Synth controller virtual synth software combination alternative
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Greg Jones
Jul 18, 2012, 6:31:30 AM7/18/12
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I'm in the market for a synth and instead of going with a
traditional synth, I'm interested in the possibility of getting a
midi controller keyboard (61 to 76 keys weighted) and going with
virtual synth software on a laptop or possibly even a tablet.
I would think that one could save a lot of money with such a configuration yet still get a powerful system. I think I have seen the M-Audio Keystation 61es http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Keystation61es.html running with an MSRP of $200.
I haven't explored the software.
What would those of you 'in the know' recommend for consideration?
Greg
I would think that one could save a lot of money with such a configuration yet still get a powerful system. I think I have seen the M-Audio Keystation 61es http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Keystation61es.html running with an MSRP of $200.
I haven't explored the software.
What would those of you 'in the know' recommend for consideration?
Greg
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Bruce Kunkle
Jul 18, 2012, 8:49:02 AM7/18/12
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Greg,
I would definitely get a larger keyboard. Our last synth had 88 weighted keys and was great--unless you have to move it.
At our church we use a synth as a controller only (yes, there was some money wasted there) and it connects to a Mac. The sounds are great but sometimes we run out of processor when we play too many notes (did you see Amadeaus?) and things get a little choppy. This is a function of the sound file (patch) and only happens on that one.
If you're looking to save bucks, why not see if you can find a used keyboard on Craig's List and use it as a controller for your setup. Then put the savings into the computer. Just a thought.
Bruce
I would definitely get a larger keyboard. Our last synth had 88 weighted keys and was great--unless you have to move it.
At our church we use a synth as a controller only (yes, there was some money wasted there) and it connects to a Mac. The sounds are great but sometimes we run out of processor when we play too many notes (did you see Amadeaus?) and things get a little choppy. This is a function of the sound file (patch) and only happens on that one.
If you're looking to save bucks, why not see if you can find a used keyboard on Craig's List and use it as a controller for your setup. Then put the savings into the computer. Just a thought.
Bruce
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Frank Scales
Jul 18, 2012, 10:05:55 AM7/18/12
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Depending upon your budget, I would HIGHLY recommend the Yamaha line of MOX Keyboards. There's a 61 and 88 key model (MOX6, MOX8). They are designed to be controllers, have the latest Yamaha MOTIF Sound Engines, and also are very light weight. I can carry my 88 key version under one arm. No regrets on the investment and it integrates seamlessly with Virtual Instruments.
Richard Huntrods
Jul 18, 2012, 11:06:31 AM7/18/12
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Greg,
I went that route back in the early '90s. The advantages are that you have total control over the sound, and can add/remove/swap sound modules without the extra expense of paying for a keyboard over and over.
There are a couple of keyboard styles:
88 note
less than 88 note
weighted keys
non-weighted keys (a.k.a. 'plastic organ-feel keys')
Anyone who grew up playing the piano will greatly appreciate the 88 note weighted keyboard. A piano player can still play the other keyboards, but they really are not the same if you are playing 'piano' patches and piano parts.
On the other hand, I know some who have difficulty playing non-piano parts on a weighted controller.
Still, I think the weighted 88 note controller is most versatile.
As for where, I recommend checking online (ebay etc) or music stores that specialize in consignment or used equipment.
For weighted controllers, in my day the Roland A-80 and the Yamaha KX-88 were the top of the line, and both about equal. Both had fierce defenders. I bought the Yamaha KX-88 used in the early '90s with a robust road case and it's still with me and still works like a champ.
FYI, in the '90s if you watched many jazz piano players on TV concerts, if you looked closely you would notice the 'grand piano' was just a wood shell with a KX-88 inside. Many jazz pianists loved them.
As for sound modules, you should be able to get almost anything good fairly cheap in the used/consignment market. My first 'good' module was the Proteus 1, but years later I bought a used Proteus 1-XR (more sounds) for about 1/10 the price I originally paid. Roland D-110 or U-220, Korg has some great rack units out there as well. It almost doesn't matter what you buy as they all are pretty great these days.
The beauty of this system is you can have multiple sound modules to give more "fat" to the sound. In addition to the Proteus and Roland units, I have an Oberheim Matrix-1000, which is one of the all around best analog bass synth modules. If you haven't heard the sound coming out of an old analog bass synth, you really are missing something, IMO. ;-)
Cheers,
-Richard
I went that route back in the early '90s. The advantages are that you have total control over the sound, and can add/remove/swap sound modules without the extra expense of paying for a keyboard over and over.
There are a couple of keyboard styles:
88 note
less than 88 note
weighted keys
non-weighted keys (a.k.a. 'plastic organ-feel keys')
Anyone who grew up playing the piano will greatly appreciate the 88 note weighted keyboard. A piano player can still play the other keyboards, but they really are not the same if you are playing 'piano' patches and piano parts.
On the other hand, I know some who have difficulty playing non-piano parts on a weighted controller.
Still, I think the weighted 88 note controller is most versatile.
As for where, I recommend checking online (ebay etc) or music stores that specialize in consignment or used equipment.
For weighted controllers, in my day the Roland A-80 and the Yamaha KX-88 were the top of the line, and both about equal. Both had fierce defenders. I bought the Yamaha KX-88 used in the early '90s with a robust road case and it's still with me and still works like a champ.
FYI, in the '90s if you watched many jazz piano players on TV concerts, if you looked closely you would notice the 'grand piano' was just a wood shell with a KX-88 inside. Many jazz pianists loved them.
As for sound modules, you should be able to get almost anything good fairly cheap in the used/consignment market. My first 'good' module was the Proteus 1, but years later I bought a used Proteus 1-XR (more sounds) for about 1/10 the price I originally paid. Roland D-110 or U-220, Korg has some great rack units out there as well. It almost doesn't matter what you buy as they all are pretty great these days.
The beauty of this system is you can have multiple sound modules to give more "fat" to the sound. In addition to the Proteus and Roland units, I have an Oberheim Matrix-1000, which is one of the all around best analog bass synth modules. If you haven't heard the sound coming out of an old analog bass synth, you really are missing something, IMO. ;-)
Cheers,
-Richard
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Dean Thomas
Jul 18, 2012, 11:13:41 AM7/18/12
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Having played around with MIDI things over the years, my only caution starts with that you try to have a trial run before dumping money in your system.
MIDI things can have issues with time lag. I think the technical term is latency. The lag can drive you crazy without your knowledge. It's not like it's seconds or tenths of seconds, but it's enough to make your brain hesitate. Kind of like a pipe organ that does not speak immediately when you press the key but waits enough to make the untrained brain blink and cross its eyes.
Some of the keyboard controllers (without their own synth built in) also have their own timing issues, and the more info you input through them, the greater that lag can be. One note at a time you'll not notice, but double-fisted note clusters and rapid-fire keyboard riffs with lots of notes, you may notice. In my limited experience, the Yamaha products have historically been some of the better products at accomplishing control with minimal lag. And in the newer MIDI equipment, of course, the problems have been addressed and reduced. Newer, faster, higher powered computers have also reduced the lag, but all that data is still coming through a little-bitty wire, a bottleneck.
Again, before you commit the cash, I highly recommend that you put your proposed system through its paces in as real an environment as you possibly can. Be looking/listening for lag and drop out of your digital music.
One man's thoughts and experience.
--
MIDI things can have issues with time lag. I think the technical term is latency. The lag can drive you crazy without your knowledge. It's not like it's seconds or tenths of seconds, but it's enough to make your brain hesitate. Kind of like a pipe organ that does not speak immediately when you press the key but waits enough to make the untrained brain blink and cross its eyes.
Some of the keyboard controllers (without their own synth built in) also have their own timing issues, and the more info you input through them, the greater that lag can be. One note at a time you'll not notice, but double-fisted note clusters and rapid-fire keyboard riffs with lots of notes, you may notice. In my limited experience, the Yamaha products have historically been some of the better products at accomplishing control with minimal lag. And in the newer MIDI equipment, of course, the problems have been addressed and reduced. Newer, faster, higher powered computers have also reduced the lag, but all that data is still coming through a little-bitty wire, a bottleneck.
Again, before you commit the cash, I highly recommend that you put your proposed system through its paces in as real an environment as you possibly can. Be looking/listening for lag and drop out of your digital music.
One man's thoughts and experience.
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Dean Thomas
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Frank Scales
Jul 18, 2012, 11:40:43 AM7/18/12
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Greg is you go with Richard's suggestion, I do have a Roland JV-880 module for sale that I'm no longer utilizing if you're interested.
On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 3:31:30 AM UTC-7, Greg Jones wrote:
On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 3:31:30 AM UTC-7, Greg Jones wrote:
Greg Jones
Jul 18, 2012, 12:05:28 PM7/18/12
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Thanks for the thoughts but I'm not looking for a sound module, but rather virtual synth software. That is where my research is most fuzzy.
Suggestions anyone?
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Suggestions anyone?
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Richard Huntrods
Jul 18, 2012, 12:08:53 PM7/18/12
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Lots of virtual synths for the iPad I've noticed. I have a few of
the free or inexpensive ones, but haven't played much yet. There's
also a pretty good midi in/out device for the iPad (iRigg). Again,
though I have one I haven't played with it much yet.
Cheers,
-Richard
Cheers,
-Richard
Frank Scales
Jul 18, 2012, 12:09:40 PM7/18/12
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Then for bang for the buck....MainStage 2 from Apple. A lot of touring keyboardist use it, it's cheap, and is a great way to pre-arrange your virtual instruments for your set list. You'll need a controller keyboard and a recent Mac.
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Steve Hanson
Jul 18, 2012, 12:51:11 PM7/18/12
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There are a boatload of virtual synths, but none I’ve found particularly great on the iOS devices. I use several on my iPad or iPhone with Line6’s wireless MIDI. It’s awesome to walk in, pull out my keytar, and hand my iPhone to the sound guy as the entire ‘brain’ of my rig.
That said, investigate Reason (and Record). All kinds of virtual synths and doesn’t necessarily require the latest/greatest computer hardware. Very impressive stuff.
In His grip, STEVE
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Richard Huntrods
Jul 18, 2012, 1:07:52 PM7/18/12
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One other thought Greg,
Something to seriously consider might be a good digital piano as the 88 note weighted controller. That gives you one "best of all worlds" scenario - you have a good 88 noted weighted MIDI controller, plus you have a full backup piano (digital) that can just plug into an amp for when you can't/don't want to bring up the full midi stack.
It's possible a good used digital piano could be less money than a good 88 note weighted controller as there are more digital pianos out there than controllers.
Something to seriously consider might be a good digital piano as the 88 note weighted controller. That gives you one "best of all worlds" scenario - you have a good 88 noted weighted MIDI controller, plus you have a full backup piano (digital) that can just plug into an amp for when you can't/don't want to bring up the full midi stack.
It's possible a good used digital piano could be less money than a good 88 note weighted controller as there are more digital pianos out there than controllers.
Cheers,
-Richard
On 7/18/2012 9:05 AM, Greg Jones wrote:
Frank Scales
Jul 18, 2012, 1:28:30 PM7/18/12
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A quick look at Apple's MainStage layout for virtual instruments.
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Gerald Montagna
Jul 18, 2012, 1:09:34 PM7/18/12
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This is a very practical and informative thread, one of the best I can remember.
I know nothing about virtual synth software, but have lots of experience with dumb keyboard controllers. The crucial issue, as one person pointed out, is that you will want the weighted keys for the piano, but they are a nuisance and obstacle for playing every other sound. I would buy a piano with weighted keys for your piano sound, and play everything else from a dumb controller with unweighted keys. You can pick good ones up cheap in the used market. I have a whole collection of them, all different sizes, each serving a different function.
It is crucial that your dumb controller (or any MIDI keyboard) must have easily accessed pre-sets. All those wonderful sounds are of no practical value to you if you can't access them during live performance with one push of a button.
True, there are MIDI controller pedals, and very complicated slide controllers. But that's more to carry, and you can't count on the sysex instructions to get through. SYSEX can be a nightmare, and the techies at the manufacturers of the controllers are useless for that kind of advice. I've generally found dumb keyboard controllers to be easier to link to the sound device than are foot pedal controllers or slide controllers.
Typical setup is a multi-layer keyboard stand, like the one by Ultimate that everybody uses -- so easy to pack and carry, and yet holds up to three keyboards and is variable as far as the height of each one. Put your weighted keyboard piano on the bottom one, and put the dumb MIDI controller on the top, for your organs, brass, strings, sound effects, etc.
GERALD M.
Greg Jones
Jul 19, 2012, 1:33:04 PM7/19/12
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Wow only $30? I love the price. Will i love the sounds? How is the sound quality?
What about latency issues?
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What about latency issues?
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Frank Scales <frankli...@gmail.com> wrote:
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Frank Scales
Jul 19, 2012, 1:58:16 PM7/19/12
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Very very little latency. You be the judge on the sounds. Here's a link of a few sounds I just played for you, basic ones that come stock.
http://soundcloud.com/frankb3/mainstage-demo-frank-scales
http://soundcloud.com/frankb3/mainstage-demo-frank-scales
Greg Jones
Jul 20, 2012, 6:33:44 AM7/20/12
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I just bought Main Stage. I'm really digging the sounds but not
seeing a lot of patches. My system is currently downloading more
from the Jam Pack. Maybe they are there?
I'm experiencing no latency and can see myself pulling the trigger on getting a nice controller as long as the software is stable. I have heard some complaints about the software's stability but so far all I have seen was one brief hour glass lag when changing menus. I would hope that would never happen during a gig though. I wasn't in perform mode so maybe it wouldn't.
Controllers: The Mox Frank suggested looked nice but I want to keep my spending below $500 if possible for a controller. I'm eyeing the M-audio stuff at http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?ID=USBkeyboardcontrollers&do=products.family
I am specifically looking at the 88ES: http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Keystation88es.html
I know people have stated that they prefer weighted keys for piano playing. The 88ES is semi-weighted. I don't think I'll have an issue with semi-weighted for playing piano but I'll go to a music store and play one for a while before making the purchase.
Greg
I'm experiencing no latency and can see myself pulling the trigger on getting a nice controller as long as the software is stable. I have heard some complaints about the software's stability but so far all I have seen was one brief hour glass lag when changing menus. I would hope that would never happen during a gig though. I wasn't in perform mode so maybe it wouldn't.
Controllers: The Mox Frank suggested looked nice but I want to keep my spending below $500 if possible for a controller. I'm eyeing the M-audio stuff at http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?ID=USBkeyboardcontrollers&do=products.family
I am specifically looking at the 88ES: http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Keystation88es.html
I know people have stated that they prefer weighted keys for piano playing. The 88ES is semi-weighted. I don't think I'll have an issue with semi-weighted for playing piano but I'll go to a music store and play one for a while before making the purchase.
Greg
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Greg Jones
Jul 20, 2012, 6:36:45 AM7/20/12
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Are there any reputable/respectable windows software options for
going virtual synth?
I have DAW software that can do VSTi (virtual instruments)...
I have DAW software that can do VSTi (virtual instruments)...
Greg
On 7/19/2012 1:58 PM, Frank Scales
wrote:
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