Observations of a new user - Modeling in SI

[Len Krenzler]

I'm hoping the SI development team will consider listening to a relatively new user, after all, new users are needed to grow the user base :)

Although I really love SI in general It seems to me that modeling is a rather neglected area in SI.  The more I use it the more I dislike it.  This seems odd to me as it's the first step in most projects and if a project is started in one package (SI, Maya, Max or whatever) it is probably more likely to stay in that system the rest of the way, at least for small shops and individuals.  I'm hoping it will get some attention in the near future. 

As a new user I really love some aspects of modeling in SI like the interactivity, the operator stack etc. but there are some REALLY glaring holes that came as a shock to me when I started.  I still use other programs for some simple things which is disappointing.  Here's a few very basic  examples:

Draw Primitives - I can't draw a box, ball or whatever where I want it? Really?  I couldn't believe that.  Take a look at LW or Modo on how to do this correctly.

Revolve - I need to make some threads on a bolt so I'll just select a polygon and revolve it a few times with a transform and...what?  Can't do that?  Can't revolve an edge or polygon, have to convert to a curve?  Why?  No translate/scale/rotate?  What?  Extrude has it, why not revolve?  Inconsistency like this is frustrating.

Extrude - I'd like to extrude some polys and leave the current ones in place to make a solid object.  I can extrude OR duplicate polys but not both?  Seriously?!  This is pretty basic.

Thickness - No command for shell/thickness, I have to go find a plugin?

Duplicate multiple - I'd like to take a rivet and duplicate it a 100 times or so with some transform but it's not interactive?!  I have to guess/pre-calculate the spacing and if it's not right, do it again?  This is so unlike the rest of SI.

These are pretty simple things that have been in other packages for 15+ years.  Cleaning up stuff like this would go a LONG way to making SI an outstanding modeler that people would enjoy using.  Since Max is under the same roof perhaps take a look at some of those poly tools.  As for NURBS, well that's another topic for another day but they could really use improving.

As a new user I'm blown away by how great the rest of SI is but less than thrilled with modeling as you can tell.  It's probably fine for organic characters but some of us need to do mechanical and architectural things from time to time.  Here's hoping for some development in this area.

Comments most welcome and please point out if I'm wrong or missing something on these tools :)

-- 
_________________________________________________

Len Krenzler - Creative Control Media Productions

Phone: 780.463.3126

www.creativecontrol.ca - l...@creativecontrol.ca

[Gene Crucean]

Even though I think that the current tools are fairly solid for the most part... I fully agree that the modeling toolset needs a heavy update. But nothing with a LW or Modo mindset please. I personally can't stand the way the tools work in those apps, with the exception of that cool sketch extrude tool. That thing is sweet regardless of how useful it really is. I want full interactivity. Like you mentioned, no choosing settings in a ppg to see the result, only to undo and try again. I actually prefer how Max draws new primitives. It also lets you base it's location on an objects normal. That's very handy and fast.

But speaking of that, have you tried creating a new object and quickly snapping it to your new location with ctrl? It's not on the same level but it's imo the best method available.

What software you are coming from btw?

Oh and welcome to the SI community!

--
[Gene Crucean] - [VFX & CG Supervisor/Generalist]
** Freelance for hire **

[Len Krenzler]

Thanks for the warm welcome!  And let me reiterate that I'm thrilled with SI in general, just a bit frustrated with modeling.  I'd never go back to Lightwave which is what I'm coming from.  I cringe whenever I have to use it just to export something :)

I think overall modeling has been let slide a bit and could really benefit from some work.  Right now for NURBS I use MoI (moi3d.com) which I find really excellent.

Just hoping SI will get a modeling makeover sometime soon so I don't have to use anything else!

Cheers! - Len Krenzler - www.actionart.ca

[Schoenberger]

>Duplicate multiple - I'd like to take a rivet and duplicate it a 100 times or so with some transform but it's not interactive?!
>I have to guess/pre-calculate the spacing and if it's not right, do it again?  This is so unlike the rest of SI.

If dublicate mutliple CTRL-Shift-D does not work for you:
Dublicate your object 100 times, select all.
Enter in the X coordinate on the right menu bar:
L(0;20) => first object has x 0, last one has x 20, the others are evenly spaced
R(0;20) => all objects have a random x coordinate between 0 and 20

I especially like to place objects randomly in space with that feature.

Holger Schönberger
technical director
The day has 24 hours, if that does not suffice, I will take the night

 

 

 

---

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Len Krenzler
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 5:01 PM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Observations of a new user - Modeling in SI

[kim aldis]

I'm sure, with a little effort, you could wrap that up into a package, make it genuinely interactive. Writing an interactive duplicator wouldn't be that difficult either. I know, 'why should I'? Mostly because you need it but also because sometimes it good to sweat the small stuff yourself, give the heavyweights time for the big stuff.

:)

[Dan Yargici]

As an aside.... Kim, the fact that your TinyThickness toolset isn't hasn't been integrated in to Soft yet is truely tragic.  Thanks for that great tool.

It's on http://rray.de/xsi/ if anyone's still not tried it on any other of Kim's modelling tools.

DAN

P.S. Please donate if you haven't, Reinhard is doing an amazing job of maintaining that page and it must take a beating bandwidth wise...

[Len Krenzler]

Thanks!  That's handy.

[Christopher Tedin]

Yes, thank you, thank you, thank Kim you for TinyThickness!

[kim aldis]

I asked them if they wanted to buy it. They declined.

[Eugen Sares]

Hi Len,
my sympahies!! SI is great, but the modelling tools desperately need love!
You will find plugins/scripts, though, for a lot of your wishes (which I
absolutely share).

A tip, for what it's worth - this command allows you to place Primitives
interactively:

DrawPrimitiveTool("Cube", "MeshSurface", null, null);

But only a green null object, not the Primitive itself.
You can choose to either transform an object when clicking on an empty
spot in the VP or deselect.
Together with snapping, option 1 can do a good job placing objects in your
scene.

What bugged me a lot was a missing Box primitive - length, width, height.
Unbelievable. So I wrote one myself:
http://www.keyvis.at/tools/Softimage/Box.zip

Extrusions and Revolutions:
what's missing here for my taste is the lack of support for multiple
Subcurves. Only the first Subcurve is taken.
Only CurvesToMesh can handle multiple Subcurves, which then again does not
support open Subcurves, like Extrude does!
Crap. I mean, really.

Next, if you try to edit CurveLists, you will run into trouble, because
there are almost no tools on Subcurves.
I'm still working on a set of Operators for this purpose, which I
hopefully can finish the next days (long story...)

But then: there have been some tech preview videos showing parametrical
modelling workflows with ICE.
So there's a good chance SI will catch up here, and we all are gonna be
happy!

Best,
Eugen

>> is a rather neglected area in SI.The more I use it the more I
>> dislike it.This seems odd to me as it's the first step in most

>> projects and if a project is started in one package (SI, Maya, Max
>> or whatever) it is probably more likely to stay in that system the

>> rest of the way, at least for small shops and individuals.I'm

>> hoping it will get some attention in the near future.
>>
>> As a new user I really love some aspects of modeling in SI like
>> the interactivity, the operator stack etc. but there are some
>> REALLY glaring holes that came as a shock to me when I started.I
>> still use other programs for some simple things which is
>> disappointing.Here's a few very basicexamples:
>>
>> Draw Primitives - I can't draw a box, ball or whatever where I

>> want it? Really?I couldn't believe that.Take a look at LW or Modo

>> on how to do this correctly.
>>
>> Revolve - I need to make some threads on a bolt so I'll just
>> select a polygon and revolve it a few times with a transform

>> and...what?Can't do that?Can't revolve an edge or polygon, have to

>> convert to a curve?Why?No translate/scale/rotate?What?Extrude has

>> it, why not revolve?Inconsistency like this is frustrating.

>>
>> Extrude - I'd like to extrude some polys and leave the current

>> ones in place to make a solid object.I can extrude OR duplicate
>> polys but not both?Seriously?!This is pretty basic.

>>
>> Thickness - No command for shell/thickness, I have to go find a
>> plugin?
>>
>> Duplicate multiple - I'd like to take a rivet and duplicate it a
>> 100 times or so with some transform but it's not interactive?!I
>> have to guess/pre-calculate the spacing and if it's not right, do

>> it again?This is so unlike the rest of SI.

>>
>> These are pretty simple things that have been in other packages

>> for 15+ years.Cleaning up stuff like this would go a LONG way to

>> making SI an outstanding modeler that people would enjoy using.
>> Since Max is under the same roof perhaps take a look at some of
>> those poly tools. As for NURBS, well that's another topic for
>> another day but they could really use improving.
>>
>> As a new user I'm blown away by how great the rest of SI is but

>> less than thrilled with modeling as you can tell.It's probably

>> fine for organic characters but some of us need to do mechanical

>> and architectural things from time to time.Here's hoping for some

>> development in this area.
>>
>> Comments most welcome and please point out if I'm wrong or missing
>> something on these tools :)
>>
>> --
>> _________________________________________________
>>
>> Len Krenzler - Creative Control Media Productions
>>
>> Phone: 780.463.3126
>>

>> www.creativecontrol.ca <http://www.creativecontrol.ca>
>> -l...@creativecontrol.ca <mailto:l...@creativecontrol.ca>

>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> [Gene Crucean] - [VFX & CG Supervisor/Generalist]
>> ** Freelance for hire **
>
>

--
Erstellt mit Operas revolutionï¿œrem E-Mail-Modul: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[kim aldis]

Adding fuel to the fire: The reason tinythickness and the curve extrude tool were written originally was because the Softimage extrude tool cannot do extrusions correctly. If you're doing architectural, CAD or product design then Softimage doesn't have the fundamental ability to extrude a curve or shape along complex curves and produce an acceptable result. there are many models that you cannot build in Softimag because of this. If you haven't come across this, take a square, delete one point then extrude another curve around the square. Not how the edges that you'd expect to be parallel to the original square aren't. This is a staggering omission. More staggering that even version 1 of SI|3D couldn't do this. It's worthless. Can't use it. For years you couldn't extrude text, couldn't sweep an cornice around a room. First job I did in SI|3D was a model of St Pauls cathedral; couldn't be done. There are actually parts of St Pauls cathedral  that you can't build in Softimage. That's why I wrote those extrude tools. Took maybe a couple of days.

[kim aldis]

To be fair though, it was easy, wasn't it. What did it take, 10 minutes?

[Len Krenzler]

Thank you VERY much for sharing and helpful suggestions! Like you say,
maybe ICE will rocket modeling to the top like it did for other things :)

--
_________________________________________________

Phone: 780.463.3126

www.creativecontrol.ca - l...@creativecontrol.ca

[Len Krenzler]

I've never done it but I'll give it a go :)

Is there a new link for your tools?  The one on rray.de seems to be broken (http://kim-aldis.co.uk/drupal-6.1/node/40)

Cheers! - Len

[Luc-Eric Rousseau]

That's a cool trick.
To create tons of duplicate, personally I'd use the Duplicate Tool with snapping, or  animate the object and use Duplicate from Animation

[Dan Yargici]

Len there is a local backup of everything on the site also... Use that link... ;)

DAN

[Ed]

modeling tools I miss from 3ds Max are a symmetry operator that merges at the middle [i don't like the clone mesh workaround] 

and curves editing [still don't know how to merge two curves at the same object]...

Eugen and Kim, big thanks for the tools ;)

[Matt Lind]

A few of my prop artists requested that tool of me.  They called it a “mirror plane”.

 

I tried building it in Softimage but could only do half of the job using out of the box components.  The main issue being that wherever the operator was installed in the construction history, it would never see any modifications after that point.  Because it’s comprised of multiple pieces, I can’t drag it up to the animation part of the construction history either L.  Basically I’d have to write it myself as an operator to get around the problem.

 

If you can live with that limitation, it’s not too difficult to rig up using the SlicePolygons operator, Symmetrize operator, and a few expressions.

 

Matt

[renato polimeno]

Do you guys know if XSI has any modeling tool similar to Maya´s reflection plane ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyUWt8GJu40

--
-> Renato Polimeno
www.renatopolimeno.com
www.tribbo.com.br
www.facebook.com/renato.polimeno

[Steven Caron]

use the tweak tool with symmetry on

s

[Grahame Fuller]

If you're just moving points like in that video, you can simply activate Sym mode.

If you're making topo changes, I prefer this setup: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/index.php/Symmetrical_Modeling_Setup

gray

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of renato polimeno
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 01:55 PM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Observations of a new user - Modeling in SI

Do you guys know if XSI has any modeling tool similar to Maya´s reflection plane ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyUWt8GJu40

On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Matt Lind <ml...@carbinestudios.com<mailto:ml...@carbinestudios.com>> wrote:
A few of my prop artists requested that tool of me. They called it a "mirror plane".

I tried building it in Softimage but could only do half of the job using out of the box components. The main issue being that wherever the operator was installed in the construction history, it would never see any modifications after that point. Because it's comprised of multiple pieces, I can't drag it up to the animation part of the construction history either :(. Basically I'd have to write it myself as an operator to get around the problem.

If you can live with that limitation, it's not too difficult to rig up using the SlicePolygons operator, Symmetrize operator, and a few expressions.

Matt

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com> [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com>] On Behalf Of Ed
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 10:04 AM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:soft...@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: Re: Observations of a new user - Modeling in SI

modeling tools I miss from 3ds Max are a symmetry operator that merges at the middle [i don't like the clone mesh workaround]
and curves editing [still don't know how to merge two curves at the same object]...

Eugen and Kim, big thanks for the tools ;)

--
-> Renato Polimeno
www.renatopolimeno.com<http://www.renatopolimeno.com>
www.tribbo.com.br<http://www.tribbo.com.br>
www.facebook.com/renato.polimeno<http://www.facebook.com/renato.polimeno>

[Eugen Sares]

The code itself, yes. Well, a bit longer maybe =}.
And it has no params for subdivisions. Yet.

The trick with scripts is to to get know the framework. It's a Topology
Operator, not many code examples around for these.

Still, I'm not 100% sure:
a Generator Op is simply a Topo Op applied at the bottom of the stack...
Correct?
That's what I do in the script: create an empty object, apply an Op that
writes in the geometry with .Set()

--
Erstellt mit Operas revolutionärem E-Mail-Modul: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[Christopher Tedin]

Thanks for this link. Can't believe I missed it. Should be scriptable,
no? I'll have to give it a try. It'd be nice to have a button that takes
care of this.

[Matt Lind]

We’re doing topology changes.  

 

Unfortunately your Wiki tutorial doesn’t address the same issue.  Also wouldn’t work too well in our production because it has dependencies on other objects (the clone in this case).  We need to import/export geometry as models and cannot afford to have excess baggage hanging around as it will mess up our exporters to our game engine.  Whatever the solution is, it has to be operator based.

 

The mirror plane, as my prop artists call it, is a tool from 3DSMax.  It’s a combination knife and symmetrize tool.  probably the best way to describe it is as a kaleidoscope symmetry modeler, but with more degrees of freedom.

 

The advantage is the mirror plane can be transformed to create arbitrary symmetries which are very useful in creating organic shapes such as trees.   A few cuts in a trunk which are rotated and scaled can create many branches without much time or effort.  Texture UVs, vertex colors, weightmaps, user normals, materials, are all transferred and preserved.

 

The limitations with Softimage are that it doesn’t see edits past the insertion point in the construction history.  Example, if the artist wants to push and pull points to update the result, the mirror plane doesn’t see those edits because they occur later in the construction history.  Softimage doesn’t allow me to put the slice and symmetrize operators in the animation part of the construction history.  So really, this tool is very limited in Softimage to modeling only and in niche cases L.  However, if these limitations were somehow removed via updats in the modeling kernel, then this would be a very powerful and often requested addition to the modeling toolset.

 

 

Matt

 

 

 

 

 

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Grahame Fuller
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 11:07 AM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: RE: Observations of a new user - Modeling in SI

 

If you’re just moving points like in that video, you can simply activate Sym mode.

 

If you’re making topo changes, I prefer this setup: http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/index.php/Symmetrical_Modeling_Setup

 

gray

 

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of renato polimeno
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 01:55 PM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Observations of a new user - Modeling in SI

 

Do you guys know if XSI has any modeling tool similar to Maya´s reflection plane ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyUWt8GJu40

On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Matt Lind <ml...@carbinestudios.com> wrote:

A few of my prop artists requested that tool of me.  They called it a “mirror plane”.

 

I tried building it in Softimage but could only do half of the job using out of the box components.  The main issue being that wherever the operator was installed in the construction history, it would never see any modifications after that point.  Because it’s comprised of multiple pieces, I can’t drag it up to the animation part of the construction history either L.  Basically I’d have to write it myself as an operator to get around the problem.

 

If you can live with that limitation, it’s not too difficult to rig up using the SlicePolygons operator, Symmetrize operator, and a few expressions.

 

Matt

 

 

 

 

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ed
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 10:04 AM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Observations of a new user - Modeling in SI

 

modeling tools I miss from 3ds Max are a symmetry operator that merges at the middle [i don't like the clone mesh workaround] 

and curves editing [still don't know how to merge two curves at the same object]...

 

Eugen and Kim, big thanks for the tools ;)

--
-> Renato Polimeno
www.renatopolimeno.com

www.tribbo.com.br
www.facebook.com/renato.polimeno

[Eugen Sares]

Am 09.02.2011, 19:03 Uhr, schrieb Ed <edsch...@gmail.com>:

> modeling tools I miss from 3ds Max are a symmetry operator that merges at
> the middle [i don't like the clone mesh workaround]

Wrote "SliceSymmetrize" for that reason.
(Got to put it on my website at last...)

The mirror plane is the Curve Rectangle. Better that an Implicit Object
because you can use the corners for snapping.
Enjoy!

> and curves editing [still don't know how to merge two curves at the same
> object]...

"MergeSubcurves" is almost done. Still a bug with inverted Subcurves, but
I'm on it.

[Len Krenzler]

Awesome! Thanks! Keep me posted on the "MergeSubcurves", much needed :)

--
_________________________________________________

Len Krenzler - Creative Control Media Productions

Phone: 780.463.3126

www.creativecontrol.ca - l...@creativecontrol.ca

[Christopher Tedin]

I love you! :-)

[Stefan Kubicek]

> Writing an interactive duplicator wouldn't be that difficult either. I know, 'why should I'? Mostly because you need it but also because sometimes it good to sweat the small stuff yourself, give the heavyweights time for the big stuff.

Right, though the small stuff would be easier to do if the "heavyweights" had provided us with the same SDK functionality that they have.
Lots of things that Softimage uses internally (like updating clusters, access to certain UI methods and classes) are not available in the public SDK, which makes it a lot harder to write plugins that look and feel like native/well integrated ones (ask Eric Mootz about UV's for emPolygonizer).
An unnecessary hassle for those actually willing to invest the time.

That being said, the Poly modeling tools (as opposed to NURBS, which really stink) in Soft are still quite good imho compared to what you get in Maya out of the box. Yet both Maya and Soft need a lot of additional plugins installed to get what you get in Max without installing anything.

> :)
>
> On 9 Feb 2011, at 09:25, Schoenberger wrote:
>
>> >Duplicate multiple - I'd like to take a rivet and duplicate it a 100 times or so with some transform but it's not interactive?!
>> >I have to guess/pre-calculate the spacing and if it's not right, do it again? This is so unlike the rest of SI.
>>
>> If dublicate mutliple CTRL-Shift-D does not work for you:
>> Dublicate your object 100 times, select all.
>> Enter in the X coordinate on the right menu bar:
>> L(0;20) => first object has x 0, last one has x 20, the others are evenly spaced
>> R(0;20) => all objects have a random x coordinate between 0 and 20
>>
>> I especially like to place objects randomly in space with that feature.
>>

>> Holger Schï¿œnberger

>> technical director
>> The day has 24 hours, if that does not suffice, I will take the night
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

>> From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Len Krenzler
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 5:01 PM
>> To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
>> Subject: Observations of a new user - Modeling in SI
>>
>> I'm hoping the SI development team will consider listening to a relatively new user, after all, new users are needed to grow the user base :)
>>
>> Although I really love SI in general It seems to me that modeling is a rather neglected area in SI. The more I use it the more I dislike it. This seems odd to me as it's the first step in most projects and if a project is started in one package (SI, Maya, Max or whatever) it is probably more likely to stay in that system the rest of the way, at least for small shops and individuals. I'm hoping it will get some attention in the near future.
>>
>> As a new user I really love some aspects of modeling in SI like the interactivity, the operator stack etc. but there are some REALLY glaring holes that came as a shock to me when I started. I still use other programs for some simple things which is disappointing. Here's a few very basic examples:
>>
>> Draw Primitives - I can't draw a box, ball or whatever where I want it? Really? I couldn't believe that. Take a look at LW or Modo on how to do this correctly.
>>
>> Revolve - I need to make some threads on a bolt so I'll just select a polygon and revolve it a few times with a transform and...what? Can't do that? Can't revolve an edge or polygon, have to convert to a curve? Why? No translate/scale/rotate? What? Extrude has it, why not revolve? Inconsistency like this is frustrating.
>>
>> Extrude - I'd like to extrude some polys and leave the current ones in place to make a solid object. I can extrude OR duplicate polys but not both? Seriously?! This is pretty basic.
>>
>> Thickness - No command for shell/thickness, I have to go find a plugin?
>>
>> Duplicate multiple - I'd like to take a rivet and duplicate it a 100 times or so with some transform but it's not interactive?! I have to guess/pre-calculate the spacing and if it's not right, do it again? This is so unlike the rest of SI.
>>
>> These are pretty simple things that have been in other packages for 15+ years. Cleaning up stuff like this would go a LONG way to making SI an outstanding modeler that people would enjoy using. Since Max is under the same roof perhaps take a look at some of those poly tools. As for NURBS, well that's another topic for another day but they could really use improving.
>>
>> As a new user I'm blown away by how great the rest of SI is but less than thrilled with modeling as you can tell. It's probably fine for organic characters but some of us need to do mechanical and architectural things from time to time. Here's hoping for some development in this area.
>>
>> Comments most welcome and please point out if I'm wrong or missing something on these tools :)
>>
>> --
>> _________________________________________________
>>
>> Len Krenzler - Creative Control Media Productions
>>
>> Phone: 780.463.3126
>>
>> www.creativecontrol.ca - l...@creativecontrol.ca
>
>

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-------------------------------------------
Stefan Kubicek Co-founder
-------------------------------------------
keyvis digital imagery
1050 Vienna Wehrgasse 9 Austria
Phone: +43/699/12614231
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