#19352: Modernize wxMSW with WinUI

[wxTrac]

#19352: Modernize wxMSW with WinUI
-------------------------+--------------------
Reporter: TrylzEngine | Owner:
Type: enhancement | Status: new
Priority: normal | Milestone:
Component: wxMSW | Version: 3.0.5
Keywords: | Blocked By:
Blocking: | Patch: 0
-------------------------+--------------------
Hello,

It would be wonderful to add WinUI support or replace the old Win32 by it.
From the documentation they says it can be done on a seamless way:

https://microsoft.github.io/microsoft-ui-xaml/about.html
See "'''Path for desktop (Win32) apps'''"

I am voluntary to implement it if I can get help from a WxWidgets
developer.

Thanks a lot!

--
Ticket URL: <https://trac.wxwidgets.org/ticket/19352>

[wxTrac]

#19352: Modernize wxMSW with WinUI

--------------------------+-------------------

Reporter: TrylzEngine | Owner:
Type: enhancement | Status: new
Priority: normal | Milestone:
Component: wxMSW | Version: 3.0.5

Resolution: | Keywords:

Blocked By: | Blocking:
Patch: 0 |

--------------------------+-------------------
Changes (by pb101):

* cc: pbfordev@… (added)


Comment:

(I am not a developer)

Out of curiosity: Do you have an experience with WinUI development. I do
not, but from what I read it seems that it is quite buggy, limited, and
slow. I understand it is very new but still...

I took a look at the API some time back but I have no idea how to
implement wxWidgets' paint event based drawing with WinUI immediate
graphics mode? But hopefully I am missing something. Does it already make
easy to use multiple top level windows? I assume WinUI3 application does
not have to use XAML and all controls can be simply generated by code at
runtime?

Considering Microsoft's recent history with new GUI APIs, one would be
cautious to jump at yet another soon-to-be-abandoned ship.

By the way, are you aware of any reasonably feature-rich applications
using WinUI3 I could try?

--
Ticket URL: <https://trac.wxwidgets.org/ticket/19352#comment:1>

[wxTrac]

#19352: Modernize wxMSW with WinUI

--------------------------+-------------------

Reporter: TrylzEngine | Owner:
Type: enhancement | Status: new
Priority: normal | Milestone:
Component: wxMSW | Version: 3.0.5

Resolution: | Keywords:

Blocked By: | Blocking:
Patch: 0 |

--------------------------+-------------------
Changes (by TrylzEngine):

* cc: trylzengine@… (added)


Comment:

Just to give your our context. We are working on an upgrade of our
[https://www.nebularender.com/ Windows software].
We use WxWidgets for our GUI. Problem is our users feels that the Win32 UI
look is too old.

So to improve that we have three solutions:
- Replace WxWidgets by a library that uses the new Windows Controls(like
WinUI)
- Try WxQT, but it seems it is still experimental. And the QT license is
not very clear...
- My favorite -> Work on the WxWidgets WinUI port

--
Ticket URL: <https://trac.wxwidgets.org/ticket/19352#comment:2>

[wxTrac]

#19352: Modernize wxMSW with WinUI

--------------------------+-------------------

Reporter: TrylzEngine | Owner:
Type: enhancement | Status: new
Priority: normal | Milestone:
Component: wxMSW | Version: 3.0.5

Resolution: | Keywords:

Blocked By: | Blocking:
Patch: 0 |

--------------------------+-------------------
Changes (by TrylzEngine):

* cc: trylzengine@… (removed)


Comment:

I never used WinUI before. From what I read
[https://www.thomasclaudiushuber.com/2021/02/05/what-is-actually-the-
universal-windows-platform-and-what-is-winui-msix-and-project-reunion/
here] it seems to be the UI framework used by UWP itself.
So I think it can be trusted. My guess is that C++ applications developed
with UWP uses WinUI.
But yes it wont be nice to start working on a new port and see Microsoft
abandon the framework.

--
Ticket URL: <https://trac.wxwidgets.org/ticket/19352#comment:3>

[wxTrac]

#19352: Modernize wxMSW with WinUI

--------------------------+-------------------

Reporter: TrylzEngine | Owner:
Type: enhancement | Status: new
Priority: normal | Milestone:
Component: wxMSW | Version: 3.0.5

Resolution: | Keywords:

Blocked By: | Blocking:
Patch: 0 |

--------------------------+-------------------
Changes (by pb101):

* cc: pbfordev@… (removed)


Comment:

Replying to [comment:3 TrylzEngine]:

> I never used WinUI before. From what I read
[https://www.thomasclaudiushuber.com/2021/02/05/what-is-actually-the-
universal-windows-platform-and-what-is-winui-msix-and-project-reunion/
here] it seems to be the UI framework used by UWP itself.

I do not think this is correct, it may be the other way around, i.e.,
WinUI using (also) UWP, see the scheme at https://docs.microsoft.com/en-
us/windows/apps/winui/winui3/

TBH, I am also not aware of any UWP application with rich UI (think MS
Office or MSVS) but that may be just one of my many shortcomings. OTOH, I
see Electron-based apps as crippled (e.g., compare UI features of Visual
Studio and Visual Studio Code) but it apparently is good enough for many.

Regarding my concerns I listed in my first post (not even asking about
mingw support for WinUI), maybe I am just overly pessimistic.

Good luck anyway.

--
Ticket URL: <https://trac.wxwidgets.org/ticket/19352#comment:4>

[wxTrac]

#19352: Modernize wxMSW with WinUI

--------------------------+-------------------

Reporter: TrylzEngine | Owner:
Type: enhancement | Status: new
Priority: normal | Milestone:
Component: wxMSW | Version: 3.0.5

Resolution: | Keywords:

Blocked By: | Blocking:
Patch: 0 |

--------------------------+-------------------
Changes (by TrylzEngine):

* cc: trylzengine@… (added)


Comment:

Thanks alot for all these good points! Yes you are right WinUI seems to
use UWP.
Is there a page explaining the WxWidgets loop?(message processing,
drawing, etccc).
I would like to start a WxWinUI platform and see where it goes.

If done(probably not before a year) will it be integrated to the main
WxWidgets?
Is there a developer I can contact when I have questions?

Thank you!

--
Ticket URL: <https://trac.wxwidgets.org/ticket/19352#comment:5>

[wxTrac]

#19352: Modernize wxMSW with WinUI

--------------------------+-------------------

Reporter: TrylzEngine | Owner:
Type: enhancement | Status: new
Priority: normal | Milestone:
Component: wxMSW | Version: 3.0.5

Resolution: | Keywords:

Blocked By: | Blocking:
Patch: 0 |

--------------------------+-------------------
Changes (by pb101):

* cc: pbfordev@… (added)


Comment:

This is the place where your posts can be seen and discussed by wxWidgets
core developers. AFAIK, the "main" one (Vadim) said he is going to be very
busy till the end of the year and even then the focus would be on 3.1.6
and 3.2.0 releases. So you may not get an immediate response.

Disclaimer: I am just a random guy, not a developer or programmer, so my
views may be distorted but as always, here are my 2 cents anyway:

Firstly, I believe that creating a wxWidgets port for a new platform can
be quite challenging task, if nothing else then time-wise.

I assume you are reasonably familiar with wxWidgets library and understand
how it works, i.e., that some controls are wrappers for the native ones
where possible (e.g., wxButton), and some are generic on all platforms,
implemented by wxWidgets adhering to platform standards (e.g., wxGrid).

I would start with learning WinUI 3, for example playing with the
[https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/winui-3-controls-
gallery/9p3jfpwwdzrc?activetab=pivot:overviewtab Controls Gallery] and
reading the API to check what is and is not available.

Once I was reasonably sure it is possible to create a WinUI 3 port[1], I
would start reading http://wxwidgets.org/docs/faq/general/#newport and and
the documents in
[https://github.com/wxWidgets/wxWidgets/tree/master/docs/contributing
WXDIR/docs/contributing].

As you probably know, there are already several ports for Windows, the
default using WinAPI, the one using GTK, and there is also (somewhat
neglected) wxUniversal. I am not sure if wxQt works on Windows or not.
Looking at this ports may be useful to see how it all works under the
hood. I do not think wxWidgets internals are officially documented
somewhere, the documentation is mostly for the application programmers.

[1] The basic controls seem reasonably similar to WinAPI ones and
'''probably''' can be used with wxSizers but as I wrote before, I am not
sure about WinUI 3 supporting such features as multiple top level windows
or how to adapt its retained graphics mode to the paint event based system
wxWidgets uses. I would also make sure all the controls can be created by
code at runtime, just as on all other ports and no (user-written) XAML is
required.

--
Ticket URL: <https://trac.wxwidgets.org/ticket/19352#comment:6>

[wxTrac]

#19352: Modernize wxMSW with WinUI

--------------------------+-----------------

Reporter: TrylzEngine | Owner:
Type: enhancement | Status: new
Priority: normal | Milestone:
Component: wxMSW | Version:

Resolution: | Keywords:

Blocked By: | Blocking:
Patch: 0 |

--------------------------+-----------------
Changes (by TrylzEngine):

* cc: trylzengine@… (removed)
* version: 3.0.5 =>


Comment:

Thank you very much! I wouldn't find better explanations to start.
I am familiar with WxWidgets but just as a user. Core code is almost
unknow for me.

I will give it a try since it can benefit to both our software and
WxWidgets. At least implement the possible features and see where it goes.
If I have questions I will write them here then :).

Is it ok that I start by making a GitHub branch from the repo? Will it be
tracked that I work on the port in case someone else ask about WinUI?

--
Ticket URL: <https://trac.wxwidgets.org/ticket/19352#comment:7>

[wxTrac]

#19352: Modernize wxMSW with WinUI

--------------------------+-----------------

Reporter: TrylzEngine | Owner:
Type: enhancement | Status: new
Priority: normal | Milestone:
Component: wxMSW | Version:

Resolution: | Keywords:

Blocked By: | Blocking:
Patch: 0 |

--------------------------+-----------------

Comment (by oneeyeman):

Hi,
1. Discussing new ports and hw it should be implemented is done better on
wx-dev ML.
Please sign-up for it - the direct link is given at
http://wxwidgets.org/support/mailing-lists/

2. Is it ok that I start by making a GitHub branch from the repo?

It is better to create your own fork and start there.

3. Will it be tracked that I work on the port in case someone else ask
about WinUI?

I don't know what you mean by tracked.
People usually request by the ML I referenced above r file a ticket like
you did.

Now the presumption of "old Win32 UI" makes me curious - do you have a
link to a screensht for the UI elements.
I am also curious - what wxWidgets version you use right now and what
Windows version you are testing it on?
I also presume you will be upgrading to latest 3.1.5 release.

What I would do is to try to update the code partially, make sure you
include the manifest inside your binary and see if people will complain.

I would also consider looking into wxAUI and see if that is something you
software can benefit from...

But that's just me - I don't know anything about WinUI, other than
apparently it supports C/C++, but probably mostly .NET/JAVA.

Thank you.

--
Ticket URL: <https://trac.wxwidgets.org/ticket/19352#comment:8>

[wxTrac]

#19352: Modernize wxMSW with WinUI

--------------------------+-------------------

Reporter: TrylzEngine | Owner:
Type: enhancement | Status: new
Priority: normal | Milestone:
Component: wxMSW | Version: 3.0.5

Resolution: | Keywords:

Blocked By: | Blocking:
Patch: 0 |

--------------------------+-------------------
Changes (by TrylzEngine):

* cc: trylzengine@… (added)
* version: => 3.0.5


Comment:

Hello,

1. I will post there if it is finally necessary to make the port. '''I
realize that we could manually draw custom widgets for the ones our users
"feel" outdated.'''

2. Sounds great thank you :)

3. Marvelous thanks! Simply wanted to avoid the case that multiple people
work on the same port on different forks.

For the "old" look I was talking about, the color dialog is the perfect
example.
Here a Win32 Color Dialog:
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/dlgbox/color-dialog-box

Here a WinUI 3 Color Dialog:
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-
us/windows/winui/api/microsoft.ui.xaml.controls.colorpicker?view=winui-3.0

The WinUI 3 ones looks better. Yes it could be linked to the fact that we
have been seen the same Color Dialog on windows apps for decades. But
still the old feeing is there.

--
Ticket URL: <https://trac.wxwidgets.org/ticket/19352#comment:9>

[wxTrac]

#19352: Modernize wxMSW with WinUI

--------------------------+-------------------

Reporter: TrylzEngine | Owner:
Type: enhancement | Status: new
Priority: normal | Milestone:
Component: wxMSW | Version: 3.0.5

Resolution: | Keywords:

Blocked By: | Blocking:
Patch: 0 |

--------------------------+-------------------
Changes (by pb101):

* cc: pbfordev@… (removed)


Comment:

Replying to [comment:9 TrylzEngine]:

> For the "old" look I was talking about, the color dialog is the perfect
example.

No offense, but IMO it is actually a very bad example.

WinAPI color dialog in the screenshot you referred to is a non-themed
(just check how the buttons look) dialog running on Windows XP, i.e., it
has a Windows 95 look. It does not look like that on a modern Windows
(controls-wise, not layout-wise).

OTOH, what is in the WinUI3 screenshot is not a dialog: It does not have
the caption or buttons. In other words, it is a control (picker), not a
dialog. The "dialog" in the screenshot also lacks the features the WinAPI
one has so you were comparing apples and oranges.

The "old" feeling is just a feeling, in other words it is subjective. It
is all about what is in fashion now, and apparently it is not clean and
functional WinAPI design anymore. Now it is a clunky couple-of-shades-of-
gray one. I guess it will take a couple of years till the pendulum swings
the other way around, just like they perpetually switch between round and
sharp browser tab corners.

Nevertheless, it is clear that Microsoft abandoned WinAPI. While they at
least added high DPI, I think it is pretty clear by now the controls will
not get dark mode support even it if it seems pretty simple to add.

All that said, as I wrote before, among else I would be worried about the
level of Microsoft's commitment to WinUI 3, see their recent history when
it comes to that. It is not like we are seeing developers both large and
small praising the API and switching their applications to Win UI ASAP.

By the way, creating custom controls may not be as simple as it may seem.
It is not only the appearance, one has to worry about proper keyboard and
mouse support, RTL, accessibility... Besides that, WPF-looking controls
are going to look out of place in WinAPI application.

--
Ticket URL: <https://trac.wxwidgets.org/ticket/19352#comment:10>

[wxTrac]

#19352: Modernize wxMSW with WinUI

--------------------------+-------------------

Reporter: TrylzEngine | Owner:
Type: enhancement | Status: new
Priority: normal | Milestone:
Component: wxMSW | Version: 3.0.5

Resolution: | Keywords:

Blocked By: | Blocking:
Patch: 0 |

--------------------------+-------------------
Changes (by TrylzEngine):

* cc: trylzengine@… (removed)


Comment:

1. I completely disagree. Here the same Dialog under 3.1.3, I dont see
that much difference with the Windows 95 look: https://ibb.co/m06Dznj

2. The Winui 3 picker seems to be the direct equivalent to the Win32 one.
As the same way the [https://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qcolordialog.html Qt picker]
would be. I dont see why it is not a valid comparison...


3. Let say we want to have a picker that matches the WinUi 3 one. Couldn't
it be done that way:

- Make a frame with child windows.
- Use wxSpinCtrlDouble for the color number inputs.
- Use a child panel for the color selection area. Then intercept mouse
down events for the selection. For the drawing, intercept its paint event
to draw the color gradient. If the Win Api doesn't expose a way to draw a
color gradient, it could be done natively in Directx 11/12 by manually
writing the HWND.

4. But yes if the WxWidget team is not sure about a WinUI port yet, we
wont start working on a port that we could have to maintain ourselves in
parallel to the WxWidgets releases.


Thank You!

--
Ticket URL: <https://trac.wxwidgets.org/ticket/19352#comment:11>

[wxTrac]

#19352: Modernize wxMSW with WinUI

--------------------------+-------------------

Reporter: TrylzEngine | Owner:
Type: enhancement | Status: new
Priority: normal | Milestone:
Component: wxMSW | Version: 3.0.5

Resolution: | Keywords:

Blocked By: | Blocking:
Patch: 0 |

--------------------------+-------------------
Changes (by pb101):

* cc: pbfordev@… (added)


Comment:

Replying to [comment:11 TrylzEngine]:

> 1. I completely disagree. Here the same Dialog under 3.1.3, I dont see
that much difference with the Windows 95 look: https://ibb.co/m06Dznj

You can disagree with facts, I guess. If you do not believe the dialog is
not themed, check the button shape and font used. It is the standard color
dialog used in Windows applications such as WordPad even on Windows 10.

Replying to [comment:11 TrylzEngine]:

> 2. The Winui 3 picker seems to be the direct equivalent to the Win32
one. As the same way the [https://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qcolordialog.html Qt
picker] would be. I dont see why it is not a valid comparison...

If you cannot tell a difference between a child control
(Microsoft.UI.Xaml.Controls.ColorPicker) and a dialog (wxColourDialog or
QColorDialog, these two look pretty much the same) even when it is clear
from appearance as well as the class name, I do not know what to tell
you...

> 3. Let say we want to have a picker that matches the WinUi 3 one.

That would be a trivial task (BTW, wxDC and wxGC do have gradient drawing
methods), except for the colored slider which would have to be implemented
as a custom control. But that should be simple as well albeit as always,
simple still takes time. But the whole dialog should not take more than a
day, even if one implements ColorPicker's API quite faithfully.

Replying to [comment:11 TrylzEngine]:

> 4. But yes if the WxWidget team is not sure about a WinUI port yet

As I stated before, I am not a developer but I follow the development and
I am not aware of any discussion on this topic. As I wrote before, you may
need to wait a bit for that.

--
Ticket URL: <https://trac.wxwidgets.org/ticket/19352#comment:12>

[wxTrac]

#19352: Modernize wxMSW with WinUI

--------------------------+-------------------

Reporter: TrylzEngine | Owner:
Type: enhancement | Status: new
Priority: normal | Milestone:
Component: wxMSW | Version: 3.0.5

Resolution: | Keywords:

Blocked By: | Blocking:
Patch: 0 |

--------------------------+-------------------
Changes (by TrylzEngine):

* cc: trylzengine@… (added)


Comment:

My point was never to discuss the difference between types of windows, but
rather to compare the look of color pickers from different platforms.
It couldn't be anymore clear than what I wrote.

I will then discuss the port on the dev page.

Thanks for your help!

--
Ticket URL: <https://trac.wxwidgets.org/ticket/19352#comment:13>

[wxTrac]

#19352: Modernize wxMSW with WinUI

--------------------------+-------------------

Reporter: TrylzEngine | Owner:
Type: enhancement | Status: new
Priority: normal | Milestone:
Component: wxMSW | Version: 3.0.5

Resolution: | Keywords:

Blocked By: | Blocking:
Patch: 0 |

--------------------------+-------------------

Comment (by vadz):

Sorry for the late reply, I'm actually not busy at all, quite on the
contrary -- I'm on vacation. I'd be glad to discuss this once I'm back
next week, but I can already say that any work on the wxUWP port would be
very, very welcome (it's even mentioned as one of the things it would be
great to have in [https://trac.wxwidgets.org/wiki/Roadmap our roadmap]).

From what little I know about it, it wouldn't be a trivial task, but it
should be doable and even if you implement "just" the subset of the wx API
that your application needs, it would already be great!

--
Ticket URL: <https://trac.wxwidgets.org/ticket/19352#comment:14>

[wxTrac]

#19352: Modernize wxMSW with WinUI

--------------------------+-------------------

Reporter: TrylzEngine | Owner:
Type: enhancement | Status: new
Priority: normal | Milestone:
Component: wxMSW | Version: 3.0.5

Resolution: | Keywords:

Blocked By: | Blocking:
Patch: 0 |

--------------------------+-------------------
Changes (by TrylzEngine):

* cc: trylzengine@… (removed)


Comment:

Hello Vadz,

Our upcoming release is scheduled in one year. For our UI we want the UWP
widgets look and a timeline widget(for animations).

After discussing here it looks like the more secure way to do so would be
to implement custom widgets with the look of our choice. We will then go
for that solution.

But for future we will definitely move to UWP, so I will start a branch on
the wxUWP platform. It will takes time to implement since i will only work
on on my free time.

From the research i made here is my starting point:
1) See our to generate UWP projects from Cmake. If possible C++17 should
be used instead of the WinRT version?

2) There is mo WinMain with UWP. Entry point is defined by the application
.xaml, .h and .cpp. So a client using wxUWP will have these
automatically. But he will keep them to the minimal app initialization.


3) UWP events are delegate based, instead of using messages. So it should
be easy to map these events to the ones of WxWidgets.

Have great holidays!

--
Ticket URL: <https://trac.wxwidgets.org/ticket/19352#comment:15>

[wxTrac]

#19352: Modernize wxMSW with WinUI

--------------------------+-------------------

Reporter: TrylzEngine | Owner:
Type: enhancement | Status: new
Priority: normal | Milestone:
Component: wxMSW | Version: 3.0.5

Resolution: | Keywords:

Blocked By: | Blocking:
Patch: 0 |

--------------------------+-------------------

Comment (by andyr):

The OP mentions possibly *replacing* the Win32 version of wx, so I just
thought I'd mention that Win32 is still very much alive, see:

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/apps/get-started/?tabs=cpp-win32

"Win32 desktop apps (also sometimes called classic desktop apps) are the
original app type for native Windows applications that require direct
access to Windows and hardware. This makes this the app type of choice for
applications that need the highest level of performance and direct access
to system hardware."

and:

https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2021/06/24/building-a-new-
open-microsoft-store-on-windows-11/

"Starting today, Windows developers can publish any kind of app,
regardless of app framework and packaging technology – such as Win32,
.NET, UWP, Xamarin, Electron, React Native, Java and even Progressive Web
Apps."

--
Ticket URL: <https://trac.wxwidgets.org/ticket/19352#comment:16>

[wxTrac]

#19352: Modernize wxMSW with WinUI

--------------------------+-------------------

Reporter: TrylzEngine | Owner:
Type: enhancement | Status: new
Priority: normal | Milestone:
Component: wxMSW | Version: 3.0.5

Resolution: | Keywords:

Blocked By: | Blocking:
Patch: 0 |

--------------------------+-------------------
Changes (by pb101):

* cc: pbfordev@… (removed)


Comment:

Replying to [comment:16 andyr]:

> I just thought I'd mention that Win32 is still very much alive, see:

Unfortunately, I cannot agree with this. IMO, the definitive proof is that
Microsoft utterly abandoned it is that they did not bother to add support
for Dark Mode in Win32.

There is no doubt that Dark Mode is definitely very popular and demanded
feature. Yet, Microsoft does not care even enough to make the only Win32
application many users still use daily work right: File Explorer, see the
quirks listed on https://trac.wxwidgets.org/ticket/19223#comment:15

Yes, we got high DPI support but when was the last time Microsoft added a
new control to Win32 API? I do not think there was any post Windows XP.
For example, where are controls such Ribbon or BreadCrumbBar, which have
been in common use for a over decade?

But as I wrote before (many times?), I believe that modern Microsoft have
bad record when it comes to UI APIs. They have Win32-based MFC and
WinForms, which AFAIK are as good as dead, and even their preUWP darling,
WPF, seems to be largely ignored. And as I wrote before, I do not see
masses migrating to UWP or now the supposedly latest and greatest for C++
programmers, WinUI 3.

--
Ticket URL: <https://trac.wxwidgets.org/ticket/19352#comment:17>