ICE Modelling
Eugen Sares
ICE Modelling definitely looks amazing!!
Questions arise:
- how about animating Topology changes? Is it possible to create
grow/assemble-animations of all kinds?
Where in the Operator Stack can an ICE Topology Operator reside?
- how about Clusters? Until now it was not possible to write access them
in a Custom Topo Op.
Has this problem been addressed? In the standard-SDK as well as in ICE M.?
How about automatically generating Clusters with Material assignments?
- is it possible to access/modify standard Nurbs Curves/Subcurves, besides
ICE strands?
Best regards,
Eugen
Luc-Eric Rousseau
of an ICE Modeling tree.
For clusters, it is not possible to create clusters in an ICE tree (or
any operator), because it is not possible to modify to modify the
scene graph during the evaluation of an operator. But an ICE Modeling
tree will automatically update existing clusters on the object as you
add or delete components, like the 'add point' or 'add edge' operators
do in XSI. For procedural material assignment, XSI has been modified
to be able to also work with material IDs on polygons instead of
clusters. In other words, which material to use is an attribute on
polygons.
Modifying nurbs and curves are not supported in this version.
Eugen Sares
Am 07.03.2011, 20:59 Uhr, schrieb Luc-Eric Rousseau <luce...@gmail.com>:
> It's possible to animate topology changes by animating the parameters
> of an ICE Modeling tree.
I see.
Example that comes to my mind is an extrusion animation of "branches",
where each branch grows more sub-branches after a certain "age", and the
sub-branches sub-sub-branches and so on.
>
> For clusters, it is not possible to create clusters in an ICE tree (or
> any operator), because it is not possible to modify to modify the
> scene graph during the evaluation of an operator.
I don't fully get it. What's the difference between 1. altering topology
and 2. altering a Cluster?
Why is 1. "legal", whereas 2. means altering the Scene Graph?
If an Op has a port connection to a Cluster, theoretically it should be
able to change it.
It's not deleting or creating a Cluster, after all.
> But an ICE Modeling
> tree will automatically update existing clusters on the object as you
> add or delete components, like the 'add point' or 'add edge' operators
> do in XSI.
Since I'm (still...) writing some curve-related tools, I came across the
problems.
Sometimes SI logs a warning that "Clusters have been updated", sometimes
not.
Please can you shed some light under the bonnet? This chapter is not quite
well documented afaik.
Obviously there's some automatism going on already, always was. But why
just for factory Ops, and not for Custom Ops?
Or does it? When?
Now it's good to hear that ICE Modelling Ops are supported by this
automatism, too.
Did something change in the standard SDK as well?
For example, the "Extrude Op" on Polygons:
- select a Poly
- create a Cluster from it
- select the same Poly again
- CTRL-D, extrude
- now the Cluster contains the newly created Polys as well.
What happens here?
I suppose SI checks the Component indices after the Operator, compares
them to the Clusters and updates those, something like that.
Also, there's a "Merge" Compound in ICE Modelling.
I suppose it cannot merge Clusters and Cluster Properties, then?
> For procedural material assignment, XSI has been modified
> to be able to also work with material IDs on polygons instead of
> clusters. In other words, which material to use is an attribute on
> polygons.
Nice!!
Allow me to express a suspicion: Clusters are giving you a good headache,
and you are trying to bypass them now...
By the way: it would be super cool if Curves could store Material ID
attributes as well, per segment!
If you extrude these Curves, the extruded Polys would have the right ID
already, without the need to select them first.
The "Curves to Mesh" Op has the option "Create Polygon Clusters, per
Island/per Section", but in comparison, this ain't really handy, because
it does not update automatically, and it does not work on a per-segment
basis.
By the way: how does this Operator/PPG handle the creation of Clusters??
3ds max always had exactly this - MatIDs per Curve Segment. A tiny litte
feature, but a massive ease in workflow.
>
> Modifying nurbs and curves are not supported in this version.
:(
So "Set Topology" is not implemented for Curves and Surfaces yet? Is it
planned?
Cheers,
Eugen
Fabricio Chamon
example, is it possible (on an empty mesh) to build one polygon by
feeding an array of point positions?
Eric Thivierge
--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
Technical Director
http://www.ethivierge.com
Sebastian Kowalski
Fabricio Chamon
thanks
Alan Fregtman
Ed
Eugen Sares
got some more probing questions, sorry...
- Clusters:
It's logical that in a Custom Operator Clusters cannot be created/deleted,
because the Scene Graph mustn't be changed.
But wow about changing the content of existing Clusters after topo ops? Is
this handled automatically internally?
Seems to be, at least partially.
Sometimes a warning is thrown when I apply my Curve Topo Ops:
"WARNING : 3000 - Problems have been automatically fixed on the following
cluster and/or its cluster properties with no data loss:"
Obviously there's a mechanism checking for Cluster validity, but why is it
throwing a warning instead of simply doing it's job?
Another problem with my CurveList Topo Ops:
when Components (Subcurves) are added, they cannot be selected afterwards.
There's a workaround: apply a factory Curve Op first (Clean for example).
So what's the factory Op doing different than the Custom Op?
Is this related to the Cluster update problem? Maybe because the
selectable Components are a type of internal Cluster?
Any changes/fixes here in 2012?
- In ICE Modelling, Material IDs are used instead of Clusters. Why?
- CurveLists:
Will "Set Topology" support them in future versions?
-Extrusions:
As everybody knows, until now the way SI handles Curve Extrusions is quite
unsatisfactory.
So can it easily be done ICE Modelling now?
There's the "Create Extrusion along Strands" node in ICE Modelling, but
you need a "Create Strand from Curves" first.
Why isn't there a "Create Extrusion along CurveList"?
Why the detour via Strands? What's so bad about Curves?
Anyway, will the Strands at least match the exact shape of the CurveList,
plus all it's Subcurves?
- ICE Modelling/Merge Compound:
Will it merge Clusters/Properties/UVs as well?
If so, is this kind of replacing GATOR?
TIA for the info!
Best,
Eugen
Guillaume Laforge
No, ICE modeling will be done in the ...modeling region only.
Guillaume Laforge
Software Developer / Développeur de logiciels
Softimage
Autodesk Canada Co.
10 Duke Street
Montreal, QC, H3C 2L7
Direct 514 954 7195
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From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ed
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 6:54 AM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: ICE Modelling
Guillaume Laforge
In short, because it is more flexible :).
As you can set your MaterialID attribute using ICE, you can do some animated switch of your materials for each polygon if you want.
You can define some specific material libraries (like an custom renderer library, an OGL library etc...) and then switch all your objects to the needed library using just a Select Case in ICE.
Clusters are not designed to behave like this. Like you can't animate the deletion or creation of some scene objects, you can't animate the cluster creation or growing or shrinking using some animated parameters. Using the ICE MaterialID attribute, you can do such things.
The area were clusters are better for now is on the UI interaction. It is very easy to apply some materials, on clusters for example. The ICE MaterialID/Materials attributes are designed to give you all the control, but you can still use cluster for simple work.
Cheers
Guillaume Laforge
-----Original Message-----
From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Eugen Sares
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 7:20 AM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: ICE Modelling
Eugen Sares
May I ask, wre you working for AD?
We've been talking about Subcurves before... obviously regular NurbsCurves
did not receive any love again, not even with ICE Modelling.
Which would be fine for me as long as the SDK would provide everything one
needs, but as I'm trying to report: Subcurves created inside a Topo Op are
not selectable, except with a stupid workaround.
You said recently, it has to do with Clusters, so I'm asking.
This selection problem actually feels more like a bug. Can't be by design.
Do you know how SI manages to keep Clusters in sync with the factory ops?
Why is this a problem with Custom Ops?
Anyway, I'm finishing OffsetSubcurves and BlendSubcurves shortly, and be
done with the Curvetools.
Would have been great though if this were possible in ICE, too, but no,
again.
(JScript is kinda slow, and I ain't got no ambition to mess with C++ here)
=/
Cheers!
Eugen
Am 10.03.2011, 16:14 Uhr, schrieb Guillaume Laforge
<guillaum...@autodesk.com>:
Guillaume Laforge
Yes, I'm one of the main dev on ICE modeling at AD under the supervision of Philippe Cournoyer-Mandeville !
> We've been talking about Subcurves before... obviously regular NurbsCurves
>did not receive any love again, not even with ICE Modelling.
I know that we need better curve tools in Softimage (and you remember I sent you the source code of my Merge Curve op last year ;). But we just can't add every possible modeling feature in ICE Modeling version 1.0 ! Nurbs (curve and surfaces) would be very useful using ICE Modeling for sure !
> Do you know how SI manages to keep Clusters in sync with the factory ops?
> Why is this a problem with Custom Ops?
You are asking this question every months right ? ;)
All I can say is that some internal mechanism for updating clusters are not exposed in the SDK.
Cheers !
Szabolcs Matefy
considering the curvature of the surface?
Cheers
Szabolcs
Guillaume Laforge
For example, deleting some polygons along an edge loop using a Null to define the first edge (the closest one of the Null) will be possible.
Cheers,
Eugen Sares
<guillaum...@autodesk.com>:
>> May I ask, wre you working for AD?
>
> Yes, I'm one of the main dev on ICE modeling at AD under the supervision
> of Philippe Cournoyer-Mandeville !
>
Great to hear, congratulations!! As I see it, you guys are in the position
to change the game between all the 3d-apps quite a bit.
>> We've been talking about Subcurves before... obviously regular
>> NurbsCurves
>> did not receive any love again, not even with ICE Modelling.
>
> I know that we need better curve tools in Softimage (and you remember I
> sent you the source code of my Merge Curve op last year ;).
I remember quite well, of course. Your MergeInFirstSelectedCurve code was
an important piece of information for the Curvetools.
I rewrote them in JScript, with compensation for input curves. (Called it
"AttachCurves", and put it in Model>Modify>Curve)
By the way:
a similar Op for PolyMeshes would be handy, too, so the "Boolean Union"
workaround becomes obsolete.
Looks like a very simple thing to do with ICE Modelling.
> But we just can't add every possible modeling feature in ICE Modeling
> version 1.0 ! Nurbs (curve and surfaces) would be very useful using ICE
> Modeling for sure !
>
I'm glad anyway that it's you in the right place now. So one fine day...
>> Do you know how SI manages to keep Clusters in sync with the factory
>> ops?
>> Why is this a problem with Custom Ops?
>
> You are asking this question every months right ? ;)
> All I can say is that some internal mechanism for updating clusters are
> not exposed in the SDK.
You got me!
I kept on asking because I never got an answer, not even: stop asking,
this' a secret... ;}
(maybe this top-secret uber-mechanism will get an update, too, in the
years to come)
>
> Cheers !
>
> Guillaume Laforge
Thanks and best regards,
Eugen