Second control layer after shapes

[Ben Davis]

Hello everyone,

I'm stumped as to a solution to have a secondary level of control for a facial rig that would be first deformed by shapes, then by fine-tune controllers on top of that (deform the mesh by envelope). The idea is that the additional controllers be moved by the shapes (by matching/constraining to a point), and when you want you tweak the shape by moving the controllers. If you alter the shape, the controller still follows, and so on...

All the solutions I've tried end up with some kind of additional displacing of the geometry (shape moves the point to which the controller is matched, you move the controller, it moves the geometry - hence the point to which the controller is matched...). I've so far tried constraints, cluster w/ centers, working on cloned meshes, enveloping... I'll readily admit that my ICE skills are far from sufficient to say I've explored all its possibilities.

I 'm hoping the solution is not to cache the mesh's deformation, that seems to take from the idea of going to and from base and secondary animating.

Any insight on this would be awesome!

Ben 

--

Benjamin Clifford Davis

3D artist

www.bcdavis.info

[Matt Morris]

This should show you one way:

http://www.softimageblog.com/archives/209 

--
www.matinai.com

[Steven Caron]

what do you mean 'additional displacing of the geometry'? are you getting a doubling effect?

s

[Olivier Jeannel]

Doritos ?
http://www.softimageblog.com/archives/209

[Ben Davis]

Ah! That's great, thanks Matt and Olivier for the link.

Steve - yes I'm getting a doubling effect. But you've already brought a great solution in the link that the other 2 just sent ;) Thanks for the insight ! (so that's what doritos are...)

Ben

--

Benjamin Clifford Davis

3D artist

www.bcdavis.info

[Steven Caron]

ok, you mentioned 'clones' so i thought you might have already seen my post on softimage blog. so check that out and feel free to ask any questions here about the setup.

s

[Eric Thivierge]

Just as a quick tip. Using clones in Softimage works great except if you freeze off the mesh. Since the 'CopyOp' has to live in the Modeling stack, I recommend instead to simply make a duplicate and for the 'clone' mesh and setup an ICE tree in the Shape Modeling stack that looks like:

Get Data[SourceMesh.pointposition] -> Switch Context -> Set Data[self.pointposition]

--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
Currently: Digital Artist, Rigging at Animal Logic
http://www.ethivierge.com

[Olivier Jeannel]

Made at Blur Studio, incredibly beautiful.
http://vimeo.com/34699752
Possibly some softimage in it ? Infos anyone ?

[Jeremie Passerin]

There is a short 'behind the scene' here :

http://blog.motionmedia.com/tag/realflow/

[Olivier Jeannel]

Salut Jerem :)
another there : http://io9.com/5873372/

[Steven Caron]

i dont work there anymore, enoch would have to comment but rigging and animation (character anim) is probably done in softimage. there is an fx artist that likes to use ICE a bit, but this looks like they are saying its a ton of realflow.

s

[Enoch Ihde]

yep, softimage for rigging and animation, although the flowers opening were handled in max with morphs.

[Olivier Jeannel]

So this is rendered in Max with Vray ?

[Ben Davis]

This is great, I have a working doritos system! On a sphere for now, but it's upgrading to a face today. Thanks so much for the great input, I was close but I wasn't looking in the right place to compensate the double deforming. Static_KineState is the key. ( I often try to re-invent the wheel it seems... )

Eric - Thanks for the tip, getting away from a clone solution is actually going to help me separate the work better (no longer afraid to lose the link between base mesh and copy).

Ben

 

--

Benjamin Clifford Davis

3D artist

www.bcdavis.info

[jo benayoun]

amazing job ! as usual with Blur ...
What I like, is at this stage, we finally forgot the technique and begin to enjoy the show with wide opened eyes ...

[Stephen Davidson]

One problem... I forgot to read the titles... :)

On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 6:27 AM, jo benayoun <joben...@gmail.com> wrote:

amazing job ! as usual with Blur ...
What I like, is at this stage, we finally forgot the technique and begin to enjoy the show with wide opened eyes ...

--

Best Regards,
  Stephen P. Davidson 
       (954) 552-7956
    sdav...@3Danimationmagic.com

Check My BLOG

My Website is GREEN, Is yours?

[Enoch Ihde]

Yes, rendered in max with vray

[David Rivera]

http://youtu.be/0N6Ea4Ys-zU at 1:57. I got secondary controllers. I key them, shape animate it

and trhen If I scrub back , offsets fly off their deformers (following doritos´ nomenclature).

To correct them: I zero deformers, then scrub back and forth and then it almost gets fixed.

But it´s true, the order of the second shape layering controls in the stack operator it´s important.

Doritos are almost complete example of this. it could be good if anyone had the time to re-do

an upgraded version of doritos nowadays with real rigs.

Bests.

David.

---

From: Steven Caron <car...@gmail.com>
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2012 1:03 PM
Subject: Re: Second control layer after shapes

[Eric Thivierge]

I'm not sure what you're implying by that statement but Steven's setup is rock solid and I've used it many times. Of course operator order is important. Certain things need to evaluate before others...

--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
Currently: Digital Artist, Rigging at Animal Logic
http://www.ethivierge.com

On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 6:34 PM, David Rivera <activemoti...@yahoo.com> wrote:

... doritos nowadays with real rigs.

[Steven Caron]

Blur used and still uses doritos on many 'real rigs'. I am not sure of your setup, a cycle maybe, but if you follow the rules... it's solid. 

*written with my thumbs

[Alan Fregtman]

I've personally used it on at least 50 'real' rigs in the last few
years without any problems. It's a rock solid technique.

Are you sure you followed all the steps, David?

[Marco Peixoto]

Speaking about the Dorritos setup, how can you prevent the Object that is Cluster Constrained to not start misaligning its XYZ axis?

I have used some Maya rigs that have similar setups like Dorritos and no matter how Rotated the Head or when the Shapes are it is applied, the Y Axis of the Dorrito always points Up (following a parent relationship of course), but in Softimage the axis gets all over the place, it can be pointing up and it can start twisting. Trying later on to fine tune keys on the Graph get s overcomplicated.

I have tried everything I can remember but haven't been successful yet, any takes on this one that might get rid of this?

I'm posting a small video showing what I mean on with the Maya rig:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lyH9aSBYh0

[Steven Caron]

turn tangency off on the constraint?  its important you still make it so they dont flip though, keying the rotation might be enough. other wise just give it an up vector set to world up.

and by the way how well does the maya setup work with the character flips or turns his head 90 degrees? or how about laying down?

s

[Marco Peixoto]

I will  try keying the Rotation tks for the suggestion  but otherwise i have tried everything really, even another item in the hierarchy so that i can adjust the rotation after the Constraint do align the Axis, but after Shapes the Y gets all over...

Heres a video showing an extreme Maya Pose, everything simply works like expected:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqIi0krsJPc

[Steven Caron]

did you remove the tangency from the cluster constraint?

s

[Marco Peixoto]

Yes I did and also Keyed the Rotations... everything seems to work as I was expecting but then a Rotation in the Head and it starts to misalign again:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTrjbosJRcU

Like I said before except for Keying the Rotations I already tried everything I could remember, being a Point Cluster or an Edge or a Polygon Cluster the behavior is the same.

[Alan Fregtman]

Did you turn off Normal alignment in the Normal tab too?

[Steven Caron]

right, sorry... you will need to do more than just that. dont worry about keying the rotations i think you will need to turn off tangency and normal, but you need to solve the space for the cluster constrained null yourself. either by parenting it to the head or setting up a more complex expression for the static kine state.

i would like to continue to help but i am busy... i hope others here with more experience in maya can help you. i see no reason the same behavior cannot be achieved.

s

[Alan Fregtman]

I gave it a shot in my one Maya job a looooooong time ago. Can't
remember the specifics, but the static kinestate equivalent in Maya is
known as the "bind pose", of which there is a node lurking around
keeping all the bind pose values.

You can do the same dorito deal by overwriting the correct bind pose
inputs based off a locator (*cough*null!*cough*) constrained to a
vertex on the source mesh or whatever. (That is a whole other problem,
as constraining to a cluster doesn't exist natively, but something
like the ever-so-popular "rivet" script or something like it might do
the trick.)

You will still need an equivalent of the clone like with the XSI way.
I forget what Maya's equivalent is called.

Good luck!
Cheers,

-- Alan

[Marco Peixoto]

Alan: Yes Alan tried everything :)

Steven: Dont worry m8 this is something that is bothering me and I have been scratching my Head for some time about it until I decided to post about it to see if by any chance someone already had figured it out.

In Maya I think on this particular Rig I have shown they are using the Rivet Script but im 100% not sure. I also tried using the super nice Shader.Op geometry Constraint  (  http://shaderop.com/projects/geometry-constraint/  )  but I get basically the same results.

[Marco Peixoto]

Instead of a Clone I think in Maya they use a BlendShape that is Live all the time, I think we can do the same in Xsi instead of the Clone but haven't tested it.

I have no clue how to do this in Maya hehehe, My Maya knowledge is basically place keyframes on provided Rigs :)

Tks for the input

Cheers

[Steven Caron]

in my opinion the rivet or cluster constraint doesn't matter. its setting up the controller to have the space you want to edit the animation in and properly compensating the static kine state property so it takes into account the head/rigs movement under body posing.

maybe abandon my rig/tutorial and just use the important bits, map the maya method as close as possible using the clone like maya's deformer order and the bind pose like the kinestate. go through step by step and ask here is there is something that doesn't correlate.

s

[Renato Polimeno]

I´ve done a similar setup recently within Maya: http://vimeo.com/30839503

Basically it is a mix of surf attach, soft mod (deform node) and simple maths to fix double transformations issues. The node`s hierarchy is very important aswell, however, the great pro is that each "sticky" has a few properties to tweak at any time artist need (ie. fallof, radius, intensity - coming from deform node). 

I did a 'dorrito' in XSI once and unlike the soft mod technique, the weight painting makes it a bit annoying since you have to "tweak it manually".. Have you guys tried new approachs or diferent things from 'classic dorrito' technique? Just curious ;)

Cheers,

--

______________________________

 

-> Renato Polimeno

+55 11 7539 3615 

site. renatopolimeno.com

facebook. renato.polimeno

twitter. @renatopolimeno

skype. renatopolimeno

[Steven Caron]

i haven't revisited the dorito workflow in years. i really like your maya setup... maybe you could port it to softimage?

[Alan Fregtman]

Hmmm... Maya's "Softmod" is a whole lot like XSI's "Volume Deform"
tool. Here's a take on doritos with volume deformers instead of
enveloped nulls:
http://www.screencast.com/t/R1TjjFR02pI9

No weighting and no kinestate trickery required. Just give parents to
the volume deforms and constrain those to the original head. In the
cloned head you use the "deform->by volume" and add them one by one
and make sure you toggle on the "Envelope Mode" checkbox in the
"Proportional Volume Operator" ops it will make on the cloned mesh.

I've also got doritos working with "deform->by spine" with an ICE hack
but I don't have time to explain that one right now.

[Marco Peixoto]

Alan,

I decided to try your new take on Doritos with a Volume Deform and it worked like expected and then I decided to be stubborn once again and gave it another go but this time making it the old way with the Envelope and the Static Kine trick.

Since you method worked wonders and  initially the Volume Deformer wasn't following the Rotation of the Head CTRL like in a Parent Relation I decided to also Parent the Constrained Null to the Head Bone, since it gave me no warnings about double transformations or Cycles I went ahead and muted the Volume Deform Effect and tried this time with an Envelope instead of the Effect. I used the Volume Deformer Object simply because it was already there in place, just muted the Volume Def. effect first...

Constrained the Volume Def. Father null to a point Cluster on the Original Mesh just like old way and didn't checked the Tangency or the Normal options, Enveloped the some points of  Clone to the Vol.Def.Object, made the Static Kine connections and what ya know.. its just works :)

Everything works (so far) like I was expecting, no Axis turning around or getting misaligned and it was you method that gave me idea to Parent the Constrained 2 Cluster Null to the Head CTRL and try it once again,so:

- Thank you Alan i owe you a couple of beers and also thank you Renato for showing us your Maya setup and telling us more about the Soft Mod wich made Alan engage on a new method and of course Steve for thel Dorrito workflow and idea originally  :)))

Humm... I guess I owe beers to all of you guys then ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq0eHMcZZhE

Cheers guys

[Steven Caron]

awesome! i feel like there should be continued progress in this area but there aren't as many people making rigs/techniques for softimage as in maya. at least not ones they can share with the public.

i hope you can find the time to put it in a production rig and share some more video or explanation sometime.

[Marco Peixoto]

Yeah even knowing that Softimage is a beast we keep seeing all the great Rigs coming from Maya, although lately there have been a change with Gear as an Autorigger and the latest Malcom Rig.

I'm not a TD and I cant code 2 lines, I'm a simple Animator that started rigging to see he's needs fulfilled until the extent of my knowledge prevents to me go further.

I crave for REAL Rigging Tutorials like they exist for Maya, it's not always simple to try to convert Maya tutorials into Softimage and now with ICE I was already expecting to have at least 1 or 2 more advanced payed Tutorials available from some real world production Softimage TD's, they are out there but it seems to are always too busy ;)

[Steven Caron]

example(s) please?

[Raffaele Fragapane]

I would argue I haven't seen that many brilliant rigging tutorials for Maya either ;)

A lot of convoluted, overcomplicated, beginner's "hey I had this great idea" like the "ribbon spine" (also known as the spastic spine, or the 8k spine given it required 8 grands worth of maya just to compute normals instead of the 2k version one), but still have to see, for any platform, a tutorial addressing the real problems and solutions of most components of a rig, or rigs that have any thought put into abstracting and then solving the general design challenges in creature rigging.

/rant

[Marco Peixoto]

Examples of cool Softimage Rigs/Tds?, sure I have some :

- http://www.nico-tine.com/blog/

- http://vimeo.com/10811617

- http://vimeo.com/2354787

- http://vimeo.com/7541940

- http://vimeo.com/3580355

- http://vimeo.com/10995358  :)

[Marco Peixoto]

Lol Raffaele, but you are on a different level that the majority of us and specially me :p

[Steven Caron]

i was looking for 'real rigging tutorials like they exist for maya' not softimage examples. also i was looking for tutorials not reels or demos.

i asked so i could get an idea of what you think is lacking on the softimage side.

[Marco Peixoto]

Ohh sorry misunderstand you then.

I like Jason Schleifer Tutorials, since I can say that I got from him mostly what I know now ( which is not much to be honest :) )

http://jasonschleifer.com/afr/

Before these he had the Fast Animation Rigs from Alias but by today standards they are somewhat basic.

Then theres these that also showing its age and have the 8K Spine like Raffaele called it ;)

http://www.fahrenheitdigital.com/dvds/rigging/

What I personally think is lacking on Softimage side is showing/teaching how to make:

- IK-FK Limbs that can pass from IK to FK by the click of a button and they maintain the same position, same for passing from World to Local or other Pose Constraints.

- Soft IK's and Independent Joint stretching 

- Bendable Arms to all sides without the flipping issues usually attached to them

- Non flipping Arm Rolls that we can keep twisting and the Mesh wont get all mangled (Gear does this by the way)

- System that allow to build a Mirror Pose/Opposite into the Rig

- Facial Rigs, the Malcom rig from AnimSchool is incredible to me

Some of this I can do with lots of fiddling around and praying that it wont break during the animation, others (majority) I' m totally clueless  :)

[Steven Caron]

ah, i have jason's tutorials... good stuff.

[Jack Kao]

I think Andy Nicolas has a really nice Soft IK tutorial. He goes over the math behind it and everything.

Very in-depth and comprehensive,  is that what you were looking for? @ Marco

 

http://www.andynicholas.com/?p=88

 

as for IF FK matching, AnimSchool’s Malcolm has that feature, and it’s a free rig you just have to sign up and agree to their terms of use.

It comes with video instructions and everything.

 

http://www.animschool.com/DownloadOffer.aspx

 

 

 

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Steven Caron
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 8:07 AM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Second control layer after shapes

 

ah, i have jason's tutorials... good stuff.

[Ben Davis]

Nice idea using volume deforms. It won't really work for the lips area in my case since it grabs the lower lip along with the top until I open the jaw and *pop* the volume deformer lets the lower lip go. But in areas that have no conflicting deformations it's great (and a lot simpler since there's no weights to paint!).

Ben

[Ben Davis]

I knew I posted that too quickly... just had to apply the volume deform to a cluster, no lower lip problems!

--

Benjamin Clifford Davis

3D artist

www.bcdavis.info

[Renato Polimeno]

Q:

Besides a cluster (sets of vertex), is it possible to paint a weight map as 'influence map' of volume deform ? 

[Matt Morris]

Seems relevant to the discussion - this guy is doing some n-ice deformation stuff!

http://vimeo.com/36009186 

--
www.matinai.com

[Steven Caron]

nice stuff... but his setup is missing the one of the points of a 'sticky lips' feature. the jaw/teeth opens inside the mouth before the lips do, his setup opens after the teeth after they are visible.

[Renato Polimeno]

@Matt: Reminds me these chadvernon/sticky-lips-deformer, riggerman/automatic-sticky-lips-solution-script

[Alan Fregtman]

You can store the point positions before and after (with ICE) then do a Linear Interpolate between them with a weight map's weights ICEattribute plugged into the Blend.

Bit of a hack, but it works. :p

  -- Alan