exocortex final word

[Andy Moorer]

So what's the final word, is the exocortex fluid initiative for XSI totally dead? The stuff thiago posted (http://vimeo.com/groups/ice/videos/7627715) was exciting enough that I'd really like to hear some positive news. Any hope of seeing any of this stuff become public?

[adrian wyer]

bump

 

---

[Eric Thivierge / XSI Database]

As Thiago has stated in the other thread, you can contact them for licensing the smoke simulator.

The partnership that was previously established with Softimage (the company) was dissolved a little while after the acquisition.

--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
Technical Director
http://www.ethivierge.com

[adrian wyer]

/rant

 

Sorry for speaking somewhat drunkenly and out of turn, but this is a prime example of Autodesk dropping the ball, if anything was going to underscore the power of ICE, it was going to be a sh*t fast reliable fluid sim engine…..one to shame the abortion that is maya fluids

 

I have spent the last umpteen years watching max get cool plugin after cool plugin with a simple, dumbed down one button solution for things like volumetrics/hyper voxels, fire, liquids, fur, etc etc and have had the carrot of “it’s totally open to development” with xsi dangled in front of me, only to see NOTHING offered up for public consumption

 

Can I let it be known here, in a public forum, that there is NOTHING wrong with puch button solutions if they are applicable to the task at hand, witness FUME!

 

 

I know I could drop soft and retool for an in-glorious max/maya future, but after all these years I am still a hardcore believer, despite being disappointed time and again

 

/end drunken rant

 

Merry xmas

 

a

 

---

[Eric Thivierge / XSI Database]

Also to be mentioned,

I believe from what I've heard (could be wrong) that they had to stop the dev from Exocortex because it was a conflict with AD proprietary work already being done at AD.

--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
Technical Director
http://www.ethivierge.com

[Steven Caron]

hey adrian, 

fume is cool, but it has its side effects...

we have had to add new servers, new machines, and add multiple terabytes of extra storage. we also still have no better solution to rendering fume that max scanline.

you are right, max gets some awesome plugins and such but i work at blur and i have had enough of our effects work. not because our team isn't talented but because they have to! its standard now, its 'acceptable' but i dont think it is.

we got fume in ever shot, explosions everywhere, things that shouldn't break like a voronoi break like pefect little voronoi pebbles... not because we think thats what stuff breaks like, but because its a limitation of the plugin.

now hair!... we still use max scanline to render that because max/mentalray is littered with issues and it looks like crap.. we use cloth to simulate it because the plugin that can simulate it doesn't render it right. styling is an issue and in fact our hair td uses softimage's grooming tools instead :)

so its great to have plugins, but if you have to buy a new plugin every time you hit the limit of another you would be broke and you always run the risk of the next plugin not doing something the previous one did... and good effing luck getting them to work together.

the grass is always greener on the other side.. until you step in dog shit.

s

[Steven Caron]

and by the way... i would look into blender if you want a free fluid/volume rendering option since if you go with max you going to have to comp it back in anyways

s

[Bradley Gabe]

Hey guys, sorry to be a party pooper... but before someone who has fewer degrees of separation between himself and a legal department ends up on here thwacking people with rolled up newspapers, I would recommend those of us who have signed NDA's for past or present beta programs honor those agreements.

In my view, it's not about threat of legal recourse, but rather what is best for our community. I want to see more cool things developed for SI and ICE. Of course, having a fast and flexible fluid solution in ICE would have been a big bonus for all of us. However, what do we stand to gain by spreading rumors and speculation? If anything, it lowers us in the eyes of those who need to trust us, the very people who have the most capacity to improve the situation.

B

[Eric Thivierge / XSI Database]

My appologies, I agree Brad. Spreading speculative/rumorous info isn't good for anyone. Will officially feel thwacked regardless.

--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
Technical Director
http://www.ethivierge.com

[Matt Lind]

I think it's a relevant question to ask what happened to the deal.  Far too often things just go silent without explanation which, in my opinion, is the unprofessional way to go about it as it's highly disrespectful to the customer.  People make important decisions based on deals like this one, many of which involve large sums of money changing hands.  If a deal is terminated, customer(s) should be notified.  Sure, it's a black eye to the company, but it's also the right thing to do.

 

The reason people speculate and rumor is because of the lack of information coming out.  If the company would make a statement to address the issue, the rumors and speculation would, for the most part, stop.

 

Matt

 

 

 

---

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Bradley Gabe
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 12:30 PM

To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: exocortex final word

[Andy Moorer]

Yep. I haven't signed any NDA, and I'm in a position where again and again I have to argue to keep XSI as even a serious consideration for production work. It gets very difficult to explain to producers why they should put up with difficulties finding talent and general lack of third-party solutions. 

Elegance or simplicity of use often isn't a prime consideration for guys who sign the checks. If "package X" isn't as robust it's not a concern to them when there are also a million "package X" users and a host of generic plugins they can throw at the problem. 

Sure, that's not the right way to think to achieve quality results. But if you present a businessman with a choice between an underdog which doesn't appear to have the enthusiastic support of it's owners or an alternative which is being used all over the place, what do you think they are going to choose? A couple of artist advocates who may be totally in the right as to which software is better still aren't going to outweigh the reasons for them to choose a "standard" software.

Right now XSI is locked in. Studios which "get it" and use XSI to leverage their success are great, but what I'm not seeing is enough growth - using XSI as a core pipeline tool still represents great risk. 

In my opinion unless we see some changes, XSI is on it's way out. Despite it being, in my opinion, the best software of it's kind. 

And I am not seeing autodesk doing anything that's changing that.

Maybe some of you guys who have the NDA-protected inside word see things differently. If so, I would suggest you get autodesk to understand that they need to demonstrate to the world of producers and businessmen who have final purchasing decisions that XSI is a safe and viable tool they can plan a future business around.

[Thiago Costa]

About the original pourpose of the email, I can't comment much about this and what the strategy was behind each party of the deal. What I can say is that there was a press release stating Exocortex was "collaborating to develop a fluid simulation tool for Softimage". Or something along these lines.

This part became more than true, there was collaboration, there was a lot of people involved from both sides. Exocortex got their plugin done, Softimage got experience on integrating third party tools and whatever they had to open/expose was done as asked.

As I stated on the video published: 
SlipstreamRT for Softimage is a proprietary real-time smoke simulator developed for Softimage’s ICE system in collaboration with [exocortex.com/ Exocortex Technologies, Inc.] This video is posted with permission from Exocortex Technologies, Inc. For licensing information please contact [email:in...@exocortex.com]

So please stop confusion and go contact Exocortex for Licensing if you really have interest on it.

Remember that this video was mostly my effort into this technology, there were a number of people involved and work done so please contact Exocortex.

BTW, Fume doesn't come with 3dsmax, it's an additional $845 for that plugin.
I think it's important to mention this as everyone is kinda expecting everything to come with the application when the talk is Softimage.

-Thiago

2009/12/20 Andy Moorer <andym...@gmail.com>

[Andy Moorer]

Thanks for the follow up Thiago. It's good to know that exocortex has a functional tool they can license out. I'm not as concerned whether the tech is included "in box" or not as much as I was concerned that it was going to be shelved and lost.

 

And I'm also concerned in general with the apparent lack of interest Autodesk has in XSI as compared to the other software in their lineup, and what that means for me as a TD and potential advocate for XSI in the studio I work at. We currently have a hybrid XSI/Maya pipeline, but as we move forward I'm having to answer for why we should spend budget and time on XSI when there are so many sound and valid reasons NOT to use it.

 

Personally I get it and in particularl I am excited and pumped up about ICE. But let's get realistic: instead of seeing autodesk calling attention to amazing footage like your work Thiago, and making a case for the industry to widely adopt XSI, they've got it buried beneath marketing for Maya and Max. Again and again they seem to only show lip-service interest in keeping existing XSI users, much less expanding it's use in television and features. My studio is one of those which has been a dihard supporter of Softimage for decades - but honestly if it wasn't for ICE I would cut it out of our pipeline entirely, because we can't get enough XSI talent, it's expensive for us to try to maintain a hybrid pipeline, and most notably because Autodesk does not appear to me to be serious about making XSI viable over the long term.

 

Anyone who has worked with me knows I am about as enthusiastic a supporter of XSI as there is, but I can't keep arguing for it's use without feeling like Autodesk is going to reciprocate. As a professional when my studio execs ask me to justify our maintaining XSI as a core tool, I have to give them my honest assessment, which I'm airing here. That's why I was asking about what happened with this collaboration - since Autodesk isn't giving us plain speech about XSI's long term future I am trying to glean it from watching what they do and trying to see any hint that there IS a long term future for XSI, or ICE.

[phil]

It seems like no matter what Autodesk wins with your company, right? If you drop Softimage it sounds like you would go completely Maya, so they can't lose, so why should they do anything? There lies the problem for Softimage users. 

 

Phil

----- Original Message -----

From: Andy Moorer

To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:04 PM

Subject: Re: exocortex final word

[Kris Rivel]

Hey if everyone really wants Fume for SI..lets just all ask the Fume team for it!  Squeaky wheel gets the grease right?

Kris

[Stefan Kubicek]

I've been trying to establish XSI in our company for years.
My employers can't tell the difference betwen Max, Maya & Softimage, and my coworkers who know Maya
think they have no reasons to learn something new. Because there are more people working with Maya at our company there are more voices in favour of Maya so this is what we mostly (have to) use.

The bottom line is, as with any good that can be bought: as long as there are paying customers
for something someone else will provide it. In other words: As long as all Maya and Max users
think they are already working with the most efficient tool available they won't switch and will keep buying update after update.
One could now argue that Autodesk could be reasonable and forward-looking and just discontinue an old product to allocate freed development resources to those products that are younger and can look forward to a longer and productive remaining life time.
And then, simply add Autodesks paranoia that people will switch to Houdini and Modo once Max is abandoned, and what you get is
even a core rewrite - the one seasoned Max veterans (me being one of them) have actually been waiting for since Version 4, instead of letting an already dead horse finally die and keep building upon the modern (and presumably cheaper to maintain) architecture that Softimage already represents.

http://area.autodesk.com/blogs/ken/excalibur_xbr_notes

Or maybe there is actually some magic formula that says: with 3 Products doing more or less the same you can make more money than with just one tool doing everything the three separate ones did before.

The sad thing about it is that most people I know working with Maya haven't used or even tested Softimage in any way.
This is not only true of Softimage. Autodesk has been trying to push Revit into the market in favour of Autocad for years now,
but there are so many Architects and small shops still using Autocad because they think it's good and efficient enough for them, that they have simply not enough incentives to learn Revit. So ADSK keeps maintaining ACAD.

In the end it's always the same story: As long as there are enough lazy people hanging on to old habits
Maya and Max will stay, as will pesticides in our food and excessive carbon dioxide emissions into our atmosphere.

[Thiago Costa]

I think there was a time where this email would freak out people at
Soft.
Right now, this has very small impact to Autodesk and they might even
suggest you to go full on maya if that makes you happy.
Trying to be very honest here.

In my opinion, what could help is let Autodesk education/trainning/web
people know about the lack of information about the product you pay for.

Other than that, I really disagree with this pessimistic view
specially after seeying that two dev cycles are goimg strong and that
there's people designing and caring with the product.
The number of bugfixes surprised me lately to say the least. And I
don't think invest in bugfixes and such is a move of a company looking
to kill a product.
No question they make profit out of xsi and it's their own interest to
keep doing so.

I also noticed an increased number of people curious about Softimage
in forums, and I think the userbase has never shrinked so there's for
sure some constant grow on this whole thing.

I think there's still a lot of pessimism on the heart of xsi users
that wanted xsi to be as big and bug as maya and max. I personally
don't care of being that big.
I think having a bigger community would be great but just for the fact
that we can still relate people and studios by the name makes this a
very special group. That can largely influence the design of features
and general direction of the software.
Power to the people!

Ultimately, your company would increase productivity if you had more
xsi people, maybe it's time to get some training for them or ask
people to have xsi knowledge.
Looking at the xsibase jobs lately there's quite an active number of
people hiring xsi talent and some looking, maybe ask autodesk to put
more xsi talent out there? Balance out things?

This is just my personal view of things and I might have been too
optimistic lately but I really dot think the situation is that bad
anymore.

-thiago

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 20-Dec-09 à 12:04 PM, Andy Moorer <andym...@gmail.com> a écrit :

[Oscar Juarez]

I couldn't agree with Thiago more.

Yeah probably Softimage isn't that big as the others, and have some flaws and limitations that make it hard to work with.

One of those limitations is indeed the userbase, but people can be trained of course it depends if you have the resources for that.

We are doing a feature film in Mexico City, the natural decision would be to use Maya for the task, since there is a lot of Maya people around

now even more than Max wich was the king some years ago. But I pushed Softimage because for the type of studio we are building from the ground up

it's more flexible off the shelf, we don't have a research and development team, I might be the most technical guy in the studio, and that's saying much

because I'm really not that technical, but we were able to setup something with mostly maya people with the proper training. And people gets amazed of 

what can be done with Softimage, working non linearly, doing face rigs with ICE, transfering atributes between geometries, so we are being able to do 

good things with a small team.

When the studio producers were negotiating with Autodesk for volume licensing, at first they budgeted maya licenses, after we settled for Softimage

Autodesk guys freaked out like if we were going with the competition. And we had some dissent voices in the industry like we were doing the worst

mistake ever. I'm very happy because after this project there will be a lot more users wich knows softimage, before this I knew almost all Softimage users

and could count them with my fingers. And when we present our teaser I hope people get excited about it and I'm sure more people will get interested

in Softimage.

Just wanted to share this with everyone in hope that the pessimism can dilute a bit.

[Graham D Clark]

On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 9:57 PM, Thiago Costa <thiago...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think there was a time where this email would freak out people at Soft.
> Right now, this has very small impact to Autodesk and they might even
> suggest you to go full on maya if that makes you happy.

Well thats not going to make Andy happy.

> In my opinion, what could help is let Autodesk education/trainning/web
> people know about the lack of information about the product you pay for.

IMO Softimage hasn't had real training or effective edu program since
Pierre Tousignant left in like 2000.

> Other than that, I really disagree with this pessimistic view specially
> after seeying that two dev cycles are goimg strong and that there's people
> designing and caring with the product.

I think Andys "pessism"/concern is not about the product, its about
his frustration trying to keep Softimage being used. He prefers it,
but its tough facing all those producers that do the hiring and
budgets.
Oscar it sounds like you had to fight to get Softimage used over Maya
just like I did at Paramount and Warner Brothers. I deferred on Fusion
over Nuke as a gesture for requiring XSI over Maya, I wanted Nuke
given the job we had and its stronger aspects, but like maya, fusion
at the time had a larger available user base and most of the lighters
and TDs asked for fusion. I regret that decision now, ironically so do
those lighters given the job availalbities in Nuke now. I don't regret
using XSI, it saved our ass due to its non-linearity, functioning ref
models and render passes compared to mayas.
Oscar imagine now if youre studio and producers that saw your success
with Softimage told you theyd like to go to Maya, and given what
you've accomplished, try not to write something like Andy did.

I think you guys are missing Andys point, he knows Softimage is great
and is being developed, I think he just feels its not getting
attention or a clear statement about its future.
Andy I feel your pain, getting XSI used at WB on our gig took some
convincing. But Marc Stevens, Michael Isner, Jentzen Mooney, Merten
Stroetzel etc did a great job helping ease their issues. Lots of great
people are still at Soft.

Here in NYC, there's some great commercial houses with a core of
Softimage senior users surrounded by Maya juniors, Im guessing due to
availability. But Ive seen a few of the top very smart nice guys
preferring and switching or wanting to switch to Softimage.

I don't know what to say Andy except keep making things in ICE that
are better and faster made there, and as they add more features to
ICE, more reasons will arise to use it over Maya, and in split
software pipes eventually more will be done in Softimage.

Softimage is a great product and many other superior products have not
won out with the masses, but it'd be shame if it disappeared due to
user base size.
If Houdini is surviving with smaller userbase why shouldn't Softimage?
Theres still some great reasons to use Maya, and in the same respect
wouldn't want to see those go away if Soft gained a lot of ground.

I actually think theres something positive in Autodesk not going with
Exortex if that rumor is true, it opens the door to integration of
some great Autodesk IP into Softimage without potential legal issues.

My 2 cents for Andys soapbox.
--
Graham D Clark, telephone: fad-take-two,
http://www.linkedin.com/in/grahamclark

[Matt Lind]

> IMO Softimage hasn't had real training or effective edu program since
> Pierre Tousignant left in like 2000.

Pierre left around 2003/2004. But even the last few years he was around
there wasn't much going on in the training sector. I flew to Montreal and
got certified in 1999, and nothing has happened, that I can think of,
since.. Every Siggraph an idea would be presented, and by Thanksgiving that
same year it would be abandoned. The training market went through a big
evolution from onsite to online during this time. Although training could
be better, it's not the problem. The product is the problem. Fix the
product and people will come.

> If Houdini is surviving with smaller userbase why shouldn't Softimage?

Because Houdini can do very important niche things the other packages cannot
do. The same cannot be said about Softimage. You might entertain the
thought of face robot, but it's not mature enough. same for ICE.

While people can get upset with Maya users for not looking at Softimage, you
can't blame them for sticking with something that gets the job done however
un-elegant you make think it is. The #1 risk for Softimage falling by the
wayside is failing to address needs and plugging the holes that exist - and
doing it ASAP. Looking over the past 12 years or so, Softimage has had a
tendency to come up with some innovative idea, hype it as the next best
thing, integrate it, then fail to finish the job for whatever reason before
moving onto something else. As a result, there are many holes in the
software that are serious roadblocks to getting work done. This is why
people give up and go to Maya or Max. They don't want to be frustrated.
They don't want to have to think about their tools to use them. They just
want to make art. Most of us on this list have a lot more patience than the
average Joe. Unfortunately, the average Joe makes up about 80% of the
market. The average Joe takes the path of least resistance. Until somebody
figures out how to make Softimage the path of least resistance, it ain't
gonna happen.

Matt

[David Barosin]

Why is Softimage not the path of least resistance?  It's the whole reason I use it.

What are the roadblocks?

[Graham D Clark]

On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 12:56 AM, Matt Lind <spey...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> same year it would be abandoned.  The training market went through a big
> evolution from onsite to online during this time.  Although training could
> be better, it's not the problem.

Yes it is one of the problems, relative to Andys and my issue,
convincing studios and producers to not go Maya from Softimage, is
almost entirely due to available cheap talent, and due to the many
studios using maya and schools primarily teaching maya/max.

I should have been clearer, I think youre talking professional or
additional to school training that you were involved in, Im talking
students at college or univeristy who've invested thousands of hours
using maya and seen really nothing else yet to decide or realize they
need additional training.

As an aside, for professional training to get them up to speed on soft
or nuke whatever, as the industry becomes more freelance based I'm
being told by studios that they are less interested in getting
training for non-staff, even free on a product at their studio.

>> If Houdini is surviving with smaller userbase why shouldn't Softimage?
>
> Because Houdini can do very important niche things the other packages cannot
> do.  The same cannot be said about Softimage.  You might entertain the
> thought of face robot, but it's not mature enough.  same for ICE.

In the commercial world here, ICE is already filling a niche Maya
cannot that Houdini could have which is promising.
But Im happy using Houdini too :)

>
>Softimage has had a
> tendency to come up with some innovative idea, hype it as the next best
> thing, integrate it, then fail to finish the job for whatever reason before
> moving onto something else.

yeah like the mixer, fxtree, etc

> market.  The average Joe takes the path of least resistance.  Until somebody
> figures out how to make Softimage the path of least resistance, it ain't
> gonna happen.

Softimage is the path of least resistance, try using Maya and Houdini
in production.

To me the resistance is still primarily available employees for
studios and producers and what they know already, not whats best in
the long run.

Same reason everyone here in NYC uses After Effects instead of Nuke to
do shots that could be done in a tenth the time with client revisions,
in proper color space, with less unnecessary Flame time dealing with
crunched files. But, they all know After Effects.

But who knows, Cinema 4D is everywhere here in Motion Graphics. Where
do they teach that around here?

[Jordi Bares]

Are you sure of that? Because I am sure I won't.

jb

[Graham D Clark]

btw Im not referring to studios Ive been very fortunate to work at in
NYC, they are extremely strong users of Softimage. ;)

But Matt where I agree with you about it being the product for me is
no s3d support after years of requests. I dont mention Softimage when
I consult for s3d projects.

--

[Andy Moorer]

Right don't get me wrong guys I feel strongly that XSI is the best and most flexible app out there, and that it's future from a software development standpoint is bright. But that doesn't mean much if the studios which adopt the software are rare exceptions.

In my opinion it's not acceptable to be content with XSI being a rarely-used tool in the industry as a whole. That's how software dies. 

When Autodesk purchased softimage, they took over ownership of software with incredible capabilities which are largely unrecognized except within it's user base. And in my opinion they are doing nothing to help XSI become more widely adopted and recognized as a viable and powerful tool for high end production.

I shouldn't have to argue and fight to keep XSI in our pipeline - producers and upcoming artists should already be informed and enthused by the product. This is a failing in education and marketing which I need to see Autodesk correct, so I can look executives in the eye and give them an honest and informed assurance that choosing XSI as a primary tool is a good move.

The argument that we can offset the problem of a lack of skilled XSI users by implementing training, well, that sounds good. But that assumes a burden on the studo which doesn't exist with Maya. 

Training takes time, money, and retasking of artists to train others rather than produce. And training programs don't help when a company survives by quickly assembling skilled teams to deal with opportunities as they arise. You aren't going to win a bid on a project if you factor in additional time and money to train a crew. 

I'm not saying it can't be done, Graham's done it several times already. But it's another set of arguments you have to have with the guys who sign the checks.

Like Graham said, using XSI saved our tails at Warner Bros. We couldn't have done what we did with any other package. But in the end, the producers STILL didn't understand that. The experience for us was one of XSI's flexibility saving the day, but the experience for them was one of desperately scrounging and hunting for XSI talent and arcane seeming problems being surmounted, problems which wouldn't have occurred in a maya pipeline because the software has already been shaken down in countless productions. All they know is that their competitors seem to be doing fine with Maya, so why (in their view) assume all of these headaches and risks?

Additionally, Autodesk needs to make it perfectly clear that XSI has a future within their company as a flagship product - it's not reasonable to build a studio around a software package which may not be given a compatitive level of support. Like Phil points out, Autodesk wins even if we go with a Maya pipeline: so what assurance do we have that a choice of XSI as a primary tool won't doom us to a "poor stepchild" level of support and growth compared to maya?

Arguments to use XSI: Advanced and elegant software with great flexibility, potential for a hugely powerful capability after a period of investment intelligent pipeline development. Production speed and efficiency can be best-in-industry after that initial investment. Art 'look' and styles can be differentiated from other studios. Ability to solve problems which confound in other software.

Arguments against: Uncertain future. Lack of skilled users. "Shakedown" problems where studios using XSI are far more likely to have to encounter and overcome software issues for the first time. Lack of third party tools, expertise, and support options. Up-front investment of time and expertise needed before potential is realized. Delays and disconnects in capabilities which the rest of the industry obtains and which clients demand. Overall risk that the software will not keep up with the pace of the industry. Need to explain to clients differences in pipeline. Import/export of assets outside the industry "norm" adds headaches and complications. Perceived 'underdog' status can chase away clients. Clients who demand integration with certain tools, renderers or workflows must have solutions (or lack thereof) explained to them. General burden of perceived "risk" in clients eyes. Large numbers of Max and Maya advocates "explaining" to clients and producers the pitfalls and risks of using XSI. Lack of recognition for accomplishments in the industry as a whole due to disinterest in news which "doesn't pertain" to maya or max communities. 

[Bryan Taylor]

For me the problem revolves around the fact that many people find it hard to use Softimage as anything more than an advanced plugin.  Even Blur, from what I understand, uses Soft as a "animation" plugin of sorts for their Max pipeline.  Don't get me wrong I know there are plenty of studios which can get the job done completely in XSI, but it certainly feels to rare.  I am a video game developer, and I think being in such a field tends to highlight the technical limits of a DCC, because with games, we have a lot less wiggle room to 'cheat' the result we need.  There simply is no option to "fix it in post".  

I am not going to argue than Soft should be targeted completely for game devs... quite the opposite really.  I think the VFX field is one of the primary innovation drivers for Games... good VFX techniques usually apply to us once the technique has been properly refined and streamlined.

I will however argue that Soft should be designed to be the top choice for studios that have highly unorthodox pipeline issues to manage.... meaning we need the best data access, management, import/export, and general best friend for anyone who needs a DCC they can rely on playing well with others.  This is where Houdini shines right now.  This is also exactly what ICE is supposed to accomplish for us.  

When ICE allows me to properly manage a full game data import/export pipeline for everything from mesh, skinning, animation, shaders, LOD, and file I/O... we will have a beast for the world to reckon with.

So for me, the problem is that.... by an outsider's view it should already do that.

[Steven Caron]

Our animators barely know how to use max anymore. So No it's not an 'advanced plugin our max pipline', it's how we make things move through our pipeline.

s

[Fabrice Altman]

“I think the future is about having applications like Maya running in a web browser or squetch book running on the iPhone”

Marc Petit, senior VP AD.

http://area.autodesk.com/inhouse/videos/marc_petit_3decemeber_welcome_message

(around 3:05)

 

What do you guys worry about ? They clearly have enough resources to do that sort of stuff !

 

Joking apart, there was a Soft 2010 webminar  presented by Chinny last week. I think it was directed to us in the UK/Europe.

Basically, one of the main points  Chinny was specifically bringing across was that nothing negative happened to Soft since the AD acquisition.

Quite the opposite actually, Softimage could now rely on the vast AD resources and knowledge, etc...

His words were very optimistic, the road ahead looking bright and exciting for Soft.

 

Just wanted to report what I heard there, not comment. The future may, or may not, tell us the same story. Who knows ?

 

F.

 

[Malcolm Zaloon]

I trust in Chinny.

--
__________________
Malcolm Zaloon - Lighting TD - XSI Generalist

[Robert Chapman]

In Chinny... we trust? :D

2009/12/21 Malcolm Zaloon <mzal...@gmail.com>:

[Malcolm Zaloon]

oh yeah.

[Alan Fregtman]

Some news from Exocortex:
http://www.exocortex.com/simulation/slipstreamvx.aspx
http://www.exocortex.com/simulation/licensing.aspx

Looks like the fluids plugin comes out next year and it'll cost around
$500. Nice.

[tak...@earthlink.net]

Over here we've got tons of Maya users crying about how all they got in Maya 2010 was Toxic (like Santa left them a lump of coal on their hard drive), meanwhile they're looking at all the performance tweaks and fixes (overdue, maybe but we ARE getting them and we're getting them under AD management) we've gotten and boy are they unhappy. 

All of which is waaay more than I would have expected before the acquisition and given the fact that the economy completely went to crap afterwards and *still* we're getting new stuff makes it hard (in hindsight) to see the acquisition as anything but a positive thing for Soft users.

-T

[Thomas Helzle]

What makes that plugin "better" than emFluid?

Curious ;-)

Cheers,

Thomas Helzle

2009/12/21 <tak...@earthlink.net>

[peter boeykens]

 

> ... nothing negative happened to Soft since the AD acquisition...

> Quite the opposite actually, ...

 

 

tell that to all the Soft employees that were let go

 

tell that to all the customers that are on v7.01 or prior and can't upgrade,

and those who bought 7.5 a few weeks or even days before 2010 came out and are not receiving the upgrade.

the very idea of Protection of Investment was washed out of the door overnight by AD.

 

Now you have to pay through the nose continually, and the very day you let go, you get dropped.

 

Lets hope they make up for this by keeping Soft alive and kicking - but lets not be too "flower power" about AD...

[gfxm...@gmail.com]

Look at forums like xsibase.com, it's quite "dead" and that started to happen soon after the acquisition.

All the tutorials, the new user plugins, the answer and question about the software.... it'a quite almost gone.

The softimage community forum, that was a late, but very good idea, was shutted down, integrated in the area, an now,nobody goes there, because the area is such a mess....

 

The ice compound upload feature, that was ihmo, one of the core and good idea behind the ice greatness, is dead, and new compounds from user, is now just an "idea", a dead idea. Ice compuond upload and exchage, could have changed the face of xsi, with new tool in form of compound, coming everye month, and not every 18+ month of devolpment cycle.

 

Ice was souch a great idea: it was just 1.0, and we all saw a great future to it: all the deformers, all the phisics, the hair and cloth system, and obiviously, the animation system, was goingo to be replaced with new ice nodes, multithread, modificable nodes.

 

It seems now, that is all gone. They release 100+ ice (verlet integration was is called ? ) compounds, as they were not tested, not integrated, lack of documentation, and the mind behind ice devolpment ( cat developer? ) is gone.

 

Not to talk about mental ray, the lack of a real third party alternative to speed up rendering.

I don't see new modelling tool from about 4 years now, and it's a shame, cause i think that xsi has a strong set of tools, and the stack option witch is such a great value: but look at the modelling and selection tools in modo....

 

Okkey, lel's see what the future brings...

 

gfx

 

 

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: peter boeykens

To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 10:59 AM

Subject: Re: exocortex final word

 

[Eugen Sares]

Hi!
I'm optimistic as long as I see development continue in key areas:
ICE for kinematics and topology creation/changes, and (although in itself
a boring chapter) data exchange.
These things are within reach, and would give SI a degree of flexibility
and ease of use hard to find elsewhere.
Could even mean some kind of breakthrough.

I, too, was frustrated by the ignorance regarding SI in the game company I
was freelancing for last year, and Maya felt like a millstone around the
neck.
Yet, as they say, you can just lead the horse to water, but you can't make
it drink. Only way is to be a VERY good example.
In fact, the introduction of ICE made quite some ripples in the pond, even
among hardcore Maya-users. Put on more bait on the
fishing rod, and they will bite.
In fact, it's an interesting time at the moment. If the right strings are
pulled NOW, this could be it, otherwise this could have been it...

[Matt Morris]

xsibase is more a casualty of the improving fortunes of its founders and moderators than autodesk - as they have got better jobs, moved abroad, started families etc priorities change regarding articles and new content that takes up a time premium. The forum itself is still pretty active though and Bernard is doing a great job with it. SI-Community as a forum has taken off and seems to have a good team of people behind it. The area needs a lot more work to make searching compounds easier and the layout is god-awful, but there is still useful information to be had there... its a shame we had to lose the old softimage community forums though.

2009/12/22 <gfxm...@gmail.com>

--
www.mattmos.com | www.xsilondon.com

[christian keller]

jup, i rarely visit the area. it´s to cluttered, you never find what you are searching for.

[Stephen Blair]

RE: The Area
What bugs me is that it is so hard to follow discussions. I post an answer, and a few hours later it is hard to find that discussion.
You can see only the last two posts, and I don't trust the Active Posts page at all. It's like trying to read a newspaper looking thru a toilet paper roll.

So I put together a Yahoo pipe to combine all the RSS feeds for the Softimage forums:
http://pipes.yahoo.com/softimage/areaforums

Stephen Blair
Product Support Team Lead, Softimage
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Blog<http://xsisupport.wordpress.com/> | KB<http://autodesk.com/softimage-support> | Wiki<http://autodesk.com/softimage-kb>

If you would like to comment on my work, please contact my manager chris....@autodesk.com<mailto:sy.do...@autodesk.com>.
Autodesk Subscription<http://www.autodesk.com/subscription> The smartest way to optimize your software investment.

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of christian keller
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 6:27 AM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: exocortex final word

jup, i rarely visit the area. it´s to cluttered, you never find what you are searching for.

Am 22.12.2009 12:15, schrieb Matt Morris:
xsibase is more a casualty of the improving fortunes of its founders and moderators than autodesk - as they have got better jobs, moved abroad, started families etc priorities change regarding articles and new content that takes up a time premium. The forum itself is still pretty active though and Bernard is doing a great job with it. SI-Community as a forum has taken off and seems to have a good team of people behind it. The area needs a lot more work to make searching compounds easier and the layout is god-awful, but there is still useful information to be had there... its a shame we had to lose the old softimage community forums though.

2009/12/22 <gfxm...@gmail.com<mailto:gfxm...@gmail.com>>
Look at forums like xsibase.com<http://xsibase.com>, it's quite "dead" and that started to happen soon after the acquisition.

All the tutorials, the new user plugins, the answer and question about the software.... it'a quite almost gone.
The softimage community forum, that was a late, but very good idea, was shutted down, integrated in the area, an now,nobody goes there, because the area is such a mess....

The ice compound upload feature, that was ihmo, one of the core and good idea behind the ice greatness, is dead, and new compounds from user, is now just an "idea", a dead idea. Ice compuond upload and exchage, could have changed the face of xsi, with new tool in form of compound, coming everye month, and not every 18+ month of devolpment cycle.

Ice was souch a great idea: it was just 1.0, and we all saw a great future to it: all the deformers, all the phisics, the hair and cloth system, and obiviously, the animation system, was goingo to be replaced with new ice nodes, multithread, modificable nodes.

It seems now, that is all gone. They release 100+ ice (verlet integration was is called ? ) compounds, as they were not tested, not integrated, lack of documentation, and the mind behind ice devolpment ( cat developer? ) is gone.

Not to talk about mental ray, the lack of a real third party alternative to speed up rendering.
I don't see new modelling tool from about 4 years now, and it's a shame, cause i think that xsi has a strong set of tools, and the stack option witch is such a great value: but look at the modelling and selection tools in modo....

Okkey, lel's see what the future brings...

gfx

----- Original Message -----
From: peter boeykens<mailto:pet...@skynet.be>
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:soft...@listproc.autodesk.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: exocortex final word

> ... nothing negative happened to Soft since the AD acquisition...
> Quite the opposite actually, ...

tell that to all the Soft employees that were let go

tell that to all the customers that are on v7.01 or prior and can't upgrade,
and those who bought 7.5 a few weeks or even days before 2010 came out and are not receiving the upgrade.
the very idea of Protection of Investment was washed out of the door overnight by AD.

Now you have to pay through the nose continually, and the very day you let go, you get dropped.

Lets hope they make up for this by keeping Soft alive and kicking - but lets not be too "flower power" about AD...

--
www.mattmos.com<http://www.mattmos.com> | www.xsilondon.com<http://www.xsilondon.com>

[Alan Fregtman]

Can't really be specific cause of the beta NDA, but Phil Taylor is not
gone. He is active in the development of new stuff in the upcoming
version. Just wanted to point that out. :)

[Fabrice Altman]

RE: The Area
What bugs me is that every AD software should have it's own area, or at
least have product filters
That really work properly all the way during browsing.
I would like to have the choice to have a Soft (or Maya, or Max ...)
centric browsing experience when I am logged in,
And not feel like I am inside a washing machine drum if full spin cycle.

F.

[gfxm...@gmail.com]

Are you sure?
http://ca.linkedin.com/pub/philip-taylor/9/a17/828

it seems to me, it's relationship with softimage ended in January , then he
moved to
trapdoor and then to Motion Mechanic

[Xavier Lapointe]

I can confirm Alan's statements.

[gfxm...@gmail.com]

Good :D

----- Original Message -----
From: "Xavier Lapointe" <xl.mail...@gmail.com>
To: <soft...@listproc.autodesk.com>

[Malcolm Zaloon]

"Can't really be specific cause of the beta NDA, but Phil Taylor is not

gone. He is active in the development of new stuff in the upcoming

version. Just wanted to point that out. :)"

oh, this is really exciting.

[Andy Moorer]

In fact, the introduction of ICE made quite some ripples in the pond, even among hardcore Maya-users. Put on more bait on the
fishing rod, and they will bite.
In fact, it's an interesting time at the moment. If the right strings are pulled NOW, this could be it, otherwise this could have been it...

Exactly, well said. ICE can become a game-changer for the entire industry. Is Autodesk getting behind it? Where's Phil? What is Autodesk really focused on? And can't they just be up-front and tell us? We can't develop pipelines around hopes for the future. 

I've got no incentive to have a problem with Autodesk, but they aren't winning me over. Got nothing against Chinny either, but I don't need hopeful hints and plattitudes, I need to know that Autodesk is serious about placing XSI as a flagship tool with as much support, development and marketing effort as they give maya.

And this says it all to me. Go to autodesks site and look under products. Do you see xsi? I don't.

[Andy Moorer]

Good! That's the kind of news I'd like to be hearing from AD. :)

[Jeff McFall]

Noticed the same thing the other day when I was poking around

I find the lack of even a mention on the front of the website rather odd at the least

 

 

 

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Andy Moorer
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 12:26 PM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: exocortex final word

 

 

In fact, the introduction of ICE made quite some ripples in the pond, even among hardcore Maya-users. Put on more bait on the

[Bradley Gabe]

And this says it all to me. Go to autodesks site and look under products. Do you see xsi? I don't.

There's also no Mudbox, or Motion Builder, or many other products.

As XSI users, we've been sort of second class citizens in the CG community for a long time now. You didn't expect that to suddenly change with the ADSK acquisition. :-)

If you want XSI to get more attention, to survive and thrive, it's simple. Go out and do amazing stuff with it.

[Malcolm Zaloon]

this is correct. AD we want THE FRONT page too.

Nothing justify this lack.

[Eric Thivierge / XSI Database]

Wasn't the Milk commercial Psyop did amazing? http://motionographer.com/2009/05/11/psyop-milk-sad-princess-and-medusa/
Any of the recently posted Blur projects....

I'm just saying, there has been many amazing projects done with Softimage. What level of amazingness must be achieved?

--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
Technical Director
http://www.ethivierge.com

[Bradley Gabe]

11

[Dan Yargici]

Hehe! - How much more amazing can you be? the answer is none... None more amazing...

[Eric Thivierge / XSI Database]

Ha ha, nice.

--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
Technical Director
http://www.ethivierge.com

[Rob Wuijster]

most, if not all of this will do just fine ;-)

http://www.florianwitzel.com/

rob

\/-------------\/----------------\/

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.717 / Virus Database: 270.14.116/2580 - Release Date: 12/21/09 20:13:00
>

[Fabrice Altman]

Oh noooooo, I always thought the official Soft unit was awesomness...

 

From: Dan Yargici [mailto:danya...@gmail.com]
Sent: 22 December 2009 17:56
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: exocortex final word

 

Hehe! - How much more amazing can you be? the answer is none... None more amazing...

[peter boeykens]

> Noticed the same thing the other day when I was poking around

> I find the lack of even a mention on the front of the website rather odd at the least

 

well, look under "all products".

Just a text mention of all of the softwares there fills up the screen.

there's sure to allways be a software lacking on the frontpage.

cant see any discreet software either.

 

 

Now when I go to my "local" website ( Netherlands for lack of a Belgian one - there's not even a French language version of the website, so most customers wont be able to find any info period )  and go to Media & Entertainment and look under film, games and television respectively - not once is softimage mentioned!

that is how committed AD is to promoting softimage. seems like they're ashamed to have adopted the little runaway underdog. Perhaps a local anomaly?

 

I can totally understand people in suits with ties that are nervous when asked to invest in a software that’s almost impossible to be found on its website. "Surely if its hidden that well, its end of the line and it cant be around for much longer?"

 

 

 

From: Jeff McFall

Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 6:35 PM

To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

Subject: RE: exocortex final word

[Luc-Eric Rousseau]

On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 6:15 AM, Matt Morris <mat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> xsibase is more a casualty of the improving fortunes of its founders and
> moderators than autodesk - as they have got better jobs, moved abroad,
> started families etc priorities change regarding articles and new content
> that takes up a time premium. The forum itself is still pretty active though
> and Bernard is doing a great job with it. SI-Community as a forum has taken
> off and seems to have a good team of people behind it. The area needs a lot
> more work to make searching compounds easier and the layout is god-awful,
> but there is still useful information to be had there... its a shame we had
> to lose the old softimage community forums though.

indeed it doesn't take much to have a lower volume of posts on the
xsibase.com's sys.tem... All it takes is a couple of users doing
other things because they've got something else going on; a new job,
a new child, etc. It can also be exausting to answer a question one
place, and then see the exact same question posted and replied
sometimes wrongly in another forum. Also, the end of the 500$ entry
point product two years ago made a few hobbyist go to other forum, and
the Mod Tool users are going to XNA forums. Finally, si-community and
a few language-specific (german, spanish) forums have been created or
have grown, further splitting the community. So there are a lot of
factors here at work, and it's not fewer user or the dreaded The Area.
Last time I checked, the softimage mailing list had more than 1100
subscribers. Which is freakin' huge for a mailing list that's hard to
discover in the first place.

[Andy Moorer]

If you want XSI to get more attention, to survive and thrive, it's simple. Go out and do amazing stuff with it.

I think you're wrong here. XSI has been used to do amazing stuff for years, by you and many of the others on this list.

And I'm not saying "I want XSI to get more attention. I'm saying "I want to know that XSI is being given the same level of effort and support by Autodesk as they give Maya." 

Not because I'm jealous or anything silly like that, but because I am trying to establish whether XSI can remain competitive and and honestly answer reasonable questions about whether my studio's investment in XSI should continue.

[Malcolm Zaloon]

how long after the acquisition Maya took to reach the front page?

just ask to every XSI user, if they want Softimage in AD front page promotion... have sure, at least 80% want.

this is obvious, this facilitate to us (TD´s) to sell XSI pipelines more easily.

It is so hard to change some lines of HTML code, to include Softimage on menu!?! I think not.

Malcolm.

[James G. Jones]

At least a couple of those problems you mention could possibly be due
to resellers. Just from my own experience, it made a huge difference
depending on who I was dealing with. Even though I declined to renew
my subscription last February, I was able to change my mind in August
and get back on the train without any hassle, and with no extra
expense. One reseller wouldn't even answer my emails, while another
was eager to help.

-Jim

[peter boeykens]

I agree that resellers (or local branches) are part of the problem.

Last I had Autodesk[NL] on the phone, they were trying to get me to a 3dsmax
seminar. It took an awful lot of time making them realize that as a
Softimage user, I was already on an Autodesk software, and there was no need
to try and get me onto another one. And I'm talking 2 months ago - not one
year.
Perhaps AD should give their sales staff dedicated training to learn all
product names by heart, and to differentiate between competition and their
own. Could avoid some embarrassing situations. :-)