Standard kit proposal

[Yu Cao 曹宇]

During the IRSC 2018 panel discussion, we proposed a standard boat kit for the WRSC. 

The idea of having a standard kit is to make it easier for potential teams to get start on robotics sailing, to provide an affordable educational kit for students, and ultimately broaden the participation of WRSC. This ready-to-sail kit would ideally be:

1. Length between 1 and 1.5 metre
2. Can be carry on airplane
3. Large compartment for electronics with pelicase 
4. Bulid in multiplexer and two servos 
5. Wind vane included, IMU not included 
6. Affordable (in between £200 to £400 per kit)

In the future, this standard kit can be used to compete in WRSC Micro sailboat class.  

Currently, we don't have any recommended off-the-shelf product that satisfy our needs yet. Before that: 

1. Teams are encouraged to contact their local radio-sailing community to get start. The contact info of member countries can be found at https://www.radiosailing.org/members 
2. Find a local RC boat supplier and suggest changes on the boat

Please share us you experience in getting your first boat in robotics sailing. We would like to hear the size, price, size of compartment, speed performance, etc. from you. 

 

[Anna Friebe]

We will make an attempt with an undergraduate course, probably using RC Lasers. Any other suggestions are welcome.

During the session the Educational Passages boats were mentioned as suitable with space for electronics, but they are not built for being controlled, and the cost is pretty significant.

http://educationalpassages.org/

To use a design similar to Southampton's for the wind sensor seems reasonable

https://blog.sotonsailrobot.org/articles/bearings-3d-wind-vane/

It may not be possible to get the cost down to these levels, especially if you want to include RC transmitter and receiver that is not mentioned above, and if you want to have a sail winch included.

Best,

Anna

[Sophia M]

As far as I remember, Tony suggested a while ago to get in touch with the manufacturers of the RC laser, to see if they could make the electronics compartment size could be increased - if the compartment had double to triple the size it currently has, the boat would already be significantly more suitable.

Not sure who to contact about this though; I found this forum with no posts in the last 5 years... https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/rclasers

Cheers

Sophia

[Tom Barchyn]

I have a RC laser robot sailboat. A few notes of possible help regarding the use of RC Lasers as robot sailboats:

I use the conventional electronics pod, I have managed to fit all the equipment in the electronics pod but it is certainly limiting. The electronics pod has 2 issues: (i) the hole is small, it is a good design where the lip is above the deck so is more waterproof – but everything has to go in with a precise sequence, (ii) the pod itself is small and shallow.

 

The pod is separate from the interior of the boat, the floor of the pod is ~1 inch above the actual bottom of the boat – I think the idea was if water gets in the interior of the boat it doesn’t get onto the servos and RC receiver. Condensation in the bilge is kept away from the servos also. And maybe it would help the boat from sinking if the main hull was broken.

 

My programme is all about human vs. robot racing, so I have not modified my boat - it is a class-legal RC laser meant to race against other RC lasers with the obvious difference being a computer that controls the servos.

 

But, if you are OK with a few modifications, a potential idea is to take out the floor of the pod, then reassemble with just the deck plate, so when you go in the hatch the full interior of the boat is accessible. I’m not sure if the pod is 1 piece of plastic or if the floor and deck plate are separate – but either way you could cut out the floor easily when it removed from the boat. You will need to reseal everything well when putting it back together. The plate and the main hull are two different types of plastic, needs a special adhesive / sealant and some care. The servos are held up against the bottom of the deck plate with little plastic clips, but when mounted with the pod, there are little blocks of rubber that press the servos against the deck for a better, more secure mounting. You could just through-bolt the servos to the deck plate also and just remove the plastic clips they use.

 

The obvious advantages of the RC laser is it is really durable, already has a good quiver of sails for all sorts of wind, uses cheap commodity servos and RC gear, and is quite simple and portable, would be very easy to take on a plane. I’m not sure of European parts availability, but if you are not concerned with class legality – I bet most of the parts could be 3D printed or made yourself. You can sail the thing full speed into the rocks and it is fine. A disadvantage of the RC laser is it has a small rudder and can get pushed around by the waves, in moments of frustration I have always wondered if a heavier, narrower, more forgiving boat would be better suited for robot development. Maybe a modification to improve control would be to 3D print a deeper rudder (which would move CLR towards stern and also help reduce weather helm with the biggest ‘A’ sail, weather helm is a known issue with RC lasers and the bigger sails)? The vane needs thinking if mounted on the mast – the mast pivots just like a real laser – you need to also record boom angle somehow.

 

Cheers!

Tom

[John]

I am a member of a RC sailing club near Boston and a member of the AMYA. We build and race several of the boats you may, or may not, have considered for the Standard Kit. As Tom has pointed out these boats are designed for match racing. Although the extra weight may not be an issue, reduces speed, the bigger problem is the limited physical space. Any "off the shelf" boat we sail would need to be modified, decks cut, bulkheads moved, electronics compartment added and other modifications. All of these modifications would need to be done by the same person or group so as to be fairly uniform boat to boat. Even if you write a detailed procedure there would be differences.

I am curious as to why you are not considering the MaxiMOOP. Maybe you have already stated that and I missed it. It was designed specifically for this purpose. Although the MaxiMOOP is offered as just a hull, sails and accessories could be added to make the Standard Kit.

If fabrication of the hulls is an issue have you thought of having the MaxiMOOP 3D printed? There is a very good Facebook page "3D printed radiosailyachts" they are printing full size, 1 piece, hulls of equal size. You could post the question there asking if someone could print a MaxiMOOP or if they could design a boat for the kit.

That's my 2 cents
Thanks

John

[Colin Sauze]

The MaxiMOOP is definitely a great platform for a robotic boat as it has
much more space than most RC hulls do and is capable of dealing with
much worse weather. The MaxiMOOP got mentioned at WRSC but people didn't
seem to like the idea of building their own hulls. If somebody is able
to supply pre-built hulls then that might solve the problem.

I'm not very convinced by the idea of 3D printing hulls. The 3d printed
hulls i've seen have been quite thick, heavy and took days to print.
Obviously it will depend on what 3D printer you've got and the latest
generation are probably a bit faster and able to make thinner layers.
Looking at the 3D printed radiosailyachts group there are some comments
about the hulls being very fragile too. A MaxiMOOP is also going to use
considerably more material than an IOM hull too as the keel is integral
to a maximoop, the hull is a lot wider and a bit longer. Also remember
that once you've built the hull you also need to fill the keel with
lead, build the mast, sails, rudder etc.

Where I think 3D printing might make more sense is to print out a mould
for somebody who wanted to then produce several fibre glass MaxiMOOP hulls.

Colin.

--
Dr. Colin Sauze
Research Software Engineer
Super Computing Wales Project
Room 2.16, Physical Sciences Building
Aberystwyth University,
Penglais, Aberystwyth
Ceredigion, UK, SY23 3DB

Tel: +44 (0)1970 622774
Webpage: http://users.aber.ac.uk/cos



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University of the Year for Teaching Quality - The Times & The Sunday Times 2018.

[John]

Colin

All valid observations and I have seen those comments as well but I find it interesting that a 3D printed hull is thick, heavy and fragile. Those three things don't seem to go together, perhaps the fragile comes in from how the layers are put together. I have seen Footy hulls, which you can crush by squeezing it to hard, but I've never seen, or printed a larger one. I do know someone who is connected with another person who does print larger hulls. I'll ask him if printing a MaxiMoop is feasible.

Thanks 

John 

[Yu Cao 曹宇]

Thanks all for comments.

Colin:

Where can we find the lines plan of MaxiMOOP? There are few universities I know that are interested in build some of those.

John:

There is a PhD student in our research group interested in 3D printed ship model for test.  HIs strategy in printing large hull is similar to the actual shipping building -- small parts is first printed and assembled as a whole.  

Tom:

RC sail robots are the best thing to get started with at this moment. We will encourage teams who are doing robotics sailing to contact their local RC sailing commun

Anna: 

Do you have any material on the basic of robotics sailing. I heard you mentioned about the potential undergrad level course on robotics sailing in Aland. We are planning to have a winter school course at China this year. It would be great if those material can be used to taught the newcomer some basics of robotics sailing. 

在 2018年9月10日星期一 UTC+1下午1:20:56，John写道：

[Colin Sauze]

On 20/09/18 11:50, Yu Cao 曹宇 wrote:
> Thanks all for comments.
>
> Colin:
> Where can we find the lines plan of MaxiMOOP? There are few
> universities I know that are interested in build some of those.

Its on the sailbot site (https://www.sailbot.org/maximoop/) at
https://www.sailbot.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/maximoopv3-2.igs_.zip

Also relating to this discussion, I have some pages on the Microtransat
wiki (https://sourceforge.net/p/microtransat/wiki/Home/) about how to
build a boat but there isn't much information on there. It would be
great to get some other contributions to this.

I'm not sure that sourceforge is the best place to host this (it might
have been when it was setup 10 years ago). I'm happy to move this
somewhere else.

Colin.

[Nancy Ouyang]

Hi! all,

I'm a random lurker on this group (also from Boston, hi!). I've yet to actually do robotic sailing, bu t I've researched online about it because I like both robotics and more recently sailing.

Most of the ones I saw have been mentioned here... there is also

• one Pilothouse, and introduction here.
• and I see some files, from Southhampton where IRSC was held previously, so I assume people on this mailing list know,
•  http://www.sotonsailrobot.org/
• https://github.com/Maritime-Robotics-Student-Society

And the aforementioned MaxMOOP is affiliated with the (extremely confusingly also acronymed) IRSC  ( with competition instead of conference) I think.

Hopefully I'll sail a robotic sailboat next year, just for fun -- wasn't able to convince anyone to fund an entire PhD around motion planning for robotic sailing, haha.

It was super exciting to see this thread come up in my inbox, and to read the responses. I don't know any in person who sails robotic sailboats, so it all seemed rather remote; this thread changed it.

Sincerely,

--Nancy

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[John]

Hi Nancy

I too live just outside of Boston, have been looking into Robotic sailing for a couple of years and I'm currently working on a control system, combination Raspberry Pi and a Arduino. I sail and race radio control model yachts in Needham most Sunday's you should join us sometime. I'm not sure if you've seen this site. https://www.sailbot.org/ The Sailbot competition was last June in Worcester, it will be held there again next June. Very interesting I went this year.

John

[Colin Sauze]

Just to try and clear up some confusion here, Sailbot is also known as the International Robotic Sailing Regatta/Competition.  I did request that its organisers use IRSR (or just Sailbot) where possible to avoid confusion with the International Robotic Sailing Conference. But competition still seems to be slipping through in places.

Colin.

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Dr. Colin Sauze
Research Software Engineer
Super Computing Wales Project
Room 2.16, Physical Sciences Building
Aberystwyth University,
Penglais, Aberystwyth
Ceredigion, UK, SY23 3DB

Tel: +44 (0)1970 622774
Webpage: http://users.aber.ac.uk/cos

[John]

Of course you are correct Colin and I should have used the correct term, but that's what they've been calling it. I also had that confusion when I went to check it out last summer. Professor Stafford explained that individuals, like myself, and academic teams, college or high school, can enter the IRSC but only the academic teams can win the Sailbot competition. So even if an individual wins the overall competition they can not get the Sailbot award, the school team with the best results between school teams does. Is that correct?

Thanks

John

On Saturday, September 1, 2018 at 6:19:01 AM UTC-4, Yu Cao 曹宇 wrote:

[Yu Cao 曹宇]

Thanks Colin!

Thomas did a similar thing at https://robotic-sailing-intro.readthedocs.io under the umbrella of WRSC organisation on GitHub.

The rendering is okay and feel a bit more modern-ish. Perhaps we can merge it with information from sourceforge. 

For the MaxiMOOP: It says 'There is no royalties for using the design', but I haven't found a license for the igs file. Would you mind if I put it on GitHub with an MIT or GPL license?

Best regards,

Yu

在 2018年9月20日星期四 UTC+1下午12:05:57，Colin Sauze写道：

[Colin Sauze]

On 20/09/18 22:54, Yu Cao 曹宇 wrote:

Thanks Colin!

Thomas did a similar thing at https://robotic-sailing-intro.readthedocs.io under the umbrella of WRSC organisation on GitHub.

The rendering is okay and feel a bit more modern-ish. Perhaps we can merge it with information from sourceforge. 

For the MaxiMOOP: It says 'There is no royalties for using the design', but I haven't found a license for the igs file. Would you mind if I put it on GitHub with an MIT or GPL license?

Yu,

Its not my IP to give permission for that. It was designed by Paul Miller when he was at the US Naval Academy. My understanding is that anything produced by a US government employee automatically goes into the public domain. I think this allows you to relicense under an open source license, but i'm not a lawyer!

Colin.

Best regards,

Yu

在 2018年9月20日星期四 UTC+1下午12:05:57，Colin Sauze写道：

On 20/09/18 11:50, Yu Cao 曹宇 wrote:
> Thanks all for comments.
>
> Colin:
> Where can we find the lines plan of MaxiMOOP? There are few
> universities I know that are interested in build some of those.
Its on the sailbot site (https://www.sailbot.org/maximoop/) at
https://www.sailbot.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/maximoopv3-2.igs_.zip

Also relating to this discussion, I have some pages on the Microtransat
wiki (https://sourceforge.net/p/microtransat/wiki/Home/) about how to
build a boat but there isn't much information on there. It would be
great to get some other contributions to this.

I'm not sure that sourceforge is the best place to host this (it might
have been when it was setup 10 years ago). I'm happy to move this
somewhere else.

Colin.



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Prifysgol Aberystwyth www.aber.ac.uk
Prifysgol y Flwyddyn ar gyfer Ansawdd Dysgu - The Times & The Sunday Times 2018.

Aberystwyth University www.aber.ac.uk
University of the Year for Teaching Quality - The Times & The Sunday Times 2018.

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-- 
Dr. Colin Sauze
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Ceredigion, UK, SY23 3DB

Tel: +44 (0)1970 622774
Webpage: http://users.aber.ac.uk/cos

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Prifysgol Aberystwyth www.aber.ac.uk
Prifysgol y Flwyddyn ar gyfer Ansawdd Dysgu - The Times & The Sunday Times 2019.

Aberystwyth University www.aber.ac.uk
University of the Year for Teaching Quality - The Times & The Sunday Times 2019.

[John]

Colin

That's a great idea. I have contacted Paul before, he was very helpful. It is a bit confusing as to how these all connect together, if they do. I'll CC you on my email to him

On a side note I have been following Gortobot, it's a shame but it seems to have lost his way, but good for him he at least has a boat in the water, I'm still down in the basement. It was an interesting control strategy to not have a rudder and go with positioning the sail. When I started sailing model yachts they told me to steer with my sail, which made no sense to me, until I tried it. Amazing how much control it gives you.

Thanks for getting back to me

John    

On Saturday, September 1, 2018 at 6:19:01 AM UTC-4, Yu Cao 曹宇 wrote:

[Anna Friebe]

Hi all,

Sorry for the late response.

Regarding the boat choice - the reason we are going for a RC boat solution rather than the MaxiMOOP is because the work on Åland will be done as part of a project course on the IT program. We don't believe that the mechanical work needed is realistic in this context and time frame. We have decided to go with the RC Laser, and a limit for electronics components to 200-250 euros from a specified component/ price list. 

We are aiming for an undergraduate competition in the second half of May in Mariehamn. The preparations in Åland will be done as a project course, where the learning goals are around agile development methods rather than robotic sailing. I don't have that much material on the basics of robotic sailing (or, rather, too much and too unstructured), but I will try to put something together to share. It may not be in time for a winter school, though. 

Best wishes,

Anna

[Thomas Kluyver]

On Thursday, 20 September 2018 22:54:51 UTC+1, Yu Cao 曹宇 wrote:

Thomas did a similar thing at https://robotic-sailing-intro.readthedocs.io under the umbrella of WRSC organisation on GitHub.

The rendering is okay and feel a bit more modern-ish. Perhaps we can merge it with information from sourceforge.

 Thanks, I hadn't seen Colin's wiki. I'll definitely add a link to that from the 'getting started' guide, and I'm happy to collaborate further on building useful information.

Looking at the wiki, I don't think we've duplicated much effort so far. Colin has collected much more detailed information about e.g. different compass sensors. What I've written is a very basic introduction to the things you need to think about for robotic sailing. For each topic, I've first tried to describe the standard approach, and then mention possible alternatives to consider. It would make sense to point people to the wiki after they have read through the guide and want to start figuring out the details.

Colin:

> My understanding is that anything produced by a US government employee automatically goes into the public domain.

That's also my understanding. Tony, do you have Paul's contact information to check? It would obviously be best to ask him. If it is public domain, then I think there's no need to apply a license to it, just add a note explaining its public domain status.

Best wishes,

Thomas

[Yu Cao 曹宇]

Yep, I had contacted Paul before. He was happy to put an MIT license on this open design.  

在 2019年2月14日星期四 UTC上午11:01:20，Thomas Kluyver写道：

[Thomas Kluyver]

Aha, and I see you already put it on Github as well: https://github.com/WRSC/reference-design

I like Github's 3D preview! I shall add a link and possibly a screenshot to the guide.

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