[Steven Caron]

your not alone..

i think its just so different that people are having trouble with it.

[Byron Nash]

I'll chip in here too. I have been enjoying the new global setting a lot. It was confusing at first but now that I know where things are I find it easier to get my file names and output frames set correctly without a lot of work. The tokens for the file name are a blessing.

On 6/19/07, Kris Rivel <kris...@gmail.com> wrote:

--
Byron Nash
www.armoredsquirrel.com

[Kris Rivel]

I really like how XSI creates the folder structure for you as well if it doesn't exist already.

Kris

[Andre DeAngelis]

OK I know that I’m not the only sucker that has come across this problem, but I was wandering if anyone has had any luck dealing with Models (reference models) that refuse to be deleted.  I have 12 characters in a scene, so I don’t fancy starting from scratch and creating a new one and re-importing the assets etc.

 

Anyone know why XSI (5.11) does this and how to deal with it?

 

Andre

 

[Kris Rivel]

That's what I thought as well.  We all get accustomed to doing something one way and then when its radically altered, we all freak out a bit.  This is how I was for about 1 or 2 weeks using the Render Manager.

Kris

[Steven Caron]

well the render manager is just a plugin to pull it all together. i have actually not used the manager much at all...

if we can identify the exact issues people are having i think softimage will listen. if we just whine and say "we dont like the new way". we get no where.

[Greg Punchatz]

I HATED IT!!!!! The first time I tried to send a render in 6 I about flipped out.

But.... now I love  it! Saves me TONS of work.

Just takes time.

As far as not jumping on version 6, having some instability is expected when you recode so many BIG things. I personally am glad they did, we needed those deep core fixes very badly.
6.01 is a lot better and I am sure the next point release will do even more to shore up some weak areas.



Greg Punchatz
Janimation Sr. Creative Director

[Todd Alan Peleg]

ok.. for whats its worth.. i'll chip in here..

byrons statement sounds a lot about what has angered me about xsi particles... if you use them enough.. you start to understand the logic of where things are and you can move thru them quite fast.. but its not because they are set up better... its because you've learned how to stop going where you THINK things should be.. and just memorizing.. its like you spend a while FIGHTING the order... then finally you submit.. and it isn't really better.. but you've learned it..

so.. i haven't really used the render manager thing yet.. but.. it sounds like its not logically setup..but once you learn where everything is.. you can get thru it easier..but if thats the case.. i understand eric's point.. and completely agree as well..while there are some great features.. if they aren't logical... then its not really easy.. its just learning where the buttons are...

like the motionblur settings.... seems like there are at least 3 different places to set motionblur for a scene....that isn't logical...


todd

[Bernard Lebel]

Not sure it's going to work, but you could to 1-make the model local
and delete it, and 2-merge this scene into a new one and try to remove
the model.

Bernard

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[Byron Nash]

Todd, I don't think I just "got used to" the new settings. I genuinely feel like they save me time. I do agree with everyone about certain settings being spread out over multiple pages. That should be corrected. The parts I do like are the global settings for all passes and not having to manually enter pass filenames any more. That saves me a ton of re-rendering and fixes.

--
Byron Nash
www.armoredsquirrel.com

[Steven Caron]

"like the motionblur settings.... seems like there are at least 3 different places to set motionblur for a scene....that isn't logical..."

but its not 3 different places to set the blur settings. they each have a specific purpose.

in 5 you would setup your defaults in one pass and duplicate from this pass. tweaking each pass if needed.if a single option for a pass needs to be changed, you inspect its options and change it.

ultimately you do the same thing now. instead of making a master/default pass you just have them as a "global" option. then if a single pass needs adjustments, your override the global settings and change it on the pass level.

if you need to revert back, one check box and your back to the scene options. two ppg up copying and pasting values back and forth.

steven

On 6/19/07, Todd Alan Peleg <to...@theholdingcell.com> wrote:

[Steven Caron]

"we needed those deep core fixes very badly"

3rd party renderer support comes to mind. many of the render option changes are going to help this out. not being so tied to MR will make development for 3rd parties easier. they aren't going to have to pull MR centric options to match their options, along with tacking their own renderer specific options

steven

[Michaël Bentitou]

Maybe you can do it through scripting - maybe like a kill -9 on irix ;-)

No seriously, sometimes we've had stuff in our scenes that we were only
able to delete through scripting.

I can't delete some of the materials in my render passes recently...

-=mb.

[Steven Caron]

sorry didnt finish that last sentence...

"two ppgs up copying and pasting values back and forth is history"

On 6/19/07, Steven Caron < car...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Todd Alan Peleg]

but you stated.." now that i know where to find things.."

i took that to mean you had to learn where things are casue they weren't where you THOUGHT they should be.. indicating a non-logical layout..

[Todd Alan Peleg]

that seems more confusing that when i first looked at it..

[Steven Caron]

probably cause i have bad grammar, and type as fast as i talk :)

[Andre DeAngelis]

Thanks guys.

Will give scripting a go.

AD

[Byron Nash]

I guess I did not word my sentence very carefully. I guess what I would like to say in the end is that, yes it could use some improvements, and also yes, it is a step in the right direction. I am have less mistakes in this version.

On 6/19/07, Steven Caron <car...@gmail.com> wrote:

--
Byron Nash
www.armoredsquirrel.com

[Andre DeAngelis]

I need to convert an old VB script that uses a huge number of Case arguments to Python.

 

I’m not aware of a Case function available in Python.  Does anyone recommend a useful way to handle this in Python or am I stuck with using a massive if/elif condition?

 

Thanks

 

Andre

 

[Eric Lampi]

I am not "whining" about anything.  I don't know how specifically outline exactly what I am concerned about any clearer.

The information is simply not well laid out and not presented in a way that anyone, at a single glance can tell what is set globally and what is set locally.  I am not bashing the *whole* thing.   The things I complained about are pretty much it.  More visual feedback as to what is doing what and putting information together so I don't have to go clicking though 3 menus.

Oh and where did the pass flipbook button go?  It was nice to not have to hunt for my pass to flip it... Or is that somewhere new too? (yes, I know it's under playback, but it doesn't autoload the pass)

I guess the bottom line is that I have been doing this too long to be confounded by where the AA filters are, or how to turn on motion blur.  If it's that off the wall, the there is a problem.

E

 

Freelance 3-D Animator, F/X Artist

----- Original Message ----
From: Steven Caron <car...@gmail.com>
To: X...@Softimage.COM
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 3:41:46 PM
Subject: Re: Managing render settings...

well the render manager is just a plugin to pull it all together. i have actually not used the manager much at all...

if we can identify the exact issues people are having i think softimage will listen. if we just whine and say "we dont like the new way". we get no where.

On 6/19/07, Kris Rivel <kris...@gmail.com> wrote:

That's what I thought as well.  We all get accustomed to doing something one way and then when its radically altered, we all freak out a bit.  This is how I was for about 1 or 2 weeks using the Render Manager.

Kris

On 6/19/07, Steven Caron < car...@gmail.com> wrote:

your not alone..

i think its just so different that people are having trouble with it.

[takita]

Todd Alan Peleg wrote:
> that seems more confusing that when i first looked at it..

This probably isn't much more helpful but I've found (generally
speaking) I don't need to mess with the per-pass options too much (using
the scene manager for most of the work) if I take care to name my passes
proper. Sticking to that rule let me sort of ease in to the new render
options more gradually than if I'd tried to do everything pass for pass.

This is of course for straightforward conventional rendering, where I am
not going crazy with framebuffers or all those fun new preprocess
options that all the new render scariness makes possible. :)

Personally I tend to think of the per-pass options as a subset of the
Scene Options (I know it isn't but I like to think of it that way).

-T

--

A.K.I.T.A.: Artificial Killing and Immediate Troubleshooting Android

[takita]

Eric Lampi wrote:
> Oh and where did the pass flipbook button go? It was nice to not have
> to hunt for my pass to flip it... Or is that somewhere new too? (yes,
> I know it's under playback, but it doesn't autoload the pass)

RMB on the text field for your output in the render channels output and
you will see "browse" or "run flipbook".

But yeah the pass flipbook button is indeed gone. :)

[Steven Caron]

the "whine" comment wasn't aimed at you Eric, sorry if it offended... i think your concerns are valid.

"Oh and where did the pass flipbook button go? "

right click on a framebuffer output field

steven

[Thomas Kang]

One interesting way is to simulate it by using a dictionary dispatch.  Say you have this JScript code:

switch ("a") {
   case "a": logmessage("hello"); break;
   case "b": logmessage("world"); break;
   default: logmessage("!");
}

It would become this in Python:

switch = {
   "a": lambda:Application.LogMessage("hello"),
   "b": lambda:Application.LogMessage("world")
}
switch.get("a", lambda:Application.LogMessage ("!"))()

If you have no default you could simplify it to:

switch = {
   "a": lambda: Application.LogMessage("hello"),
   "b": lambda: Application.LogMessage("world")
}
switch["a"]()

Or in this case, you can simplify it even further:

switch = {
   "a": "hello",
   "b": "world"
}
Application.LogMessage(switch["a"])

I think you get the idea.  :)

It's interesting to think about how this compares with the standard if-elif construct--i.e., limitations, performance ramifications, resource usage, code factorization, etc.


-Tk

On 6/19/07, Andre DeAngelis < andre.d...@ubisoft.com> wrote:

[Matt Lind]

I agree.

I prefer a spreadsheet for managing something like this rather than bouncing
around from pass to pass in a manager or PPG. When there are 20 passes, I
need to find the small details I forgot such as activating motion blur for
one pass or making sure the filter is set to box instead of gauss. That's
easy to spot and correct in a spreadsheet because the settings form visual
patterns in the rows and columns. Netview comes to mind as a good
interface, no? Key areas could be color coded as needed to indicate local
vs. global or to show shared settings and so on. the first column or row
could be globally shared parameters while the rest are local to each pass.
Anybody else agree with this?

I feel like I'm flying blind in the current manager. If I'm away from it
for any length of time, I feel like I have to relearn it - not good. What
drives me most nuts is I can only see one pass at a time.

Matt

------------------------
Matt Lind
Animator / Technical Director
Softimage certified instructor:
Softimage|3D
Softimage|XSI
Matt.Lind(at)Mantom.net

Date : Tue, 19 Jun 2007
To : XSI(at)Softimage.COM
From : Eric Lampi
Subject : Managing render settings...

I don't want to get off on a rant here, but the way you set your render
settings is a lot more complicated now, and it doesn't need to be.

I can see the value of having global settings, but the interface is really
difficult to understand the rationale. For example, why is aliasing min/max
and sampling on a different page than the sample filter, type? They are
dependant on one another, so why split them up??

Does motion blur really need 3 places to set values? Scene MB is set on the
scene render options page, pass motion blur is enabled on the pass page,
then finally, motion blur sampling contrast, steps shutter are set in the
renderer options.

Seems to me that having one page with options set apart from one another as
global and local to a pass could be simply done by some kind of color coding
instead.

There's some good stuff, I like the way naming and location are set now with
filters, that makes much more sense, but it's overall taken a step back as
far as I am concerned.

Am I alone here on this? I know it's been a topic of frustration for a
number of people I've worked with. There was nothing wrong with the render
settings in previous versions, it needed some additions but I don't
understand why the whole thing was re-worked into something so... awkward.

E

Freelance 3-D Animator, F/X Artist

---

[Doug Nicola]

A spreadsheet view is a terrific idea for the Render Manager. Exactly
right about picking out the details of many passes quickly. Bouncing
around like that over 20 passes is crazy, really, there has got to be
a better way.

~Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: owne...@Softimage.COM [mailto:owne...@Softimage.COM]On
Behalf

[Steven Caron]

someone wrote a plugin to do this a while ago.. can't remember who though

steven

[Joe Laffey]

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007, Doug Nicola wrote:

> A spreadsheet view is a terrific idea for the Render Manager. Exactly
> right about picking out the details of many passes quickly. Bouncing
> around like that over 20 passes is crazy, really, there has got to be
> a better way.

I find myself setting the properties for one pass, and then copying and
pasting from the history, replacing the passname with '*'. Use friendly?
No? Gets the job done, though, and makes sure all the passes have the same
settings (for the settings I want the same, of course...)

--
Joe Laffey | Visual Effects for Film and Video
LAFFEY Computer Imaging | -------------------------------------
St. Louis, MO | Show Reel http://LAFFEY.tv/?e06035
USA | -------------------------------------
. | -*- Digital Fusion Plugins -*-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mail here will be rejected --> "Real Trap" <r_t...@laffeycomputer.com>

[Doug Nicola]

XSI is loaded with scripting possibilities like this, of course.

This particular scripting idea gets one specific job done, with
several steps, and is somewhat prone to error.

A spreadsheet view would allow for many fast settings, specific to
what you want (change one column, or change a cell, or copy and paste
whole rows...), and is instantly visually checkable for errors.

~Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: owne...@Softimage.COM [mailto:owne...@Softimage.COM]On
Behalf
Of Joe Laffey
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 6:53 PM
To: X...@Softimage.COM
Subject: RE: Managing render settings...

[Doug Nicola]

Also meant to add: Thanks for the tip! :)

~Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: owne...@Softimage.COM [mailto:owne...@Softimage.COM]On
Behalf
Of Joe Laffey
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 6:53 PM
To: X...@Softimage.COM
Subject: RE: Managing render settings...

[Eric Lampi]

No worries Steven, 

 

I am pretty new to 6.01 and I guess as a freelancer, and often bouncing around from place to place I often have to get up to speed on everything very fast.  So when I need to jam on something and I can't find the most basic things -and be confident I have it set up properly, it causes me a bit of stress.

 

I can count at least 5 times today where myself or someone else exclaimed some kind of foul word, trying to get a render set up right.

 

Like I said I like a lot about it, it just really needs more careful application in terms of feedback to a user so that he or she can be confident that everythng that needs to be off or on, is, and do it at a glance.

 

E
 

Freelance 3-D Animator, F/X Artist

----- Original Message ----
From: Steven Caron <car...@gmail.com>
To: X...@Softimage.COM
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 5:37:22 PM
Subject: Re: Managing render settings...

the "whine" comment wasn't aimed at you Eric, sorry if it offended... i think your concerns are valid.

"Oh and where did the pass flipbook button go? "

right click on a framebuffer output field

steven

On 6/19/07, Eric Lampi <eric...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I am not "whining" about anything.  I don't know how specifically outline exactly what I am concerned about any clearer.

The information is simply not well laid out and not presented in a way that anyone, at a single glance can tell what is set globally and what is set locally.  I am not bashing the *whole* thing.   The things I complained about are pretty much it.  More visual feedback as to what is doing what and putting information together so I don't have to go clicking though 3 menus.

Oh and where did the pass flipbook button go?  It was nice to not have to hunt for my pass to flip it... Or is that somewhere new too? (yes, I know it's under playback, but it doesn't autoload the pass)

I guess the bottom line is that I have been doing this too long to be confounded by where the AA filters are, or how to turn on motion blur.  If it's that off the wall, the there is a problem.

E

 

Freelance 3-D Animator, F/X Artist

----- Original Message ----
From: Steven Caron < car...@gmail.com>
To: X...@Softimage.COM
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 3:41:46 PM
Subject: Re: Managing render settings...

well the render manager is just a plugin to pull it all together. i have actually not used the manager much at all...

if we can identify the exact issues people are having i think softimage will listen. if we just whine and say "we dont like the new way". we get no where.

On 6/19/07, Kris Rivel < kris...@gmail.com> wrote:

That's what I thought as well.  We all get accustomed to doing something one way and then when its radically altered, we all freak out a bit.  This is how I was for about 1 or 2 weeks using the Render Manager.

Kris

On 6/19/07, Steven Caron < car...@gmail.com> wrote:

your not alone..

i think its just so different that people are having trouble with it.

On 6/19/07, Kris Rivel < kris...@gmail.com> wrote:

The setup in v6.01 is much better than in v6.  If you haven't spent much time using it, I would recommend really giving it a chance.  It doesn't sound like you've used v6 in production very much if at all.  I've been using v6 for awhile now on several projects and I've really gotten used to the new render setup.  I don't know...maybe I'm alone on this but I do like it better than v5.

Kris

On 6/19/07, Andi Farhall < an...@clearpost.co.uk> wrote:

I ranted about this when i first looked at 6, much better control with the local global thing but a really messy implementation of it that is a backward step in time saving terms instead of the time saver it's supposed to be. I can only assume they didnt have time to do any work on the layout of it so i'm hoping that the next point release will have this sorted.  Having said that 6 or 6.01 is the first release of xsi since 2 that i haven't jumped on and used straight away, it just makes me nervous...

 

 

A.

-----Original Message-----
From: owne...@Softimage.COM [mailto:owne...@Softimage.COM]On Behalf Of Eric Lampi
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 7:27 PM
To: X...@Softimage.COM

Subject: Managing render settings...

I don't want to get off on a rant here, but the way you set your render settings is a lot more complicated now, and it doesn't need to be.

I can see the value of having global settings, but the interface is really difficult to understand the rationale.  For example, why is aliasing min/max and sampling on a different page than the sample filter, type?  They are dependant on one another, so why split them up??

Does motion blur really need 3 places to set values?  Scene MB is set on the scene render options page, pass motion blur is enabled on the pass page, then finally, motion blur sampling contrast, steps shutter are set in the renderer options.

Seems to me that having one page with options set apart from one another as global and local to a pass could be simply done by some kind of color coding instead.

There's some good stuff, I like the way naming and location are set now with filters, that makes much more sense, but it's overall taken a step back as far as I am concerned.

Am I alone here on this?  I know it's been a topic of frustration for a number of people I've worked with.  There was nothing wrong with the render settings in previous versions, it needed some additions but I don't understand why the whole thing was re-worked into something so... awkward.

E

 

Freelance 3-D Animator, F/X Artist

[Steven Caron]

"it just really needs more careful application in terms of feedback to a user so that he or she can be confident that everythng that needs to be off or on, is, and do it at a glance"

this is true, i dont think the previous setup had this either. i welcome any improvements to the layout of the settings, if it makes me more connfident about what i am doing

[Matt Lind]

Yeah, but it wasn't implemented very well. It seemed more like an exercise
to use the (then new) grid data scripting object than to be an optimized
render manager. Spreadsheets don't belong in a PPG where you have to scroll
around umpteen times just to see the data and cannot interact with the rest
of the scene because the PPG is modal.

The whole point of a spreadsheet is to be able to view all the data at a
glance in a nice clean formatted table. Netview would be better as the
browser could be scaled fullscreen if necessary with cells color-coded by
purpose and/or relation. Added features would be the ability to copy/paste
values across cells in rows as well as columns. The old SI3D spreadsheet
view was very good for this type of thing. A few improvements would be to
borrow features from Microsoft Excel where cels could be linked with formula
so editting one cell could trigger user specified changes in others
automatically. Another improvement would be the ability to click and drag a
column/row header to rearrange items in a spreadsheet to the user's liking.
I don't know about you, but I find it much easier to click a few checkboxes
in a table to indicate which passes I'd like to render. Having access to
frame ranges in each pass would allow re-renders to take place very quickly.
Putting the spreadsheet in a Netview interface allows customization to fit
people's individual needs. For example, horizontal vs. vertical layout.
Given the huge number of render parameters avaialable, I'd prefer the render
parameters to be listed along the left column while my passes listed across
the top row. However, others may want it the other way around.

Matt

------------------------
Matt Lind
Animator / Technical Director
Softimage certified instructor:
Softimage|3D
Softimage|XSI
Matt.Lind(at)Mantom.net

Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007
To: XSI(at)Softimage.COM

From: carons(at)gmail.com

Subject: Re: Managing render settings...

someone wrote a plugin to do this a while ago.. can't remember who though

steven

---

[Andre DeAngelis]

Thanks Thomas,

 

Yes I came across this technique yesterday.  The if-elif contracts seem to be pretty quick.

 

I also came across these techniques, using class methods.

 

Andre

 

---

From: owne...@Softimage.COM [mailto:owne...@Softimage.COM] On Behalf Of Thomas Kang

Sent: June 19, 2007 6:34 PM
To: X...@Softimage.COM

[Kim Aldis]

If/elif can become tough to scan though. Switch is usually more legible.

[Ponthieux, Joey]

Eric,
Maybe I can help with this. A while back I made an attempt to figure
out what they did with the new rendering features. The result was a
detailed write up of all the differences and new workflow method. Here
is a condensed version of my understanding of the new system.

For sake of simplification here I will disregard the hardware render
options and I will refer to the relevant nodes in this discussion in the
following manner:

S:MRRO = Scene/Mental Ray Render options
P:MRRO = Pass/Mental Ray Render Options

S:SRO = Scene/Scene Render Options
P:PRO = Pass/Pass Render Options/Framebuffers

Regarding Pass Render Options/Framebuffers:
The Pass level render options can be reached by either clicking on
the Pass root node or on the Framebuffers node. Logically this dialog
really should have been named "Pass Render Options" as this is it's
function and that would have provided some sense of commonality with
Scene Render Options which it inherits parameters from.
Framebuffers are a subset of the Pass Render Options, but
unfortunately it is far too easy to assume that the Farmebuffers are the
pass level options when they are not due to the fact that clicking on
Framebuffers opens this dialog as well. For now I will refer to the Pass
options and Framebuffers options dialog as strictly Pass Render Options
or PRO.

In general information is passed from Scene level Mental Ray to Pass
level Mental Ray to Scene level render options to Pass level render
options,

or:

S:MRRO -> P:MRRO -> S:SRO -> P:PRO.

While this is the basic tracking of data from one node to the next there
are caveats which can be used to change, redirect, or limit the transfer
of information from one options node to the next. I'll try to explain
these caveats now:

S:MRRO -> P:MRRO
By default P:MRRO inherits all data from S:MRRO until the
inheritance is separated by the user. Termination of inheritance is done
by clicking on P:MRRO and agreeing to make P:MRRO local. Once terminated
all data from S:MRRO is no longer available to P:MRRO for that pass,
unless P:MRRO is deleted at which time P:MRRO will be returned to full
inheritance from S:MRRO. The advantage to this is that all P:MRRO nodes
from all passes can be driven by the S:MRRO node. Some P:MRRO nodes can
use local settings, others global by inheriting from S:MRRO.
What is important to understand here is that P:MRRO is the final
Mental Ray definitions for any pass. Whether P:MRRO has been set to
local or is still inheriting from the global will determine which
setting get passed to the next level. For example, the settings should
be viewed as being passed from P:MRRO if local, or through P:MRRO if global.

S:SRO -> P:PRO
The association between scene render options and pass render options
is not as simple as S:MRRO to P:MRRO. There is an association between
these two dialogs, but all association is selective and restrictive as
opposed to a full inheritance model. In other words you get to choose
selectively what gets transferred from the S:SRO setting to it's
respective P:PRO setting, where respective settings exist. Further,
P:PRO has some settings which are exclusive to P:PRO, so there is a
different dynamic between these two dialogs than with the Mental Ray
options. One way to view P:PRO is that it is permanently Local, you will
never be required to make it local, but by default some of the settings
in P:PRO still inherit their parameters directly from S:SRO.

Parameters that are inherited manually from S:SRO;
Renderer
Frame Settings
Output Resolution
etc.

Parameters that are inherited automatically;
Motion Blur
Field Rendering
etc.

Any inherited parameter which P:PRO inherits from S:SRO can be made
local by turning the P:PRO parameter on or changing it's input. This is
the selective nature of it's inheritance from S:SRO.

The dialogs are restrictive in that there are some parameters exclusive
to either S:SRO or P:PRO and are not found elsewhere. Scene Output,
Render Channels Output, and Pass Camera are examples of this restrictive
nature.

P:MRRO -> S:SRO / P:MRRO -> P:PRO
Transfer of Mental ray options to the scene or pass level is done by
setting S:SRO/Scene Renderer to mental ray. This will be transferred to
the pass level if P:PRO/Pass Renderer is set to Use Scene Render Options
or to mental ray.

Since the renderer parameter is selective, Scene level rendering can be
set to mental ray and inherited by all passes, or only by some. For
example the scene could be set to mental ray, some passes to use what
the scene uses, and other passes set to hardware.

Ultimately the Pass becomes the final arbiter of most parameters other
than the mental ray options. The framebuffers take the pass level one
step further but are so specific to the pass they don't quite interfere
with an understanding of how the render information gets passed from one
step to the next.

The scene versus pass model allows you the flexibility to set some
global parameters which can drive multiple pass renders. In this way, if
needed a single change can be applied to the global settings and
transferred down to the pass level with ease. Or the settings can be
driven from each individual pass if required by isolating P:MRRO and
manipulating the settings in P:MRRO and P:PRO.

Consider motion blur for example, while there are total of four dialogs
to edit motion blur settings, only two locations really matter. The
settings found in P:MRRO that are set locally or inherited globally,
and either S:SRO or P:PRO. Whether you use S:SRO or P:PRO for your
Motion Blur settings depends on whether these specific Motion Blur
settings are intended to be transferred to some or all passes or only
specific to one pass. The trick is in knowing how you want the
parameters to migrate from scene level to the pass level or be specific
to only the pass level. In some cases you can do both.

Hope this helps.

Joey Ponthieux
NCI Information Systems Inc.
NASA Langley Research Center
____________________________________________________________
Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and
do not represent the opinions of NASA or any other party.

> On 6/19/07, *Kris Rivel* <kris...@gmail.com

> <mailto:kris...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> That's what I thought as well. We all get accustomed to doing
> something one way and then when its radically altered, we all
> freak out a bit. This is how I was for about 1 or 2 weeks using
> the Render Manager.
>
> Kris
>
>

> On 6/19/07, *Steven Caron* < car...@gmail.com

> <mailto:car...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> your not alone..
>
> i think its just so different that people are having trouble
> with it.
>
>

> On 6/19/07, *Kris Rivel * < kris...@gmail.com

> <mailto:kris...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> The setup in v6.01 is much better than in v6. If you
> haven't spent much time using it, I would recommend really
> giving it a chance. It doesn't sound like you've used v6
> in production very much if at all. I've been using v6 for
> awhile now on several projects and I've really gotten used
> to the new render setup. I don't know...maybe I'm alone
> on this but I do like it better than v5.
>
> Kris
>
>

> On 6/19/07, *Andi Farhall* < an...@clearpost.co.uk

> <mailto:an...@clearpost.co.uk>> wrote:
>
> I ranted about this when i first looked at 6, much
> better control with the local global thing but a
> really messy implementation of it that is a backward
> step in time saving terms instead of the time saver
> it's supposed to be. I can only assume they didnt have
> time to do any work on the layout of it so i'm hoping
> that the next point release will have this sorted.
> Having said that 6 or 6.01 is the first release of xsi
> since 2 that i haven't jumped on and used straight
> away, it just makes me nervous...
>
>
> A.
>
> -----Original Message-----

> *From:* owne...@Softimage.COM
> <mailto:owne...@Softimage.COM>
> [mailto:owne...@Softimage.COM
> <mailto:owne...@Softimage.COM>]*On Behalf Of
> *Eric Lampi
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 19, 2007 7:27 PM
> *To:* X...@Softimage.COM <mailto:X...@Softimage.COM>
> *Subject:* Managing render settings...

[Hans Payer]

For a Passes SpreadSheet:

1- Download: http://www.hanspayer.com/XSI/PassesSpreadsheet.zip

2- Create a Queries folder in c:\$user$\Softimage\XSI_6.01\Application

3- put passes.query in c:\$user$\Softimage\XSI_6.01\Application\Queries

4 - put get_passes.vbs in C:\Softimage\XSI_6.01\Application\DSScripts

5 - open XSI

6 - get a spreadsheet an select Query->Open -> c:\$user$\Softimage\XSI_6.01\Application\Queries\passes.query

Voila!

note: not all the render parameters are there but you can easily edit the get_passes.vbs and add the ones you need and/or change the order.


Hans

[Ajit Menon]

very nice!

Never usd the spreadheet option before but I can see a lot of really neat presets in there.

Is there a way to add this custom query to the presets instead of having to navigate into the folder by any chance?

[Hans Payer]

I know that'd be great. I'm sure it's possible.  I'll look.

[Stephen Blair]

Last time I looked, it was not possible.

 

But now Hans will prove me wrong, no doubt.

---

From: owne...@Softimage.COM [mailto:owne...@Softimage.COM] On Behalf Of Hans Payer
Sent: Wed 20 June 2007 4:27 PM
To: X...@Softimage.COM

Subject: Re: Managing render settings...

[Doug Nicola]

Great!  Works very well.  Is it possible to have the spreadsheet allow changes to things like Image Format or AA Filter type? 

 

Thanks!

 

~Doug

[Matt Lind]

Thanks Hans for the query, but it's not what I was getting at.

What I'd be looking for in a spreadsheet is more dynamic and customizable
interaction. The ability to not only manage render settings, but also to
manage passes and partitions associated with them. For example, specifying
which partitions are visible and having render settings updated accordingly.
If nothing is visible in a motion blur pass, then the spreadsheet would
detect that and either flag it, deactivate motion blur for that pass, or
turn off the checkbox to render that pass. If a certain user specified
shader is applied as a partition level override, then certain render
settings should automatically be set to speed up and simplify the task of
managing render settings. If 'x' number of elements reside in a particular
pass and occupy 'y' amount of coordinate space, then certain minimum/maximum
BSP settings should be set. of course, any of these examples could be
turned off if the user doesn't like them. This is what I mean by formula
based relations per Microsoft Excel features. User makes the rules and sets
the criteria for triggering these responses. Unfortunately, the current XSI
spreadsheet system is not complete and actually less useful than it's
predecessor.

It would be great if the XSI spreadsheet had all these features, but perhaps
Netview is a better choice to handle this stuff as the UI could be fully
customized and not be constrained by legacy XSI interaction and UI rules.

My two cents,

Matt

--------------------------

Matt Lind
Animator / Technical Director
Softimage certified instructor:
Softimage|3D
Softimage|XSI
Matt.Lind(at)Mantom.net

Date : Wed, 20 Jun 2007
To : XSI(at)Softimage.COM
From : hanspayer(at)gmail.com

Subject : Re: Managing render settings...

For a Passes SpreadSheet:

1- Download: http://www.hanspayer.com/XSI/PassesSpreadsheet.zip

2- Create a Queries folder in c:\$user$\Softimage\XSI_6.01\Application

3- put passes.query in c:\$user$\Softimage\XSI_6.01\Application\Queries

4 - put get_passes.vbs in C:\Softimage\XSI_6.01\Application\DSScripts

5 - open XSI

6 - get a spreadsheet an select Query->Open ->
c:\$user$\Softimage\XSI_6.01\Application\Queries\passes.query

Voila!

note: not all the render parameters are there but you can easily edit the
get_passes.vbs and add the ones you need and/or change the order.

Hans

---

[Hans Payer]

I know what you mean Matt. The XSI Spreadsheet is very limited. A netview based, Excel like, dynamic spreadsheet would be best and awesome!  Maybe it'll be one of my futur projects. But for now the passes spreadsheet can give a little help for ppl who need it.

for the other question  about the ability to change image format and/or aa type. You can't; it's very limited. But at least you quickly have a general overview and validate these settings.

Hans

[Bradley Gabe]

Unfortunately, the imagination works faster than software developers.

I know what you mean Matt. The XSI Spreadsheet is very limited. A netview based, Excel like, dynamic spreadsheet would be best and awesome!  Maybe it'll be one of my futur projects. But for now the passes spreadsheet can give a little help for ppl who need it.

for the other question  about the ability to change image format and/or aa type. You can't; it's very limited. But at least you quickly have a general overview and validate these settings.

Hans

-- Bradley R. Gabe | Senior Creature TD | Stan Winston Studio

[Thomas Kang]

Here's what I was just showing Hans.  Make sure you have Microsoft Excel installed on your machine, and type this into the XSI script editor:

Set xl = CreateObject("Excel.Application")
xl.Visible = True
xl.Workbooks.Add
xl.Cells(1, 1).Value = "Hello world!"

I wish I had more time to work on this.  Perhaps some enterprising scripter out there can take it from here, though.

- Tk

[Doug Nicola]

Yes, I knew this wasn't what Matt was talking about either.  Nobody would expect something like that to happen overnight.

 

But this is very handy for the overview and editing changes that are possible. 

 

~Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: owne...@Softimage.COM [mailto:owne...@Softimage.COM]On Behalf Of Hans Payer
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 3:14 PM
To: X...@Softimage.COM
Subject: Re: Managing render settings...