Iran Blog Assignment - Conservative Values as Social Rebellion?
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Jon Mayer
Nov 27, 2009, 5:19:31 PM11/27/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
I found it incredibly interesting the way that the veil, and all the
connotations it brings of a more conservative, moral, and religious
life were presented as radical in both the movie from Egypt and the
Time article about nuns. What this lead me to wonder is this: in our
modernized, digitized and networked world, have sexual promiscuity/
relaxed views about sexual relations, atheism or secularism, and
materialistic wealth become such mainstream values that to seek a life
of pious chastity and morality has become a form of rebellion for a
youth minority? Is this really going against what is common in our
world today, and is seen as unusual, unexpected and as straying from
the normal path? If so, is it likely that our world will swing back
towards having a more conservative slant, or are liberal ideas going
to become more and more mainstream, and this kind of conservatism
going to become a fringe group, much as liberals once were during the
'50s, '60s, and '70s?
connotations it brings of a more conservative, moral, and religious
life were presented as radical in both the movie from Egypt and the
Time article about nuns. What this lead me to wonder is this: in our
modernized, digitized and networked world, have sexual promiscuity/
relaxed views about sexual relations, atheism or secularism, and
materialistic wealth become such mainstream values that to seek a life
of pious chastity and morality has become a form of rebellion for a
youth minority? Is this really going against what is common in our
world today, and is seen as unusual, unexpected and as straying from
the normal path? If so, is it likely that our world will swing back
towards having a more conservative slant, or are liberal ideas going
to become more and more mainstream, and this kind of conservatism
going to become a fringe group, much as liberals once were during the
'50s, '60s, and '70s?
oschultz
Nov 28, 2009, 2:07:08 PM11/28/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
After I looked at all of the texts that we had on the veil, I find
that the veil isn't more about being a conservative or keeping up you
moral duty or even doing it in the name of your religion. Rather, the
veil just seems to be another form of control that society has set
upon the people in the physical form of a veil. The idea that sexual
promiscuity should be immoral is clearly going against our identity as
sexual creatures. If anything, this tactic of wearing a veil is just
another physical manor of running away from who we really are. Wearing
a veil isn't exactly a new idea that no body has ever thought of; the
major institutions of the world have been forcing their control upon
the people through their clothing reforms for centuries. The idea that
there is such a thing as rebelling by wearing clothing that many other
people also wear isn't really rebelling. In fact, this seems more like
a conformation to the religious institutions and the moral codes that
are set up by small groups of religious leaders and orthodox groups of
women within the society that force their beliefs on people whom are
foolish enough to give them complete trust and control. The fact of
the matter is that you can't rebel if you are conforming which is what
you would be doing if you wore a veil.
that the veil isn't more about being a conservative or keeping up you
moral duty or even doing it in the name of your religion. Rather, the
veil just seems to be another form of control that society has set
upon the people in the physical form of a veil. The idea that sexual
promiscuity should be immoral is clearly going against our identity as
sexual creatures. If anything, this tactic of wearing a veil is just
another physical manor of running away from who we really are. Wearing
a veil isn't exactly a new idea that no body has ever thought of; the
major institutions of the world have been forcing their control upon
the people through their clothing reforms for centuries. The idea that
there is such a thing as rebelling by wearing clothing that many other
people also wear isn't really rebelling. In fact, this seems more like
a conformation to the religious institutions and the moral codes that
are set up by small groups of religious leaders and orthodox groups of
women within the society that force their beliefs on people whom are
foolish enough to give them complete trust and control. The fact of
the matter is that you can't rebel if you are conforming which is what
you would be doing if you wore a veil.
oschultz
Nov 28, 2009, 2:12:35 PM11/28/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
John, I agree with your interest in these beliefs, though I must say
that it would be very unlikely that the conservative slant will likely
take place within our time or the time after that in an immediate
sense. In a manner of sorts, our quest of desire is just a part of who
we are and to put a connotation to say that it is moral or immoral
would only be conforming to the ideas of one institution or another.
The real problem with all of this clothing options is the amount of
control that a person could have in deciding what they want to wear;
not what they should wear or what they are told to wear. People should
have absolute control over what they want to wear.
that it would be very unlikely that the conservative slant will likely
take place within our time or the time after that in an immediate
sense. In a manner of sorts, our quest of desire is just a part of who
we are and to put a connotation to say that it is moral or immoral
would only be conforming to the ideas of one institution or another.
The real problem with all of this clothing options is the amount of
control that a person could have in deciding what they want to wear;
not what they should wear or what they are told to wear. People should
have absolute control over what they want to wear.
Mark Nimar
Nov 28, 2009, 3:46:53 PM11/28/09
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I would say yes to Jon's question. I believe that the rapid changes
and communication of WWII caused the baby boomers to seek momentous
changes, part of which uprooted values of marriage, commitment and
religion. Thus, the following generation has proved itself to be very
lost without these grounding factors, and now our new generation has
been searching for meaning in the face of hyper-sexualized mainstream
culture. I would not say it is so much rebellion, Jon, but it is more
of looking for meaning in one's life in the face of the lack of
commitment shown in the previous generation via divorce and
abandonment of religion. I think this trend shows that people need a
greater force to be a part of, and this new movement is not so much
revolutionary or chiq, but a reaffirmation of this fact as
demonstrated by the previous centuries of religious fidelity.
and communication of WWII caused the baby boomers to seek momentous
changes, part of which uprooted values of marriage, commitment and
religion. Thus, the following generation has proved itself to be very
lost without these grounding factors, and now our new generation has
been searching for meaning in the face of hyper-sexualized mainstream
culture. I would not say it is so much rebellion, Jon, but it is more
of looking for meaning in one's life in the face of the lack of
commitment shown in the previous generation via divorce and
abandonment of religion. I think this trend shows that people need a
greater force to be a part of, and this new movement is not so much
revolutionary or chiq, but a reaffirmation of this fact as
demonstrated by the previous centuries of religious fidelity.
Mark Nimar
Nov 28, 2009, 3:52:19 PM11/28/09
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I don't think the veil is necessarily a symbol of conformity anymore:
it used to be a symbol for female oppression, but now women are
choosing to wear it, I think it is a symbol of feministic choice in a
post-gender role world. In all likelihood, men would rather see women
without a veil. But women choosing the veil in the face of
unpopularity shows that it is their choice and rebellion in a world
where people expect women to work and be a "feminist" in a "hilary
clinton" kind of way- the illusion of independence and freedom. But
women wearing veils today is akin to women burning bras the the '60s;
it is independent, unexpected and totally owned by the instigator. It
is certainly ironic, but nonetheless denotes independence.
it used to be a symbol for female oppression, but now women are
choosing to wear it, I think it is a symbol of feministic choice in a
post-gender role world. In all likelihood, men would rather see women
without a veil. But women choosing the veil in the face of
unpopularity shows that it is their choice and rebellion in a world
where people expect women to work and be a "feminist" in a "hilary
clinton" kind of way- the illusion of independence and freedom. But
women wearing veils today is akin to women burning bras the the '60s;
it is independent, unexpected and totally owned by the instigator. It
is certainly ironic, but nonetheless denotes independence.
Jon Mayer
Nov 29, 2009, 11:44:41 AM11/29/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
While I do agree with Mark's points, I can also see where Oliver is
coming from. After reading Persepolis, and being in the middle of
Reading Lolita in Tehran which is an autobiographical book written by
an Iranian woman, for many the veil is a longstanding form of
oppression. Unfortunately, because it is so tied up in their cultural
identity, and because we are at a point in time where the younger
generations in these countries have not known life without a veil,
many seem to be split between disliking the fact that they are forced
to looks a certain way and can be punished with beatings for changing
that look, and the fact that the veil is all they know and to dress
differently is unimaginable to them. These girls can not picture
themselves without veils, just as most women can not picture
themselves with a buzz cut and a tuxedo or most men can not picture
themselves in an evening gown. Despite this they still understand the
horrid nature of their situation, and in the end become very confused
about their identity as women, or as Muslims, or as members of
whatever country they live in. Undoubtedly some women choose to live
with the veil even when they have the option not to, for ideas of
independence and assertion of their beliefs, while some women despise
that which symbolizes their oppression and abuse. Really it comes
down to the individual person, and as such I do not think that we can
define the veil as symbolic of one idea or another.
coming from. After reading Persepolis, and being in the middle of
Reading Lolita in Tehran which is an autobiographical book written by
an Iranian woman, for many the veil is a longstanding form of
oppression. Unfortunately, because it is so tied up in their cultural
identity, and because we are at a point in time where the younger
generations in these countries have not known life without a veil,
many seem to be split between disliking the fact that they are forced
to looks a certain way and can be punished with beatings for changing
that look, and the fact that the veil is all they know and to dress
differently is unimaginable to them. These girls can not picture
themselves without veils, just as most women can not picture
themselves with a buzz cut and a tuxedo or most men can not picture
themselves in an evening gown. Despite this they still understand the
horrid nature of their situation, and in the end become very confused
about their identity as women, or as Muslims, or as members of
whatever country they live in. Undoubtedly some women choose to live
with the veil even when they have the option not to, for ideas of
independence and assertion of their beliefs, while some women despise
that which symbolizes their oppression and abuse. Really it comes
down to the individual person, and as such I do not think that we can
define the veil as symbolic of one idea or another.
Kyle Calabria
Nov 29, 2009, 12:27:07 PM11/29/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
John, I think rebellion has always been a trait of the youth. I think
you are right, that in our modern world so focused on sex, money,
power, and drugs, the normal rebellious activities of the past, have
almost become a normal way of life. I don't however think it will lead
to large numbers of youth seeking lives of pious, chastity and
morality. In fact, it seems our culture continues to the farthest end
away from a conservative way of life. Almost every time I turned on
the t.v., click open the internet, or turn on the radio, I hear and
see things, more grotesque, sexually explicit, and inappropriate than
the last time. It is certainly refreshing to see these young women
choosing lives of purity, however it is in such small numbers I don't
think it will have a large impact on the rest of the population. So to
answer your question I don't think our society will swing back to a
more conservative state like the 50's-70's. Having said that I
certainly thing our society would benefit from a more conservative
lifestyle.
you are right, that in our modern world so focused on sex, money,
power, and drugs, the normal rebellious activities of the past, have
almost become a normal way of life. I don't however think it will lead
to large numbers of youth seeking lives of pious, chastity and
morality. In fact, it seems our culture continues to the farthest end
away from a conservative way of life. Almost every time I turned on
the t.v., click open the internet, or turn on the radio, I hear and
see things, more grotesque, sexually explicit, and inappropriate than
the last time. It is certainly refreshing to see these young women
choosing lives of purity, however it is in such small numbers I don't
think it will have a large impact on the rest of the population. So to
answer your question I don't think our society will swing back to a
more conservative state like the 50's-70's. Having said that I
certainly thing our society would benefit from a more conservative
lifestyle.
Kyle Calabria
Nov 29, 2009, 12:31:47 PM11/29/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
Mark, I think all the points you have raised towards why women choose
to wear the veils are valid contributors to their decision, however I
don't think they are not the major reason. In my opinion in a
environment where women have little to no outside influence on wearing
the veil and the choice is entirely there own, I believe those who
choose to wear it, are making a statement of their identity. They are
choosing to live a pure religious life, and they are proud of it. It
is no easy feat, and the veil to them, symbolizes their pure way of
life.
to wear the veils are valid contributors to their decision, however I
don't think they are not the major reason. In my opinion in a
environment where women have little to no outside influence on wearing
the veil and the choice is entirely there own, I believe those who
choose to wear it, are making a statement of their identity. They are
choosing to live a pure religious life, and they are proud of it. It
is no easy feat, and the veil to them, symbolizes their pure way of
life.
Maya Allen
Nov 29, 2009, 1:31:51 PM11/29/09
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Jon and Oliver, I agree with both of you when you say that the veil is
some sort of barrier that women hide behind to prevent the very sexual
promiscuity that is natural of human beings. It's understandable that
avoiding those situations where the men are tempted is a part of how
they were raised and a part of their culture, but it's true that they
are somewhat uphold the idea of oppression against women. Although I
agree that they are conforming to the ways of the government, I do
think that they are rebelling against the West (as the young woman
said in the video). I just find it strange that the younger
generations are now wearing the veils again because it seems that they
would be doing the opposite and trying to become more Westernized and
go against the old ways.
some sort of barrier that women hide behind to prevent the very sexual
promiscuity that is natural of human beings. It's understandable that
avoiding those situations where the men are tempted is a part of how
they were raised and a part of their culture, but it's true that they
are somewhat uphold the idea of oppression against women. Although I
agree that they are conforming to the ways of the government, I do
think that they are rebelling against the West (as the young woman
said in the video). I just find it strange that the younger
generations are now wearing the veils again because it seems that they
would be doing the opposite and trying to become more Westernized and
go against the old ways.
Maya Allen
Nov 29, 2009, 1:46:20 PM11/29/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
Kyle, I also agree with what you are saying. In the movie, there was
that woman who did not wear a veil who said that she was very
impressed with women who chose to wear those veils, scarves and cover
nearly every inch of their bodies. She said that the veils
represented a woman's independence and it took a lot of courage to
withstand all of those layers and have to "cover up all of their
beauty" to keep the old ways in effect as well as proving that women
are individuals who can make their own decisions.
that woman who did not wear a veil who said that she was very
impressed with women who chose to wear those veils, scarves and cover
nearly every inch of their bodies. She said that the veils
represented a woman's independence and it took a lot of courage to
withstand all of those layers and have to "cover up all of their
beauty" to keep the old ways in effect as well as proving that women
are individuals who can make their own decisions.
Sloane.Brazina
Nov 29, 2009, 11:13:16 PM11/29/09
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I'm astonished the veil trend has taken off in recent years,
especially among today's young women who feel extreme pressure,
especially from the media, to dress provocatively. I would imagine it
takes a great deal of courage to defy the fashion "norms" and trade in
tube tops for headdresses. The veil makes a public statement just as
loud as green liberty spikes or holey fishnet stockings.
I'm not surprised modern technology has played such a huge role in
recruiting new blood for the convents; services such as email and
blogs provides young women with the comfort of strength in numbers,
empowering those with meeker personalities to take a stand and proudly
express their religious beliefs. The internet creates a comfortable
network for new and potential Sisters. I applaud the dedication and
bravery of these strong women.
especially among today's young women who feel extreme pressure,
especially from the media, to dress provocatively. I would imagine it
takes a great deal of courage to defy the fashion "norms" and trade in
tube tops for headdresses. The veil makes a public statement just as
loud as green liberty spikes or holey fishnet stockings.
I'm not surprised modern technology has played such a huge role in
recruiting new blood for the convents; services such as email and
blogs provides young women with the comfort of strength in numbers,
empowering those with meeker personalities to take a stand and proudly
express their religious beliefs. The internet creates a comfortable
network for new and potential Sisters. I applaud the dedication and
bravery of these strong women.
Sloane.Brazina
Nov 29, 2009, 11:25:04 PM11/29/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
I response to the arguments above:
I don't think the veils necessarily indicate a sweeping radical change
in the female dress code or are intended to provoke extreme, earth-
shattering controversy. In fact, I think it's tedious to spend so
much time dwelling on the "secret meaning" behind the veil. The way I
see it, the veil indicates only one thing: it is representative of a
woman's passion for God and quest for a peaceful existence on Earth.
Personally, I think it's disrespectful to associate all sorts of
labels with wearing the veil. While it is tempting to make
speculations about why the sudden reappearance of the veil, I would
avoid doing so to honor the wearers. The fact of the matter is, women
are starting to wear veils again, women who personally feel a strong
connection with God. I don't see any point in further investigating
the matter.
I don't think the veils necessarily indicate a sweeping radical change
in the female dress code or are intended to provoke extreme, earth-
shattering controversy. In fact, I think it's tedious to spend so
much time dwelling on the "secret meaning" behind the veil. The way I
see it, the veil indicates only one thing: it is representative of a
woman's passion for God and quest for a peaceful existence on Earth.
Personally, I think it's disrespectful to associate all sorts of
labels with wearing the veil. While it is tempting to make
speculations about why the sudden reappearance of the veil, I would
avoid doing so to honor the wearers. The fact of the matter is, women
are starting to wear veils again, women who personally feel a strong
connection with God. I don't see any point in further investigating
the matter.
Sloane.Brazina
Nov 29, 2009, 11:26:03 PM11/29/09
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Alex Steinroeder
Nov 30, 2009, 6:33:26 PM11/30/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
I think that people are making too big of deal our of the new trend of
wearing veils. It is not like the majority of women in the world are
wearing veils, and this won't cause everyone to wear them. The women
choosing to wear the veils have the right to do so, just as women in
our culture have the right to wear bikinis at the beach or turtleneck
sweaters with long pants. People should have the choice to wear what
they want unless it is offensive to a certain group, such as wearing a
symbol of hatred towards someone else. I am not muslim, but I have no
problem with someone who wears a veil and it does not offend me in any
way so I don't see why the women who choose to wear the veils should
be looked down upon. Women should not be forced to wear a veil if they
do not choose to do so, but if they believe that it is a way to get
closer to God then they should wear one.
On Nov 29, 11:26 pm, "Sloane.Brazina" <sloane.braz...@gmail.com>
wrote:
wearing veils. It is not like the majority of women in the world are
wearing veils, and this won't cause everyone to wear them. The women
choosing to wear the veils have the right to do so, just as women in
our culture have the right to wear bikinis at the beach or turtleneck
sweaters with long pants. People should have the choice to wear what
they want unless it is offensive to a certain group, such as wearing a
symbol of hatred towards someone else. I am not muslim, but I have no
problem with someone who wears a veil and it does not offend me in any
way so I don't see why the women who choose to wear the veils should
be looked down upon. Women should not be forced to wear a veil if they
do not choose to do so, but if they believe that it is a way to get
closer to God then they should wear one.
On Nov 29, 11:26 pm, "Sloane.Brazina" <sloane.braz...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Will
Nov 30, 2009, 6:37:21 PM11/30/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
I agree with Sloane because I feel that the veil is not a certain look
to provoke a "radical change".
It is a personal choice that in whatever meaning or way, represents
something that the female believes in.
It is just like if someone was to wear a cross around their neck, or a
yamaka on their head.
They are not asking for attention, but wear it to symbolize a belief
that is apart of them.
Like Kyle said though, the view of society is getting more and more
"grotesque". So considering
this causes females to want more attention, i'm not suprised that the
wearing of the veil
has'nt sky rocketed in the world.
to provoke a "radical change".
It is a personal choice that in whatever meaning or way, represents
something that the female believes in.
It is just like if someone was to wear a cross around their neck, or a
yamaka on their head.
They are not asking for attention, but wear it to symbolize a belief
that is apart of them.
Like Kyle said though, the view of society is getting more and more
"grotesque". So considering
this causes females to want more attention, i'm not suprised that the
wearing of the veil
has'nt sky rocketed in the world.
Will
Nov 30, 2009, 6:47:05 PM11/30/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
I definately agree with what Kyle said about why women probably
wouldnt choose to wear a veil in our society today, but I dont
believe
that our society would be better if it was more conservative. Although
most of the women wear veils because of tradition, there are also
women who wear it because they feel it is right. If a society was
based on one decision for one reason, then there would be no
progress made.
wouldnt choose to wear a veil in our society today, but I dont
believe
that our society would be better if it was more conservative. Although
most of the women wear veils because of tradition, there are also
women who wear it because they feel it is right. If a society was
based on one decision for one reason, then there would be no
progress made.
Lucy Fandel
Nov 30, 2009, 8:13:41 PM11/30/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
I agree with both Maya and Kyle in that these women associate
themselves with a certain identity by wearing the veil. They use it as
a way of showing that they are proud of who they are. What I think is
a little more difficult to see by just watching a movie or reading
articles is that this style of dress is for many Muslim women, a norm.
We might take a lot of care in determining how we are going to dress
but we don't really think about why we decide that or why it's
expected or normal in our society. For these women, I think that
wearing the veil is sometimes more of a cultural norm as well as a
lifestyle choice or statement.
themselves with a certain identity by wearing the veil. They use it as
a way of showing that they are proud of who they are. What I think is
a little more difficult to see by just watching a movie or reading
articles is that this style of dress is for many Muslim women, a norm.
We might take a lot of care in determining how we are going to dress
but we don't really think about why we decide that or why it's
expected or normal in our society. For these women, I think that
wearing the veil is sometimes more of a cultural norm as well as a
lifestyle choice or statement.
Lucy Fandel
Nov 30, 2009, 8:23:19 PM11/30/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
While this doesn't apply to anyone's specific statements I think it is
relevant and not to be forgotten.
The women in the movie we saw were either wearing the veil by
independent choice, or because their society told them it was the
right thing to do. What was not brought up was they type of veiling in
Iran during Marjane's childhood where the government required all
women to wear the veil. While I realize that this is not the case in
many Muslim countries, it is one of the things that scares me the
most. By forcing women to wear the veil the government is stripping
them of their identities and this way of dress is no longer a
statement of confidence and identity but rather a symbol of their
forced submission and lack of independence.
relevant and not to be forgotten.
The women in the movie we saw were either wearing the veil by
independent choice, or because their society told them it was the
right thing to do. What was not brought up was they type of veiling in
Iran during Marjane's childhood where the government required all
women to wear the veil. While I realize that this is not the case in
many Muslim countries, it is one of the things that scares me the
most. By forcing women to wear the veil the government is stripping
them of their identities and this way of dress is no longer a
statement of confidence and identity but rather a symbol of their
forced submission and lack of independence.
sophia
Nov 30, 2009, 8:57:19 PM11/30/09
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Kyle i agree with you. I do not believe that our society will become
more conservative like the 50's 60's and 70's. Right now most of the
youth is far from it. I'm not sure whether becoming more conservative
would be a good or bad thing. If society is able to become more
conservative while progressing then i suppose it would be a positive
change. I also believe that it is important that the women
independently chose to wear the veil instead of living in a society
where the government forces them too. It should be the women's choice
because if it is by law then the veil does not symbolize anything
important to them.
more conservative like the 50's 60's and 70's. Right now most of the
youth is far from it. I'm not sure whether becoming more conservative
would be a good or bad thing. If society is able to become more
conservative while progressing then i suppose it would be a positive
change. I also believe that it is important that the women
independently chose to wear the veil instead of living in a society
where the government forces them too. It should be the women's choice
because if it is by law then the veil does not symbolize anything
important to them.
Dominic Ryder
Nov 30, 2009, 10:18:24 PM11/30/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
of all the above arguments, I find myself mast in agreement with
Sloane. If women wish to wear veils as a demonstration of their
culture or faith, or to come closer to god, that is their choice. if
they feel that this would be the right choice for them, I aplaud their
courage in mking that choice. I also however, do not see much point in
trying to dig a deeper meaning out of the whole thing. if women choose
the veil, that is their personal choice, nothing more.
Sloane. If women wish to wear veils as a demonstration of their
culture or faith, or to come closer to god, that is their choice. if
they feel that this would be the right choice for them, I aplaud their
courage in mking that choice. I also however, do not see much point in
trying to dig a deeper meaning out of the whole thing. if women choose
the veil, that is their personal choice, nothing more.
Nick Jessee
Nov 30, 2009, 10:21:17 PM11/30/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
John, going off of your first comment, I find your ideas interesting
and even possible, but I personally see our society, generally the
youth, is headed in a different direction. Usually youth rebels
towards the views of their elders, in the United States at least. The
way they dress, act, and their all around attitude tends to conflict
with their parents. Because our parents, generally, were born in the
50's 60's 70's, it is natural for them to hold conservative views that
were popular during that time. But in todays world, it is almost
accepted to be rebellious and even provocative. Like Kyle said, sex,
drugs, and other explicit themes take over the media. In relationship
towards veils, If i remember correctly, it was said that the mothers
of this new wave were the ones who first abandoned the veils. So in
ways, wearing this veil, staying conservative and "modest" is a
rebellion towards their parents.
and even possible, but I personally see our society, generally the
youth, is headed in a different direction. Usually youth rebels
towards the views of their elders, in the United States at least. The
way they dress, act, and their all around attitude tends to conflict
with their parents. Because our parents, generally, were born in the
50's 60's 70's, it is natural for them to hold conservative views that
were popular during that time. But in todays world, it is almost
accepted to be rebellious and even provocative. Like Kyle said, sex,
drugs, and other explicit themes take over the media. In relationship
towards veils, If i remember correctly, it was said that the mothers
of this new wave were the ones who first abandoned the veils. So in
ways, wearing this veil, staying conservative and "modest" is a
rebellion towards their parents.
Nick Jessee
Nov 30, 2009, 10:27:52 PM11/30/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
Addressing Sloane's second post, I find myself disagreeing. Like Dom
said in class, the movie referred to the veil/dress as a
"conservative" or "modest" dress, making little if any religious
connection, which makes me lean towards the idea of it being more of a
movement for the women in that area. The veil possibly represents
their conservative views but also their respect for themselves and for
their religion. There will always be a religious connection with the
veils, but, at least in the way the movie depicted it, it seemed to be
more of a movement. Women are envious towards their courage for
wearing this and it represents much more than just loyalty to their
religion.
said in class, the movie referred to the veil/dress as a
"conservative" or "modest" dress, making little if any religious
connection, which makes me lean towards the idea of it being more of a
movement for the women in that area. The veil possibly represents
their conservative views but also their respect for themselves and for
their religion. There will always be a religious connection with the
veils, but, at least in the way the movie depicted it, it seemed to be
more of a movement. Women are envious towards their courage for
wearing this and it represents much more than just loyalty to their
religion.
Phil Lavely
Nov 30, 2009, 10:55:19 PM11/30/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
I agree with a fair amount that has been said. I think each person
wear's a veil for a specific reason. Some of those reasons will be
different, but the underlying tone is identity. By doing something in
a certain way, you showcase how you act and what you think, and you
can be identified by yourself and others with a certain group. Some
may be doing this to make themselves feel better about their religion
and prove up upright and dedicated they are. It's not only on a
personal level though, it is courageous to be different or do
something risky. All of these woman are making a bold statement about
themselves, but them at risk for potential issues. They find it more
important to wear something that may put them at risk then the bad
situation that could possibly arise. There is passion in what and why
they do it, and this solidifies who they want to be.
wear's a veil for a specific reason. Some of those reasons will be
different, but the underlying tone is identity. By doing something in
a certain way, you showcase how you act and what you think, and you
can be identified by yourself and others with a certain group. Some
may be doing this to make themselves feel better about their religion
and prove up upright and dedicated they are. It's not only on a
personal level though, it is courageous to be different or do
something risky. All of these woman are making a bold statement about
themselves, but them at risk for potential issues. They find it more
important to wear something that may put them at risk then the bad
situation that could possibly arise. There is passion in what and why
they do it, and this solidifies who they want to be.
jmcke...@colonial.net
Nov 30, 2009, 11:03:50 PM11/30/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
I would certainly draw a distinction between morality and chastity, as
morality doesn't need to be mutually exclusive with "sexual
promiscuity". On the question: I think society on many levels has
almost made it equally damning to wear conservative dress in some
contries as it is to wear more revealing dress in traditionally
conservative countries. The difference between the two is minor, and I
wouldn't call either morally superior to the other, but both cases of
imposing societal norms on people to the point where they cannot feel
connected to society without conforming is negative on both ends of
the spectrum.
morality doesn't need to be mutually exclusive with "sexual
promiscuity". On the question: I think society on many levels has
almost made it equally damning to wear conservative dress in some
contries as it is to wear more revealing dress in traditionally
conservative countries. The difference between the two is minor, and I
wouldn't call either morally superior to the other, but both cases of
imposing societal norms on people to the point where they cannot feel
connected to society without conforming is negative on both ends of
the spectrum.
Mark B
Dec 1, 2009, 6:50:05 AM12/1/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
I agree with Sloane and also feel that the veil seems to be a personal
choice more so than a movement of some sort. its not like the women
who wear veils seem to be indicating that not wearing one makes you a
bad person rather that it is just a personal choice that they have
made in order for them to feel closer to god. by putting to much
emphasis on who and who isnt wearing one we can get caught up in the
hysteria of it and lose sight of the fact that it is largely a
personal thing. I do find it interesting why women choose the veil
and if its all for religious purposes.
choice more so than a movement of some sort. its not like the women
who wear veils seem to be indicating that not wearing one makes you a
bad person rather that it is just a personal choice that they have
made in order for them to feel closer to god. by putting to much
emphasis on who and who isnt wearing one we can get caught up in the
hysteria of it and lose sight of the fact that it is largely a
personal thing. I do find it interesting why women choose the veil
and if its all for religious purposes.
Mark B
Dec 1, 2009, 6:54:29 AM12/1/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
I also agree with jimmy that the veil doesnt make moralit and chastiy
the same. just because you wear a veil doesnt mean you have a higher
standard of marals than others. however i dont believe that the wears
of the veil are attepting to convy this message. i think that its
largely a personal choice. if they wish to wear the veil it is for
thier own reasons weather that is to be more religous or to feel safer
in thier enviorment.
On Nov 30, 11:03 pm, "jmckenn...@colonial.net"
the same. just because you wear a veil doesnt mean you have a higher
standard of marals than others. however i dont believe that the wears
of the veil are attepting to convy this message. i think that its
largely a personal choice. if they wish to wear the veil it is for
thier own reasons weather that is to be more religous or to feel safer
in thier enviorment.
On Nov 30, 11:03 pm, "jmckenn...@colonial.net"
Mark B
Dec 1, 2009, 6:58:43 AM12/1/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
i agree with jimmy that wearing a veil doesn't imply morality. and
that Chasity and morality are two separate issues. however io would
argue that the veil inst necessarily only a comment on Chasity its
more of a personal choice by the wear and not a comment on "sexual
promiscuity". some women wear it because they feel they need to in
order to be religious other wear it for other reasons. the veil is a
personal choice not necessarily a comment on society.
that Chasity and morality are two separate issues. however io would
argue that the veil inst necessarily only a comment on Chasity its
more of a personal choice by the wear and not a comment on "sexual
promiscuity". some women wear it because they feel they need to in
order to be religious other wear it for other reasons. the veil is a
personal choice not necessarily a comment on society.
Lucas Morrill
Dec 1, 2009, 9:32:51 AM12/1/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
I think the veil is less a revolution, and more a sign of the times.
The older women saw the veil as a symbol of the past not the
progressive ideas of the west. They chose not to wear the veil because
they did not want to be tied down to the past. The younger generation
doesn't wear the veil because they don't have the same pro-west point
of view that their parents have. They don't have those allegiances so
they wear the veil.
The older women saw the veil as a symbol of the past not the
progressive ideas of the west. They chose not to wear the veil because
they did not want to be tied down to the past. The younger generation
doesn't wear the veil because they don't have the same pro-west point
of view that their parents have. They don't have those allegiances so
they wear the veil.
chloe
Dec 1, 2009, 12:50:39 PM12/1/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
Woman chose to wear whatever they want, it isn't necessarily a
decision based on morals or men; it's a personal choice that people
make for their style and taste and shouldn't have anything to do with
sexuality. Wearing or not wearing a veil doesn't say anything about
how a woman feels about their self respect or if they want men to look
at them. If men feel as though they have to eye woman that don't wear
veils then that would be the men's decision and has nothing to do with
woman's beliefs. It goes two ways, and both are based on culture and
personal opinions.
decision based on morals or men; it's a personal choice that people
make for their style and taste and shouldn't have anything to do with
sexuality. Wearing or not wearing a veil doesn't say anything about
how a woman feels about their self respect or if they want men to look
at them. If men feel as though they have to eye woman that don't wear
veils then that would be the men's decision and has nothing to do with
woman's beliefs. It goes two ways, and both are based on culture and
personal opinions.
btay...@colonial.net
Dec 1, 2009, 4:05:26 PM12/1/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
Although this is a late entry, I think that it was really strange what
the women were doing in Iran. It was almost ironic because we as
westerners see the veils as oppressive clothing that do not allow
women to show their selves. But although I see this custom of women
choosing to wear their veils as strange, I can somewhat understand
why they would do such a thing. One obvious reason is pride in their
religion, and they obviously have a right to that. but also, i think
it is very interesting that the women there want the men to not be
overly intrigued by the looks of the women so that they will be
distracted. The "hanging apple in front of person" was an interesting
metaphor. But, all in all, the film was very interesting and a very
new spin on the purpose of the veil that I had previously not
understood.
btay...@colonial.net
Dec 1, 2009, 4:09:42 PM12/1/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
responding to, and agreeing with jimmy, I think that the way the
people veiw the way people wear clothes in iran is a little skewed.
First of all, I agree that the people who wear these veils are very
devout, but the people who don't are not necessarily bad people, and
should not be looked down upon. I think with the choice of wearing a
veil being more largely the one people take, some social prejudices
will spring forward, as it has in some other countries already.
Although it makes sense that women should have the choice, i think the
veil will most likely push prejudice and judgement more than it is
worth
people veiw the way people wear clothes in iran is a little skewed.
First of all, I agree that the people who wear these veils are very
devout, but the people who don't are not necessarily bad people, and
should not be looked down upon. I think with the choice of wearing a
veil being more largely the one people take, some social prejudices
will spring forward, as it has in some other countries already.
Although it makes sense that women should have the choice, i think the
veil will most likely push prejudice and judgement more than it is
worth
Dixie Morrison
Dec 2, 2009, 8:10:34 AM12/2/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
I have never understood why the veil, in countries where it is not
required (which I find a violation of personal rights), is such a
contentious symbol. As we learned, it started out as a relic of Middle
Eastern fashion, when women wore it as a status symbol, like pearl
necklaces or designer jeans in the West. When countries such as France
try to ban the veil, they are trampling women's expression as much as
the Iranian theocracy.
On the other hand, I had to disagree with Navila when she cited some
of her reasons for wearing the veil. As we learned, the Koran does not
explicitly state that a woman must wear a veil, and "modest dress" can
be interpreted any number of ways. The analogy about offering fruit to
hungry people and then snatching it away was clever, but missed the
point, as far as I can tell--in a perfect, lawful society, a woman
should be allowed to walk down the street in a bikini without being
accosted (although even the United States has a way to go in this
matter). A provocatively dressed woman is not "asking for it." Wearing
the veil out of personal choice is admirable when one considers all
the opposing social pressures, but when you make those kinds of
justifications, you miss the point.
required (which I find a violation of personal rights), is such a
contentious symbol. As we learned, it started out as a relic of Middle
Eastern fashion, when women wore it as a status symbol, like pearl
necklaces or designer jeans in the West. When countries such as France
try to ban the veil, they are trampling women's expression as much as
the Iranian theocracy.
On the other hand, I had to disagree with Navila when she cited some
of her reasons for wearing the veil. As we learned, the Koran does not
explicitly state that a woman must wear a veil, and "modest dress" can
be interpreted any number of ways. The analogy about offering fruit to
hungry people and then snatching it away was clever, but missed the
point, as far as I can tell--in a perfect, lawful society, a woman
should be allowed to walk down the street in a bikini without being
accosted (although even the United States has a way to go in this
matter). A provocatively dressed woman is not "asking for it." Wearing
the veil out of personal choice is admirable when one considers all
the opposing social pressures, but when you make those kinds of
justifications, you miss the point.
Dixie Morrison
Dec 2, 2009, 8:18:01 AM12/2/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
I agree with Mark--how is wearing the veil, which admittedly was
originally a symbol of oppression, any different from a Western woman
wearing makeup or high heels? Both grooming habits are a pain, and men
usually don't have to do them, but I never think, "I am subjugating my
strength and giving in to the patriarchy" when I put on lip gloss.
There are some die-hard "feminists" who would say that, but as long as
mascara is not mandated, they should pick their battles. Similarly,
the Islamic veil might be seen by some as a step backwards, but as
long as the women who wear it are not forced into it, why should
anyone complain (of course, in countries where it IS required, women
are completely within their rights to protest)? In the West, there are
some women--I know some of them--who just want to get married and have
children after college, or even high school. This path is not for me,
but it would be an insult to their intelligence and freedom of mind to
criticize their life choices. Muslim veil-wearing women know their
minds as well as Westerners. We should let them express their
femininity and their faith as they see fit.
originally a symbol of oppression, any different from a Western woman
wearing makeup or high heels? Both grooming habits are a pain, and men
usually don't have to do them, but I never think, "I am subjugating my
strength and giving in to the patriarchy" when I put on lip gloss.
There are some die-hard "feminists" who would say that, but as long as
mascara is not mandated, they should pick their battles. Similarly,
the Islamic veil might be seen by some as a step backwards, but as
long as the women who wear it are not forced into it, why should
anyone complain (of course, in countries where it IS required, women
are completely within their rights to protest)? In the West, there are
some women--I know some of them--who just want to get married and have
children after college, or even high school. This path is not for me,
but it would be an insult to their intelligence and freedom of mind to
criticize their life choices. Muslim veil-wearing women know their
minds as well as Westerners. We should let them express their
femininity and their faith as they see fit.
Jake White
Dec 8, 2009, 11:02:49 AM12/8/09
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
After reading and watching much about the veil I have also come to the
conclusion that for the most part the veil is something that women in
middle eastern countries prefer to wear. Before reading and studying
the veil I was under the impression that the veil was something that
was forced upon women, and in some cases it is, but I think that the
majority of women that wear the veil are doing it in order to show
independence and gain respect among people in their village, not just
to fulfill their religious obligations.
conclusion that for the most part the veil is something that women in
middle eastern countries prefer to wear. Before reading and studying
the veil I was under the impression that the veil was something that
was forced upon women, and in some cases it is, but I think that the
majority of women that wear the veil are doing it in order to show
independence and gain respect among people in their village, not just
to fulfill their religious obligations.
janzer
Jan 22, 2010, 12:51:14 AM1/22/10
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
I think that the veil is very interesting, because of the different
pressures on women to conform. On one hand, there is the external
pressure to wear a veil of some sort, because every other woman seems
to wear one. Conversely, there is the internal pressure every woman
feels to be an individual, and to protect their own sense of personal
pride. This is an internal struggle that can be viewed as similar to
some of the other cases we have seen in world lit. In a sense, the
veil causes somewhat of a nervous condition, in that women in these
countries are torn between a traditional belief and their own personal
identity. Just as people can be torn between two conflicting ethnic
identities, these women find themselves juggling two different
ideologies.
pressures on women to conform. On one hand, there is the external
pressure to wear a veil of some sort, because every other woman seems
to wear one. Conversely, there is the internal pressure every woman
feels to be an individual, and to protect their own sense of personal
pride. This is an internal struggle that can be viewed as similar to
some of the other cases we have seen in world lit. In a sense, the
veil causes somewhat of a nervous condition, in that women in these
countries are torn between a traditional belief and their own personal
identity. Just as people can be torn between two conflicting ethnic
identities, these women find themselves juggling two different
ideologies.
janzer
Jan 22, 2010, 12:58:56 AM1/22/10
to World Literature G Block 2009-2010
Dixie brings up a very interesting point, dealing with the issue of
personal pride and identity. She touches upon the idea that women have
a right to choose, and these choices are often symbolic of a greater
struggle. I agree with the connection to western women, feeling as
though they have to appeal to the accepted ideal of what women should
look like. I think the right to choose is one that we take for granted
all too often, and one that is very easy to overlook. It is very
interesting how there is a difficult balance between trying to appeal
to what is considered "normal" while still respecting one's personal
beliefs. This is not only felt by people in the West, or in the Middle
East, but everywhere. Even if people are not making what they believe
to be a conscious decision whether or not to conform, people do seem
to have a choice as to what they wear. The conscious decisions that
people do make are affected by the subconscious "needs" to conform.
The thought process there is much deeper than it may appear, which is
very interesting.
personal pride and identity. She touches upon the idea that women have
a right to choose, and these choices are often symbolic of a greater
struggle. I agree with the connection to western women, feeling as
though they have to appeal to the accepted ideal of what women should
look like. I think the right to choose is one that we take for granted
all too often, and one that is very easy to overlook. It is very
interesting how there is a difficult balance between trying to appeal
to what is considered "normal" while still respecting one's personal
beliefs. This is not only felt by people in the West, or in the Middle
East, but everywhere. Even if people are not making what they believe
to be a conscious decision whether or not to conform, people do seem
to have a choice as to what they wear. The conscious decisions that
people do make are affected by the subconscious "needs" to conform.
The thought process there is much deeper than it may appear, which is
very interesting.
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