AE connection built in.

[Paul Griswold]

Am I the only one who sits back in frustration as C4D pulls away motion graphics artists simply because it works really well with AE?

I know various people have worked on import/export scripts, but IMHO this is something Softimage should have built in.  

We've firmly established that Softimage is not going to be marketed as a "main" package from AD, so it seems to me the folks working on Soft should be looking for every niche they can fill.  After Effects has a pretty solid market out there.  I imagine they'd be totally thrilled to be able to combine ICE-based effects with AE motion graphics in an EASY manner.

Don't get me wrong - it's awesome people have taken their time to develop scripts, but the fact is most mograph artists are not looking to run a JScript/Python script.  They want a button that says "export to After Effects" and a dialog box where they pick what they want to do.

Anyway, it's Friday and I figured it's a good topic for discussion.

-Paul

[john clausing]

here! here!

that would be great......only we're transitioning to Nuke.....but in the meantime...

:)

john

---

From: Paul Griswold <pgri...@fusiondigitalproductions.com>
To: Softimage Mailing list <soft...@listproc.autodesk.com>
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 3:31 PM
Subject: AE connection built in.

[Ed Manning]

Given a choice between AD and Foundry, I'd hope for a Mograph product from the latter.  And I say this a 19-year user of Softimage. :(

[Byron Nash]

I would totally welcome a built in "Send to AE" tool. It doesn't seem like something that would take up that much manpower to get working. If the dev team can come up with ICE, they should be able to get an After Effects tool going on a lunch break. Add a Nuke one too! It seems like software that if friendly about import/export is easier to get plugged into an entrenched pipeline. 

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 3:41 PM, john clausing <jclau...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Graham Bell]

Autodesk have identified the threat of C4D and motion graphics, but its Max that seems to be spearheading the attack.

An After Effects interop was added to the 3ds Max Subs Pack last year and apparently even Adobe say it's the best interop with AE, and there seems to be more to come.

http://area.autodesk.com/blogs/ken/mediasync_best_interop_with_adobe_after_effects_gets_better

Many might feel that Soft is losing out again, but I can see why Max has maybe got this first, especially when you look at its userbase and also who owns Maxon.
Personally I would really like to see the same level of interop with AE for Maya and Soft.

Graham

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Byron Nash
Sent: 16 March 2012 20:22
To: john clausing; soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: AE connection built in.

I would totally welcome a built in "Send to AE" tool. It doesn't seem like something that would take up that much manpower to get working. If the dev team can come up with ICE, they should be able to get an After Effects tool going on a lunch break. Add a Nuke one too! It seems like software that if friendly about import/export is easier to get plugged into an entrenched pipeline.

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 3:41 PM, john clausing <jclau...@yahoo.com<mailto:jclau...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
here! here!

that would be great......only we're transitioning to Nuke.....but in the meantime...

:)
john

________________________________
From: Paul Griswold <pgri...@fusiondigitalproductions.com<mailto:pgri...@fusiondigitalproductions.com>>
To: Softimage Mailing list <soft...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:soft...@listproc.autodesk.com>>

[Christian Gotzinger]

Well yes, makes total sense. ICE has got nothing on 3ds max when it comes to motion graphics.
I remember a video from (last Siggraph I think) where the 3ds max instructor showed off this awesome 3rd party script that allows you to build object arrays. Holy cow, I've never seen anything like it. It was grand!

[Graham Bell]

Don't even go there...
The rationale that I heard from some people was that Max would also be easier for guys to pick up in the same way C4D is.

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Christian Gotzinger
Sent: 16 March 2012 21:19
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: AE connection built in.

Well yes, makes total sense. ICE has got nothing on 3ds max when it comes to motion graphics.
I remember a video from (last Siggraph I think) where the 3ds max instructor showed off this awesome 3rd party script that allows you to build object arrays. Holy cow, I've never seen anything like it. It was grand!

[Bradley Gabe]

I know girls that are easier for guys to pick up, but it doesn't mean they're marriage material.

[Graham Bell]

I'm only the messenger, lol, believe me I'm not in any way trying to justify anything.

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Bradley Gabe
Sent: 16 March 2012 21:36
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: AE connection built in.

I know girls that are easier for guys to pick up, but it doesn't mean they're marriage material.

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 5:30 PM, Graham Bell <Graha...@autodesk.com<mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com>> wrote:
Don't even go there...
The rationale that I heard from some people was that Max would also be easier for guys to pick up in the same way C4D is.

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com> [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com>] On Behalf Of Christian Gotzinger
Sent: 16 March 2012 21:19
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:soft...@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: Re: AE connection built in.
Well yes, makes total sense. ICE has got nothing on 3ds max when it comes to motion graphics.
I remember a video from (last Siggraph I think) where the 3ds max instructor showed off this awesome 3rd party script that allows you to build object arrays. Holy cow, I've never seen anything like it. It was grand!

[Bradley Gabe]

That's okay, I wasn't really invested in the argument. I just heard my brain reply with what I thought was a funny retort, so I figured I'd share. :-)

[Gustavo Eggert Boehs]

LOL

Trying to go back to Motion Graphics topic, it is something that interests me. Besides the AE integration there are other easier limitations that could be overcome. Like dealing with sound in ICE, being able to retrieve information in ICE sampling it from anywhere in the timeline, and also handling text inside ICE... Just some random Off-Topic toughts...

--
Gustavo E Boehs
3d Artist
http://www.gustavoeb.com.br/blog

[Steven Caron]

it was pretty hilarious, i am glad you did

[Graham Bell]

+1

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Steven Caron
Sent: 16 March 2012 21:59
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: AE connection built in.

it was pretty hilarious, i am glad you did

[Stephen Davidson]

I have been using AE and Softimage, together, ever since Matador was bought and retired.

I find them quite compatible. I have, however noticed that locally, the motion graphics community

has surged towards C4D. I never have tried, C4D, so I assumed it was a good MAC salesman

in the area. :) I do agree, however...export/export  to/from AE would be a time saver. 3D camera 

export/export would be fantastic. Not all works well when it is incorporated into AE, however. Take

Particle Illusion, for example. A great stand alone program, but only a so-so plug-in for AE, in my

opinion.

I am tempted to expand my familiarity with digital composite software. I have even started playing around with

FX Tree. I may not even need AE, if I learn to use FX Tree better. I would be interested in comments from anyone

that has experience with both AE and FX Tree. My FX Tree knowledge is very limited.

--

Best Regards,
  Stephen P. Davidson 
       (954) 552-7956
    sdav...@3Danimationmagic.com

My Website is GREEN, Is yours?

[Ed Harriss]

If you want to do compositing, like to stay in one program and enjoy node based environments then FXTree might be for you. It is a lot more powerful than most people give it credit for. Many of the people I talk to about the FXTree don't even know it has a paint program in it. (Two... sort of, one raster and one vector.) It integrates with Softimage pretty well and you'll never have any trouble finding the file you used to composite your scene. ;) You can even have more than one FXTree in a scene. Very handy.

 

But the FXTree does have some major downsides. Example: If you use After Effects, you are used to being able to buy plugins that can do some pretty amazing things with very little effort. (Good for those fun clients with tight deadlines.) Not the case with the FXTree. If you want to create an effect, you'll probably have to build it from scratch. There are not very many resources out there for the FXTree either. Then there is the development side of the FXTree. Example: Take a look at "Applying a Match Move" in the Compositing and Effetcts>Tracking section of the manual. The example uses one of those ancient "green" Palm Pilots. ;) I like the FXTree, but how long has it been since they put any major effort into it. Will they continue to work on the FXTree? If they don't and you are content with the way it works now, it is a perfect solution for you. If not, stick with whatever you use at the moment.

 

 

Also, count me in as one of those people that would like to see a good AE connection to Softimage. So much time has been wasted, if only they played nicely together. After Effects isn't perfect, but for motion graphics it is my first choice.

 

 

Ed

www.edharriss.com

 

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Davidson
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 10:52 PM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: AE connection built in.

 

I have been using AE and Softimage, together, ever since Matador was bought and retired.

[Paul Griswold]

I think Paul Smith made some good points that if the FXTree could receive an ICE make-over it'd be pretty amazing.  

I'm personally not big into AE, but I work with AE motion graphics folks all the time and it just drives me nuts to see C4D grabbing market-share.

I can easily see how Softimage could pull a way a bunch of those AE/C4D folks.  Get the same level of interoperability in Soft and then start showing off the latest Polynoid video to as many AE user groups as possible.  If they thought for a second they could do that kind of work with Softimage and mix it into their AE pipeline, you'd have them beating down the doors.

-Paul

[Kiril Aronofski]

Not only that Autodesk has been slowly phasing Softimage out of the game market, they are now failing to push it into the one it should be a natural contender for. Sometimes i really wonder what the hell are those guys thinking...

[Toonafish]

They are thinking about revenue off course. And I don't know how big the C4D userbase is, but I suspect it's pretty small compared the amount of customers using any Autodesk product. And with AD owning most of the 3D software market, it might be a bit pointless for them to push a tiny fish like Softimage a lot. They would be taking away resources from the development of other, more popular software, only to compete with their own products, with the risk of spreading themselves too thin. Why would they do that ?

Ronald.

[phil harbath]

you pretty much explained why they should never have purchased Softimage in the first place (from a user's perspective).

----- Original Message -----

From: Toonafish

To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 8:14 PM

Subject: Re: AE connection built in.

[Simon Reeves]

Last time I used fxtree - pucking up a job started by someone using it offsite (as we didn't use it anymore) it was a nightmare! Really buggy. It was a shame as used to use it all the time 5 years ago. I don't think it's been upgraded once in that time though..

[Chris Marshall]

Don't know what kind of problems you had with the fxtree, but I use it all the time, and I mean ALL the time and I very rarely have problems. Recently did a complex keying job, 2 and a half minutes of green screen keyed no problem, rendered and colour corrected all in the fxtree. It's absolutely brilliant!!!

[Morten Bartholdy]

:-D

[Cristobal Infante]

The reason why C4D is popular in the Mograph world is because it runs on a mac. Most
of the designer prefer the look and feel of the mac, so wouldn't drag them out of that world
with the promise of Softimage. If you port softimage to mac than you have a chance , but we've been there
before..

I do agree though, that the connection xsi>ae should be more solid, but don't that would change things
market wise...

[pet...@skynet.be]

I’m using it less and less in favor of Nuke, but I always use it for precomps and quick tests.

But in the past I have used it extensively and found it an extremely usefull tool to have.

it has its quirks, but ‘buggy’ it never was in my opinion.

 

it used to be quite fast – allthough working with exr’s in HDR and high resolutions, it shows it’s limits.

 

main problems for me are:

clipping at black/white.

no elegant workflow for alphas/masks – it’s made with the approach of external masks as rgb images.

layout is not very refined, nodes take up a lot of screenspace – and at the same time you need more nodes to do the same thing, compared other compositors,

this ends up cluttering the comp in several ways, and beyond a 50 node comp it just becomes unreadable.

it would need lots of fancy 3rd party nodes in order to be a full fledged, up to date, compositor.

 

As for the keyer, I still remember this Bluescreen shot I had to key. Couldnt get decent results on flame, shake or avid DS. (no fusion or nuke access at the time) – I ended up keying in Fxtree and got the best results. FXtree has a few very cool things for those who care to dig for it.

 

 

 

 

From: Chris Marshall

Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 11:14 AM

To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

Subject: Re: AE connection built in.

 

[Thomas Helzle]

I think that's only a part of it.
I recently worked with a designer who is using C4D, and as interested
as he had been initially in XSI, when he sat next to me for a while,
he lost all interest pretty fast.
I'm not sure how many here realize how amazingly complicated XSI is
compared to C4D.
All those options and tools and things that are amazing for a pipeline
and more technical oriented people - for a designer who just wants to
put his ideas into images it's a nightmare.
C4D strives to be mediocre and succeeds.
It's made for people who don't see 3D as their main interest in live
(like a Mac is basically a computer for people who aren't interested
in computers).

XSI on the other hand can't be made into a layman's tool by adding
some toolbars to the ICE tab or an AE exporter.
Even the Explorer in default settings sent a shiver down the spine of my friend.

I personally can't see _any_ direction in the development of XSI since
it got bought.
So a sudden turn towards Motion Graphics would be as pointless as it
was to call it the Autodesk game solution without investing some
serious work into it over a long time.

It will be interesting to watch from a distance what will come out of
all of this in some years...

Cheers,

Tom

[Matt Lind]

 

>> Not only that Autodesk has been slowly phasing Softimage out of the game market, ….

 

This is news to us!  Please explain.

 

 

 

Matt

 

 

[Marco Peixoto]

Well... don't know how many have read this thread:

http://www.si-community.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2191


From what is posted it doesn't really get us much insight on what AD is really doing with Softimage... but we seem to know what AD is doing to other tools on their arsenal:

- "Sure there is a next gen platform, it's called Maya.. and they're pouring millions of dollar of R&D in it.. "

That is a quote from luceric on that same thread. Its a long thread and after page 3 things really don't look tempting for Softimage users.



To stay On Topic yes an AE connection is MUCH need since ages ago... sometimes it seems Softimage stood still in time... it still "thinks" it has a userbase composed of only High End TDs that can code all their tools...

[Steven Caron]

there are more 3rd party developers than ever for softimage. i know you guys want a first party solution but maybe for this plugin its best for it to be solved by the 3rd party. exocortex, eric mootz, etc.

start talking about features, workflow, and the value it has and maybe we can see a new product.

s

[Luc-Eric Rousseau]

It's definitely not being phased out, the Japan games market is very
important to Softimage.

On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 1:10 PM, Matt Lind <ml...@carbinestudios.com> wrote:
>
>
>>> Not only that Autodesk has been slowly phasing Softimage out of the game

>>> market, �.
>
>
>
> This is news to us!� Please explain.

[Matt Lind]

What about the rest of the games market? That's the immediate concern as Japan works differently from us folks in the Western hemisphere.

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Luc-Eric Rousseau
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 11:57 AM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: AE connection built in.

It's definitely not being phased out, the Japan games market is very important to Softimage.

On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 1:10 PM, Matt Lind <ml...@carbinestudios.com> wrote:
>
>
>>> Not only that Autodesk has been slowly phasing Softimage out of the

>>> game market, ..

[Luc-Eric Rousseau]

I knew I had phrased that poorly right when I hit the send button :P
Continue to make your requests for enhancements and bug fixes to the
team, it's very likely that the other game developers also want the
exact same things. Custom realtime shaders, better mapping tools, SDK
requests, performance, etc, the requests are very similar for games
studios across the world.

On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 3:02 PM, Matt Lind <ml...@carbinestudios.com> wrote:
> What about the rest of the games market? �That's the immediate concern as Japan works differently from us folks in the Western hemisphere.
>

[Matt Lind]

So basically you’re making an assumption off the usual rumors of the sky is falling.

 

Sure, some product will eventually come along and replace softimage.  We all know that day is coming just like it will replace other products, but to say that Softimage is phasing out of the games market is entirely different as it implies a change in product strategy.

 

 

Matt

 

 

 

 

 

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Marco Peixoto
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 11:15 AM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: AE connection built in.

 

Well... don't know how many have read this thread:

[Kiril Aronofski]

My comment seems to have been taken more seriously than I intended.

It was more of an observation than anything, really... Based on the development in the last couple of years - time heavily spend by other applications like Max and Maya to straighten and advance their positions in game market. And yes, even the latest GDC indicates a lot of things are going on on the Autodesk front but they don't necessarily concern Softimage too much (I'm looking at you, skyline!).

Probably shouldn't have worded it with such conviction, though. I was just surprised they would overlook the natural predispositions Softimage has for motion graphics work.

In Autodesks defense (and something that didn't occur to me initially) Max's interoperability with AE might just be a result of many requests they got from their users, rather than their own initiative...



-Kiril

[Eric Lampi]

I use it frequently too. Some people are just skeptical about the FXTree and I don't quite understand why. I learned to composite on Eddie, and personally, I always hated AE's workflow. Node based is the way to go.

I have a number of tricks that I use in the FXTree that you can't do anywhere else. Keying changes to your texture maps, or generating a reveal matte without having to write out a sequence. So many cool things you can do with it. It could use a little updating though.

[Chris Marshall]

I think people are skeptical possibly because it hasn't had any attention for years, which gives the impression that it's out dated and not worth using. A bit of work on it would help a great deal. I had thought maybe they would convert it to the ICE graph look and feel, like they did with the Render Tree. That would immediately make it more appealing.

[Paul Griswold]

Totally unifying the render tree, ICE and FXTree would be a huge help.  Especially if it was more than just cosmetic.

If the FXTree supported OFX that'd also be a major plus.  All that stuff that works in Fusion, Nuke, Vegas, etc., would suddenly be available.

I've been compiling every XSI to AE and AE to XSI script I can find to see what's out there, what works and what doesn't.  I'll try to post more later today if I can.

I'm prepping to work on a music video that'll be a mix of Softimage and After Effects so I'm a bit motivated to make it work.

Interesting discussion guys!

-Paul