Bondtech QR Extruder Upgrade

[Bob Kolbasowski]

For a few reasons, I have upgraded to BondTech Extruders.

Not so time-consuming, about 2 hours of work at a slow pace, and I'll never have an extruder headache again. I have included pics and stl if you wish to do the same.

/R,

Bob

[Michael Miller]

Very nice! That's one expensive upgrade... Does it print any better now?

[Brad Bourne]

Thank you so much for this! I was wanting to get backups/upgrade

[Bob Kolbasowski]

The prints are noticeably better quality.  The biggest things this has addressed is:

-Under Extrusion / Perfect Extrusion – step rate changed from 300 to 954.

-Increased Reliability – both sides of filament are now gripped, allowing my Z offset to put the build platform practically against the nozzle, and the extruder has so much more power that it effortlessly pushes the plastic out – making an excellent bond to the plate. With the stock extruders, I would hear knocking sounds of the filament skipping because there wasn’t enough power.

-I also believe that any Bowden setup should have a geared extruder due to the fact of the increased resistance of pushing the filament through the tube.

-Another reason why I think the prints are better now is due to the Z axis having a little more weight on it, preventing Z axis hop.

[Jeremy Campbell]

Hi Bob, 

Did you buy one of their kits for this upgrade? Could you provide a link to the product you purchased?

Thanks!

[Bob Kolbasowski]

Jeremy,

I bought the QR 1.75 Universals, both right hand. 

http://shop.bondtech.se/ec/extruders/bondtech-qr-175-universal.html

[Michael Miller]

Any chance you can post before and after prints? :) 

[Nic Sievers]

cool stuff man!  It's what I love out 3 printing and the opensource nature of it... just make it what you want.  

[Bob Kolbasowski]

Michael,

Unfortunately, I do not have any good pics of items that I printed before the extruder modification. Most of them were partial prints because I started off with the blue filament. Then when I used my flir thermal camera I discovered how hot the extruder motor was getting and added a heat sink (40mm x 40mm) with 24 volt fan. This kept it able to do full prints with the blue but still I would randomly have the extruder skipping and sometimes have to manually assist. 

I can tell you that I now have no failed prints since this mod. True, they were not cheap, but given that this machine has a large print volume I think it is money well spent when considering a print failing at the 12+ hour mark - that sucks.

[Dimitri naut]

Hey Bob, I received the extruder and printed the mount, Im assuming you drilled 4 new holes to screw in the mount on top? its been a pain in the ass to get hardware locally I may have to order online as well.

[Bob Kolbasowski]

Yup yup.
You'll have to drill the four bolt holes and cut the metal bracket at the 90' bend where it mounts the original extruders.
Also, you will have to change the firmware to the new step rate and in my case, reverse one of the extruders to push the correct way.
If any of this isn't clear, let me know and I'll go a bit further in a how-to.

/R,
Bob

[Jeremy Campbell]

Which option did you go with?

	Cable Standard cable (2510 connector)
	Ultimaker 2 & 1 cable
	Dupont connector
	Raise N1 & N2 printer

Thanks!

[Bob Kolbasowski]

Jeremy,
Here is exactly what I ordered, with product #

Qty.    Item                                 Item Price    Total     
2    Bondtech QR Universal Extruder - 1.75mm - Product No. 98027001    $178.00        $356.00     
2    Groove Mount Bowden Adapter - 1.75mm - Product No. 106277003    $16.00        $32.00     
2    E3D PTFE Bowden Tubing - 1.75mm (750mm) - Product No. 65087005    $10.00        $20.00   

/R,
Bob

[Dimitri naut]

Ya I can see it in your pictures now its a little dark on my phone and PC, Ill have to wait till the weekend since I dont have the proper tools, and just a couple questions. If your using simplify3d where do I locate the reversal of extruder and I printed a filament guide but whats the difference between the guide and the Groove mount bowden adapter? Should I purchase the adapters?

[Bob Kolbasowski]

Dimitri,
If you have purchased one 'left hand' and one 'right hand' extruders then you will not have to do the reverse setting or need the bowden adapter. In my case, I bought two right hand extruders (because that is all matterhackers sells), so if you look at the pics - one extruder is rotated 180'. Because it is rotated 180' you have to set the flag in the marlin firmware to push that extruder in reversed rotation and you will need the bowden adapter - the extruder can work in either direction, the problem is that only the top of the extruder has a bowden mount, and the bottom is open but has the slot for the bowden mount to be placed inside.

Once I get home this evening I'll take some screen shots of where in the firmware you have to change rotation and step rate - not hard at all.

[Dimitri naut]

Technically I have only purchased the right extruder at the moment and going to purchase the other in a month or two, so I see what your saying and Ill just buy a left extruder(if available), thanks so much for your assistance.

[Bob Kolbasowski]

No problem at all.

As long as when you install the extruder into the holder 'right side up' (the sticker label will be right side up) then you wont have to do the reversal change in the firmware and I believe you can also adjust the step rate through the settings on the front panel.

ALSO, there are two wires on the motor connector that have to be swapped - I'll provide a pic once I get home.

[Bob Kolbasowski]

[Dimitri naut]

Testing out now, may have some adjusting to do but just wanted to thank you again esp. on the wire swap, probably would of missed that. Cant wait to buy another!

[Bob Kolbasowski]

Your welcome, no problem at all - glad I could help.

Let me know how to works out.

[Jeremy Campbell]

Hey Bob, 

I am going to do this upgrade soon, but on my motors the wiring is on top and not on the bottom. did you change the orientation of the motor to get both of the motor wires to face the bottom?

Thanks,

Jeremy

[arg2761]

Jeremy:

The Lorei Assembly Guide shows the extruder motors with the connecter pointing down. It obviously works with the connect pointing up.

It it fits... :-)

Regards,

Al

[Jeremy Campbell]

Al,

On the bracket to mount the new Bond Tech extruders, the clearance between the bracket and the wiring is almost non existent. The Bond Tech motors have the wiring on top instead of the bottom.

Thanks,

Jeremy

[arg2761]

Jeremy:

I was trying to say that the orientation of the connector does not affect the operation of the motor. If there is no clearance they way they come from factory, can you rotate them 180 degrees? It should be fine.

Those Bond Tech extruders are on my to-do list. It would be interesting to know the answer.

Regards,

Al

[Bob Kolbasowski]

Jeremy,

Yes, I did change the orientation by unscrewing the extruder mechanism and rotating the motor. Turned out to be very easy.  

[Jeremy Campbell]

Thanks Bob and Al I appreciate the information!

[arg2761]

Jeremy:

I would very much like to read your impressions once you get them up and running.

Regards,

Al

[Wiliam C]

2510 connectors are standard right? You said you changed yours?

[Wiliam C]

Standard cable (2510 connector) 155.00 155.00
2 10201 Filament guide 1.75 2.00 4.00
FedEx International Priority 20.90
Fee 5.68
Total USD 185.58

I purchased two guides right away, because matterhackers is selling them for $12/ea?

[Bob Kolbasowski]

The electrical connectors from the printer were a direct match for the bondtech supplied motors. I did have to swap two of the four wires as the motors supplied from bondtech have a slightly different pinout.

[Dnnsea]

What color wires did you have to swap for the new part? I just ordered two of them myself and would really like to know :)

[Bob Kolbasowski]

[Dnnsea]

Hey bob,
Did you have to loosen the extenders screws to get them to fit into the new support carriage you build? Also what size of screws is the carriage dimensioned for?

[Bob Kolbasowski]

Dnnsea,
Sorry for the late reply, I've been a bit swamped with work since I got back.

By extenders did you mean extruders? The extruders fit tightly into the carriage holder, I don't remember having to loosen the extruders to have them fit in the saddles. Also, I can't remember off the top of my head the screw size, I'll take a look once I get home.

/R,
Bob

[Dnnsea]

Ya that's what I meant, stupid auto predict. Ok thanks

[Wiliam C]

Mine arrived in the mail, It doesn't look like the original mounting holes will work in its current configuration.

So remount the x axis motor.. or move extruder locations.. hmm

[Jeremy]

Hi Bob,

I finally have my new Bondtech extruders mounted, and wires flipped, so I guess I need to change the firmware for the new stepper motors. Should I use the firmware that's on GitHub or is there somewhere else I should get it? I was also wondering which setting it was I needed to change.

Thanks,
Jeremy

[Dnnsea]

Can anyone tell me why I have to switch the wire pin connectors? Mainly why do I need to plug the yellow wire in a different pin? I'm new to 3d printing and very new to understanding stepper motors and how to wire them up right

[Jeremy]

I found What I was looking for after finding the manual.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7A1MEUY39HCaXdjcF9DYzdYcXM/view

Steps / millimeter
Use 476.55 steps / millimeter (1.75mm) and 492.45 steps/mm (3.0mm) as a start point when using 16 bit micro stepping, fine tune the steps by cutting off the filament flush with the extruder, then extrude 100 mm and measure the extruded length. Example: If you measure 97 mm then change the steps/mm setting in your firmware to 476.55 * (100/97) = 491,28 steps/mm.

In order to set the steps/mm value in your printer you can use the following method. Connect to your printer with your favorite program that lets you send G-codes to your printer.
Send the following commands to your printer controller: M92 E492.45 (to set e-step to 492.45 steps/mm) M500 (to store new value in Eprom of the controller)

Thanks!

[Jeremy]

Dnnsea,

This is what the manual Page 12 says:

Reversing rotation direction.
You will need to switch position of the green & yellow cable, this reverse the direction.

[arg2761]

Jeremy:

So one has to reverse the wires. But no need to change the firmware for the "reverse" extruder.

Regards,

AL

[Dnnsea]

Oh wow I'm a dummy, I moved the yellow wire to the pin next to the red instead of swapping the yellow and green. To be honest the pic bob used looks like the yellow cable was just moved :P

[Jeremy]

I got confused with the pic too. I did get everything connected up last night , but I could not get the extruders to do anything. I hope you have better luck. 

[Jeremy]

I got all the motors running.. looks like there is some tweaking to do in the firmware/slicer. Not sure i have all the numbers right.

[Dnnsea]

Anyone know how to change the step per mm or what to change them to when you change out a stepper motor?

[Jeremy]

From the Bondtech manual:

[Jeremy]

You can also change it in the firmware:

https://www.matterhackers.com/news/3d-printer-firmware-settings-stepper-motor-configuration

[Dnnsea]

Ok but I also replaced my x axis stepper motor and it doesn't run the right steps now, was wondering how do I figure out the right steps per mm to change it to

[Dnnsea]

I was able to add the bondtech stepper motors by getting a smaller nema 17 28mm motor. But my issue now is getting the x axis stepper to work right.

[arg2761]

Dnnsea:

Can you post the specs of your new motor? With that info, we can use the formula to solve for your motor.

These are the specs of the Lorei's motors:

Model	42HB34F04AB
Step Angle		1.8。
Motor Length	34	(mm)
Rate Voltage	13.2	(V)
Rated Current	0.4	(A)
Phase Resistance	33	(Ω)
Phase Inductance	45	(mH)
Holding Torque	2.4	(Kg.cm)
Lead Wire	4	(NO.)
Rotor Inertia	34	(g.cm²)
Motor Weight	200	(g)
Insulation Resistance	100MΩMin. ,500VDC

[arg2761]

If your new motor "Step Angle" is 1.8 degrees, you don't need to do anything. It should work right up.

Since you state it doesn't work correctly, my assumption is that the "step angle" in your new motor is different than the step angle of the stock Lorei motor.

I took all formulas from the MatterHacker link Jeremy posted above. As always, please don't be shy to point out mistakes (I'm learning as I go).

Solving for the stock Lorei X-Axis motor:

Circle	360	degrees
Motor Step Angle	1.8	degrees
Steps	200		Circle / Motor Step Angle
Microstepping	0.03125	1/32”
Microsteps	6400		Steps / Microstepping
Belt Pitch	2	mm
Gear (teeth)	20
Steps per mm	160		Microsteps / Belt Pitch / Gear (teeth)

I calculated the the Lorei's X-Axis motors should be set to 160 steps per mm.

Looking at the Lorei's "Configuration.h":

#define DEFAULT_AXIS_STEPS_PER_UNIT   {160,160,3200,300}  // steps per unit X,Y,Z,E

You need to take the "step angle" for your new motor, plug it into the formulas above, and you get the "steps per mm".

Easier yet, go to http://www.prusaprinters.org/calculator/#MotorStuffSPMB (the link for this calculator is found in the link Jeremy shared).

Find the "Stepper Motors" calculator (second from the top). Plug in your motor step angle, the driver micro stepping (1/32), belt pitch (2 mm), and the pulley tooth count (20).

The result will be the value to plug in with a GCode or into the "configuration.h" (to do a firmware update).

Let me know how it goes.

Regards,

Al

[Dnnsea]

I think it may be the rated current it needs 0.6 A instead of 0.4A. The step angle is 1.8
Here is the link to the stepper motor I got it's the first one at the top of the list.
http://www.motionking.com/Products/Hybrid_Stepper_Motors/2-phase/17H2A_Stepper_Motor_42mm_1.8degree.htm

[arg2761]

Dnnsea:

The Rated current is 0.6A. You should adjust the Vref (voltage reference) in your X-Axis stepper driver. Your current Lorei Vref setting will be lower than needed.

This write-up tells you how to set the Vref: http://matterhackers.dozuki.com/Guide/Tuning+Motor+Current/37

Lorei Stepper Driver	DRV8825
Continuous Current per phase		1.5	A
Rated Current	Imax	0.6	(motor rated current)
Current Limit = VREF × 2
VREF = Current Limit / 2
	VREF	0.3	Volt DC
Recommended	VREF 90%	0.27	Volt DC

The Vref for the stock Lorei motors is 0.2 Volt DC (recommended: 0.18 Volt DC). I don't know to what your's is set; mine needed a little adjustment.

If you don't adjust the Vref, the new motor will be current "starved". Don't know if this would be an issue.

Sidebar: I don't know how significant this is, the "holding torque" of the new motor is about half that of the stock Lorei motor.

Please, let me know if any of this helps you.

Regards,

Al

[arg2761]

Dnnsea:

Please, do not take this the wrong way. :-)

A better choice would have been "17H2A3404"

Al

[Dnnsea]

Ok thanks I'll try it later on sometime this week, I needed the smaller size to fit the bondtechs in the metal housing without cutting anything off :P thought it might have been better. So just wanted to try something different.

[Dnnsea]

Jeremy what did you do in your firmware/slicer to get your bondtech motors to run. I cant get mine to run, I've upped the voltage from 0.20 vref to 0.42vref. I am using simplified 3D really could use some help on this if anyone else is using bondtech now.

[Jeremy]

You have to heat up your hot ends before the extruders will function. Part of the new firmware.

[Jon Gagnon]

Did you get it to work?  I have the same problem.

[Jeremy]

I have attached my Setup for the firmware. You could probably compare the
configuration.h and the configuration_adv.h to yours to see what I changed.

[Gan jackie]

how about these stepper motor?

https://www.oyostepper.com/category-7-b0-Nema-23-Stepper-Motor.html

https://www.oyostepper.com/category-9-b0-Nema-34-Stepper-Motor.html

Has anyone purchased motor before, their price seem is reasonable?

[Jon]

I replaced mine with openbuild ones a while back, no problem replacing the but I had to readjust the driver voltage after replacing them.