Bounty on first release of Phoenix

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David Hughes

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May 5, 2016, 9:01:28 AM5/5/16
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To encourage an official first release of Phoenix as soon as can be, it's been suggested we raise a bounty to be paid to Robin when this happens. Going through an online fund raising service would not only be a hassle but they will end up pocketing up to 10% of the cash (e.g. bountysource.com). I have been in touch with Robin about this and he is OK with me coordinating the raising of pledges among ourselves here.

I don't know if it will help to set a target amount but I'm suggesting one of $10,000 US dollars - note, this is a target, not an upper limit <wink>. The good news is that we are already half way there and the pledged total is currently $5,000.

If you want to announce a donation, large or small, here in public, that's fine but in any case please let me know so I can keep track of things and send you the details for making payment when the time comes. Please email forestfield.software<at>gmail.com (the public PGP key is attached) or use Whatsapp to contact +44 7971 336995 (which uses end to end encryption) and I will keep you all informed of progress.

I think the best way of making payments will be by direct transfer to a bank account of Robin's choice, but I'm also able to process debit and credit card payments in Euros, UK pounds and US, Canadian and Australian dollars, although these will incur (credit) card charges and possibly currency exchange costs.

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David Hughes
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John Fabiani

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May 5, 2016, 9:49:10 AM5/5/16
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If what you are saying is real - would you please have Robin provide an email to the group saying so!

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Mario Lacunza

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May 5, 2016, 11:33:08 AM5/5/16
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I think better is use PayPal, bank transfer is very expensive for non USA/Europe people.

Enviado desde mi LG G4

Chris Barker

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May 5, 2016, 7:02:29 PM5/5/16
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Yes, we should hear that before anyone starts sending in any money, but for what it's worth, David has been part of this community for a very long time, and I know both Robin and myself have had successful consulting relationships with him. He is quite reliable.

-Chris

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David Hughes

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May 6, 2016, 4:51:09 AM5/6/16
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On 06/05/2016 00:01, Chris Barker wrote:
Yes, we should hear that before anyone starts sending in any money, but for what it's worth, David has been part of this community for a very long time, and I know both Robin and myself have had successful consulting relationships with him. He is quite reliable.

-Chris


On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 6:49 AM, John Fabiani <fabian...@gmail.com> wrote:
If what you are saying is real - would you please have Robin provide an email to the group saying so!

If Robin doesn't respond automatically in the next day or two, I'll email him and ask him to do so. To be clear, I am not asking for money to be sent anywhere at the moment, just for promises - in public or in private - for when Phoenix is officially released.


 
On 05/05/2016 16:33, Mario Lacunza wrote:

I think better is use PayPal, bank transfer is very expensive for non USA/Europe people.


Yes, International bank transfers can be expensive, especially for smaller payments and that's why I am offering to process card payments through my existing account with WorldPay. I don't have any arrangements with PayPal but I would be happy to look into it if there is sufficient demand.

John Fabiani

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May 6, 2016, 10:27:22 AM5/6/16
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I'll provide $250.00 towards the effort.  But I need to see an email from Robin first.  I want to hear that he is willing to accept the money to move Phoenix forward.  I'm already suspicious because it's been a few days and I haven't seen anything from Robin.

Johnf

David Woods

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May 6, 2016, 10:47:49 AM5/6/16
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Hi John,

Don't get suspicious too quickly.  Robin's appearances on this list have been few and far between for a long while now.  I don't think he follows this list closely, instead putting his limited resources into following wxPython-dev.  I would guess he only looks at it when prodded on a specific issue.

I agree that official word from Robin is needed, but if I see that word come through in the next couple of weeks, that will be good enough for me!

David

John Fabiani

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May 6, 2016, 11:44:49 AM5/6/16
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Will someone please poke him - then!  BTW I took a quick look at the wxpython-dev group and I didn't see a message from Robin - not in the last week?

Wow weeks!  If Robin is aware wouldn't he just say something like - thanks  for the offer guys but I will not have time or some other message?
Please don't mis-understand I don't expect that Phoenix will be stable in a day, week, or months.  But no response - that's a concern.

Johnf

Tim Roberts

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May 6, 2016, 12:03:30 PM5/6/16
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On May 6, 2016, at 8:44 AM, John Fabiani <fabian...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Will someone please poke him - then! BTW I took a quick look at the wxpython-dev group and I didn't see a message from Robin - not in the last week?
>
> Wow weeks! If Robin is aware wouldn't he just say something like - thanks for the offer guys but I will not have time or some other message?
> Please don't mis-understand I don't expect that Phoenix will be stable in a day, week, or months. But no response - that's a concern.

Robin has a real paying job. Real jobs occasionally get busy, and that sucks up time that would otherwise be spent on hobbies. Be patient.

Tim Roberts, ti...@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

Chris Barker

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May 6, 2016, 12:33:12 PM5/6/16
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On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 8:44 AM, John Fabiani <fabian...@gmail.com> wrote:
 If Robin is aware wouldn't he just say something like - thanks  for the offer guys but I will not have time or some other message?
Please don't mis-understand I don't expect that Phoenix will be stable in a day, week, or months.  But no response - that's a concern.

This is actually a response to a post by Robin suggesting that a bounty-on-release would be a good motivator for him. David is simply providing a mechanism, as it looks lke the existing sytems like indigogo, etc are well sutioed ans would take out a substantial overhead.

Quote from Robin:

"""
Although the desire to complete Phoenix is still present, maybe it is time for more motivation to help get me over the first mountain, although I really hate asking for donations.  There really isn't any hardware or other tools that I need to do the work, and payments along the way are not really motivating for me these days, but perhaps a larger bounty upon completion of the first official Phoenix release would be the right carrot to help get me moving forward and to keep moving at a steady pace.
"""

So we still need to define the size of the bounty, and perhaps a definition of "first official Phoenix release", and probably SOME time scale, but this isn't just wishful thinking.

-CHB



Umar Yusuf

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May 6, 2016, 12:45:07 PM5/6/16
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This is a welcome idea. Lets keep wxPy alive...

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Emad Dlala

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May 6, 2016, 12:48:00 PM5/6/16
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Patience, please! No need for throwing suspicions, as we all should know that Robin is busy.   

Robin Dunn

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May 6, 2016, 12:50:27 PM5/6/16
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John Fabiani wrote:
> If what you are saying is real - would you please have Robin provide
> an email to the group saying so!

Yes, I can confirm this. David approached me off-list to discuss this
and offered to take on the coordination of the effort, and I gladly
accepted. I believe we can rely on him to be honorable in this endeavor
and I have no worries about anything underhanded happening.

--
Robin Dunn
Software Craftsman
http://wxPython.org

ricpol

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May 6, 2016, 1:04:15 PM5/6/16
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Il giorno giovedì 5 maggio 2016 15:01:28 UTC+2, David Hughes ha scritto:

To encourage an official first release of Phoenix as soon as can be, it's been suggested we raise a bounty to be paid to Robin when this happens. Going through an online fund raising service would not only be a hassle but they will end up pocketing up to 10% of the cash (e.g. bountysource.com). I have been in touch with Robin about this and he is OK with me coordinating the raising of pledges among ourselves here.

I don't know if it will help to set a target amount but I'm suggesting one of $10,000 US dollars - note, this is a target, not an upper limit <wink>. The good news is that we are already half way there and the pledged total is currently $5,000.


Count me in of course (I'll send you an email with amount and details).
If you could accept a PayPal transfer, that would be great.

Maybe we should advertise this bounty a bit more? Perhaps on the wxpython homepage, on the wiki, github readme, etc.
As far as I know, this thread is the only place where this announcement has appeared so far.

Also, a few days ago, Andrea Gavana started a thread expressing his interest in helping out - it would be nice to hear from you again here, Andrea.

riccardo

Robin Dunn

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May 6, 2016, 1:04:54 PM5/6/16
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Robin Dunn wrote:
> John Fabiani wrote:
>> If what you are saying is real - would you please have Robin provide
>> an email to the group saying so!
>
> Yes, I can confirm this. David approached me off-list to discuss this
> and offered to take on the coordination of the effort, and I gladly
> accepted. I believe we can rely on him to be honorable in this
> endeavor and I have no worries about anything underhanded happening.
>

One more thing. It's been mentioned already but in case there are still
any worries about it, we are talking only about pledges for the time
being. Nobody is required to send any money anywhere until the bounty
is granted. If anybody wishes to contribute to the fund now, while it
is on your mind, I expect that David can take care of that too. But
please check with him about those details. (Things like transfer fees if
the release doesn't happen and the money is returned to you, etc.)

Emad Dlala

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May 6, 2016, 1:16:06 PM5/6/16
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Thank you Robin for your commitment to wxPython for many years! 

It'd be nice to make Phoenix as awesome as possible. Andrea Ganava has done marvelous work too with the aui stuff. I hope Robin and Andrea are coordinating! I'm sure there are other people that deserve mention and appreciation too. So thanks to everyone who's contributed to wxPython. 

I encourage everyone to chip in with what they can. Also, since I'm sure some of us can ask finical help from our  respective organizations, it'd be useful if we make an announcement some "known" website such as wxpython.org. This can help as an evidence where we donated the money to. 

Regards,
Emad

John Fabiani

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May 6, 2016, 6:01:33 PM5/6/16
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Sorry I did not see this email before right now!  OK I'm convinced.  As said before I can afford a  pledge of $250.00  .

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 10:04 AM, Robin Dunn <ro...@alldunn.com> wrote:

Brendan Barnwell

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May 10, 2016, 2:30:56 AM5/10/16
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That's certainly a promising idea, and I'd be willing to pledge money toward that.  I'd like to know, though, what "an official first release" means.  I've asked before on this list about when Phoenix would be ready, and was told that "you can already use it".  So for me to feel like there was a substantive difference between that and an "official" release would have to mean that, basically, I can do anything and everything with Phoenix that I can currently do with wxPython on Python 2.  (And, ideally, with minimal code changes required beyond those already required to make any Python 2 code run on Python 3.)

Also, I hate to mention this, but it does make me slightly nervous that the life or death of the entire future of wxPython appears to be completely dependent on a single individual.  Does this mean that if (heaven forbid) he gets hit by a bus or something, all hope of wxPython on Python 3 is dashed?  Whenever I look at this list (which is admittedly not all that often), I get that feeling.  That makes me wonder if it is ultimately worth it to push for getting an initial release out the door.  We don't just need an initial release, we need "wxPython works, smoothly and completely, on Python 3", with everything that entails, and it's not clear to me that there's the wherewithal to make that happen.

Anyway, like I said, I'd be willing to pledge some money toward an initial release, but I think there are some important issues to face up to beyond that.

johnf

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May 11, 2016, 9:25:12 AM5/11/16
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I too have concerns about a one man show.  But think about this - there are several GUI lib's and they too are one man shows - i.e. PyQT - still going strong.  The only one I know of that wasn't a one man show was pyside and that didn't last very long (although I think they are trying to revive it).  There are many one man shows in the open source world.  
The other issue is our investment in learning and using wxPython.  I for one do not want to lose that investment.  And if we can get the word out many will donate just to protect that investment.  I don't know where we are in reaching the goal - but I hope it's close!

Johnf

Emad Dlala

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May 11, 2016, 11:43:42 AM5/11/16
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First, I wouldn't call this a show. It's real work, but I know what you mean. 
Second, there are more than one person who contributed to the development to wxPython. So it's not one, even though Robin has been the main developer. 
Third, I wouldn't speculate too much now about the longer term vision, and if we do, we should keep it in a separate thread, and better after the release of Phoenix. The goal in this thread is to collect bounty for the developers toward the release of Phoenix. So let's not diverge please.   

David Highs,

Any update about the payment procedure? I sent you an email but I haven't heard back from you. Let's hit the iron while it's hot!

Emad

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Emad Dlala

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May 11, 2016, 11:46:05 AM5/11/16
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I meant David Hughes. 

David Hughes

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May 11, 2016, 12:20:08 PM5/11/16
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Thanks to everyone who has offered to contribute to the bounty on the first official release of wxPython. The total of pledges from this group  currently stands at $1,300 US. I am just collating names, contact details and pledged amounts at the moment.
 
On 10/05/2016 07:30, Brendan Barnwell wrote:
I'd like to know, though, what "an official first release" means.  I've asked before on this list about when Phoenix would be ready, and was told that "you can already use it".  So for me to feel like there was a substantive difference between that and an "official" release would have to mean that, basically, I can do anything and everything with Phoenix that I can currently do with wxPython on Python 2.

I am assuming that there will be an announcement from Robin, similar to the way he does update releases for wxPython Classic and that Phoenix will then be available from wxPython.org using the version numbering system that is currently being discussed and decided on wxPython_dev


On 05/05/2016 14:01, I wrote:
I think the best way of making payments will be by direct transfer to a bank account of Robin's choice, but I'm also able to process debit and credit card payments in Euros, UK pounds and US, Canadian and Australian dollars, although these will incur (credit) card charges and possibly currency exchange costs.

The general consensus for redeeming your pledges seems to be via PayPal, which also provides options for card payment. Since writing the above, I have discovered that Robin already uses PayPal and I expect he will create a page on wxpython.org or somewhere where you can make your payments directly to him - so please ignore what I said earlier.

Dietmar Schwertberger

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May 11, 2016, 12:47:42 PM5/11/16
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On 11.05.2016 18:20, David Hughes wrote:
>
> The total of pledges from this group currently stands at $1,300 US. I
> am just collating names, contact details and pledged amounts at the
> moment.
Didn't you write initially that the target is 10k and the pledged total
was 5k already?


Regards,

Dietmar

James Scholes

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May 11, 2016, 1:05:30 PM5/11/16
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Dietmar Schwertberger wrote:
> Didn't you write initially that the target is 10k and the pledged total
> was 5k already?

He said "The total of pledges from *this group*", not the total amount
pledged across the entire campaign. Presumably the total now stands at
$6,300USD.
--
James Scholes
http://twitter.com/JamesScholes

David Hughes

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May 11, 2016, 3:53:54 PM5/11/16
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On 11/05/2016 18:05, James Scholes wrote:
He said "The total of pledges from *this group*", not the total amount
pledged across the entire campaign.  Presumably the total now stands at
$6,300USD.

Yes, that's true.

Robin Dunn

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May 11, 2016, 10:37:12 PM5/11/16
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Brendan Barnwell wrote:
> That's certainly a promising idea, and I'd be willing to pledge money
> toward that. I'd like to know, though, what "an official first
> release" means. I've asked before on this list about when Phoenix
> would be ready, and was told that "you can already use it". So for me
> to feel like there was a substantive difference between that and an
> "official" release would have to mean that, basically, I can do
> anything and everything with Phoenix that I can currently do with
> wxPython on Python 2. (And, ideally, with minimal code changes
> required beyond those already required to make any Python 2 code run
> on Python 3.)

My definition of a first official release is a little different, but the
end result is basically the same as yours. Once the most glaring holes
have been plugged, when enough features are present that most developers
can switch from Classic without losing functionality, the demo, samples,
wx.lib and docs are updated and working reasonably, and the general
state of things is such that I won't be embarrassed to call it a
released product, then I'll release it. I'm working on a more specific
list of what all those items are, but I'm still rediscovering some of
them. People can influence what will get implemented and fixed by doing
some work and submitting either a PR or a fully diagnosed issue for it
on GitHub.

There will be some source level incompatibilities with Classic, but
getting rid of old hacks and other cruft was one of the goals of
Phoenix. OTOH, adding deprecated methods and/or documenting those
differences in the migration guide is also one of the factors leading to
being able to call it releasable in my opinion.

The intent for the release and distribution is to fully embrace using
PyPI. I think that their file size limit has been increased enough to
make that possible now, (it used to be some ridiculously small limit,
which is why Classic never made it there) and I think that will make the
most people happy to be able to get it that way.

> Also, I hate to mention this, but it does make me slightly nervous
> that the life or death of the entire future of wxPython appears to be
> completely dependent on a single individual. Does this mean that if
> (heaven forbid) he gets hit by a bus or something, all hope of
> wxPython on Python 3 is dashed?

I try to wear bus repellant as often as possible. :-) Seriously
though, the bus factor can be an issue on almost any project whether OSS
or not, whether it is a one-pony circus production or a medium-large
team. However I do think there are enough people with enough knowledge
of wxPython design and implementation that it's possible that wxPython
could live on beyond me, given enough time and desire to do so. I'm not
sure we can do any better than that without huge changes, like a paid staff.

> Whenever I look at this list (which is admittedly not all that often),
> I get that feeling. That makes me wonder if it is ultimately worth it
> to push for getting an initial release out the door. We don't just
> need an initial release, we need "wxPython works, smoothly and
> completely, on Python 3", with everything that entails, and it's not
> clear to me that there's the wherewithal to make that happen.

The main idea behind the pledges and the push for the release is to help
get me motivated and moving forward again. When I fell behind because
of various external factors it got to the point that it seemed to be a
very large and daunting task just to catch up and get moving forward
again. I tried a few times and had bursts of progress, but wasn't able
to stay focused for long enough. The hope is that the bounty will give
me enough of a push-start to get the engine running again in a
self-sustaining way. I'm hoping that reaching the first major release
milestone will get me over enough of the mountain that it will be easier
to keep going beyond that. One of the other purposes behind Phoenix is
to make it easier to maintain, add new features, etc. so that will help.

> Anyway, like I said, I'd be willing to pledge some money toward an
> initial release, but I think there are some important issues to face
> up to beyond that.

Thanks!

John Fabiani

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May 12, 2016, 10:31:58 AM5/12/16
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I'm so happy you are back!  If it will help you can have my pledge now - just give me the word.  I will be able to test as soon as there is a RC release.

Johnf

Marco Prosperi

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May 13, 2016, 3:17:32 AM5/13/16
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what about setting a time frame for the bounty? Maybe something like: the bounty decreases by 20% for every month of delay after 31/12/2016 if Phoenix is not already released yet by that date. I know that we are talking about open source sw and not closed source business software with respect to milestones but I would be willing to offer more for a release in an acceptable time horizon

Marco

David Woods

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May 13, 2016, 10:36:24 AM5/13/16
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-1

I do NOT like this idea.  I'd rather not incentivize cutting corners in honor of meeting some arbitrary deadline.  Just my opinion.

In my experience, you can release by a give date, ready or not, or you can release when ready, regardless of date.  I find the quality of the latter approach is generally better.

David



On 05/13/2016 02:17 AM, Marco Prosperi wrote:


what about setting a time frame for the bounty? Maybe something like: the bounty decreases by 20% for every month of delay after 31/12/2016 if Phoenix is not already released yet by that date. I know that we are talking about open source sw and not closed source business software with respect to milestones but I would be willing to offer more for a release in an acceptable time horizon

Marco

Dermot Doran

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May 13, 2016, 7:10:34 PM5/13/16
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I am also against a deadline because:
1.  It could defeat the whole purpose of the bounty (i.e. to provide incentive). For example, if Robin had to put all his time into something more important (like making sure the mortgage got paid) and fell a few months behind schedule, then he could be excused for throwing his hat at it!
2. As already touched upon, open software is usually of such a high quality because it doesn't have to worry about deadlines.


I hope this doesn't sound like too much of a put-down of Marco.  It is good that he shared his idea with the group.  Open source movements should never be afraid of discussing anything!


May the Phoenix rise up to bring wxPython to greater heights!

Dermot

Florian Höch

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Jun 29, 2016, 11:33:43 AM6/29/16
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Hi,

I'd like to chime in with a small pledge. Who do I contact/what do I
need to do?

Cheers
--
Florian Höch

David Hughes

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Jun 29, 2016, 11:59:44 AM6/29/16
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On 29/06/2016 16:33, Florian Höch wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'd like to chime in with a small pledge. Who do I contact/what do I
> need to do?
>
> Cheers

Email me (d...@forestfield.co.uk if it isn't showing above) with the
amount of your pledge, ensuring that your own email address or other
contact details are included.

I will contact you after Phoenix has been released with details of how
payment can be made e.g via Paypal.

Dev Player

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Oct 7, 2016, 6:58:05 PM10/7/16
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Just to point out there is a Donate Link that has probably been around for a long time.

DevPlayer

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Oct 25, 2016, 7:13:46 PM10/25/16
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Any updates on this? Any URL to view bounty or pledge activity?

David Hughes

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Oct 26, 2016, 9:58:34 AM10/26/16
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On Wednesday, 26 October 2016 00:13:46 UTC+1, DevPlayer wrote:
Any updates on this? Any URL to view bounty or pledge activity?

 There have currently been 10 pledges made directly or indirectly from this thread for a total of $2,150

Regards
David Hughes

DevPlayer

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Nov 7, 2016, 8:08:23 PM11/7/16
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And here is a perhaps another "Bounty Page" I just came across.

Dietmar Schwertberger

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Nov 8, 2016, 2:06:43 PM11/8/16
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On 08.11.2016 02:08, DevPlayer wrote:
> And here is a perhaps another "Bounty Page" I just came across.
>
> https://wiki.wxpython.org/TheBounties
"last edited 2008-08-02"?

Regards,

Dietmar

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