Article on neoliberal triumphalism

[David Canning]

http://marxistupdate.blogspot.ca/2011/05/neoliberal-triumphalism-and-capitalist.html

That someone with the agenda of Bernie Sanders is getting attention in the United States gives me a lot of hope. Only five years ago, he would have been dismissed even by self-styled leftists for being too radical. Maybe people are finally waking up from the anarcho-capitalist nightmare and realizing that austerity is a scam that only benefits the very rich.

[Donald J Donaker (Don)]

 

No thanks to Fightback  The Marxist Voice of Labor and Youth.

 

A program that is loaded with reforms, palliatives that serve to extend the existence of capitalism.

 

As the organizer of the original WIIU put it, "Reform if you will preserve."

 

Might you, as I suggested to Andrew, avail yourself of the program and principles of the original WIIU.

[David Canning]

I don't disagree with you on this. Keynes saved capitalism through reform. I am not holding up Bernie Sanders as a saviour, particularly as I don't even live in the United States. What I'm saying is that it's very refreshing to see any political candidate run on a pro-union platform. Surely we can agree that ideas are not always either completely correct or completely wrong, and that there are degrees of both? You may disagree, but I believe that in the real world, where labourers are losing their homes, and not that of theory, anti-market reforms made right now will benefit workers the world over more than allowing the anarcho-capitalist project to continue unabated until there is a spontaneous eruption of a newly Marxist working class. I see a rising tide of awareness that austerity and free-market economics are a failure, but no indication that the average worker believes that the abolition of capitalism is the solution. The hostility towards socialism expressed by my peers is actually what drove me to seek out a union that does not temper its socialism with anarchism (currently, as you are doubtless aware, experiencing a surge in popularity because it does not reject capitalism and encourages individualism).

Most young people who are just entering the workforce are convinced that staying within the capitalist system, but raising the minimum wage (their primary concern, since McJobs are largely all that is left to them in today's "postindustrial" society), is the only correction our system needs. This is the audience that the likes of Bernie Sanders are trying to get through to, an audience that was born at the height of the neoliberal era, has been indoctrinated with the belief that there is no alternative to neoliberalism, and is totally ignorant of other possibilities. Again, for most of my peers, this is their first exposure to any remotely socialist ideas. Better that they are exposed to a socialism intended to preserve capitalism than to remain completely ignorant of socialism.

[Donald J Donaker (Don)]

 

The application of robotic production, as I have already stated, is accelerating exponentially. Foxconn, a leading company operating sweat shop labor, is on the move to replace cheap labor:

 

  http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/biz/archives/2015/06/18/2003620939

 

Korean Hyundai and Beijing Motors have combined to launch one of the leading robotic auto manufacturing plants in the world. 

 

I have done extensive research on the subject. If you are unable to locate up to date info on the subject, I can provide it for you, if you wish. The capitalists are on a ferocious quest, that only an economic melt down, or a war of devastating destruction can halt. Or the life providing potential of Earth breaks down if the raving insanity, to secure and protect massive ownership of wealth, isn't stopped.

[David Canning]

That's an interesting article, but it doesn't specify what kind of robots these are. Being used to sell coffee machines? I'm afraid I don't really understand. I would greatly appreciate some clarification. I do not doubt at all that you've thoroughly researched this.

The difference between our points of view is that I see automation not as the cause of workers' plight, but as the inevitable byproduct of the capitalist method of production. Capitalists worship at the altar of profit, they are uninterested in whether they steal the fruits of the labour of people or robots. Assembly line production is all about efficiency, therefore the automation of production is an inevitable consequence of the system. At present, machines that employ robots still require human operators. Rather than attacking robots, I think we should worry more about the ideas (and ideologues) that create the conditions we find ourselves in as workers. Worrying about robots strikes me as focusing on the symptoms rather than the underlying disease.

[Donald J Donaker (Don)]

 

The point is the broad spectrum of robotic application. You stopped short with Pepper and skipped Hyundai Beijing Motors. I could load up a string of applications between those two cases but you seem to be mired down with your convictions. Shall we wait for the inevitable that is looming around the corner?

 

From here on, I shall not hinder you with the latest events.

[Scott Wallace]

I think we should give him critical support and try to breathe some revolutionary fire into the Sanders campaign.  Perhaps Bernie's supporters can move beyond the reformist platform and begin to help build a revolutionary movement.

On Friday, August 28, 2015 12:38 AM, 'David Canning' via Workers' International Industrial Union <workers-internation...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

http://marxistupdate.blogspot.ca/2011/05/neoliberal-triumphalism-and-capitalist.html

That someone with the agenda of Bernie Sanders is getting attention in the United States gives me a lot of hope. Only five years ago, he would have been dismissed even by self-styled leftists for being too radical. Maybe people are finally waking up from the anarcho-capitalist nightmare and realizing that austerity is a scam that only benefits the very rich.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Workers' International Industrial Union" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to workers-international-ind...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Matthew Andrews]

Robots cannot be exploited in the Marxist sense. They do not come from
nature and do not have rights. They are commodities. People have
rights because we are alive and do not exist to be commodified.

The massive shift toward automation has already changed the nature of
capitalist production. Developments in robotics is the next step in
this trend which will further weaken the power of the working class due
to our diminished relationship to production.

The inescapable conclusion I think we must take (from this among many
other lessons from history) is that union organizing and the general
strike will not be primary vehicle of a revolution. Production is still
central to the social order, but most of us will be challenging it from
positions of marginalization and exclusion.



~Matt



On Fri, 2015-08-28 at 11:07 -0700, 'David Canning' via Workers'

[Donald J Donaker (Don)]

 

Are you inferring that I am, "Worrying about robots...," that I lose sleep thinking about them?

 

When Galileo and Copernicus attempted to impress upon the "flat earth" nut cases that the earth
revolves around the sun, where they losing sleep doing that?

 

I, by far, do not consider myself on the level of those 2, but I do attempt to apply Marx's materialist
conception of history to understanding what is going on in society. Especially the evolution of
the productive tool.

On Friday, August 28, 2015 at 1:07:50 PM UTC-5, David Canning wrote:

[Donald J Donaker (Don)]

 

When I simply presented references stating facts on robotic production, emphasizing that my purpose was to share information I found on the internet, some responses implied that I was submitting my opinion on the matter, and that it should be the major import towards WIIU's course of action and direction. Sharing of information, only, certainly does not enter into that sphere. Matt, on the subject, has presented an opinion on the matter, without offering substantiating reference. If he has any, I am interested in the source as I am compiling information on the subject. That is not to support an argument that I never intended nor proposed.

 

If anyone has substantial and definitive information on the subject, I would appreciate receiving it. As I stated more than once, I abide by the will of the  majority, but simply acknowledging pertinent information, by me or anyone else, does not impose on that realm.

 

I do have an aversion to superficial dismissal of relevant information. That was central to, not my argument, but simply my defense that the information I provided has relevance. If anyone is not interested in the information, be a  good sport and say it straight out, without disputing it.

[Andrew Gunderman]

As I have tried to point out before, these little robots do not orchestrate capital flows. Workers per usual have no problem with capital, they 'e far removed from it's doings, until financial crisis strikes. When you lose your job at Hyundai or the Pepper factory, that is when you brandish all your old adages about evils of capitalism. Right now the B.L.S. statistics don't reflect widespread unemployment due to the application of robotics in manufacturing. 
 
The far worse specter that haunts us all is a worldwide propensity towards deflation. The  national economies are mired in debt, and must inflate their currency in order to manage it. If this doesn't work in the long run we can expect to be circling the drain.
 
Without robotics,  workers in Greece and Spain are taking pay cuts. With or without them, labor costs have to be cut in this type of cycle.
 

---

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 12:14:51 -0700
From: ddon...@comcast.net
To: workers-internation...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Article on neoliberal triumphalism

 

The point is the broad spectrum of robotic application. You stopped short with Pepper and skipped Hyundai Beijing Motors. I could load up a string of applications between those two cases but you seem to be mired down with your convictions. Shall we wait for the inevitable that is looming around the corner?

 

From here on, I shall not hinder you with the latest events.

On Friday, August 28, 2015 at 1:07:50 PM UTC-5, David Canning wrote:

That's an interesting article, but it doesn't specify what kind of robots these are. Being used to sell coffee machines? I'm afraid I don't really understand. I would greatly appreciate some clarification. I do not doubt at all that you've thoroughly researched this.The difference between our points of view is that I see automation not as the cause of workers' plight, but as the inevitable byproduct of the capitalist method of production. Capitalists worship at the altar of profit, they are uninterested in whether they steal the fruits of the labour of people or robots. Assembly line production is all about efficiency, therefore the automation of production is an inevitable consequence of the system. At present, machines that employ robots still require human operators. Rather than attacking robots, I think we should worry more about the ideas (and ideologues) that create the conditions we find ourselves in as workers. Worrying about robots strikes me as focusing on the symptoms rather than the underlying disease.

[Donald J Donaker (Don)]

 

"As I have tried to point out before, these little robots do not orchestrate capital flows."--Andrew

Does ("these little robots") those 2 story high ore trucks that drive themselves, hauling 240 tons, "orchestrate capital flows"!, or do the capitalists that own them?

I have suggested 2 different times, within less than 2 weeks, to review the fundamental concepts that the original WIIU is based upon. There is no indication that anyone has done such.  For the main part, it is based upon Marx's law of value and its corollary surplus value. A printed copy of any B.L.S. is aptly suitable to be chucked into "file 13."

The original WIIU was based on Marxism-Deleonism.  I am in contact with several persons in agreement with that. Considering the general comments posted on this forum, I would not suggest to any of them to consider the WIIU, in its current state. When Carl Miller launched the revival of WIIU, he invited me to join, which I did. I convinced 3 others to come on board, none of them are in agreement with the current state of WIIU. As to others that I referred to, I have been waiting for positive developments within WIIU before suggesting their consideration. So far that has not been forthcoming.

If Marxism-Deleonism is too gritty to swallow, then it is high time to rewrite the scrip for WIIU, if not to mislead potential members or sympathizers. If that is done, WIIU can be assured that I will not be tangled in its hair any longer.

 

On Tuesday, September 1, 2015 at 6:05:33 PM UTC-5, Andrew Gunderman wrote:

As I have tried to point out before, these little robots do not orchestrate capital flows. Workers per usual have no problem with capital, they 'e far removed from it's doings, until financial crisis strikes. When you lose your job at Hyundai or the Pepper factory, that is when you brandish all your old adages about evils of capitalism. Right now the B.L.S. statistics don't reflect widespread unemployment due to the application of robotics in manufacturing. 
 
The far worse specter that haunts us all is a worldwide propensity towards deflation. The  national economies are mired in debt, and must inflate their currency in order to manage it. If this doesn't work in the long run we can expect to be circling the drain.
 
Without robotics,  workers in Greece and Spain are taking pay cuts. With or without them, labor costs have to be cut in this type of cycle.
 

---

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 12:14:51 -0700
From: ddon...@comcast.net

To: workers-international-industrial-union@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Article on neoliberal triumphalism

 

The point is the broad spectrum of robotic application. You stopped short with Pepper and skipped Hyundai Beijing Motors. I could load up a string of applications between those two cases but you seem to be mired down with your convictions. Shall we wait for the inevitable that is looming around the corner?

 

From here on, I shall not hinder you with the latest events.

On Friday, August 28, 2015 at 1:07:50 PM UTC-5, David Canning wrote:

That's an interesting article, but it doesn't specify what kind of robots these are. Being used to sell coffee machines? I'm afraid I don't really understand. I would greatly appreciate some clarification. I do not doubt at all that you've thoroughly researched this.The difference between our points of view is that I see automation not as the cause of workers' plight, but as the inevitable byproduct of the capitalist method of production. Capitalists worship at the altar of profit, they are uninterested in whether they steal the fruits of the labour of people or robots. Assembly line production is all about efficiency, therefore the automation of production is an inevitable consequence of the system. At present, machines that employ robots still require human operators. Rather than attacking robots, I think we should worry more about the ideas (and ideologues) that create the conditions we find ourselves in as workers. Worrying about robots strikes me as focusing on the symptoms rather than the underlying disease.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Workers' International Industrial Union" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to workers-international-industrial-union+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Andrew Gunderman]

A printed copy of any B.L.S. is aptly suitable to be chucked into "file 13."

Do what you will. My across-street neighbor just got a job driving big rigs around Florida and he makes over twice what his previous job gave.

---

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 21:22:36 -0700
From: ddon...@comcast.net
To: workers-internation...@googlegroups.com

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to workers-international-ind...@googlegroups.com.

[Donald J Donaker (Don)]

 

I had a brother who ended up a millionaire but died before retirement.  You want to smack me with another individual success story another individual out of millions who are not, I can smack one back.

 

Why don't you grow up.

On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 4:57:43 PM UTC-5, Andrew Gunderman wrote:

A printed copy of any B.L.S. is aptly suitable to be chucked into "file 13."

Do what you will. My across-street neighbor just got a job driving big rigs around Florida and he makes over twice what his previous job gave.

---

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 21:22:36 -0700
From: ddon...@comcast.net

[Scott Wallace]

So Don, what do you think the current state of the WIIU is? This is a forum in which anyone, member of the WIIU or not can say whatever they want.  That doesn't reflect on the character of the WIIU.  Is there something in the website you disagree with?  That is what defines the WIIU.  If you have nothing better to do than to bad mouth the WIIU, which is based on the very principles you claim to profess, then why do you come around here?  I realy don't understand it.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to workers-international-ind...@googlegroups.com.

[Donald J Donaker (Don)]

 

I get the message, it is clear to me now "....anyone....can say whatever they want." In my old age it seems I have become a slow learner. Having no interest in discussion where anyone can say whatever they want, I hereby resign myself to be an observer. Another mistake I made was thinking that discussion on the forum was directed at the course of action and activity WIIU should take.

Before I do that, I challenge you to show where I "....have nothing to do than to bad mouth the WIIU" Those "little robots"! have nothing to do with WIIU.  Nigel, the renegade, snookered me; he will be the last one.

 

Since I have nothing to contribute, it stands to reason that I should remain an observer. Case closed.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to workers-international-industrial-union+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Scott Wallace]

I was referring to this, Don.  What the hell is this? Is this what a revolutionary Marxist says about the WIIU? What current state are you talking about?

"The original WIIU was based on Marxism-Deleonism.  I am in contact with several persons in agreement with that. Considering the general comments posted on this forum, I would not suggest to any of them to consider the WIIU, in its current state. When Carl Miller launched the revival of WIIU, he invited me to join, which I did. I convinced 3 others to come on board, none of them are in agreement with the current state of WIIU. As to others that I referred to, I have been waiting for positive developments within WIIU before suggesting their consideration. So far that has not been forthcoming.

If Marxism-Deleonism is too gritty to swallow, then it is high time to rewrite the scrip for WIIU, if not to mislead potential members or sympathizers. If that is done, WIIU can be assured that I will not be tangled in its hair any longer."

[Andrew Gunderman]

Who is Nigel the Renegade? What did he do to Don?
 
The robots came, and we don't have widespread unemployment. To that Don did say, robots are a Capitalist's weapon at the working class: their way to drive down hard-bargaining unions, and to place downward pressure on unit labor rates in general. But wages are falling in places where robots aren't utilized, too. It's part and parcel of a world-wide deflationary cycle when austerity policies are employed. We don't have that much in the U.S.
 
The robots are a niggling matter compared to finance capitalism's tendency towards crises. Suppose for example deflation takes effect. The value of money thereby increases over time, so capitalists put a hold on any capital investment plans. A 0-growth feedback cycle takes hold bringing even more down pressure on wages. To take some profit out of a losing situation, capitalists begin selling off assets and we are finished.
 
Now content that at long last factories have stopped churning out robots, Don is happy.
 
     
 

---

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 20:50:21 -0700
From: ddon...@comcast.net
To: workers-internation...@googlegroups.com
CC: scotch...@yahoo.com

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to workers-international-ind...@googlegroups.com.

[Scott Wallace]

You know, Andrew, if you didn't always play the devil's advocate, and play around with your cryptic subtexts, Don probably wouldn't get so upset, and maybe we could actually make some plans to work together to plan how to organize and educate the working class.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to workers-international-ind...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Andrew Gunderman]

The better ideas have of course to be challenged and debated in the revolutionary spirit of the late-sixties radicals and positive solutions emerge.

---

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 23:02:12 +0000
From: workers-internation...@googlegroups.com
To: workers-internation...@googlegroups.com

[Andrew Gunderman]

Alex said,
 
 
I’ve seen the union-management relationship first hand in two plants. I used to work at Wentzville before coming to Bedford.
 
The union and the company are hugging, we get a lot of high 5s, we see them out to dinner together. It’s right in our face.
 
Management is in control here because the UAW says ‘they can do that.’ I even had a shirt made that says ‘they can do that.’
 
 
Jordan,
 
 
We see the union out golfing with the bosses, and that’s a problem. They are way, way, way too close. I’m out there working every day and the
 
workers are tired of this. They are flat-out sick of this. Any time you have an interaction between the union and management, it’s an act. It’s all played-
out and presented to you to make you feel like you got something good, like they saved your job.
 
I like the idea of the rank-and-file committee because I’d rather have nine out of ten people on the floor go in there and represent me instead of the
union. I’d rather have my buddy beside me on the line represent me than the UAW.
 
 
Alex described the UAW’s role in policing the workers in the Bedford GM plant,
 
 
After a couple of months of work here, my hands were so swollen that I couldn’t drive. I had carpal tunnel in both hands, and prior to that I hadn’t been to the doctor in 10 years for anything other than a cold. You know what my union told me when I told them-they handed me a lawyer’s card. Seriously. There is no hope for them. I was so upset that nobody could help me.
 
We have temporary workers and flex people that they are working like dogs: they work them 12 hours a day 7 days a week nonstop and the union people say that’s OK?
 
There’s a young guy in here-25 year old temp. He went up to a union committeeman and told him about how tough it was working long shifts and asked if anything could be done about it. The committeeman just said yeah, well get used to it, turned around and walked away...
 
The UAW is corrupt in the plant and it goes up to the international. I mean, who does the UAW think they are -the mob? The more I’m in it the more I see it.
 
 
Jordan expressed hostility to the recent UAW dues increase of 25%, which was forced onto the membership in 2014.
 

---

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 20:50:21 -0700
From: ddon...@comcast.net
To: workers-internation...@googlegroups.com
CC: scotch...@yahoo.com

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to workers-international-ind...@googlegroups.com.

[Byron Danelius]

Scott:

 

Andrew is NOT playing devil’s advocate.  He apparently believes this stuff.  Claiming he has any intentions of supporting working class interests is being a dreamer on an LSD trip.

 

Byron

[Andrew Gunderman]

My answer to that is from the nine points to get political issues across,
 
 
4. Be a subject matter expert on your issue, and brief them accordingly.
5. Be prepared to defend your view. 
 
 
You forgot these?
 

---

From: bdd...@q.com

To: workers-internation...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Article on neoliberal triumphalism

Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 12:43:30 -0500