Re: SVN:(PJC) [60741] Added MAGOHANY DLL import/export macro.
Vadim Zeitlin
> Revision: 60741
> http://svn.wxwidgets.org/viewvc/wx?view=rev&rev=60741
> Author: PJC
> Date: 2009-05-25 08:49:19 -0700 (Mon, 25 May 2009)
>
> Log Message:
> -----------
> Added MAGOHANY DLL import/export macro.
> Added additional (currently empty) source files for art, panel, and page.
> Beginning to code the bar and its events.
>
> Modified Paths:
> --------------
> wxWidgets/branches/SOC2009_RIBBON/Makefile.in
Hi,
I was a bit surprised to see reference to Mahogany (which is a
wxWidgets-based MUA I'm working on since 12 years or so) in connection with
ribbons but apparently it's just a name conflict and the use of Mahogany
here has nothing to do with it.
Now maybe I'm not being objective because I don't want this conflict to
arise in the first place but it seems to me that "mahogany" is a poor name
for any new library because it's absolutely non-descriptive. The existing
libraries have very clear names: core, net, html, media, ... and this one
just doesn't seem to fit. So would it be possible to change this name?
Also, I don't know if this code is going to depend on or use or be used by
wxAUI but in the case it could, maybe it would make sense to just put it in
the existing aui library instead of creating a new one.
Thanks,
VZ
Peter Cawley
> I was a bit surprised to see reference to Mahogany (which is a
> wxWidgets-based MUA I'm working on since 12 years or so) in connection with
> ribbons but apparently it's just a name conflict and the use of Mahogany
> here has nothing to do with it.
I was not previously aware of the Mahogany mail client's existence, or
that it shared core developers with wx.
> Now maybe I'm not being objective because I don't want this conflict to
> arise in the first place but it seems to me that "mahogany" is a poor name
> for any new library because it's absolutely non-descriptive. The existing
> libraries have very clear names: core, net, html, media, ... and this one
> just doesn't seem to fit. So would it be possible to change this name?
I'm open to name suggestions. It was suggested that going with the
ribbon name would invite criticism from Microsoft, similar to the
wxWindows name did, which I consider a wise suggestion. Finding a good
alternate name is a challenge though. wxStripBar (or similar) sounds
too like a stripper bar, wxAdvancedToolbar can invite confusion with
wxAuiToolbar. Ideally, the name should be suitable as a prefix for
multiple widgets (e.g. If we went with wxRibbonXYZ, then
wxRibbonGallery would work as a name for gallery control for widgets,
however if the base component was called wxAdvancedToolbar, then
wxAdvancedToolbarGallery is fairly complex and compounded, and
wxAdvancedGallery is too generic).
My thinking was that "ribbon" meant nothing as a UI term before
Microsoft started using it, so why not pick a similarly "generic" word
and adopt it as the wx name for it. A dictionary would give as much
connection between ribbon and UI as it would between mahogany and UI
(and between mahogany and email, for that matter).
As a (weak) counterpoint to your "clear names" argument, the "stc"
library name means nothing at first glance, and only after looking
into it does it reveal itself to be text-control related.
Again to re-iterate, I'm more to happy to rename everything, but
choosing and agreeing on such a name is non-trivial.
> Also, I don't know if this code is going to depend on or use or be used by
> wxAUI but in the case it could, maybe it would make sense to just put it in
> the existing aui library instead of creating a new one.
The plan is to be separate from AUI. There is already an existing
wxAuiToolbar class for a difference purpose, so inclusion within the
AUI library could cause naming confusion there also.
-- PJC
Julian Smart
thought about it...
Anyway I do agree it would be nice to have a descriptive name. Other
ideas: wxAdvancedBar (rather bland), wxCommandBar and Peter's suggestion
wxPanelBar.
Regards,
Julian
Bryan Petty
> I'm open to name suggestions. It was suggested that going with the
> ribbon name would invite criticism from Microsoft, similar to the
> wxWindows name did, which I consider a wise suggestion.
The only kind of criticism Microsoft could bring upon wxWidgets would
be trademark infringement (like the one wxWidgets/wxWindows already
dealt with from Microsoft once before), or patent licensing issues,
which I believe we already covered before GSoC ribbon proposals were
considered. Microsoft doesn't have any kind of trademark on "Ribbon"
though. In fact, as far as wxWidgets usage is concerned, I'm sure they
would invite the use of the term "ribbon" supporting their term for
the component. Microsoft doesn't sell the Ribbon bar as a product,
it's just another control just like a list control, notebook, radio
button, etc. I don't really see anything wrong with using wxRibbon*.
>> Also, I don't know if this code is going to depend on or use or be used by
>> wxAUI but in the case it could, maybe it would make sense to just put it in
>> the existing aui library instead of creating a new one.
>
> The plan is to be separate from AUI. There is already an existing
> wxAuiToolbar class for a difference purpose, so inclusion within the
> AUI library could cause naming confusion there also.
I agree with Peter here. This could be very confusing, and I don't
really see how a ribbon bar could (or would want to) make use of
wxAUI, or vice versa anyway. They are both solutions to two fairly
different, separate issues.
Regards,
Bryan Petty
Peter Cawley
>
> On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Peter Cawley <cor...@corsix.org> wrote:
>> I'm open to name suggestions. It was suggested that going with the
>> ribbon name would invite criticism from Microsoft, similar to the
>> wxWindows name did, which I consider a wise suggestion.
>
> The only kind of criticism Microsoft could bring upon wxWidgets would
> be trademark infringement (like the one wxWidgets/wxWindows already
> dealt with from Microsoft once before), or patent licensing issues,
> which I believe we already covered before GSoC ribbon proposals were
> considered. Microsoft doesn't have any kind of trademark on "Ribbon"
> though. In fact, as far as wxWidgets usage is concerned, I'm sure they
> would invite the use of the term "ribbon" supporting their term for
> the component. Microsoft doesn't sell the Ribbon bar as a product,
> it's just another control just like a list control, notebook, radio
> button, etc. I don't really see anything wrong with using wxRibbon*.
>
wxRibbon prefix, and replace all instances of Mahogany with Ribbon,
with everything being part of the "ribbon" library (rather than
combined into "aui"). Unless anyone has any objections, I'll do so
tomorrow.
Peter
Vadim Zeitlin
PC> In which case, I think the best course of action is to go with the
PC> wxRibbon prefix, and replace all instances of Mahogany with Ribbon,
PC> with everything being part of the "ribbon" library (rather than
PC> combined into "aui"). Unless anyone has any objections, I'll do so
PC> tomorrow.
I definitely don't have any objections to this as I had assumed that it
would be called like this since the very beginning. But FWIW I like
wxPanelBar too and it might be an advantage to use not too Microsoft-
specific term. Still, for most people wxRibbon will probably be more clear.
Thanks,
VZ
P.S. I didn't want to imply that you somehow had to know about Mahogany
beforehand (unfortunately it's not that popular), I was just surprised
to see its name and had a fleeting thought that there might be some
relationship
Julian Smart
> On Mon, 25 May 2009 21:23:11 +0100 Peter Cawley <cor...@corsix.org> wrote:
>
> PC> In which case, I think the best course of action is to go with the
> PC> wxRibbon prefix, and replace all instances of Mahogany with Ribbon,
> PC> with everything being part of the "ribbon" library (rather than
> PC> combined into "aui"). Unless anyone has any objections, I'll do so
> PC> tomorrow.
>
> I definitely don't have any objections to this as I had assumed that it
> would be called like this since the very beginning. But FWIW I like
> wxPanelBar too and it might be an advantage to use not too Microsoft-
> specific term. Still, for most people wxRibbon will probably be more clear.
>
it exposes us slightly more. For example, we could be asked by Microsoft
to change the name on the grounds that it doesn't follow their official
ribbon API or look and feel, and the name could cause confusion.
The other perhaps more pertinent reason for choosing a different name is
that on some platforms, the control should adapt to a quite different,
non-ribbon appearance - in particular on Mac, it should probably show as
a foldbar (if we're still going with that idea as per earlier
discussions). The name wxPanelBar fits both modes of operation.
Regards,
Julian
Peter Cawley
> I still have a slight nagging feeling about using the ribbon name, that
> it exposes us slightly more. For example, we could be asked by Microsoft
> to change the name on the grounds that it doesn't follow their official
> ribbon API or look and feel, and the name could cause confusion.
As far as I'm aware, Microsoft have not got (or applied for) a
trademark on the word "ribbon" in a computing sense, and their
publicly available documentation refers to it as the "Office UI" (e.g.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-gb/office/aa973809.aspx). Even if you
believe that they have valid IP claims in the area, they appear not to
take issue with component vendors, only application vendors.
Furthermore, their Office UI licensing program includes no code, and
hence no official API.
Ignoring for a moment that it is questionable if "look and feel" can
be protected in the first place
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_v._Borland), if the implementation
is close to Microsoft's "look and feel", then they cannot take issue
with it not following their guidelines. If the implementation is not
close to Microsoft's "look and feel" (as in the foldbar-style), then
their feelings are irrelevant.
> The other perhaps more pertinent reason for choosing a different name is
> that on some platforms, the control should adapt to a quite different,
> non-ribbon appearance - in particular on Mac, it should probably show as
> a foldbar (if we're still going with that idea as per earlier
> discussions). The name wxPanelBar fits both modes of operation.
Indeed, I'm still planning on that. Taking the Wikipedia definition of
ribbon ("a ribbon is a form of toolbar, combined with a tab bar"), I
believe a foldbar can fall into that definition. Taking
http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/6794/powerpointbigel7.jpg as an
example, there is still a tab bar (with icons instead of labels), with
panel within it, and tools within them.
Peter
Julian Smart
Thanks for the further reasoning. If everyone else is happy with using
the term ribbon, then let's go for it. We can always do a global
replacement later if necessary.
Best regards,
Julian
Julian Smart, Anthemion Software Ltd.
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