Modern China

[David Nurenberg]

Given that we have had a chance to see plenty of modern Japan, I
thought that leaving off our study of China with the Cultural
Revolution wasn't quite balanced...so tonight, here is an excerpt from
Colin Thubron's SHADOW OF THE SILK ROAD, whose author (while Western)
travels through Eastern and Central Asia, spending his time with
ordinary people.

The chapter I'm giving you tonight, THE CAPITAL, is a snapshot of
China today (well, 2008). Please read it and then write two (2) blog
entries of reaction. Ideas could include:

- comparing & contrasting China in this excerpt to the China we saw in
To Live and/or Balzac
- comparing & contrasting China in this excerpt to the stories/images
of Japan we've seen
- anything else that interests you

Go for it!

- Mr. N.

For more info on this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Silk-Road-Colin-Thubron/dp/0061231770/ref=tmm_pap_title_0

[Kyle Calabria]

One thing I found interesting was the immensity of the generation gap,
between those who had experienced the Cultural Revolution and those
who had not. The new generation that lived in the cities did not know
the suffering their parents had. They were thrust into a world where
technological and economical advancement were the main themes, where
as there parents lived in a time of communism. The older generation
seems to almost freeze in time watching the younger generation
completely change the lifestyle of the country. They sit in almost
shock and awe, because it is so different. The new culture seems
almost magical and plentiful compared to the old. Another thing I
found interesting was that you could almost go through time as you
walked from the city center (the present) all the way to the suburbs
(the past). Generation gaps will always occur, because it is a natural
effect of an advancing world. However the immensity of the Chinese
generation gap, is completely a cause of the end of the Cultural
Revolution. The end of this lead an explosion of Western ways and new
technology that lead the old ways in the dust.

> For more info on this book:http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Silk-Road-Colin-Thubron/dp/0061231770/re...

[Kyle Calabria]

Another thing I found very interesting about the article, was that the
post Cultural Revolution generation mocks the old ways. They sing Mao
hymns before photos are being taken, the stores sell almost mocking
memorabilia of the revolution, and people think it was almost a joke.
I wonder if this causes conflict between the pre and post revolution
generations, because under the revolution many people experienced
great tragedies. Also a culture once so based off family, order, and
respect, seems to have lost its old values.

On Jan 14, 6:52 am, David Nurenberg <misternurenb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> For more info on this book:http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Silk-Road-Colin-Thubron/dp/0061231770/re...

[Dixie Morrison]

Sadly, this trend can be seen in younger generations throughout the
world. In Japan, for example, Hiroshima Day is remembered with great
ceremony in Hiroshima, but it has also turned into a "funfair" that
Generations X and Y can enjoy. In fact, many older Japanese are so
upset by this irreverence on Hiroshima Day that they stay at home when
the commemoration date comes. In America, Cold War rigidity and "free
love" are equally parodied, even though they were serious things for
our parents and grandparents. Since the Cultural Revolution was so all-
encompassing and traumatic, the inevitable casualness of the younger
generation towards the travails of the older just causes more severe
generational conflict.

[Dixie Morrison]

While reading, it became very clear to me that China is still trying
to find its footing after having been knocked off balance by Mao. They
were once swung all the way to the left (no political implication
meant); now they have swung too far to the right. They have yet to
find a happier medium. The interviews given by the twenty-three year
old man drove this home. The young man is pale, hectic, nervous, and
believes that "our world depends" on his generation. Locking the door
behind him when he leaves the house, a reflexive action for most
Westerners, merits mentioning by him because it is such a change from
the old Communist China. That a man born in 1985 still does not feel
comfortable in a Westernized China suggests that many Westerners would
not, either. From the "Europeanized" models to the kitschy Maoist
artifacts, many details about modern China felt artificial and
unnatural to me.

[Lucas Morrill]

I agree with Dixie on this one. It seems to me that, while it may seem
that China has moved on from the Cultural revolution, it still hangs
over everything they do. Even though everyone walks around in Western
clothing and the people are much more individualized, I sense an
undertone of the Cultural Revolution. This is incredibly clear when
the author reveals his experience in the past dealing with the
revolution and the destruction it caused. Despite the fact that these
people think they have moved on, the sight of a simple red book can
still bring back horrible memories.

[Lucas Morrill]

To me, this image of China bears very few similarities to China in
Balzac and the Little Chinese Seamstress. The setting has gone from a
quaint countryside to a bustling city. These people, instead of being
worried of being considered a capitalist because of the way they act,
seem to flaunt all their differences. They welcome the western
influence and want to continue to advance and build. A McDonald's is
just as common in modern China as a village headman in Balzac. In my
opinion, China has come very far since its early Communist days.

[btay...@colonial.net]

I think this article really exposes a greatly nuanced issue about
developing or developed countries. This article firsthandedly shows
the author experiencing the massive change of the chinese society. It
hurts him but it also seems as if he is enjoying it as well. This
issue is occurring in many nations, but it is very complicated. On the
one hand we want to see nations develop into very prosperous ones full
of bustling metropolises but on the other we see that these nations at
the same time are somewhat discarding their history as "things of the
past" that are unimportant. I think it is truly important to value the
past but to also push forward, and by looking through the eyes of the
author, it is very obvious that finding this perfect balance is sadly
being proved as possibly not worth the trouble.

[Mark B]

I agree with Lucas that the picture of this new bustling city full
with western influences such as McDonalds and shopping malls is a
stark contrast to the china of the cultural revolution that was
presented as a backwards village that had to use a sewing machine to
fix peoples teeth. i also agree that this article seems to be trying
to flaunt this differences and prove that china has changed.

[Mark B]

i find the balance between old and new very interesting. for example,
the ming dynasty bell tower that is now basically part of traffic. i
was wondering how china tries to preserve its culture while still
progressing as they have and if one needs to win over the other?

On Jan 14, 7:04 pm, Lucas Morrill <lucas.morr...@gmail.com> wrote:

[btay...@colonial.net]

responding to Kyle,

I definitely agree about the generation gap issue. It was very
interesting seing the differences in values and cultural status. It
was funny to see the elders of the cities as if they were ghosts of
the past, like some ancient reminder of what happened years ago. it is
sort of sad if you think about it. The younger generation can really
truly never appreciate what the older people had to survive through
during mao's regime. As the younger generation goes about their daily
lives, we read about how the elders just look on in awe, not even
believing it is worth trying to fit in with them. I also ironically
saw that although the older people are physically in the rougher
situacion in society, the younger people (or at least the person the
author spoke to late in the reading) are the unhappy ones, wishing
that they could calm themselves for a while and not be so hectic. A
funny parallel that I thought I should bring up

[richard...@comcast.net]

I agree with mark about the way China seems to be treating their past
history, i just wonder in the future that these important parts of
their history will vanish. I hope we see more effort in the way China
preserves its history and culture. Like Mark said, China seems to be
rushing forward to the future age, and in my prespective, and liitle
to quickly.

[richard...@comcast.net]

Ben if you think about, we have sort of the same gap here in the US,
just not as large. I have had many stories from elder people about
"good old days," i think its just a normal part of any culture to
experience this generation gap we see in modern china, and its not
really an issue we should be concerning ourselves with. However i do
believe we should be able to understand the older generation and the
way they lived, its very important part of our culture.

[Jon Mayer]

I think one of the major differences between modern China and Japan is
the way in which they have gone about developing their countries.
China has seemed to always (in recent history) to run headlong into
one path, completely determined to achieve a certain goal despite the
costs. This can be seen by the extremist Cultural Revolution under
Mao, and such failed projects as the Great Leap Forward which were
well-intended but poorly thought out. Now, as Dixie was saying, they
have swung all the way in the opposite direction to an extremely
frantic and metropolized society in which the assistants look "blank
and sanitized, as if adapting by instinct to their role".

Japan however has seemed to make carefully thought out plans
surrounding development, as can be seen in the Meiji Restoration - a
development plan for the betterment of Japan that attempted to
radically shift the culture, but through educating its own people by
foreign experts rather than parroting a western society. As a result,
Japan retained many of the cultural ideas from its past such as honor,
shinto worship, and aware. This has allowed Japan to flourish as a
modernized superpower that is culturally aware and has not lost its
sense of identity. China's rapid full-immersion changes have distanced
the population from its past which has possibly caused the country to
be less grounded, and more easily influenced by negative cultural
factors.

[Mark Nimar]

I also find it interesting that while the younger generation mocks
their elders, they themselves are incredibly lost. There is no past
political wisdom the new generation can identify with, no sense of
pride pertaining to the last few decades. The young generation are
left to forge their own path in life, and I can see where that is a
scary endeavor. In this country, we have lots of reasons to celebrate
about the last few decades: civil rights, free love, the Berlin Wall.
The chinese only have misery to draw up on, so I sympathize with their
plight for forging their own path and their zeal for competition.

[Mark Nimar]

I have a question for everyone. It seems that the Chinese may have
more freedom due to the economic shift over the last few years, but is
their freedom worth the cost of sacrificing culture and background?
The new chinese generation seems to have everything they want, but I
find it somewhat depressing that fake "relics" of ancient chinese
history lie in dingy suburbs while people in bustling cities are ruled
by the powerful force of western culture. What do you think?

[Jon Mayer]

In response to what Dixie was saying, I think a sense of levity
surrounding grave events is often necessary as part of the healing
process, and helps a culture to move on. While making Hiroshima into a
"funfair" is too much, in other cases as long as a sense of awareness
surrounding the seriousness of events is maintained, I think jest is
often acceptable and usually desirable. It is clear that the people
Thurbon encounters are still supremely conscious of the terrible
downsides and brutality of the Cultural Revolution, and they have a
sense of respect for those who suffered persecution, such as the
civilians killed and injured at Tiananmen Square. However, making
light of a dictator, for example, often takes away from the power that
the image of the person or images associated with them carry. This
tradition of satire has existed in literature and culture for ages;
one can see it in Charlie Chaplin's "The Great Dictator", Thomas
Paine's "Common Sense", Quentin Tarantino's "Inglourious Basterds".
and many other works ranging from metaphorical literature to pop
culture of the SNL variant. The problem arises when a society moves in
the direction of losing a comprehension of their history, then a
danger rises (of the whole "Those who cannot remember the past are
doomed to repeat it" strain).

Overall I find that satire essentially serves as a cultural coping
mechanism with which to move on from catastrophe and dark times.

[Lucy Fandel]

Mark, I see what you mean in terms of loosing culture and history. I
think very little is worth it if it sacrifices history because it is
irreplaceable. I think the main reason for this abandonment of the
past is the rush to create a Westernized culture, similarly to Japans
Western system adoption. While China is not openly adopting some
Western culture, it does show through in the description by the author
of the newly built parts of Xi'an. I certainly hope that none of
China's history is forgotten by its people because of their hesitance
to share it and make it real for younger generations. It seems like
the people who lived through the cultural revolution and the communist
revolution don't want to talk about it. perhaps out of regret for what
happened.

[Lucy Fandel]

Jon,
I completely agree, especially with your point about repeating the
past. The best thing about history is that it enables us to learn form
our parents' mistakes by studying what happened to them and how they
reacted. History is often ugly, but it is vital to understand it if we
want to progress. While satire and humor in historical re-telling can
be harmful when taking away the seriousness of an issue, I think it is
also necessary in appealing to large audiences who may have other wise
ignored the issue. Of course the problems with that could easily
arise, especially in China, with censorship issues.

[jmcke...@colonial.net]

The most striking thing I noticed was the Westernization. During the
cultural revolution, Western thought seemed to be the first idea under
fire and looking to be purged, and now it has become the centerpiece
of a new China. So maybe China is taking Japan's example and trying to
Westernize, but still trying to hold on to that essential Chinese
character that seperates them from Western society. Regardless, this
is certainly a striking change from the Cultural revolution, but that
does not mean that all of the effects of it have gone away, as freedom
of speech is still questionable.

[Will]

It is very evident that Communism isnt enforced nearly as
much nowadays as it was during the cultural revolution.
In my opinion, I feel like in modern day China, Mao is
looked at as this great guy for no reason. People feel
they need to pay respect to him but at the same time,
might not fully know why. Its kind of like a christian
who only goes to church on Christmas eve

> > mechanism with which to move on from catastrophe and dark times.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Alex Steinroeder]

Responding to Kyle,

I also found the mockery of the Cultural Revolution interesting. I
think it causes major conflict between the pre and post revolution
generations because to have something that you fight for with your
life to be viewed as a joke, can be very troubling. These people who
risked their lives for a cause that they truly believed in are now
being told that it was an insignificant event in China's history and
this must be hard for them to swallow

> > For more info on this book:http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Silk-Road-Colin-Thubron/dp/0061231770/re...- Hide quoted text -

[Alex Steinroeder]

I am somewhat disappointed by the Westernization of China. When I
think of China, I think of culture, architecture, and natural beauty.
I do not think of skyscrapers and McDonalds. I like how Little
Seamstress is "all natural" and free to do whatever she likes. She
doesn't have the technology or the resources to be Westernized, but
she is still full of culture and happy for the most part. Westernizing
China just adds to the belief that material possessions are what make
people happy and this could lead to some trouble down the road when
people have everything they could ever want, yet are still unhappy
with their lives.

On Jan 14, 11:09 pm, Alex Steinroeder <alsteinroed...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> > > For more info on this book:http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Silk-Road-Colin-Thubron/dp/0061231770/re...Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Sloane.Brazina]

Connection to our Japanese study:
"Years before, they [the young Chinese students] would have followed
their teachers in a dutiful crocodile, the infants strung together by
a long cord. Now they jostled and shouted and ran amok." -p.11

This passage reminded me of the video we watched the other night
following Ken, a young Japanese boy. The video stressed the rigor of
the Japanese schooling system in past years (children beginning their
education at the age of 1, classes 6 days/per wk, hours of homework
each night), however, indicated that more recently the government has
begun to relax their requirements, allowing kids to have more time to
themselves. This is still a highly controversial topic. I saw the
same concerns expressed in the Chinese system in "The Capital." The
passage above describes a very similar situation--school once being
very strict and confining, but now beginning to show signs of a more
lax system. Perhaps lessening the academic load on children is
becoming a common theme Eastern Asia.

[Phil Lavely]

In response to Alex,

I agree with the sense that the Cultural Revolution and Mao were being
mocked. I think this is due to the fact that the younger generations
don't understand and can't comprehend what really happened and what
the Cultural Revolution was like. They just know that it did happen.
They don't understand the mass thinking and feelings twoards Mao, nor
will they experience that. Since the Cultural Revolution was in the
past, it is hard to comprehend and really get in tune with what is was
truly like. We can do our best to read, watch, listen and talk about
it, but we will never have the first hand experience. I almost feel
bad for the author because of what he sees, and the disgruntlement he
must feel from people acting this way.

On Jan 14, 11:16 pm, Alex Steinroeder <alsteinroed...@yahoo.com>

> > > > For more info on this book:http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Silk-Road-Colin-Thubron/dp/0061231770/re...quoted text -

[Phil Lavely]

I think it is astounding to see how quickly things have changed. Not
just physically, but mentally as well. Mentally because people just
don't recall what the times used to be like, or think about what
things used to be like. Everyone seems to be in the "here and now"
attitude. Forget about the past, we have the future ahead of us. This
also just reinforced how much China's economy and social system is
booming. Soon than later, they will be the main super power of the
world. When cities like the ones described in the story are created
and transformed as fast as that, a whole country can become an
entirely different country. This seems to be exactly what the author
thought. As he said in one part, it was hard for him to recall what
things used to be like. He had a sephia picture painted, and even with
eyes half closed, recall the past was a losing battle. Things have
changed too much, that the old ways are disappearing forever.

On Jan 14, 11:16 pm, Alex Steinroeder <alsteinroed...@yahoo.com>

> > > > For more info on this book:http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Silk-Road-Colin-Thubron/dp/0061231770/re...quoted text -

[Sloane.Brazina]

In response to Will's post:
I got the same feeling from the reading. It seems in the years
following Mao's death, the people of China have begun to view him more
as a national symbol, instead of honoring his memory as a great
person. It is still quite clear his ideals live on today (people pay
respect to his final resting place by the masses each day, the Little
Red Book is still widely distributed, etc), however, it is interesting
to also note the cultural dissonance in today's China--Mao greatly
enforced the principles of Communism and tried very hard to keep China
free from Western influence, and yet, in today's China we see
McDonalds and bleached out jeans on every street corner--clearly
indications of a strong Western presence. If Mao were able to see
what has become of China today, I would suspect he would be outraged.

[Nick Jessee]

In response to Ben,
I think that for any society to keep pace technologically and
economically, they have to conform. It is unfortunate but as we see
in america today, the past is often replaced with the newest trend,
but it is almost necessary for nations to do so if they want to grow
and develop. If countries remove themselves from the developing
world, like china once did, they fall behind economically so although
it is unfortunate, if china and other countries want to compete with
this endless game, conforming is the only way

[Nick Jessee]

In response to Kyle,

I agree, I also was somewhat surprised when i read that part. Usually
when i think about China i think of respect for elders, etc but to
read differently surprised me in a good way. Although the book
describes this "individuality," as a way of conforming to western
ideals, I look at it as expressing themselves completely without
having to worry about if it is socially acceptable. I also agree with
kyle when he says there seems to be some tension between the two
generations. The current generation seems to be making up for lost
time or at least taking advantage of their new rights.

[oschultz]

Initially while reading this reading on modern China I was mildly
surprised by the major superficial presence in modern China verses the
very humbled people in Balzac whom sacrificed so much in order to
maintain the communist values of their time. Yet when I read this
text, there are clearly capitalist values throughout the entire novel
that have expanded to encompass the whole society verses minor areas.
In an odd way, I kind of like this new system simply because it has
altered our views of our own system and how things around the world
could and should work to certain extents. In Japan, this idea of a new
system is no different, the Japanese have also made major altercations
to their government overtime and also experience their own version of
a capitalist system.

[oschultz]

Will, I agree with your statement to the extent where Mao and
communist ideals have in fact faded and seem to be less essential to
society in modern China. Though I'd have to disagree with your
thoughts on Mao's praise simply because Mao represents more to the
Chinese than just the communist ruler that changed China. Mao was also
a savior to certain extents simply because he was there for the
Chinese people when many weren't and he tried his best to make life
better for his people. While he many not have always been successful,
he did do a lot for them which is probably why his people in modern
times praise him; since he was a nuanced persona in the making of
modern China.

[Maya Allen]

Alex, I agree with what you are saying about "Old China" and I think
about the same traditional characteristics that you do, and I'm also
sad about it. But, I'd have to agree with Nick. As he said, the
country must move on in order to compete globally and progress in the
world since the rest of the world is becoming westernized itself. If
it were to stay the same as it was fifty years ago, now, I think that
they would be so behind compared to other nations. In the old days,
everyone was in the same position as the China for the most part
technologically. But in order to basically survive, they need to
advance like other nations. On a smaller scale, this is just like
Fugui in "To Live." He comes back from being a puppeteer in the war
and sees all the changes in his town and all over the country. He is
astounded by it and is still attached to his old ways. But he learns
to welcome it because of their benefits of the communal kitchens and
the elimination of social class (since he was poor after he lost his
house). He moves on with his life so that he can actually survive
without being jailed for being a reactionist and I think that China,
as a whole, should do the same.

[Maya Allen]

So going off of that idea, I'd have to say that yes it is worth it to
Mark Nimar's question. I agree with Lucy that history must be
remembered and is irreplaceable. I really hope that all the
traditions and culture stay alive as China progresses. I can't
exactly say that the Chinese cultures is worth sacrificing for freedom
because we all must remember the past and learn from them to succeed
in the future. But, at the same time, it can not dwell in the past
because then it can't move forward. It's the idea of impermanence
that everyone needs to accept (aware) so that we can progress.

[sophia]

I thought it was interesting how different China was in To Live and in
Shadow of the Silk Road. In Shadow of the Silk Road the city is very
westernized unlike in To Live. There are big shopping malls,
McDonalds,taxi's, huge highways, and over crowded streets.

[sophia]

I agree with Dixie as well. The older generations know what it is like
to go through suffering while the younger generation was born into a
time where China was thriving. It also seems that even though people
are becoming more westernized they have more individuality then the
people in older generations.

[Peter Cohen]

The article really demonstrates how the pace of change has caught so
many chinese off guard. The entire society has been totally
transformed from Mao's country into its westernized state. This has
benefits and drawbacks. It has brought along many amenities like clean
water, electricity, food, and comfort. These were things that were so
restricted or unavailable in old china. However, the author points out
that he thinks a certain human touch has been lost to chinese society.
He notes that young people appear sanitized by western culture and
relationships were warmer back in the day. However i think his
fondness of the olden days are misplaced, no amount of personal warmth
can make up for the physical suffering of the cultural revolution. But
thats just my take, maybe i'm too materialistic myself.

[Peter Cohen]

Japan and China have both made incredible transformations in their
histories. Japan following WWII with the Meji restoration and such and
China with its more recent embrace of capitalism. However China's
transformation left damage on its people because it was so quick and
so accelerated. China went on capitalism steroids and the problem now
is their past is so poorly understood by the current generation.
Because of the governments censorship of media the true extent of the
past is only known by those who are old enough to remember it. This is
not only dangerous but a shame. China has such a unique and rich
history that deserves to be learned by its youth. THis lack of
perspective is partly what the article bemoans about.

[Dominic Ryder]

A lot of people have raised the point that the china seen in the
reading seems to be leaving behind, and forgetting, it's past,
especially among the younger people. I found it interesting that the
same thing happens to writer, within a very short time. He is watching
the city, and says that the memory of the old Xian is already fading.
If this happens to someone who actually saw the city years ago, albeit
for a short time, how hard must it be for someone of a younger
generation to try and remember the "old times?"

[Dominic Ryder]

I find myself agreeing, a least partially, with the points Maya
raised: the history of a country should not be a deterrent to it
advancing into the future. certainly, history should be taught, and
remembered, but not at the cost of all else. If all a culure does is
relive the past, it will stagnate, and probably will eventually be
forced (unpleasantly) into the present. Similar things happened to
both china and Japan in the past, when they were forced to open their
borders to wester expansion.

[chloe]

I completely agree with Mata on this one, China wouldn't be able to
keep up or survive with the other nations as all, without keeping up
with the pace, not only that but also getting ahead. Although every
culture and nations has their very own way of doing things whether
it's religious or not, they still need to have their minds set "down
to earth" so to speak. without having an open mind to changes
sometimes it really just draws away from your image and then
eventually you fall back from modern civilization and kinda of screws
the cycle of modern day life.

[Jake White]

When reading this I kept on seeing different aspects of the communist
revolution, while at the same time the author was talking about how
"Our society has changed very fast"(17, Thubron). I feel like the
people have evolved, modernized, and adapted to western culture, while
everything surrounding them is stuck in communist china/ trying to
catch up