For all we have and are - Rudyard Kipling

[Nathn]

For all we have and are – Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936)


"For All We Have and Are"


For all we have and are,
For all our children's fate,
Stand up and meet the war.
The Hun is at the gate!
Our world has passed away
In wantonness o'erthrown.
There is nothing left to-day
But steel and fire and stone.

Though all we knew depart,
The old commandments stand:
"In courage keep your heart,
In strength lift up your hand."

Once more we hear the word
That sickened earth of old:
"No law except the sword
Unsheathed and uncontrolled,"
Once more it knits mankind,
Once more the nations go
To meet and break and bind
A crazed and driven foe.

Comfort, content, delight --
The ages' slow-bought gain --
They shrivelled in a night,
Only ourselves remain
To face the naked days
In silent fortitude,
Through perils and dismays
Renewd and re-renewed.

Though all we made depart,
The old commandments stand:
"In patience keep your heart,
In strength lift up your hand."

No easy hopes or lies
Shall bring us to our goal,
But iron sacrifice
Of body, will, and soul.
There is but one task for all --
For each one life to give.
Who stands if freedom fall?
Who dies if England live?

Rudyard Kipling

It could be a leader of England addressing the people of England,
especially the men. He encourages them to serve the country during
these times of great war and violence. He says that we all have to be
brave and fight with our souls.
The poet describes and reports the events at the same time. It’s
simultaneous with the present.
Rudyard Kipling wants the people to fight for their country and
tackle the German soldiers. The English soldiers have to be brave and
they cannot fear death. They have to be prepared to sacrifice their
lives and souls.
This poem is written in a level “without consciousness”. People
weren’t aware of what the Second Great World War would mean and what
impact it would have on the whole world and the citizens.
The Jews were eradicated in a brutal manner, gypsies and people who
suffered mental sickness weren’t accepted and were excluded by the
society.
Women and children had to survive while thousands of soldiers were
faced with death and cruelty.
In this poem, the author does mention that the people are going to
have sacrifice their lives, but he doesn’t say a word about the
injustice that is done to many people. That’s the reason why I
classify this poem in the level “without consciousness”.


my meaning of this poem, Nathalie

[RubenCallens]

Why do you think it's the leader of England addressing the people of
England in this Poem?

[DJ]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gethsemane

1914-18



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




THE Garden called Gethsemane
In Picardy it was,
And there the people came to see
The English soldiers pass.
We used to pass - we used to pass
Or halt, as it might be,
And ship our masks in case of gas
Beyond Gethsemane.

The Garden called Gethsemane,
It held a pretty lass,
But all the time she talked to me
I prayed my cup might pass.
The officer sat on the chair,
The men lay on the grass,
And all the time we halted there
I prayed my cup might pass.

It didn't pass - it didn't pass
It didn't pass from me.
I drank it when we met the gas
Beyond Gethsemane !

> > my meaning of this poem, Nathalie- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[DJ]

I should have added that Kipling, the uncrowned English poet Laureate
at the time, was very pro-war. He was consciously writing recruiting
poems, as were many contemporaries. And he was far from being an
unthinking man, though one might not always agree with his
thoughts...........

His vision of what constituted 'England' might be judged deeply flawed
but as a poet he was as skilled as any since Tennyson.

Contrast his lines with these;

I.
Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
‘Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns!’ he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

II.
‘Forward, the Light Brigade!’
Was there a man dismay’d?
Not tho’ the soldier knew
Some one had blunder’d:
Their’s not to make reply,
Their’s not to reason why,
Their’s but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

III.
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley’d and thunder’d;
Storm’d at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred.

IV.
Flash’d all their sabres bare,
Flash'd as they turn’d in air
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army, while
All the world wonder’d:
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right thro’ the line they broke;
Cossack and Russian
Reel’d from the sabre-stroke
Shatter’d and sunder’d.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six hundred.

V.
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volley’d and thunder’d;
Storm’d at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came thro’ the jaws of Death,
Back from the mouth of Hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred.

VI.
When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wonder’d.
Honour the charge they made!
Honour the Light Brigade,
Noble six hundred!

http://home.att.net/~TennysonPoetry/clb.htm

http://www.nationalcenter.org/ChargeoftheLightBrigade.html

Kipling was, along with others, a part of the propaganda campaign to
persuade the English people that they were engaged in a 'just'
war.....

On 5 Feb, 18:27, RubenCallens <blokneute_...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[Tomskin01]

Im a bit confused...why are you referring to the second world war...
Kipling wrote this in 1914.

[DJ]

I see what you mean...but Kiplings' verse was as important in the
Second War as the it was in the First

[Elsa Franker]

Kipling wrote this poem in 1914 about meeting the war ... etc. Ironically, his only son, John, was killed in 1915 at the Battle of Loos on one of the very first days in action. Did that alter his view of the WWI and its causes? (Sorry, I´m not that very familiar with Kipling´s poetry) Elsa --- On Tue, 24/3/09, DJ <DJD...@googlemail.com> wrote:

[DJ]

In my opinion, no it didnt.

What it did do was cause him immense grief and affect his poetry

On Mar 24, 9:32 pm, Elsa Franker <elsafran...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Kipling wrote this poem in 1914 about meeting the war ... etc. Ironically, his only son, John, was killed in 1915 at the Battle of Loos on one of the very first days in action. Did that alter his view of the WWI and its causes? (Sorry, I´m not that very familiar with Kipling´s poetry)
> Elsa
>

> --- On Tue, 24/3/09, DJ <DJDJ...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Logan Naidoo]

I do not know much about Kipling's poetry. However, I am led to believe that Kipling was a racist. Implicit in his speeches is is his disdain for the Indian culture and he tried to justify

the subjugation of India by the British - a superior group invading a land of the inferior and

civilizing the people inhabiting it.

 

Nathn mentions something about "injustices done to many people." I have taken the quote   out of context but could not one use it to reinforce the assertion that Kipling was indeed a racist?

 

Logan

----- Original Message -----

From: DJ

To: World War One Literature

Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:22 PM

Subject: Re: For all we have and are - Rudyard Kipling

In my opinion, no it didnt.

What it did do was cause him immense grief and affect his poetry

On Mar 24, 9:32 pm, Elsa Franker <elsafran...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Kipling wrote this poem in 1914 about meeting the war .. etc. Ironically, his only son, John, was killed in 1915 at the Battle of Loos on one of the very first days in action. Did that alter his view of the WWI and its causes? (Sorry, I´m not that very familiar with Kipling´s poetry)

[scampo]

As can sometimes happen in threads of this kind, there seems to be an
effort to force the discussion away from the text itself towards some
subjective discussion on context and personality.

Given the context, I cannot find in this poem any offensive expression
of sentiment that could be considered unacceptably racist, xenophobic
or jingoistic. It has elements of patriotic sentiment but Kipling
major theme is of a detestation of war and love of peace.

I like Nathalie's summary but wonder at the idea of "without
consciousness". Of course, not everything can be included in any
single poem but I would say that the poem says a good deal about
injustice.

Steve C

[DJ]

Therre are many elements within Kipling's work.

Whilst imperialism was certainly part of his

intellectual makeup, racism was not.

This may seem like a contradiction, especially when

you are on the receiving end of imperialism, but it

does hold true for Kipling's work.

Within the context of the poem cited, the line "The

Hun is at the gate" certainly implies a sense of

xenophobia.

For Kipling did not write "The Hun is on the

throne".

To put in bluntly, Kipling was as bigoted towards

his own people as he was towards those from other

lands when it came to the imposition of what he

called 'civilization'.

But I cannot see why acknowledging this should be

forcing " the discussion away from the text itself

towards some subjective discussion on context and

person"

I very much doubt whether Owwn (to take a glaringly

obvious example) would have written "Dulce" had he

remained in Shropshire Or would Herbert Adquith

have written "The Volunteer"

Here lies a clerk who half his life had spent
Toiling at ledgers in a city grey,
Thinking that so his days would drift away
With no lance broken in life’s tournament:
Yet ever ’twixt the books and his bright eyes
The gleaming eagles of the legions came,
And horsemen, charging under phantom skies,
Went thundering past beneath the oriflamme.

And now those waiting dreams are satisfied;
From twilight to the halls of dawn he went;
His lance is broken; but he lies content
With that high hour, in which he lived and died.
And falling thus he wants no recompense,
Who found his battle in the last resort;
Nor needs he any hearse to bear him hence,
Who goes to join the men of Agincourt.

Herbert Asquith

In other circumstances?

(In this case the answer is probably "yes")

But to try and insist that "the text" although

important, is all, leaves us a bit adrift when we

come to a poet whose work was constantly evolving.

Not just by their own hand, but through the

mediation of others (I am thinking once again of

Owen but it could apply to Rosenberg, Graves and

even Sassoon.

But let us get back to Kipling. Did he not also

write;

"To-day across our father's graves,
The astonished years reveal
The remnant of that desperate host
Which cleansed our East with steel"
[The Veterans, 1907]

and

"The miracle of our land's speech--so known
And long received, none marvel when 'tis shown!

We have such wealth as Rome at her most pride
Had not or (having) scattered not so wide;
Nor with such arrant prodigality,
Beneath her any pagan's foot let lie...
Lo! Diamond that cost some half their days
To find and t'other half to bring to blaze:
Rubies of every heat, wherethrough we scan
The fiercer and more fiery heart of man"
[The Birthright. c.1921]

Just as he also wrote;

OH, glorious are the guarded heights
Where guardian souls abide—
Self-exiled from our gross delights—
Above, beyond, outside:
An ampler arc their spirit swings—
Commands a juster view—
We have their word for all these things,
No doubt their words are true.

Yet we, the bond slaves of our day,
Whom dirt and danger press—
Co-heirs of insolence, delay,
And leagued unfaithfulness—
Such is our need must seek indeed
And, having found, engage
The men who merely do the work
For which they draw the wage.

From forge and farm and mine and bench,
Deck, altar, outpost lone—
Mill, school, battalion, counter, trench,
Rail, senate, sheepfold, throne—
Creation's cry goes up on high
From age to cheated age:
"Send us the men who do the work
"For which they draw the wage!"
[The Wage Slaves, 1902]

and

"WE'VE FOUGHT with many men acrost the seas,
An' some of 'em was brave an' some was not:
The Paythan an' the Zulu an' Burmese;
But the Fuzzy was the finest o' the lot.
We never got a ha'porth's change of 'im:
'E squatted in the scrub an' 'ocked our 'orses,
'E cut our sentries up at Suakim,
An' 'e played the cat an' banjo with our forces.


.........................

So 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, an' your friends which are no more,
If we 'adn't lost some messmates we would 'elp you to deplore;
But give an' take's the gospel, an' we'll call the bargain fair,
For if you 'ave lost more than us, you crumpled up the square!



'E rushes at the smoke when we let drive,
An', before we know, 'e's 'ackin' at our 'ead;
'E's all 'ot sand an' ginger when alive,
An' 'e's generally shammin' when 'e's dead.
'E's a daisy, 'e's a ducky, 'e's a lamb!
'E's a injia-rubber idiot on the spree,
'E's the on'y thing that doesn't give a damn
For a Regiment o' British Infantree!

So 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, at your 'ome in the Soudan;
You're a pore benighted 'eathen but a first-class fightin' man;
An' 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, with your 'ayrick 'ead of 'air -
You big black boundin' beggar - for you broke a British square!
[1890]

http://www.kipling.org.uk/rg_index.htm

[Logan Naidoo]

DJ

 

I appreciate your perspective on Kipling. Every bit of information certainly helps in forming a picture of the writer, and hence what had  impelled him to address certain issues.

 

Logan  

----- Original Message -----

From: DJ

To: World War One Literature

Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 10:57 AM

Subject: Re: For all we have and are - Rudyard Kipling

[scampo]

Natalie wrote: "my meaning of this poem"; and Logan wrote that Kipling
was a racist. My reply was prompted by that and what is a growing view
these days that the art cannot be separated from the artist. That is
not at all the same as saying that the text stands alone - the New
Critics were wrong on that. But it's a balance, and I felt that
Natalie needed to read much more before she could draw the conclusions
she had; and pretty much the same for Logan.


The reply my post prompted from DJ was, for me, a pleasure to read and
very useful so I am rather glad I managed to prompt such a response. I
do not know Kipling's writing well enough and now I know him a little
better. I do rather admire his skills as a poet. I have in mind, too,
that his poems are not autobiographical devices but written through
the imagined mind of various personae.

[scampo]

Btw - I do wish we could edit these posts! My tired eyes missed a few
errors in my last post. My apologies.

Steve C

[DJ]

Logan, Scampo et al............

There is a very readable account of Kipling's reaction to the War in
Peter Keating's biograpy of him (Ch.7)

It is often overlooked just how "towering" a figure Kipling was for
the poets writing during the war (both 'for' and 'against' it). The
Trench journals are full of parodies on his poems.

Incidentally, his work was also parodied for the 'official' "Veldt
Journal [?]" of the Boer War. I have seen his copies of "The Friend"
and they are full of 'Kiplingesque" And that great poet Tagore had
some interesting comments on Kipling too......

Indeed it is one of the great ironies of 'Kipling' that he was such an
influence on Brecht. And the early [Denver] poems of Damon Runyon also
owe a lot to him.

One of the few judicious contemporary assessments of his work came
from Ralph Fox in the Daily Worker, of all places..

He is, in short, a fascinating writer. One whose complexities never
cease to amaze......as do his deficiencies...


I rather like the "Envoi" he attached to his 'definitive' poems

"If I have given you delight
By aught that I have done,
Let me lie quiet in that night
Which shall be yours anon

And for the little, little, span
The dead are borne in mind,
Seek not to question other than
The books I leave behind"

To me, that is a poet. Especially when he chances his arm on 'little,
little"

> > the imagined mind of various personae.- Hide quoted text -

[Logan Naidoo]

DJ

 

Once again, my appreciation goes to you for your comments on Kipling.

 

Logan

----- Original Message -----

From: DJ

To: World War One Literature

Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 11:29 PM

Subject: Re: For all we have and are - Rudyard Kipling

[scampo]

Seconded - here, here!

[scampo]

Doh - "Hear hear!" How could I do that!? Mornings are a bad time for
an insomniac!

On Mar 29, 9:59 am, scampo <camps...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Seconded - here, here!