In case you missed it..

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Paul Griswold

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Sep 10, 2012, 10:08:12 AM9/10/12
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This is the kind of stuff that makes me really dislike Autodesk:  http://yfrog.com/h0t6exxtj

I'm glad to know Softimage is a particle system that has single-step interoperability with the apps in the "Areas of Excellence" (Max and Maya).



-Paul

Eric Thivierge

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Sep 10, 2012, 10:28:46 AM9/10/12
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wait, so you mean that AD marketing for Softimage sucks? First I heard about it.

PS - Maybe send this to the new PM if you intend to direct the displeasure to some potentially productive channel?

--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
http://www.ethivierge.com

Ben Davis

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Sep 10, 2012, 10:30:24 AM9/10/12
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Well, on the bright side Softimage still has 3% in excellence range, Motionbuilder isn't even fully functional :)

Ben


--
Benjamin Clifford Davis

3D artist - Senior Modeler
Senior 3D Generalist

www.moondog-animation.com
 

office:   +33 9 50 04 76 15
mobile: +33 6 88 48 54 50

6 bis avenue des Iles
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Eugen Sares

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Sep 10, 2012, 10:31:29 AM9/10/12
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Good one, very funny!
What did they pay for Softimage when they bought it from Avid? 25 mio., right?
Pretty expensive for a particle system.

Paul Griswold

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Sep 10, 2012, 10:31:46 AM9/10/12
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I posted that link to his "Introducing the new PM" page on the AD website.

-Paul

Graham Bell

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Sep 10, 2012, 10:36:05 AM9/10/12
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Perhaps worth pointing out that this is a Entertainment Creation 'Suites' magazine and of the course the two main flavours (Ultimate aside) for the Suites are Maya and Max. And therefore the three packages shown in the image are all including in the Maya/Max Suites, hence the reason for trying to show their value to those respective users.
winmail.dat

Eric Thivierge

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Sep 10, 2012, 10:42:35 AM9/10/12
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Even I don't buy that Graham. Only particles? Why not Nodal based systems for particles, topology, and animation? Sounds better to me than just particles. It can go even further than that but lets just stick with the selling point of ICE.

There use that and cut me a hefty check for helping out the marketing dept. :D

--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
http://www.ethivierge.com


Paul Griswold

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Sep 10, 2012, 10:48:10 AM9/10/12
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Yeah I realize that.  It's just disappointing that it's the headline on the Media & Entertainment page.

I understand they want to sell the creation suites rather than individual packages, trying to emulate the Adobe model.  But the more I watch AD the more I think they're emulating DAZ, not Adobe.

Paul  

Graham Bell

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Sep 10, 2012, 10:59:05 AM9/10/12
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I never said I agreed with the wording. :)
I was merely pointing out what I think the rationale was behind it as it's really focused on stuff like interop workflows. It is somewhat high level though, and personally I'm not a fan of these 'magazines'


From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Eric Thivierge
Sent: 10 September 2012 15:43
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: In case you missed it..

Even I don't buy that Graham. Only particles? Why not Nodal based systems for particles, topology, and animation? Sounds better to me than just particles. It can go even further than that but lets just stick with the selling point of ICE.

There use that and cut me a hefty check for helping out the marketing dept. :D

--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
http://www.ethivierge.com

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 12:36 AM, Graham Bell <Graha...@autodesk.com<mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com>> wrote:
Perhaps worth pointing out that this is a Entertainment Creation 'Suites' magazine and of the course the two main flavours (Ultimate aside) for the Suites are Maya and Max. And therefore the three packages shown in the image are all including in the Maya/Max Suites, hence the reason for trying to show their value to those respective users.



winmail.dat

Graham Bell

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Sep 10, 2012, 11:03:59 AM9/10/12
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Actually I don't think it's a case of trying to sell Suites instead of the individual packages, but yeah there is a lot of focus on them and it's another way to purchase the products, and boost more awareness of packages like Softimage. That's of course if they apply to you. I take the stance I always have with Suites, they're not for everyone, but if they are, it is actually a better way to purchase.


From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Paul Griswold
Sent: 10 September 2012 15:48
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: In case you missed it..

Yeah I realize that. It's just disappointing that it's the headline on the Media & Entertainment page.

I understand they want to sell the creation suites rather than individual packages, trying to emulate the Adobe model. But the more I watch AD the more I think they're emulating DAZ, not Adobe.

Paul


On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 10:36 AM, Graham Bell <Graha...@autodesk.com<mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com>> wrote:
Perhaps worth pointing out that this is a Entertainment Creation 'Suites' magazine and of the course the two main flavours (Ultimate aside) for the Suites are Maya and Max. And therefore the three packages shown in the image are all including in the Maya/Max Suites, hence the reason for trying to show their value to those respective users.



winmail.dat

Luc-Eric Rousseau

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Sep 10, 2012, 11:05:31 AM9/10/12
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Making Charts: not in their Area of Excellence.

Paul Griswold

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Sep 10, 2012, 11:09:14 AM9/10/12
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Hahahaha!

Seriously.... I imagine the person responsible for that chart uses terms like "think outside the box", "synergy" and "paradigm shift" frequently.

Adam Seeley

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Sep 10, 2012, 11:15:16 AM9/10/12
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In case they need some help...

http://bullshitgenerator.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/mba-jargon-exhaustive-list.html

But they seem to be doing fine.

Adam.





From: Paul Griswold <pgri...@fusiondigitalproductions.com>
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Sent: Monday, 10 September 2012, 16:09

Subject: Re: In case you missed it..

Matt Morris

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Sep 10, 2012, 12:57:14 PM9/10/12
to Adam Seeley, soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
That's a pretty ridiculous diagram. And not a little bit depressing that autodesk are going out of their way to encourage misconceptions about Softimage's capabilities.


Stefan Andersson

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Sep 10, 2012, 3:07:36 PM9/10/12
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Just to throw some more gasoline onto the fire.

So the value to a 3dsmax/Maya user would be to use Softimage as a particle plugin. Everything else their respective Software is good at.

I know you don't agree with them Graham, and it's not you who "wrote/made" this :) It's been said over and over again on this list, it doesn't seem that Autodesk cares about Softimage.

And it's for that reason alone that I don't recommend anyone (anymore) to buy or learn Softimage. Autodesk representatives on this list is trying to assure us, but apparently those people have absolutely NO contact with the Marketing/PR people. It's not that we have been asking for much, but the way they market Softimage and the way new users and studios look at Softimage... well... you get my point.

I don't want Softimage to be a good companion to Maya&3dsmax, I want Softimage to kick their ass and make all users leave their software and use Softimage instead!! But that is not in Autodesk view a good thing. And for this reason I think Autodesk is really bad for Softimage. 

Why is attitude and "kick butt" mentality a bad thing? it's what keeps a lot of us going and improving our-self. It's what makes us trying to reach for those extra 10% in a production.

Am I pissed at Autodesk? you bet you sweet ass I am. I spent years behind Softimage and got companies to buy the software that were Maya based, and really really tried to get it to work... 
With ICE I had big hopes. But... Autodesk had little incentive to kick Maya/3dsmax out the window. They made Softimage into a particle plugin.

So what happens now?

I know it's pointless rant, and it just adds fuel to the fire. But it's difficult to talk about something positive when it comes to Softimage. It's like having a Formula One car, but you live in the country side and no one understands why you have it.

Sorry for the rant everyone.

best regards
Stefan 
--
stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com

Craig Tozzi

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Sep 10, 2012, 3:29:56 PM9/10/12
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AD's marketing of Softimage feels _exactly_ the same as Avid's approach to Softimage DS after Avid acquired it.

I went through that nonsense once. I've no interest in repeating it.

Leoung O'Young

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Sep 10, 2012, 3:34:41 PM9/10/12
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Stefan, I totally agreed with you rant....hopefully we are wrong
We are sitting on the fence about upgrading our licenses, at this point we will have to take a hard long look.

We have been with Softimage/XSI since the early '90..

Leoung

Stefan Kubicek

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Sep 10, 2012, 3:43:21 PM9/10/12
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That diagram is so incredibly misleading that it's almost cool again.
It must have been made by more than one person, a single individual alone would hardly
be capable of cramming so much bs into so little space.
--
-------------------------------------------
Stefan Kubicek Co-founder
-------------------------------------------
keyvis digital imagery
Wehrgasse 9 - Grï¿œner Hof
1050 Vienna Austria
Phone: +43/699/12614231
--- www.keyvis.at ste...@keyvis.at ---
-- This email and its attachments are
--confidential and for the recipient only--

Graham Bell

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Sep 10, 2012, 3:55:18 PM9/10/12
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"I don't want Softimage to be a good companion to Maya&3dsmax, I want Softimage to kick their ass and make all users leave their software and use Softimage instead!!"

This is a perfectly valid point, however playing a neutral card for a moment and to just throw something out there....how do we do that?
There are plenty of Maya/Max based studios out there, skilled up, decent pipeline with some tech & tools, and producing very good and capable work for years, how would you get them to then rip all that up and go with Softimage?
I'm not sure it's that easy, expanding the capability of a pipeline by adding another solution/software is one thing, but a complete replacement/retool of your core 3D app? That's a whole bigger thing altogether.


G


From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Leoung O'Young
Sent: 10 September 2012 20:35
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: In case you missed it..

Stefan, I totally agreed with you rant....hopefully we are wrong
We are sitting on the fence about upgrading our licenses, at this point we will have to take a hard long look.

We have been with Softimage/XSI since the early '90..

Leoung

On 9/10/2012 3:07 PM, Stefan Andersson wrote:
Just to throw some more gasoline onto the fire.

So the value to a 3dsmax/Maya user would be to use Softimage as a particle plugin. Everything else their respective Software is good at.

I know you don't agree with them Graham, and it's not you who "wrote/made" this :) It's been said over and over again on this list, it doesn't seem that Autodesk cares about Softimage.

And it's for that reason alone that I don't recommend anyone (anymore) to buy or learn Softimage. Autodesk representatives on this list is trying to assure us, but apparently those people have absolutely NO contact with the Marketing/PR people. It's not that we have been asking for much, but the way they market Softimage and the way new users and studios look at Softimage... well... you get my point.

I don't want Softimage to be a good companion to Maya&3dsmax, I want Softimage to kick their ass and make all users leave their software and use Softimage instead!! But that is not in Autodesk view a good thing. And for this reason I think Autodesk is really bad for Softimage.

Why is attitude and "kick butt" mentality a bad thing? it's what keeps a lot of us going and improving our-self. It's what makes us trying to reach for those extra 10% in a production.

Am I pissed at Autodesk? you bet you sweet ass I am. I spent years behind Softimage and got companies to buy the software that were Maya based, and really really tried to get it to work...
With ICE I had big hopes. But... Autodesk had little incentive to kick Maya/3dsmax out the window. They made Softimage into a particle plugin.

So what happens now?

I know it's pointless rant, and it just adds fuel to the fire. But it's difficult to talk about something positive when it comes to Softimage. It's like having a Formula One car, but you live in the country side and no one understands why you have it.

Sorry for the rant everyone.

best regards
Stefan
On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Graham Bell <Graha...@autodesk.com<mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com>> wrote:
Perhaps worth pointing out that this is a Entertainment Creation 'Suites' magazine and of the course the two main flavours (Ultimate aside) for the Suites are Maya and Max. And therefore the three packages shown in the image are all including in the Maya/Max Suites, hence the reason for trying to show their value to those respective users.



winmail.dat

Milan Vasek

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Sep 10, 2012, 4:09:43 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
> This is a perfectly valid point, however playing a neutral card for a moment and to just throw something out there....how do we do that?
> There are plenty of Maya/Max based studios out there, skilled up, decent pipeline with some tech & tools, and producing very good and capable work for years, how would you get them to then rip all that up and go with Softimage?
> I'm not sure it's that easy, expanding the capability of a pipeline by adding another solution/software is one thing, but a complete replacement/retool of your core 3D app? That's a whole bigger thing altogether. 
 
But there are also many students, beginners, freelancers, small studio etc. choosing Modo/Cinema4d or Max/Maya because 50% of them don't even know some Softimage exists and the rest thinks that it's just "that software Autodesk bought and is going to kill it soon". Maybe it would be good to start with these people... Show that Autodesk cares about Softimage, put on one the same level etc.... 




Milan Vasek
3d artist



Stefan Andersson

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Sep 10, 2012, 4:15:20 PM9/10/12
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I don't know, it used to be something those marketing/pr people stay up at night and come up with those nifty slogans.

I can just say that Softimage would probably replace 80% of the so called "pipeline tools" that are created to work around the software. Just put any Maya artist infront of a vanilla install of Maya and they will scream... :)
ICE would probably wipe out 90% of the in-house scripts that are created. And instead they would have a better modal/nodal system to work with.

But.... the main problem these days is probably not the technology, it's finding the people who can do it. Not a lot of Softimage artists that are highlevel TD's around. Most of them are on this list, and they already have a job :)

regards
stefan andersson

Alok

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Sep 10, 2012, 4:16:55 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
I agree with Graham, also please keep in mind that Soft is the not choice of software when it comes to fluids, volume rendering out of the box. We still need Mootz, Holger, Exocortex and other additional plugins to use soft for sfx. Especially in a feature film pipeline, the choice for visual effects DCC Apps lands on Maya and Houdini (and with the recent takeover of Naiad, thing are lined up interestingly for future). 3D Max still serves to a primarily gaming, architectural design, engineering solution and to some extent maybe medical animation. Also keep in mind that because of the prevalent large user/studio /schools base Maya still has more artists than softimage. It is hard for studios to find talents for softimage. If you want to hire for immediate project needs and throw up a job listing looking for both Softimage and Maya artists, chances are you will receive more Maya applicants then Soft, able to pull off the same stunts on the shots.

I love softimage for everything, but the truth is, it is becoming more and more of a niche tool with ICE offerings and having specialist for that. Outside the softimage universe, to the other planets we are known as an exotic alien species with some magical powers of ICE. We are not a part of the republic, and the battle to rule . . . . well that is another episode altogether.

My 2 paise !

Alok
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Peter Agg

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Sep 10, 2012, 4:29:37 PM9/10/12
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For what it's worth, although I find this obviously a bit silly, I can see something in what Graham says.

If Soft is going to get pushed, it really needs two things: 1) Bums in seats/licenses in houses - if these suite things mean there's a larger smattering of shops with the odd license kicking about then that can only be a good thing for me. Not only does it mean that there's somewhere else out there will to pay me money to do the non-boring parts of projects but it means that the software is potentially being used in production. If it works better, it'll creep along nicely slowly as Houdini is proving, to some extent.

However, to make it work in production there also needs to be 2) the resources to enable people in a Maya/Max house to get good stuff out of Soft (it's not like ICE is that straightforward), which is where the loss of Blair and the issues with xsiBase are so worrying. Will just have to hope that people can find this here list easily enough!


Pete

Craig Tozzi

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Sep 10, 2012, 4:30:50 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Of course that isn't going to happen, unless a studio/individual is forced to.  If you had a lot of seats of Shake some years back, it's likely you've moved onto Nuke etc. by now.

Softimage really feels that it's on the periphery of AD's marketing radar - that graphic literally (in the truest sense of the word) lays that out for all to see. Somehow a full featured program has been reduced to a particle generation system in the eyes of those who don't know any better. 

New studios and students have to make a choice at some point into what they're going to center a pipeline/skills/talent around. Honestly, considering this - what decision would you make? So you buy a suite…are you willing to build in and be responsible for a budget, pipeline and artists for three separate applications over a series of years? How deep are your pockets?

This is a very real concern. If there's no marketing to consider Soft as a standalone app, no sane startup or student would consider specializing in the product. Likewise, why would any existing studio consider integrating the app, as - over time - less and less resources are put to it, and less artists truly know the app?  It makes no sense.

Considering this, Softimage either gets sold or it dies on the vine. I'll put a crisp $2. bill on a 5 year lifespan as an existing product.  I hope AD proves me wrong.

David Barosin

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Sep 10, 2012, 4:44:36 PM9/10/12
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I don't think you really need to do much except allow Softimage a fighting chance.  The companies are able to make their own decisions.  Maybe I've heard too many rumors at this point but it seems like Autodesk is the first in line to talk companies out of moving forward with Softimage as a core app. 

To answer the neutral question.

Promote Softimage equally (There is a problem though - with all the negative rumors that have damaged any interest to date, maybe an extra scoop of marketing is in order to undo the damage)
Equally meaning on all fronts  - website, trade shows, the inside scoop conversations with clients, suites, body language ;)

Softimage is a fine piece of software.  Was it my imagination or was Softimage gaining popularity with ICE right before Autodesk purchased it.  I wonder where it would be if it if it didn't have such anemic marketing.

Btw that graph doesn't even include compositing ;)

Peter Agg

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Sep 10, 2012, 4:51:14 PM9/10/12
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It's not like companies were particularly forced into Nuke though (hell, some places are still to finish the transition!), people went because it was better and people learnt it because it was better. Whether Soft is as far ahead of Maya/Max as Nuke was to Shake is a bit more debatable. Still, the winds seem to be blowing in the direction of more diverse, specialist software so Soft could well find it's place in that yet.

Martin Belleau

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Sep 10, 2012, 5:04:35 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

It's my understanding that 95% of 3D users in the movie industry uses Maya + Renderman. If this is indeed true, then it's logical for AD to put energy there instead of trying to get those users to use XSI, thus also forcing a change in pipelines.

 

 

 

 

From: Peter Agg [mailto:pete...@googlemail.com]
Sent: September-10-12 4:51 PM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: In case you missed it..

 

It's not like companies were particularly forced into Nuke though (hell, some places are still to finish the transition!), people went because it was better and people learnt it because it was better. Whether Soft is as far ahead of Maya/Max as Nuke was to Shake is a bit more debatable. Still, the winds seem to be blowing in the direction of more diverse, specialist software so Soft could well find it's place in that yet.


Craig Tozzi

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Sep 10, 2012, 5:06:51 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
When Apple killed Shake, they gave end users the option of buying the source code for $50K. so that studios could maintain pipelines they had spent serious $$ and man-hours on. If you weren't interested in that, the writing was on the wall.  Sure you could use it until whenever you liked…until OS upgrades etc. eventually degrade the product. An EOL notice from the developer?  That'll force your hand, eventually.

The thing is - Soft is a full featured app, getting relegated to some form of "specialized" status.  If you have time and $$ invested in that product, particularly if that's your primary app - it's not a good feeling.

Like I said earlier - I've been here before. Feels vaguely familiar.  I want to be optimistic about it, but AD isn't doing to much to convince me otherwise.

Graham Bell

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Sep 10, 2012, 5:08:30 PM9/10/12
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I'd happily use a silver bullet if I had one, but I do agree that it's the coverage that would no doubt raise awareness.
Though I must point out that while it appear that Softimage gets the short straw when it comes to marketing and events etc, it's not as bad as many might think. It's what we actually show, that I think we perhaps just fall short on. The demo content just lacks the punch that it used to have. We just need to make it more compelling (and we are trying).

As for inside scoop stuff, from an EMEA point of view we're currently in the process of planning our Q3/Q4 webinars and I would definitely like to get some Softimage studios and work highlighted.

G


From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of David Barosin
Sent: 10 September 2012 21:45
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: In case you missed it..

I don't think you really need to do much except allow Softimage a fighting chance. The companies are able to make their own decisions. Maybe I've heard too many rumors at this point but it seems like Autodesk is the first in line to talk companies out of moving forward with Softimage as a core app.

To answer the neutral question.

Promote Softimage equally (There is a problem though - with all the negative rumors that have damaged any interest to date, maybe an extra scoop of marketing is in order to undo the damage)
Equally meaning on all fronts - website, trade shows, the inside scoop conversations with clients, suites, body language ;)

Softimage is a fine piece of software. Was it my imagination or was Softimage gaining popularity with ICE right before Autodesk purchased it. I wonder where it would be if it if it didn't have such anemic marketing.

Btw that graph doesn't even include compositing ;)





On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 3:55 PM, Graham Bell <Graha...@autodesk.com<mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com>> wrote:
"I don't want Softimage to be a good companion to Maya&3dsmax, I want Softimage to kick their ass and make all users leave their software and use Softimage instead!!"
This is a perfectly valid point, however playing a neutral card for a moment and to just throw something out there....how do we do that?
There are plenty of Maya/Max based studios out there, skilled up, decent pipeline with some tech & tools, and producing very good and capable work for years, how would you get them to then rip all that up and go with Softimage?
I'm not sure it's that easy, expanding the capability of a pipeline by adding another solution/software is one thing, but a complete replacement/retool of your core 3D app? That's a whole bigger thing altogether.


G


From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com> [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com>] On Behalf Of Leoung O'Young
Sent: 10 September 2012 20:35
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:soft...@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: Re: In case you missed it..

Stefan, I totally agreed with you rant....hopefully we are wrong
We are sitting on the fence about upgrading our licenses, at this point we will have to take a hard long look.

We have been with Softimage/XSI since the early '90..

Leoung

On 9/10/2012 3:07 PM, Stefan Andersson wrote:
Just to throw some more gasoline onto the fire.

So the value to a 3dsmax/Maya user would be to use Softimage as a particle plugin. Everything else their respective Software is good at.

I know you don't agree with them Graham, and it's not you who "wrote/made" this :) It's been said over and over again on this list, it doesn't seem that Autodesk cares about Softimage.

And it's for that reason alone that I don't recommend anyone (anymore) to buy or learn Softimage. Autodesk representatives on this list is trying to assure us, but apparently those people have absolutely NO contact with the Marketing/PR people. It's not that we have been asking for much, but the way they market Softimage and the way new users and studios look at Softimage... well... you get my point.

I don't want Softimage to be a good companion to Maya&3dsmax, I want Softimage to kick their ass and make all users leave their software and use Softimage instead!! But that is not in Autodesk view a good thing. And for this reason I think Autodesk is really bad for Softimage.

Why is attitude and "kick butt" mentality a bad thing? it's what keeps a lot of us going and improving our-self. It's what makes us trying to reach for those extra 10% in a production.

Am I pissed at Autodesk? you bet you sweet ass I am. I spent years behind Softimage and got companies to buy the software that were Maya based, and really really tried to get it to work...
With ICE I had big hopes. But... Autodesk had little incentive to kick Maya/3dsmax out the window. They made Softimage into a particle plugin.

So what happens now?

I know it's pointless rant, and it just adds fuel to the fire. But it's difficult to talk about something positive when it comes to Softimage. It's like having a Formula One car, but you live in the country side and no one understands why you have it.

Sorry for the rant everyone.

best regards
Stefan
On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Graham Bell <Graha...@autodesk.com<mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com><mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com<mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com>>> wrote:
Perhaps worth pointing out that this is a Entertainment Creation 'Suites' magazine and of the course the two main flavours (Ultimate aside) for the Suites are Maya and Max. And therefore the three packages shown in the image are all including in the Maya/Max Suites, hence the reason for trying to show their value to those respective users.


winmail.dat

Serguei Kalentchouk

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Sep 10, 2012, 6:35:37 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
I feel a strong sense of deja vu...

I know we all like XSI on this list but I always feel in these
discussions that the the perceived benefit of XSI over Maya is greatly
exaggerated due to personal preference.
Yes, more marketing of the product is always great but the reality is
that the people who make decisions about pipelines are for the most
part already familiar with XSI, many have actually worked with it in
recent past.
It is simply not true to assume that the only reason that studios
don't switch is because they somehow are oblivious to its awesomeness.

Unfortunately as it stands XSI simply does not deliver any
overwhelming benefits in production over the existing tool set,
therefore on a cost/benefit analysis it simply isn't worth the switch.
The argument that simply by switching to XSI a studio can ditch
hundreds or proprietary tools that were written for Maya is bogus,
because most of those tools were written to extend the capabilities of
the application and would need to be written for XSI as well because
they surpass its capabilities too. Whether or not XSI could be
extended in the same way would be up for debate as well!

At the end of the day Autodesk needs to make decisions based on the
current situation and the foreseeable trends and wide adoption of XSI
by mid to large scale studios is just not in the cards.


(I'm using Maya as an example, in my current situation I could make
the same arguments against switching from proprietary software that
leaves a lot to be desired)

--
Technical Director @ DreamWorks Animation

Guy Rabiller

unread,
Sep 10, 2012, 6:35:59 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

And if you considere TV series as an industry, don't forget to mention
Lightwave wich covers most of the VFX produced in this area.

And in feature film pipelines, it even took over Maya for "Iron Sky".

Sometimes, 'simpler' tools (no disrespect) are more efficient for the job.

Cheers,
Guy.
--
guy rabiller | raa.tel | radfac founder/ceo
tel: 0977 195 006 | mob: 0675 183 146 | fax: 0972 288 293
>> stefan andersson - digital janitor -http://sanders3d.wordpress.com

Steven Caron

unread,
Sep 10, 2012, 6:53:09 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
indeed, API wise i will always admit Maya's is more open and in that way better. i have no delusions about my choice being anything more than 'personal preference'.

s

Simon Reeves

unread,
Sep 10, 2012, 7:25:26 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

Pete's point about about having more licences knocking around because of the suite has already come to light in the small studio I'm working at... They Had a good offer to upgrade to the suites, useful to have a licence of maya and xsi for the odd thing ...and I think they're tired of max, some not so great experience with maya, and me in the corner yapping on about soft. They're used to vray so that's a bonus, interested in Arnold, and whatever ICE may be. 
That AD image is mostly funny because of how max hangs on in the middle, never mind where soft is.. And maybe it's good it has a separate role, not being one of the two apps that do the same job (according to the image)

Sam Cuttriss

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Sep 10, 2012, 8:03:43 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
If Softimage really is spearheading autodesk's particle initiative i would have expected to see significantly more investment in the features/ finesse and usability of ice.  
Im only vaguely disappointed in being labeled a particle plugin, but if that really is the case lets see you put your money where your mouth is.


David Barosin

unread,
Sep 10, 2012, 8:13:18 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
I'm really not asking for a hard sell to big studios.  Just clear the road and not impede Softimage from becoming something if a big or small studio takes an interest.  Give it an honest equally marketed chance next to the other apps.



Kiril Aronofski

unread,
Sep 10, 2012, 8:25:02 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
This discussion has been led repeatedly over the past several years and, frankly, nothing indicates it will ever change. The outlook of Softimage has even deteriorated quite a lot...

I am one of the students who made the leap of faith a few years ago and jumped into Softimage on account of being very impressed with its animation capabilities and general enthusiasm surrounding ICE. While the learning has been nothing but a pleasantry, I am sad to say, I can only see it as a huge mistake now. Prior to this, I have, rather unwisely, not contacted studios in my area - or tried in any other way - to find out which software they require the knowledge of. Now, getting closer to graduation, I have kept an eye out for the past few months and the situation is depressingly bleak. Job offerings that involve XSI in any way come so rarely, I have already started retraining myself for Maya (which I have some previous experience with).

Don't mean to come off as some kind of a whiner, but I'll make a point that saying AD is trying to get Softimage needed exposure by getting more studios on the suites is naive and fundamentally wrong because this is actually the ONLY way they are exposing it. While Max and Maya are getting into peoples hands left and right, Softimage is limited to an odd mention on the side and even than just to let you know you can fly some particles around in ICE.

I cannot possibly see how demoting a full-fledged package to a simple helper tool can encourage any one individual, let alone a studio, to base their long term plans on it.

...

I thought about what Serguei Kalentchouk said and I would trust someone from DreamWorks to know what he's talking about. My question is, is XSI now worse than Maya was 6, 8, 10 years ago when these studios started building their pipelines? I have no illusions soft will not be radically changing a decade old institution, but does it mean that can't stand on the same footing when offered fresh and off the shelf?


Kiril

Steven Caron

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Sep 10, 2012, 8:33:28 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
"I am sad to say, I can only see it as a huge mistake now."

dont look at it this way, you learned 3d, you enjoyed doing so. now get a job on your skills, knowledge, and likability... if you so happen to get to use softimage, great. otherwise you can annoy your co workers how you would do it 'this way' or 'that way' in softimage. :)

i too was a student once, and i too decided to use softimage instead, against all my teachers advice in fact. i have been able to find all my jobs that use some if not all softimage. i have had to use maya and max and have had no issue doing so.

sorry for the little derailment/pep talk for kiril.

s

Bradley Gabe

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Sep 10, 2012, 8:36:45 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
How many schools are training students using Houdini as the main application?

Eric Thivierge

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Sep 10, 2012, 8:44:47 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
You'll be a better more versatile 3D artist for knowing both. I've used both back and forth over the years, more Softimage than Maya but am coming to the realization its about doing 3D not applications. General knowledge of your profession executed with the tools each package offers. Though I'm never going to touch Max. Even with a 10 foot pole.

--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
http://www.ethivierge.com

Eric Turman

unread,
Sep 10, 2012, 8:48:04 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
The "its just a tool" argument. If that were true, we would still all be using sticks and rocks.
--




-=T=-

Bradley Gabe

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Sep 10, 2012, 8:51:02 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Please don't knock sticks and rocks. They are still some of the best tools for dealing with annoying clients.

Eric Thivierge

unread,
Sep 10, 2012, 8:53:39 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Its OK, whenever you get a job offer that involves Maya that you have no idea how to do, pass it on my way so I can earn a living. :) Its silly to pigeon hole yourself into only knowing 1 app and never learning others.

Hypothetically if one app does get canned you're screwed and have to hustle to retrain very quickly and may end you up in the poor house instead of easily transitioning to another studio.

I love using Softimage don't get me wrong.


--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
http://www.ethivierge.com


Rob Chapman

unread,
Sep 10, 2012, 8:54:58 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
wonder whats the best tool to deal with annoying decisions made at Autodesk?

Halim Negadi

unread,
Sep 10, 2012, 8:56:06 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Stefan, there's a lot of unemployed Soft guys down here in Paris, everybody has to move to London to be able to use a skillset that is over 10 years worth for most of them.

Most of Soft companies over here switched ( painfully for some of them ) to Maya because AD made Soft literally disappear from their catalog.
Financial people usually don't have a clue and don't really care of how advanced a software is compared to another.
What do you think they tend to decide when it comes to licensing and support renewal for an over 2k/seat software solution that is not even mentioned by the res-sellers because they are heavily advised not to ?

Over here we don't have much of a choice anymore, we have to go and find a job somewhere else or get used to workaround maya all day long.
Some of us can do it because it pays the bills, some others cannot. In any case, passion tends to vanish.

I've personally been around for way over a decade now and I can tell there's always been some competition and technological choice, except from the past 4 years.
We had Explore vs Soft|3D, Explore vs Power Animator, Soft vs Maya, Max vs Maya, XSI vs Maya, Maya&Max vs XSI.. and then the 2008 deal went down.
The mainstream CG world got paralyzed since then and reached a uniformity I still cannot imagine happening in the 2010's.

Even Maya people are not happy with this situation, more and more of them start thinking that ever since AD bought their main competitor, big DCCs have reached a huge stagnation that benefits to no one, not even AD.

Please AD, bring Soft back to a decent and fair exposure, at least closer to the one it deserves or sell it back if you're embarrassed.
I'm sure there's a lot of interested and rich people who would buy it, you'll make money out of your 2008 deal and you'll make anger go down.

Everybody knows ICE integration in Maya would have been done already if it was as easy as you guys thought when you closed the deal with Avid.
Just get inspired by the concept, help yourself with the code, hook it up to your weapon and get ours back to light. Just get the party started again, I'm sure you'll feel unexpected benefits.

Give back the choice of interaction model to people. This is more the center of the debate than the actual technological value.
Both packages have their strengths and weaknesses but please let people choose, a lot of them are artists, not only technicians.

Don't wait until someone comes up with a high performance DCC-like suite made with Fabric Engine or whatever, because a this point, more people than you expect will jump on it and the downhill might be steep.
Maya might end up just as a keyframing tool that allows a producer to line up 50 animators on the spot without any training costs. All the TDs that have been building it's worth for years deserves better.

Steven Caron

unread,
Sep 10, 2012, 9:03:45 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
do you know about andy goldsworthy? http://www.ucblueash.edu/artcomm/web/w2005_2006/maria_Goldsworthy/TEST/index.html

i think your example doesn't hold up very, are you saying that if someone takes softimage away from you tomorrow you will cease to create?

s

Eric Turman

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Sep 10, 2012, 9:21:11 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
I never said I only know one app...I've used over a dozen of them over the last 20 years and I am very familiar with and know how to use Maya very well. Although there are some commonalities between all packages they are definitely not all the same. So I submit the argument that it *is* as much about the package as it is about general 3D knowledge. You pretty much state so yourself by excluding 3DS Max out of the equation.
--




-=T=-

Kiril Aronofski

unread,
Sep 10, 2012, 9:24:51 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
>How many schools are training students using Houdini as the main application?

Is it relevant? I have not argued more schools should teach Softimage. I have argued its perceived value, encouraged by Autodesk, is lower than it should be (keep in mind I'm not putting it in comparative relation to any other application). Besides, Houdini is top of its niche and Sidefx didn't buy Softimage so it can quietly coexist under Houdini.


RE: learning more than one

This is a nice argument but, ideally, you'd prefer the software you put time into pay off in the end, right? Not fear for your chances because you're not nearly as prolific in a different one... Anyway, it was wrong of me to bring personal worries into discussion...

It is worth saying this cycle of studios avoiding soft because of a smaller talent pool, and the pool getting even smaller as a result, is going to have an effect eventually. If it didn't already.



Kiril

Matt Lind

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Sep 10, 2012, 9:31:58 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

It’s not an issue about creating art, Steven.  The issue is about retaining the rank and standard of living in the work force.

 

There is a very real argument if somebody takes Softimage away our net worth goes down considerably because our skills are specialized that we can’t just plug into another work environment without considerable retraining.  It’s primarily the employer’s perception/opinion that knowledge is not fully portable, and therefore whatever applicable knowledge you have doesn’t compare with somebody who is already well versed in the applications they already use.  I don’t agree with it as I feel my 20 years of production knowledge and experience with Softimage is more valuable and applicable than some college kid who only took a few semesters of Maya, but that’s the way it is. 

 

Heck, even within my own studio walls I fight this perception as I’m labeled a Softimage expert, but if a topic of discussion comes up that is not directly softimage related, my opinions aren’t given the weight even when I know more about the subject than the other people in the room.  They don’t consider my computer science background or that I was formerly an animator (traditional cel and 3D).

 

Perception is a powerful force.

 

Matt

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Steven Caron
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 6:04 PM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: In case you missed it..

 

Guy Rabiller

unread,
Sep 10, 2012, 9:34:47 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com


> Please AD, bring Soft back to a decent and fair exposure, at least
> closer to the one it deserves or sell it back if you're embarrassed.
> I'm sure there's a lot of interested and rich people who would buy it,
> you'll make money out of your 2008 deal and you'll make anger go down.

That, I think, will never happen, because AD did not buy Softimage for
XSI but for the patents Softimage had over its technologies. Reselling
Softimage would mean reselling the patents as well, and that is
precisely what they want to avoid. Buying as much patents as possible is
the only way to really shadow competitors.


> Don't wait until someone comes up with a high performance DCC-like
suite made with ../..

That's why I keep on saying the 'true' solution will have to come up
from the Open Source community. This is the only valid path. But it will
take some time.


Cheers,
Guy.
--
guy rabiller | raa.tel | radfac founder/ceo
tel: 0977 195 006 | mob: 0675 183 146 | fax: 0972 288 293


> <mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com><mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com <mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com>>>
> wrote:
> Perhaps worth pointing out that this is a Entertainment Creation
> 'Suites' magazine and of the course the two main flavours
> (Ultimate aside) for the Suites are Maya and Max. And therefore
> the three packages shown in the image are all including in the
> Maya/Max Suites, hence the reason for trying to show their value
> to those respective users.
>
>
>
> From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com
> <mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com><mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com
> <mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com>>
> [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com
> <mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com><mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com
> <mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com>>] On Behalf Of
> Paul Griswold
> Sent: 10 September 2012 15:08
> To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
> <mailto:soft...@listproc.autodesk.com><mailto:soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

Eric Thivierge

unread,
Sep 10, 2012, 9:36:25 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Purely because I dislike the interaction model not the features / workflow.


--------------------------------------------
Eric Thivierge
http://www.ethivierge.com


Steven Caron

unread,
Sep 10, 2012, 9:58:30 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
i get that, might have missed the context which eric was response was too, but i still think its possible to build knowledge in an app and translate it and at least return to your prior rank and earnings after a bit of time. but i think i am diverging from the points trying to be made here, if autodesk could better market softimage and actually vastly improve its market share (ignoring if thats even in their interest to do) you wouldn't have to learn a new package :)

perception is powerful, so if i were in the situation where i could no longer use softimage professionally i would change the way i market myself. from a purely survival perspective that is. that perspective allows me to look at the current situation and not be so upset about it.

hope i am making sense
s

Sylvain Lebeau

unread,
Sep 10, 2012, 10:02:05 PM9/10/12
to guy.ra...@radfac.com, soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
i agree with you Guy,
Autodesk will keep the patents for sure to try to pimp up Maya.

But... Open source software has a so chaotic and stochastic developpement scheme. Check how blender evolves. Lotsa new features all the time, but all in separatly sparsed developpement cocoons. And it is always buggy and flaky... Just like being on Alpha or beta versions all the time.   And one day you even end up with a totally new interface. Surprise!

Of course, we can see very nice things like Alembic or OpenExr as file formats as open source efforts. But who will want to create pieces of softwares without earning from it with all the developpement involved for serious rock solid production proven packages? Wow that would be awesome in a perfect world.

I see a big difference between GIMP and a top of the line 3D app.   Or modules? ... that would be even worst for interop integrety i think.  I dont know.

you really think it will happen?  It would be cool for sure!

sly

Monday, September 10, 2012 9:34 PM


> Please AD, bring Soft back to a decent and fair exposure, at least
> closer to the one it deserves or sell it back if you're embarrassed.
> I'm sure there's a lot of interested and rich people who would buy it,
> you'll make money out of your 2008 deal and you'll make anger go down.

That, I think, will never happen, because AD did not buy Softimage for XSI but for the patents Softimage had over its technologies. Reselling Softimage would mean reselling the patents as well, and that is precisely what they want to avoid. Buying as much patents as possible is the only way to really shadow competitors.


> Don't wait until someone comes up with a high performance DCC-like suite made with ../..

That's why I keep on saying the 'true' solution will have to come up from the Open Source community. This is the only valid path. But it will take some time.


Cheers,
Guy.
--
guy rabiller | raa.tel | radfac founder/ceo
tel: 0977 195 006 | mob: 0675 183 146 | fax: 0972 288 293



Monday, September 10, 2012 8:56 PM
Stefan, there's a lot of unemployed Soft guys down here in Paris, everybody has to move to London to be able to use a skillset that is over 10 years worth for most of them.

Most of Soft companies over here switched ( painfully for some of them ) to Maya because AD made Soft literally disappear from their catalog.
Financial people usually don't have a clue and don't really care of how advanced a software is compared to another.
What do you think they tend to decide when it comes to licensing and support renewal for an over 2k/seat software solution that is not even mentioned by the res-sellers because they are heavily advised not to ?

Over here we don't have much of a choice anymore, we have to go and find a job somewhere else or get used to workaround maya all day long.
Some of us can do it because it pays the bills, some others cannot. In any case, passion tends to vanish.

I've personally been around for way over a decade now and I can tell there's always been some competition and technological choice, except from the past 4 years.
We had Explore vs Soft|3D, Explore vs Power Animator, Soft vs Maya, Max vs Maya, XSI vs Maya, Maya&Max vs XSI.. and then the 2008 deal went down.
The mainstream CG world got paralyzed since then and reached a uniformity I still cannot imagine happening in the 2010's.

Even Maya people are not happy with this situation, more and more of them start thinking that ever since AD bought their main competitor, big DCCs have reached a huge stagnation that benefits to no one, not even AD.

Please AD, bring Soft back to a decent and fair exposure, at least closer to the one it deserves or sell it back if you're embarrassed.
I'm sure there's a lot of interested and rich people who would buy it, you'll make money out of your 2008 deal and you'll make anger go down.

Everybody knows ICE integration in Maya would have been done already if it was as easy as you guys thought when you closed the deal with Avid.
Just get inspired by the concept, help yourself with the code, hook it up to your weapon and get ours back to light. Just get the party started again, I'm sure you'll feel unexpected benefits.

Give back the choice of interaction model to people. This is more the center of the debate than the actual technological value.
Both packages have their strengths and weaknesses but please let people choose, a lot of them are artists, not only technicians.

Don't wait until someone comes up with a high performance DCC-like suite made with Fabric Engine or whatever, because a this point, more people than you expect will jump on it and the downhill might be steep.
Maya might end up just as a keyframing tool that allows a producer to line up 50 animators on the spot without any training costs. All the TDs that have been building it's worth for years deserves better.


Monday, September 10, 2012 4:15 PM
I don't know, it used to be something those marketing/pr people stay up at night and come up with those nifty slogans.

I can just say that Softimage would probably replace 80% of the so called "pipeline tools" that are created to work around the software. Just put any Maya artist infront of a vanilla install of Maya and they will scream... :)
ICE would probably wipe out 90% of the in-house scripts that are created. And instead they would have a better modal/nodal system to work with.

But.... the main problem these days is probably not the technology, it's finding the people who can do it. Not a lot of Softimage artists that are highlevel TD's around. Most of them are on this list, and they already have a job :)

regards
stefan andersson

--
stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com
Monday, September 10, 2012 3:55 PM
"I don't want Softimage to be a good companion to Maya&3dsmax, I want Softimage to kick their ass and make all users leave their software and use Softimage instead!!"

This is a perfectly valid point, however playing a neutral card for a moment and to just throw something out there....how do we do that?
There are plenty of Maya/Max based studios out there, skilled up, decent pipeline with some tech & tools, and producing very good and capable work for years, how would you get them to then rip all that up and go with Softimage?
I'm not sure it's that easy, expanding the capability of a pipeline by adding another solution/software is one thing, but a complete replacement/retool of your core 3D app? That's a whole bigger thing altogether.


G


From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Leoung O'Young
Sent: 10 September 2012 20:35
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: In case you missed it..

Stefan, I totally agreed with you rant....hopefully we are wrong
We are sitting on the fence about upgrading our licenses, at this point we will have to take a hard long look.

We have been with Softimage/XSI since the early '90..

Leoung

On 9/10/2012 3:07 PM, Stefan Andersson wrote:
Just to throw some more gasoline onto the fire.

So the value to a 3dsmax/Maya user would be to use Softimage as a particle plugin. Everything else their respective Software is good at.

I know you don't agree with them Graham, and it's not you who "wrote/made" this :) It's been said over and over again on this list, it doesn't seem that Autodesk cares about Softimage.

And it's for that reason alone that I don't recommend anyone (anymore) to buy or learn Softimage. Autodesk representatives on this list is trying to assure us, but apparently those people have absolutely NO contact with the Marketing/PR people. It's not that we have been asking for much, but the way they market Softimage and the way new users and studios look at Softimage... well... you get my point.

I don't want Softimage to be a good companion to Maya&3dsmax, I want Softimage to kick their ass and make all users leave their software and use Softimage instead!! But that is not in Autodesk view a good thing. And for this reason I think Autodesk is really bad for Softimage.

Why is attitude and "kick butt" mentality a bad thing? it's what keeps a lot of us going and improving our-self. It's what makes us trying to reach for those extra 10% in a production.

Am I pissed at Autodesk? you bet you sweet ass I am. I spent years behind Softimage and got companies to buy the software that were Maya based, and really really tried to get it to work...
With ICE I had big hopes. But... Autodesk had little incentive to kick Maya/3dsmax out the window. They made Softimage into a particle plugin.

So what happens now?

I know it's pointless rant, and it just adds fuel to the fire. But it's difficult to talk about something positive when it comes to Softimage. It's like having a Formula One car, but you live in the country side and no one understands why you have it.

Sorry for the rant everyone.

best regards
Stefan
On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Graham Bell <Graha...@autodesk.com<mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com>> wrote:
Perhaps worth pointing out that this is a Entertainment Creation 'Suites' magazine and of the course the two main flavours (Ultimate aside) for the Suites are Maya and Max. And therefore the three packages shown in the image are all including in the Maya/Max Suites, hence the reason for trying to show their value to those respective users.



From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com> [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com>] On Behalf Of Paul Griswold
Sent: 10 September 2012 15:08
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:soft...@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: In case you missed it..

This is the kind of stuff that makes me really dislike Autodesk: http://yfrog.com/h0t6exxtj

I'm glad to know Softimage is a particle system that has single-step interoperability with the apps in the "Areas of Excellence" (Max and Maya).



-Paul



--
stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com

Monday, September 10, 2012 3:34 PM

Matt Lind

unread,
Sep 10, 2012, 10:09:28 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

Depending on your job that can be doable or not.

 

There are many more factors at stake other than what software you use.  You have to factor in age, family situation, and so on.  The older you get, the more difficult it is to get another job because your salary requirements are higher.  If your expertise is obsoleted, not too many companies are going to take on an expensive veteran with less applied knowledge than a youngster at half the cost who is fresh legs in the subject.

 

In my case I’ll probably have to go into some other discipline to abstract myself away from the problem.  Not unheard of, but it’s not trivial to start a new career either.

 

Matt

 

 

 

 

From: softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimag...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Steven Caron
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 6:59 PM
To: soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: In case you missed it..

 

i get that, might have missed the context which eric was response was too, but i still think its possible to build knowledge in an app and translate it and at least return to your prior rank and earnings after a bit of time. but i think i am diverging from the points trying to be made here, if autodesk could better market softimage and actually vastly improve its market share (ignoring if thats even in their interest to do) you wouldn't have to learn a new package :)

Steven Caron

unread,
Sep 10, 2012, 10:40:40 PM9/10/12
to soft...@listproc.autodesk.com
right, talking about survival here, i recognize the difficulty.

Guy Rabiller

unread,
Sep 10, 2012, 10:57:34 PM9/10/12
to Sylvain Lebeau, soft...@listproc.autodesk.com

Well, I'm not sure it will happen but what I'm sure though, is that:


1) OpenSource softwares/communities depend on how they are managed,
what's the goal behind, the spirit, the motivations. It's not because
Blender is what it is that another project should be and behave the same
way.

There are big 'industrial' open source softwares supported by
communities of companies. After all, are not almost all of the big 3D
CGI companies working on Linux ?


2) Developping open source and free softwares does not always mean not
beeing paid for it. Developpers can be supported by companies,
communities, individuals, etc.. How do you think Firefox, Thunderbird
and a multitude of other opensource softwares developpers are eating ?
They are paid for it, yet the softwares are free and opensources. Who
developped OpenEXR, PTex, Alembic, etc.. ? All companies employees.

And there are zillions of other opensource softwares like this in other
industries and areas that are in the same situation and have the same
business model.

Plus this is the ultimate solution against piracy. Peoples paid to
create free products.

This is a working business model but strangely it seems very few peoples
are really aware of it.


3) If nobody does nothing, nothing will never happen.


4) Fortunately, some peoples are already working on it.


Cheers,
Guy.
--
guy rabiller | raa.tel | radfac founder/ceo
tel: 0977 195 006 | mob: 0675 183 146 | fax: 0972 288 293



Le 11/09/2012 04:02, Sylvain Lebeau a écrit :
> i agree with you Guy,
> Autodesk will keep the patents for sure to try to pimp up Maya.
>
> But... Open source software has a so chaotic and stochastic
> developpement scheme. Check how blender evolves. Lotsa new features all
> the time, but all in separatly sparsed developpement cocoons. And it is
> always buggy and flaky... Just like being on Alpha or beta versions all
> the time. And one day you even end up with a totally new interface.
> Surprise!
>
> Of course, we can see very nice things like Alembic or OpenExr as file
> formats as open source efforts. But who will want to create pieces of
> softwares without earning from it with all the developpement involved
> for serious rock solid production proven packages? Wow that would be
> awesome in a perfect world.
>
> I see a big difference between GIMP and a top of the line 3D app. Or
> modules? ... that would be even worst for interop integrety i think. I
> dont know.
>
> you really think it will happen? It would be cool for sure!
>
> sly
>
>> Guy Rabiller <mailto:guy.ra...@radfac.com>
>> Monday, September 10, 2012 9:34 PM
>>
>>
>> > Please AD, bring Soft back to a decent and fair exposure, at least
>> > closer to the one it deserves or sell it back if you're embarrassed.
>> > I'm sure there's a lot of interested and rich people who would buy it,
>> > you'll make money out of your 2008 deal and you'll make anger go down.
>>
>> That, I think, will never happen, because AD did not buy Softimage for
>> XSI but for the patents Softimage had over its technologies. Reselling
>> Softimage would mean reselling the patents as well, and that is
>> precisely what they want to avoid. Buying as much patents as possible
>> is the only way to really shadow competitors.
>>
>>
>> > Don't wait until someone comes up with a high performance DCC-like
>> suite made with ../..
>>
>> That's why I keep on saying the 'true' solution will have to come up
>> from the Open Source community. This is the only valid path. But it
>> will take some time.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Guy.
>> --
>> guy rabiller | raa.tel | radfac founder/ceo
>> tel: 0977 195 006 | mob: 0675 183 146 | fax: 0972 288 293
>>
>>
>>
>> Halim Negadi <mailto:hne...@gmail.com>
>> Stefan Andersson <mailto:sand...@gmail.com>
>> Monday, September 10, 2012 4:15 PM
>> I don't know, it used to be something those marketing/pr people stay
>> up at night and come up with those nifty slogans.
>>
>> I can just say that Softimage would probably replace 80% of the so
>> called "pipeline tools" that are created to work around the software.
>> Just put any Maya artist infront of a vanilla install of Maya and they
>> will scream... :)
>> ICE would probably wipe out 90% of the in-house scripts that are
>> created. And instead they would have a better modal/nodal system to
>> work with.
>>
>> But.... the main problem these days is probably not the technology,
>> it's finding the people who can do it. Not a lot of Softimage artists
>> that are highlevel TD's around. Most of them are on this list, and
>> they already have a job :)
>>
>> regards
>> stefan andersson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> stefan andersson - digital janitor - http://sanders3d.wordpress.com
>> Graham Bell <mailto:Graha...@autodesk.com>